REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

450 posts IS a worse crime than wanting to kill us .

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Friday, May 22, 2009 04:59
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Friday, April 24, 2009 10:18 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
So, to specifically address rappys' point: You're setting the bar very low if the only thing you can claim is that we're "not as bad as them."


Actually...thats kinda where the bar needs to be. Torturing a terrorist for information is NOT as bad as causing or attempting to cause the death of innocent people.

Seems our options include being better then they are...or being worse with death as the deciding factor. If avoiding death requires torture...we torture and are still better then them. The day may come when we have to be worse then them...and we all know that we can be worse then them very easily. We have vast fields and storehouses of 'worse' we could unleash at a moments notice but for our compassion and mercy.

A little water and discomfort is a mild price to pay for the continued existance of an entire people. If we were them...they would cease to exist in the fire of American fury. But we're not them...so instead the get water and mercy. Such is life.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 10:25 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Finn, if you want to have a REAL discussion on the issue, why don't you answer the question I posed to Rappy?

First of all, you weren’t talking to me. Secondly, you’ve not made a post to me that wasn't trolling, which has been your reputation lately. Would you like to deflect that argument to my spelling again? You’ve already demonstrated to me how little your interested in discussion, so you shouldn’t be surprised if people seek out other members of the board when they're interested in discussion.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, April 24, 2009 10:36 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:

A little water and discomfort is a mild price to pay for the continued existance of an entire people.

So what are you saying here, that we saved the Human race because of waterboarding...?

I don't know, it seems unlikely.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, April 24, 2009 10:39 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
the way you cry about it

AU has been mean to me, btw. Can I get a hug?


The adolescent Chrisisall

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Friday, April 24, 2009 10:42 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Finn, if you want to have a REAL discussion on the issue, why don't you answer the question I posed to Rappy?

First of all, you weren’t talking to me. Secondly, you’ve not made a post to me that wasn't trolling, which has been your reputation lately. Would you like to deflect that argument to my spelling again? You’ve already demonstrated to me how little your interested in discussion, so you shouldn’t be surprised if people seek out other members of the board when they're interested in discussion.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero



So now you're trolling me then, eh? What in this post of yours is NOT trollish?

BTW, you misused "your" when you probably meant "you're". Hey, you asked...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 10:46 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
So now you're trolling me then, eh? What in this post of yours is NOT trollish?

BTW, you misused "your" when you probably meant "you're". Hey, you asked...

And now you know why I'm not interested, next time don't act so disappointed.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, April 24, 2009 10:53 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

BTW, you misused "your" when you probably meant "you're".

You just couldn't resist...



The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, April 24, 2009 11:24 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
So now you're trolling me then, eh? What in this post of yours is NOT trollish?

BTW, you misused "your" when you probably meant "you're". Hey, you asked...

And now you know why I'm not interested, next time don't act so disappointed.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero



Well, now I know that you're a troll, but I already knew that. And now I know that you're a coward, but I knew that already, too. And now I know that you're an idiot, but again that's nothing I didn't already know.

So I've learned nothing knew from this "discussion" with you. Guess that's proof that you are indeed a troll! Thanks for proving me right, yet again.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 11:27 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

BTW, you misused "your" when you probably meant "you're".

You just couldn't resist...



The laughing Chrisisall



Nope, I really couldn't.

He just makes it too easy.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 11:51 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Finn, you said several things which I needed clarified. I specifically quoted them and you have not addressed them.

You said:
"I suspect that there is a set of circumstances in which even the hardest of resolve will crack."

I asked:
"Basically Finn, you're willing to "crack" people, and in the context that you expressed... by any mean necessary. Boiling oil, if need be. Right?... Where do YOU draw the line?"

Apparently you weren't very clear because AgentR asked the same question:
"And what are those circumstances?"

You replied indirectly: "Coercion is most effective when it is used to cause exhaustion, I suspect." but also followed it with "It seems to me that inflicting injury is more likely to result in shock then diminished resolve. I think I've been pretty clear in drawing a line between extracting confessions and interrogation."

Then you said that the difference was a matter of "intent". The implication of all of that is proper intent (intent to get the truth) will lead to proper action (no injury) because of PRACTICAL limitations.

However, those practical limitations seem to me to be very porous. I can think of all kinds of ways in which a person will not necessarily be injured, or can be revived (which, BTW they do during waterboarding)... no matter WHAT the "intent" of the interrogator.

So I feel that my question STILL really hasn't been answered. You talk about intent, and practical limitations (which IMHO don't exist), and circumstances which will crack to most hardened resolve, and non-injurious techniques (which BTW can include electric shock and sleep depreviation) and I'm STILL left with the same question, which I believe is a fair one: IS THERE A LIMIT BEYOND WHICH YOU WILL NOT GO, FOR MORAL REASONS?

And the answer is: I still don't know, and I don't think anybody does.

---------------------------------
They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 12:36 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
AgentR ?

I find it very telling that none of em even addresses my arguments despite the fact that I know something about this kinda thing and happened to provide hard evidence of our own admissions we did in fact torture folks to death.

They just go on arguing with everyone else in the thread and dance around ever having to own up to the facts of the matter - which is rather typical when authoritarian types run up against something that refutes their entire worldview.

It's like it don't even exist, because they cannot fit it into the artificial reality they have constructed for themselves.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it



Frem, I think Finn is afraid you're going to dehumanize and demonize him because he's in favor of dehumanizing and demonizing others, which he considers "Gestapo tactics" when someone other than him or the intel goons are doing it...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 12:38 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


FINN: I have probably asked provocatively and possibly even unfairly. I was taking your statements and extrapolating them to various circustances to see what stuck. It's a time-honored logical technique... What if in THIS case? what about THAT? But if it helps, I'll ask differently... without attempting to extrapolate your wording to other contexts. But IMHO you still haven't answered the essential question, and I'm wondering if you ever will.

So, without any extraolation on my part: What are the circumstances that you can imagine which will crack the most hardened resolve? Are you willing to use them in the context of interrogations? Assuming that such issues as shock and injury can be gotten around, what limitations would YOU put on interrogations, and why?

---------------------------------
They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 12:44 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


And BTW, our torture went beyond interrogation to include EXTRACTING CONFESSIONS, according to some:
Quote:

Landay also quoted a former intelligence official, who said, "There were two reasons why these interrogations were so persistent, and why extreme methods were used."

"The main one is that everyone was worried about some kind of follow-up attack (after 9/11). But for most of 2002 and into 2003, Cheney and Rumsfeld, especially, were also demanding proof of the links between al Qaida and Iraq that (former Iraqi exile leader Ahmed) Chalabi and others had told them were there."


According to security sources, that is why the two detainees were waterboarded an total of 266 times. The techniques sought and authorized by the Bush adminstration were those used by the Chinese Communists during the Korean War to EXTRACT FALSE CONFESSIONS.
---------------------------------
They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 1:23 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:

A little water and discomfort is a mild price to pay for the continued existance of an entire people. If we were them...they would cease to exist in the fire of American fury. But we're not them...so instead the get water and mercy. Such is life.

H



A little water and discomfort.

WHY would they confess anything over "a little water and discomfort"? Fear of death, physical panic and extreme exhaustion are not "discomfort". It may not leave marks, but it's torture, alright, and shouldn't be pretended to be better than other forms of torture.

To me "We torture them but we don't dismember them"... doesn't deserve the term mercy.

And you're equating an entire people with a network of terrorists. Basing your moral highground on a hypothesis of how they would be worse than what you're proposing. That's kind of sad, as value systems go. If all it takes is being just slightly better than a network of terrorists.. well, why on earth did folks ever bother with those human rights they drafted up some 200 years ago? Fools.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 1:35 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


FINN

"So, without any extrapolation on my part: What are the circumstances that you can imagine which will crack the most hardened resolve? Are you willing to use them in the context of interrogations? Assuming that such issues as shock and injury can be gotten around, what limitations would YOU put on interrogations, and why?"



---------------------------------
They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 2:00 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Finn, if you won't speak for yourself people will naturally wonder why. And they will infer all kinds of thoughts and motivations to you that might not belong.

---------------------------------
They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 3:20 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Apparently, torture is friggin' hilarious to media conservatives

For most rational human beings, even the notion of torture is bone-chilling. Media conservatives, on the other hand, apparently find it hilarious. Following President Obama's release of four previously classified Justice Department memos that had authorized the use of harsh interrogation techniques on detainees -- including "stress positions," "cramped confinement," "sleep deprivation," and "the waterboard" -- numerous conservatives in the media have downplayed, mocked, and jeered the notion that those practices constitute torture. Hard to believe? Here are just a few of the many examples:

Conservative leader and radio host Rush Limbaugh asserted, "If you look at what we are calling torture, you have to laugh," said that "if somebody can be water-tortured six times a day, then it isn't torture," and claimed that "appeasers" have "water[ed] down" definition of torture like "NOW gang" did with definition of domestic violence.

Radio host G. Gordon Liddy compared the proposed technique of placing a detainee who "appears to have a fear of insects" in "a cramped confinement box with an insect" to his appearance on a game show, stating, "I went through worse on Fear Factor."

Fox News contributor Mike Huckabee mocked the same technique: "Look, I've been in some hotels where there were more bugs than these guys faced." Huckabee went on to state that under the Obama administration, "We're going to talk to them, we're going to have a nice conversation, we're going to invite them down for some tea and crumpets."

Fox & Friends co-host Gretchen Carlson replied, "That usually works with your kids, too, right? When they're in trouble for something, they just tell you everything."

To which her co-host Steve Doocy joked, "Mr. Moussaoui, it's time for you over in the time-out chair."

To buttress his support of torture, Fox News' resident conspiracy-theorist-in-chief Glenn Beck aired a clip from Fox's 24.

When they weren't bowled over with laughter, many media conservatives were serving up the dubious claim that harsh interrogation techniques used on Khalid Shaikh Mohammed "stopped an attack on the Library Tower in Los Angeles." The claim conflicts with the chronology of events put forth on multiple occasions by the Bush administration. Indeed, the Bush administration said that the Library Tower attack was thwarted in February 2002 -- more than a year before Mohammed was captured in March 2003. Facts be damned, Fox News and others pressed forward with the story repeatedly. (But missed the bigger story that time travel had been perfected.) Typifying the use of this story, Sean Hannity claimed this week that enhanced interrogation techniques "saved an American city, Los Angeles."

The hysterical nature of coverage surrounding the torture issue by conservatives didn't reach everyone in the media. This week, Fox News' Shepard Smith stood out among his colleagues at the conservative news network when he said of torture, "We are staring into an abyss and it's staring back at us, and we don't do it. We are America."


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 3:58 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Facts be damned, Fox News and others pressed forward with the story repeatedly.


I believe this is the story that some posters here have been trying to foist off as genuine, also. This is apparently the attack that Hero is convinced was going to end us as a nation and a people, for which he's heartily glad that we tortured people - er, I mean we subjected them to a little moisture and discomfort.

Because THEY get off on torture, murder, and sadism, they project those same sicknesses on us, accusing us of wanting America to be attacked, of wanting thousands of Americans killed. When they're rounded up and tortured for being right-wing extremists, I won't cheer and I won't laugh. I also won't be terribly surprised.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Saturday, April 25, 2009 12:43 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


People are mesmerized by the "ticking time bomb" scenario... a scenario which has never occurred. And how do I know that???? Because the previous administration has NEVER claimed that torture "saved lives". Never. And if it had, they would be trumpeting that info from the rooftops.

OTOH, we have a real expert telling us that torture DOESN'T WORK. Not Scarborough, and Hannity, and Limbaugh and the rest of the clueless ideology-addled bullshit artists, but an ex CIA officer Robert Baer of the middle East, one who has overseen many torture sessions and has himself been tortured (by Iran, fingernail-pulling and all.) What he says, unequivocally, is that the only thing that you get out of torture is whatever the victim thinks you want to hear.

and if HIS bona-fides aren't hard-core enough, the Israeli Mossad has also given up on torture. Why? Because it's too unreliable. Too hard, actually, to separate the wheat from the chaff.


Apparently, in REAL-LIFE, the "24" scenario just doesn't exist. That's why when people say they can imagine scenarios about how torture MIGHT work (the same as how Saddam MIGHT have active WMD production, even as his nation was being intrusively probed by the CIA and others) it's all pretty much mental masturbation.

---------------------------------
They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.

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Saturday, April 25, 2009 4:08 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn, if you won't speak for yourself people will naturally wonder why. And they will infer all kinds of thoughts and motivations to you that might not belong.

Really? You’re really threatening me with accusing me of saying or meaning things I didn’t say and couldn't possibly have meant? After spending the entire thread doing just that to everything I did say? Really. Really?

As it turns out Signym I had a swing dance last night and I’m hosting a swing workshop today as well as a dance tonight. On Sunday I’ll be doing the same thing. I don’t know when I’ll have time to get back to this. Next time, if you actually care that much, try disposing the Gestapo tactic earlier, like before I have to call you on it would be nice.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Saturday, April 25, 2009 6:44 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

I won't cheer and I won't laugh. I also won't be terribly surprised.

I will, but quietly, as I prepare a shank for the other end of the political spectrum to slam in their spine while they're busy waterboarding the same assholes who lowered the bar and enabled it.

Neither political "side" wants to end the abuses, really - all they are truly concerned about is whos hand holds the leash of the monstrous and untrustworthy alphabet soup goons that commit them.

The only thing *I* am thinkin when I look at either end of that leash today, is why Old Yeller had to die.

Satsujin no Ken - Katsujin no Ken
The Sword that Takes Life, the Sword that Gives Life

http://www.vachss.com/guest_dispatches/ellis_amdur.html
"Am I a moral failure in that I did not kill him?"

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, April 25, 2009 8:56 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Conservative leader and radio host Rush Limbaugh asserted, "If you look at what we are calling torture, you have to laugh," said that "if somebody can be water-tortured six times a day, then it isn't torture," and claimed that "appeasers" have "water[ed] down" definition of torture like "NOW gang" did with definition of domestic violence.

Radio host G. Gordon Liddy compared the proposed technique of placing a detainee who "appears to have a fear of insects" in "a cramped confinement box with an insect" to his appearance on a game show, stating, "I went through worse on Fear Factor."

Fox News contributor Mike Huckabee mocked the same technique: "Look, I've been in some hotels where there were more bugs than these guys faced." Huckabee went on to state that under the Obama administration, "We're going to talk to them, we're going to have a nice conversation, we're going to invite them down for some tea and crumpets."

Fox & Friends co-host Gretchen Carlson replied, "That usually works with your kids, too, right? When they're in trouble for something, they just tell you everything."

To which her co-host Steve Doocy joked, "Mr. Moussaoui, it's time for you over in the time-out chair."

To buttress his support of torture, Fox News' resident conspiracy-theorist-in-chief Glenn Beck aired a clip from Fox's 24.

When they weren't bowled over with laughter, many media conservatives were serving up the dubious claim that harsh interrogation techniques used on Khalid Shaikh Mohammed "stopped an attack on the Library Tower in Los Angeles." The claim conflicts with the chronology of events put forth on multiple occasions by the Bush administration. Indeed, the Bush administration said that the Library Tower attack was thwarted in February 2002 -- more than a year before Mohammed was captured in March 2003. Facts be damned, Fox News and others pressed forward with the story repeatedly. (But missed the bigger story that time travel had been perfected.) Typifying the use of this story, Sean Hannity claimed this week that enhanced interrogation techniques "saved an American city, Los Angeles."


The utter absurdity of their position takes my breath away. If the torture we've put these people through is so laughably mild HOW THE HELL IS IT SUPPOSED TO FORCE A CONFESSION OUT OF ANYONE? 'Cause, y'know, that was the point, supposedly--to get the detainees to crack. The word hypocrisy seems too weak to cover their utter contempt for reason to further their agenda. I've no doubt that if the shoe were on the other foot, and the Libs were defending torture, the Cons would be making a huge stink about what a waste of taxpayer money these woosy-torture programs are!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, April 25, 2009 9:08 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I see we have control freaks, dare I say AUTHORITARIANS here who want to play 'change the thread title ' because they simply can't have others who disagree with them.

Classic.

The Left will demonize anyone, any position they can think of, no matter what it is, just to sway public opinion and get more and more political power. The Left, more than any other, is PARTY FIRST, America SUCKS.

Its the tactic of picking the ' low hanging fruit'. Gen up a phony issue, like accusing the Bush admin of TORTURE, where there is no torture, and then let the chaos ensue. Meanwhile, .....





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Saturday, April 25, 2009 9:18 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Auraptor, If I was forced to feel that I was drowning, I'm confident I would feel tortured. This is not a political statement.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, April 25, 2009 9:49 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


A -

And some might say that being locked in a cell and confined is torture to. Just where does the line get drawn ? These folks are NOT kidding around here, they actually want to , plan and carry out acts of pure terrorism, and I think it's rather important that we stop them from succeeding. I'm not condoning " at any cost ", per se, but we must to acknowledge that sometimes it takes a combination of methods to get these guys to talk.

As I understand 3 were waterboarded, and that practice stopped back in '05. What the Libs are bitching and whining about was abandoned over 4 YEARS ago. And it worked, too. I fail to see where there is ANY legitimate issue here.




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Saturday, April 25, 2009 9:53 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


The Left will demonize anyone

You know, for a long time now, every time you go on about "the Left...", I hear it in that voice of the guy from Temple Of Doom- you know the one- "..it seems THE BRITISH blah blah blah..." LOL.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, April 25, 2009 9:56 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I am glad the acts of torture we committed are being discussed. 4 years ago is as near as 4 years from now, and if we don't settle the issue on the past, we'll be seeing it again in the future.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, April 25, 2009 10:13 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


But discussing torture when there isn't torture.....


what are we talking about again ?

Quote:


You know, for a long time now, every time you go on about "the Left...", I hear it in that voice of the guy from Temple Of Doom- you know the one- "..it seems THE BRITISH blah blah blah..." LOL.



You'd prefer I say 'Freedom hating, commie pinko, pansy assed America hater ' ? I know, means the same thing, but ' Lib ' is so much more concise.

Figures you'd quote Temple of Doom. That's only the 2nd worst Indy film, thanks to the lastest piece of Go Se.




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Saturday, April 25, 2009 10:47 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
The Left will demonize anyone, any position they can think of, no matter what it is, just to sway public opinion and get more and more political power. The Left, more than any other, is PARTY FIRST, America SUCKS.



And on the other side, we have the right, who spent the last eight years shouting (in unison) "We are NOT fascists!" - and who now come down firmly in favor of torture. If there was ever any doubt that right-wingers are indeed fascists, one only has to listen to them endorse and champion torture to be convinced of their true nature. Hold a man over the volcano, and you'll see the real man - the one being held, and the one holding him over that volcano.

Quote:

Its the tactic of picking the ' low hanging fruit'. Gen up a phony issue, like accusing the Bush admin of TORTURE, where there is no torture, and then let the chaos ensue. Meanwhile, .....
\




You mean a phony issue like flag-burning, gay marriage,
"freedom fries", or faux phoned-in patriotism? Those kinds of phony issues?

Meanwhile, that "low-hanging fruit" you refer to... do you prefer to hang them by their thumbs, or by their balls?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Saturday, April 25, 2009 10:50 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


The Left will demonize anyone

You know, for a long time now, every time you go on about "the Left...", I hear it in that voice of the guy from Temple Of Doom- you know the one- "..it seems THE BRITISH blah blah blah..." LOL.

The laughing Chrisisall



Funny... I hear it in the voice of Gabby Johnson from "Blazing Saddles".

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Saturday, April 25, 2009 10:53 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"But discussing torture when there isn't torture..... what are we talking about again ?"

Hello,

I think there would have been more intense scrutiny of the event years ago when it happened, had we had the full details of the event at that time.

The fullness of time has been needed to reveal the fullness of actions taken, and so it is now, in the fullness of time, that this is being discussed.

Even now, Cheney is encouraging the declassification of additional torture documents, which will help broaden knowledge for this critical discussion.

This is the very hour, Auraptor. This is the time when it is best discussed, because this is the time when we can best discuss it, facts of the issue exposed.

And by discussing it now, we can set policy forever more.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, April 28, 2009 2:19 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
So what are you saying here, that we saved the Human race because of waterboarding...?


No...I'm saying we chose waterboarding over extinguishing the Arab race in nuclear fire. A choice they would not have made given the means and opportunity.

We know that if the terrorists had the means they would destroy us, all of us, not just the military and the government, but every man, woman, and child. We have the means and choose not to destroy them...we are better then them.

We know that given the means they would use torture...not just to extract information that would be used to take more lives...but to inflict pain and suffering on the victim. They would not stop with waterboarding and sleep deprivation but would use anything and everything at their disposal without regard for sentiment or morality. We use it in limited and strictly controlled circumstances to gain information to save lives....again, because we are better then them.

I'm not saying torture everybody that comes through the door. But the tool should be in the box and they need to know its there...and like any tool it has its proper use by skilled craftmen doing a specific job.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Tuesday, April 28, 2009 4:16 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
So what are you saying here, that we saved the Human race because of waterboarding...?


No...I'm saying we chose waterboarding over extinguishing the Arab race in nuclear fire. A choice they would not have made given the means and opportunity.



You know that for a fact, do ya? The "Arab race" aleady has nuclear weapons. Pakistan has them. Last time I checked, we were calling them an "ally" of ours. Odd that they haven't tried to extinguish "the American race" in a hell of nuclear fire, as you insist they would if they could.

Quote:


We know that if the terrorists had the means they would destroy us, all of us, not just the military and the government, but every man, woman, and child. We have the means and choose not to destroy them...we are better then them.

We know that given the means they would use torture...not just to extract information that would be used to take more lives...but to inflict pain and suffering on the victim. They would not stop with waterboarding and sleep deprivation but would use anything and everything at their disposal without regard for sentiment or morality. We use it in limited and strictly controlled circumstances to gain information to save lives....again, because we are better then them.

I'm not saying torture everybody that comes through the door. But the tool should be in the box and they need to know its there...and like any tool it has its proper use by skilled craftmen doing a specific job.



And now you've lowered the bar even more. Where once America sought to be the Light of the World, the shining mansion on the hill, the beacon of hope in a world of darkness... Now you're hoping that "we're better than most terrorists" is a catchy new motto. "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, yearning to be free... and we most likely won't cut their heads off or drown them. Maybe a little light drowning."

Wow, you make America suck. You should be ashamed, and if you had any real decency, you'd commit ritual suicide for the dishonor you've brought to your country in its time of need.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Tuesday, April 28, 2009 5:53 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
So what are you saying here, that we saved the Human race because of waterboarding...?


No...I'm saying we chose waterboarding over extinguishing the Arab race in nuclear fire. A choice they would not have made given the means and opportunity.

We know that if the terrorists had the means they would destroy us, all of us, not just the military and the government, but every man, woman, and child. We have the means and choose not to destroy them...we are better then them.

We know that given the means they would use torture...not just to extract information that would be used to take more lives...but to inflict pain and suffering on the victim. They would not stop with waterboarding and sleep deprivation but would use anything and everything at their disposal without regard for sentiment or morality. We use it in limited and strictly controlled circumstances to gain information to save lives....again, because we are better then them.

I'm not saying torture everybody that comes through the door. But the tool should be in the box and they need to know its there...and like any tool it has its proper use by skilled craftmen doing a specific job.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.




Unless you're willing to claim that every single man woman and child on this planet, regardless of nationality, regardless of their actual, professed political or religious beliefs, regardless or whether they actually are terrorists or support terorists.. would destroy a vast portion of this planet for the purpose of extinguishing the U.S. with nuclear weapons if they could, regardless of whether they actually already could.... ONLY because they happen to be of Arab descent... you're talking yourself into one hell of a corner here.


You've created one hell of a demonic picture in your head, one hell of an US vs. THEM schisma, and you live in a very hopeless world because of it, because it will never allow you to believe in a positive solution.

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Tuesday, April 28, 2009 6:01 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

You've created one hell of a demonic picture in your head, one hell of an US vs. THEM schisma, and you live in a very hopeless world because of it, because it will never allow you to believe in a positive solution.

All I can do is agree if y'all are gonna express my opinions for me here.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, April 28, 2009 6:15 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

You've created one hell of a demonic picture in your head, one hell of an US vs. THEM schisma, and you live in a very hopeless world because of it, because it will never allow you to believe in a positive solution.

All I can do is agree if y'all are gonna express my opinions for me here.


The laughing Chrisisall



I just find it seriously upsetting.

Usually these threads are an intellectual exercise for me, but seeing this sort of absolute language with regard to other people... My grandmother grew up hearing this sort of dehumanising rethoric on the radio and reading it in the paper, and we all know what people who think in these terms are capable of doing or supporting.

How can he use the words "Arab race" and not stop short and just shake himself out of what he's cooking up in his head? How blurry is his picture that he lumps it all together, vast populations of wholy individual people, and put it in a pot labled "evil" and then pat himself on the back because no one performed genocide on them?

At some point it stops being funny, or sloppy language. It starts getting scary. Because he's an articulate, educated person, who obviously has decent values in life, otherwise. He's not some bald-shaved freak in a struggling small-town who waves a Nazi flag because he has no options in life.

Even with his views on torture, he should know better than to mess up his language like that, and his view of human beings.

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Tuesday, April 28, 2009 6:19 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:



How can he use the words "Arab race" and not stop short and just shake himself out of what he's cooking up in his head? How blurry is his picture that he lumps it all together, vast populations of wholy individual people, and put it in a pot labled "evil" and then pat himself on the back because no one performed genocide on them?


Indoctrination.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, April 28, 2009 6:38 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
You've created one hell of a demonic picture in your head, one hell of an US vs. THEM schisma, and you live in a very hopeless world because of it, because it will never allow you to believe in a positive solution.



It's not an US vs. THEM world he's created, it's U.S. vs. THEM. That doesn't make it bad - it makes it PATRIOTIC!



Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Tuesday, April 28, 2009 6:52 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Way back when there was a series of threads about demonization and how that makes it possible to dehumanize, torture, kill, or genocide people. It seems like this website has collectively taken a step back from then. Some people are not able to acknowledge their fears openly, and have hardened their positions to vigorously defend actions which they wouldn't have defended previous, or at least might have thought about more.

---------------------------------
They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.

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Tuesday, April 28, 2009 7:04 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


You're right, Signy - and for proof, you need look no further than those who now rabidly DEFEND the U.S. government torturing people WHILE CLAIMING THAT TO DO OTHERWISE WOULD BE UN-AMERICAN! How fucked up does your morality have to be in order to see torture as a good, moral American value that must be upheld?

And then for these fuckers to stand there and try to defend it by degrees - "Well, if we torture, surely THEY torture worse, so we're still better than them" - it's just disgraceful. It's like saying it's okay to molest kids, as long as they're over the age of 12. It's a bullshit justification of reprehensible, unacceptable behavior.

If that's the America these bastards want to live in, they fucking well deserve it. All of it. Every single thing that happens to them, whether it be at the hands of the terrorists, or those they think are supposed to protect them from the terrorists, because it's impossible to tell the difference anymore.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Tuesday, April 28, 2009 7:47 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
No...I'm saying we chose waterboarding over extinguishing the Arab race in nuclear fire. A choice they would not have made given the means and opportunity.



You know that for a fact, do ya? The "Arab race" aleady has nuclear weapons. Pakistan has them. Last time I checked, we were calling them an "ally" of ours. Odd that they haven't tried to extinguish "the American race" in a hell of nuclear fire, as you insist they would if they could.


I note for the record that 99% if the Pakistani people are of the Indo-Iranian ethnic group. Arabs comprise a few thousand, mostly refugees, of the world's sixth most heavily populated nation.
Quote:


And now you've lowered the bar even more. Where once America sought to be the Light of the World, the shining mansion on the hill, the beacon of hope in a world of darkness... Now you're hoping that "we're better than most terrorists" is a catchy new motto. "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, yearning to be free..."

Wow, you make America suck. You should be ashamed, and if you had any real decency, you'd commit ritual suicide for the dishonor you've brought to your country in its time of need.


"You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace." 1864, General Sherman's letter to the Mayor and City Coucil of Atlanta regarding his intent to burn the City.

http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/sherman/sherman-to-burn-atlanta.html

I would suggest that America does not suck because of what was done or what will be done in her defense...I believe your argument is not with me or President Bush or General Sherman...it is with War. This what War is, these are the things War requires of us. War is mankind at its best and mankind at its worst. We know this, we understand this, and knowing and understanding mean we would not and must not bring such terrible conflict upon another people unless the failure to act would bring about that one thing which is worse then War...Defeat.

"But, my dear sirs, when peace does come, you may call on me for any thing. Then will I share with you the last cracker, and watch with you to shield your homes and families against danger from every quarter."

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Tuesday, April 28, 2009 8:08 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

we would not and must not bring such terrible conflict upon another people unless the failure to act would bring about that one thing which is worse then War...Defeat.


Poppycock. How was it that Iraq was going to defeat us, then? Why did we have to "bring such terrible conflict upon another people"?

Quote:

I note for the record that 99% if the Pakistani people are of the Indo-Iranian ethnic group. Arabs comprise a few thousand, mostly refugees, of the world's sixth most heavily populated nation.



So, who are "the Arab race" that you speak of? I think you're confusing nationality, religion, and race again. Are we at war with the Saudis? Aren't they "Arabs", being from Saudi Arabia and all? And weren't they the largest single group represented by the 9/11 hijackers?

Who do you mean when you say "the Arab race" wants to annihilate us? Muslims? Saudis? Some unspecified brownish people to be named later? Whomever we feel like torturing today? Whomever isn't voting our way in the U.N.? Who?

By the way, did you just use Sherman's sacking of Atlanta to illustrate our mercy and patriotism? AuRaptor will be so proud of you! Maybe next time you can show us how Hitler actually loved the Jews, and was just hiding them in the ovens until the war was over!

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Tuesday, April 28, 2009 9:08 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Poppycock. How was it that Iraq was going to defeat us, then? Why did we have to "bring such terrible conflict upon another people"?


That is a good question and one we have been discussing here for years. I argued then and now that there was ample cause for war. I argued then and now that Iraq was acting against its own agreements to end the 1990-91 Gulf conflict, that it was engaged in a WMD program (which was later revealed to be a fraud), that it actively undermined American alliances and the United Nations with the largest bribery scheme in human history, that it was regularly attacking British and American planes, and that it was aiding and comforting terrorist and terrorist organizations. I argue now that Iraq was also engaged in the systematic torture and murder of hundreds of thousands of its own citizens.
Quote:


Quote:

I note for the record that 99% if the Pakistani people are of the Indo-Iranian ethnic group. Arabs comprise a few thousand, mostly refugees, of the world's sixth most heavily populated nation.


So, who are "the Arab race" that you speak of? I think you're confusing nationality, religion, and race again. Are we at war with the Saudis? Aren't they "Arabs", being from Saudi Arabia and all? And weren't they the largest single group represented by the 9/11 hijackers?


By "arab" I meant "arab". I didn't mean Pakistani, I didn't mean Nigerian, I didn't mean Turk. Arabs are arabs, not Iranians, not Mongols, not those nice Muslim folks in Indonesia.

Apparently all those folks look the same to you. Me, I can tell the difference between and Arab and a Seikh and a Berber (and sometimes that difference is a barber).
Quote:


By the way, did you just use Sherman's sacking of Atlanta to illustrate our mercy and patriotism?


Actually I used it because the man was attempting to explain the concept of total war to a bunch of civilians who where begging for mercy. His point was neither about mercy or patriotism (it bothers me still, I being a son of the south). His point was about the American concept of war and peace.

Using Japan as an example...war with America resulted in total destruction and irradiated ruins...peace with America resulted in transformation to a modern and prosperous nation...an equal partner in both trdae and international relations.

In this new modern age we make war on the terrorists...not just their camps and strongholds, upon their ideas, their idealogy, their very souls. We find them and try to kill them. If we wound them we treat their wounds. Once captured and healthy...they must submit to us. That means telling us everything. If they resist they are in effect continuing to fight...in a different form. We then must break down that resistance by reasonable means. If they choose to make their will the battlefield then we will use the tools at our disposal to defeat them...leaving their souls irradiated and ruined. But...should they choose to end the conflict...then we shall be their greatest friend and ally.

I note that civilized nations have agreed by treaty not to engage in the abuse of prisoners. It is a mutual agreement, one made so as to protect their own soldiers from the abuse of others. Terrorists regularly abuse and horrifically murder their prisoners. By all rights of war we could and some argue should do the same thing. We choose not to.

It has been argued that the standard "we are not as bad as the terrorists" is too low. I note for the record that it is much better to hear such a motto spoken by the living then to see "we could have done more" etched on the tombstones of the dead.

If waterboarding a prisoner could have stopped 9/11 would it have been worthwhile? I suspect millions of Americans and hundreds of millions of persons (including most Arabs, even many of those who at that point considered America in a negative fashion,) would agree. I suspect there would be overwhelming agreement on that subject. Course that's Monday morning quarterbacking, much like the rest of this discussion. We used those methods, we stopped a major attack and other valuable things.

Would you have volunteered to die in that attack? If so, thats good for you. How many Americans, your neighbors would you condemn to die in your place?

If you truly would die in such an attack...I'm sure we could work something out. We give you and all those who think like you to them, they kill you, and they agree not to attack us. I'm sure they'd live up to such an arrangement...them being so honorable...and we'd honor your sacrifice (right up to the point they try to attack us again...after which we'd laugh at you who were so brave...and foolish).

Actually I'm kinda hoping you go for it...there'd be a lot fewer liberals...and thats good news for everybody.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Tuesday, April 28, 2009 9:55 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
We used those methods, we stopped a major attack

Details, please.
I could say that I myself stopped a major attack- that doesn't make it so.
So, details, please.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, April 28, 2009 10:05 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
We used those methods, we stopped a major attack

Details, please.


Please refer your question to President Obama.

He started this by releasing selected memo's making the Republicans look bad. It backfired.

Until then you'll need to be satisfied with everybody who says it happened.

I note for the record that the official response from Obama has not been to deny the additional memo's existence or the truth being asserted by Dick Cheney and all those who came out saying the same thing. Instead they don't want to release them. If they don't exist...they'd say that...if they don't say what's been asserted they'd have released them. Now they're just hoping it will all go away.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Tuesday, April 28, 2009 10:08 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


ChrisIsAll

It's just the same time-traveling stuff they've been harping on - you know the 2002 attack that was stopped in 2003. They keep missing the BIG PICTURE - somebody perfected time travel !

***************************************************************

Now THAT'S awesome.

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Tuesday, April 28, 2009 10:15 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:


Until then you'll need to be satisfied with everybody who says it happened.


You can't make me be satisfied with it.

Maybe hearsay stands up in YOUR court, sir....




The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, April 28, 2009 10:17 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:

It has been argued that the standard "we are not as bad as the terrorists" is too low. I note for the record that it is much better to hear such a motto spoken by the living then to see "we could have done more" etched on the tombstones of the dead.




Anything that keeps you alive is worth it, eh? You have no values you'd treasure, aside from might makes right and enjoying the fantasy of completely erradicating what gives you trouble, like a bullied child?

I swear, this post of yours sounded like a masturbation fantasy. A creepy one. With Biblical themes about complete submission to the all powerful God, and complete annihilation in case of rebellion. And a complete lack of accountability to any rules at all, because You Are All Powerful. Very old testament. Very Job.

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Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:15 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


Until then you'll need to be satisfied with everybody who says it happened.



Aren't they the same ones who said Saddam had WMD, though? And by your own admission, that was a fraud. How many times do you think we'll let you try to pull the wool over our eyes?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:20 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:

It has been argued that the standard "we are not as bad as the terrorists" is too low. I note for the record that it is much better to hear such a motto spoken by the living then to see "we could have done more" etched on the tombstones of the dead.




Anything that keeps you alive is worth it, eh? You have no values you'd treasure, aside from might makes right and enjoying the fantasy of completely erradicating what gives you trouble, like a bullied child?

I swear, this post of yours sounded like a masturbation fantasy. A creepy one. With Biblical themes about complete submission to the all powerful God, and complete annihilation in case of rebellion. And a complete lack of accountability to any rules at all, because You Are All Powerful. Very old testament. Very Job.



Yes indeed. And I note that Hero's love of humanity and desire to save us all from the Big Bad Evil tends to end right where our "liberal" beliefs begin; he'll GLADLY sacrifice anyone who doesn't agree with him. How very christian of him.

I also notice how he utterly fails to identify "the Arab race" he keeps referring to. Anyone who doesn't like the U.S. is his version of "Arab", I guess. But he can tell a "Seikh" from a Berber. Whatever a Seikh is...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Long List of Celebrities that are Still Here
Fri, March 29, 2024 00:00 - 1 posts
BUILD BACK BETTER!
Thu, March 28, 2024 23:51 - 10 posts
China
Thu, March 28, 2024 22:10 - 447 posts
Biden
Thu, March 28, 2024 22:03 - 853 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Thu, March 28, 2024 17:24 - 3413 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Thu, March 28, 2024 17:20 - 6155 posts
Well... He was no longer useful to the DNC or the Ukraine Money Laundering Scheme... So justice was served
Thu, March 28, 2024 12:44 - 1 posts
Salon: NBC's Ronna blunder: A failed attempt to appeal to MAGA voters — except they hate her too
Thu, March 28, 2024 07:04 - 1 posts
Russian losses in Ukraine
Wed, March 27, 2024 23:21 - 987 posts
human actions, global climate change, global human solutions
Wed, March 27, 2024 15:03 - 824 posts

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