REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Mexican flu cases rising by the 100's, deaths certain to occur.

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Friday, May 1, 2009 15:18
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Thursday, April 30, 2009 5:22 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Both of which have become more resistant to treatment , due to doctors over-prescribing antibiotics..."

And don't forget the stuff in animal feed - to make them grow faster and increase profit. Half of all antibiotics sold in the US is used in animal feed.

As for MRSA's origins, you might be interested to know that it first emerged over 4 decades ago, in Britain, and that antibiotic resistance genes were already prevalent in bacteria even back then.

However, over-treating people with antibiotics has no excuse, and putting antibiotics in animal feed is criminal greed.

http://runews.rockefeller.edu/index.php?page=engine&id=292


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Thursday, April 30, 2009 6:03 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
putting antibiotics in animal feed is criminal greed.


Rue, every time a company endangers the public for their profits, you call it greed...




The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 6:23 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
What about Americans who go into Canada?



Who in their right mind would want to go there?

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 6:30 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Well, if you were sick there, at least you'd get cared for without paying out of pocket.

So maybe - people with medical conditions ?

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 6:32 AM

RIPWASH


Nah . . . they just pick your pocket in your paycheck . . . with taxes and all.

Who knows? I don't. I have no idea what I'm saying. LOL

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 6:35 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


And yet - they pay less per person for healthcare for everyone than we pay for healthcare for a few.

THAT makes our system better ! B/c it costs more and does less !

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 7:01 AM

RIPWASH


But stuff like this:
http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results/15524/Canadas_Medical_Night
mare.html


and

http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20040920/us-tops-canada-in-pos
t-heart-attack-care?action=related_link


and

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C132785%2C00.html

Make me more than just a little uneasy about moving to Canada for "free" healthcare.

Our system needs an overhaul, sure. Like many things here. But that system ain't one to particularly look up to. I'll take my chances for the time being and pay a bit more for the better/quicker treatment, I think.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 7:32 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Are you not allowed to pay more for better/quick treatment in Canada?

I was under the impression that under Canada's system, EVERYONE had a bare-minimum level of care, but if you wanted to upgrade, you could.

Here, we have a bare minimum level, too - it's called "none".

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 8:47 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I find this seriously wrong
Quote:

A July 2004 study by the Vancouver-based Fraser Institute, Paying, More, Getting Less, concluded that after years of government control, the Canadian medical system is badly injured and bleeding citizens' hard-earned tax dollars. The institute compared health care systems in the industrialized countries in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) and found Canada currently spends the most, yet ranks among the lowest on such indicators as access to physicians, quality of medical equipment, and key health outcomes.
No, actually that would be THE UNITED STATES.

Here are the facts:
Quote:

In 2008, the United States will spend 17 percent of its gross domestic product (GDP) on health care. It is projected that the percentage will reach 20 percent by 2017. Although nearly 46 million Americans are uninsured, the United States spends more on health care than other industrialized nations, and those countries provide health insurance to all their citizens.
Health care spending accounted for 10.9 percent of the GDP in Switzerland, 10.7 percent in Germany, 9.7 percent in Canada and 9.5 percent in France, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development

According to the stats, Canada's spending is indeed at the lower end of the scale and far below that of the USA. Any report which includes such egregious errors should be treated with tongs, rubber gloves and a gas mask!

FWIW_ I have several Canadian friends, and have been in touch with many parents of neurocompromised children in Canada. One of my friends (Ontario) was dx with non-Hodgkins lymphoma about about 45 y/o. He was treated immediately: surgery, chemo, radiation, and bone-marrow transplant. It was not a cheap regimen, but he got it all for free thru the govt. I HAVE heard about problems with access... in places like Alberta and Saskachewan... where the poulation is sparse and hospitals equally so. One of the biggest reasons that CANADIANS cite for their difficulties with healthcare is PROXIMITY TO THE USA.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 9:10 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Rip

And yet:

First link

"... Canada currently spends the most, yet ranks among the lowest on such indicators as access to physicians, quality of medical equipment, and key health outcomes."

Why did the study leave out US figures? Because the Canadian system performs better than the US system. In every metric you can think of - cost, coverage, overall lifespan, death-rate from treatable illness, vaccination rates, infant mortality --- anything you look at --- Canada does better. To say that Canada is worse than those other countries is not to make it better than the US.

"In 1999" Data is over 10 years old and irrelevant for this discussion.
But since you cited, it let's look at it anyway: 22,500 bypass surgeries (which do not affect death rate as the article implies, but comfort levels) were performed in Canada. In the province of Ontario (and BTW, I am always suspect of studies that don't compare apples to apples, but to zebras) 71 died + 121 removed list + 44 left = 236 total did NOT get bypasss surgery in Ontario. Since Ontario has roughly 50% of Canada's entire population, let's say it would have been 236 * 2 = 472 nationally. That is 2% of ALL potential bypass patients nationally. How does that compare to US figures ? Any idea ? Me neither. But considering that 30% of ALL people in the US were uninsured at that time, and many more were underinsured, I would guess it's a much larger percent than the Canadian one. And that makes the Canadian system a failure - how ?


Second link
"For the study, researchers reviewed death rates within five years after heart attack for 23,105 U.S. and 2,898 Canadian heart attack patients who were part of a clinical trial conducted in the early 1990s."

Two things -
One: Is that ALL heart atack patients on both countries ? NO - it is among a select group of patients WHO RECEIVED ONGOING CARE IN A STUDY. Many US patients receive NO CARE - because they can't afford it. It is a trusim that the US uses more high-tech procedures. It is ALSO a truism that many people in the US receive no care at all.
Two: Again, the data is from the the early 1990's. Canada has since revised it's heart-care protocols, and that data is meaningless for the purposes of current comaprisons.




As for your third link - oddly enough, the link within the FOX article which was supposed to take me to the original data source didn't work.

But I did find other information like this: "Canadian Medical Association champions private medicine". And WHO did the poll, again ?

And I found severely conflicting data, which disputes that story: "One-fourth of American respondents are either "very" or "somewhat" satisfied with "the availability of affordable healthcare in the nation" .... in Canada ... 57% are satisfied with the availability of affordable healthcare, including 16% who are very satisfied. Roughly 4 in 10 Britons are satisfied (43%), but only 7% say they are very satisfied (similar to the percentage very satisfied in the United States)."

Not to slam FOX news, but you need to vary your sources.

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 9:23 AM

RIPWASH


I bow to your medicinal intellectual know-how . . . still doesn't make me wanna move there, though


Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 9:28 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


How close to the border do you live ? Where I came from - 5 miles away - people were packed against the figurative fence facing into Canada, like a cattle herd on the move. And where I am now - well I guess it's the Mexicans trying for the US. Only not so much, anymore.

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 9:30 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Have you ever been there? It's nice. VERY nice. Much lower crime rate. The people are more polite. The whole place is cleaner and cities are actually fun places to be (the only problem seems to be they roll up the sidewalks Sunday 8PM!). More attention keeping things up. I don't get the feeling that everything there is hopelessly deteriorating, like I do over here. Canadians seem to think collective problems SHOULD be handled, instead of just tossing it to the "free market" and seeing what falls off.

I visit my Canadian friends as often as possible. I wouldn't mind moving there, but my hubby hates snow and cold... *sigh*

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 9:55 AM

RIPWASH


To answer both of you...

Where do I live? Northern-ish Ohio. Small town (clinging to guns and religion kind of thing LOL). Don't get a chance to see many people clamboring to get into Canada.

Have I ever been to Canada? I was actually saying the above post tongue-in-cheekily. I've never been there, but would like to visit someday. I'm on the lower-middle class of the economic spectrum and can't afford too many trips like that. I can't make a substantive arguement AGAINST moving there this being the case.

You wanted more sources. I can give a couple more that I found . . . to which I'm sure you two will pick the dickens apart to show how incredibly ill-informed I am on the subject. Hey that seems to be my lot in life Ah well...

Here they are . . . NOT from Fox News, btw . . .

http://www.heritage.org/Research/HealthCare/hl856.cfm

And in case your interested the author of the Heritage.com article is:
Quote:

the founding President of the Atlantic Institute for Market Studies www.aims.ca, located in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Crowley is co-author of two Sir Antony Fisher Award-winning projects on the Canadian health care system. In recognition of his health care work, he was named to the the most influential provincial health care inquiry in Canada, the Mazankowski Committee. Former Canadian Deupty Prime Minister Don Mazankowski called Crowley the "intellectual architect" of the committee's report.


http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/08/20/cma-healthcare.html




Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:39 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"I'm on the lower-middle class of the economic spectrum and can't afford too many trips like that."

I'll read your links with interest. In the meantime - many of my good-weather trips were by bicycle ! Others, by bus. Very few by car - usually a ride provided by someone else. That was the advantage of living so close by. International travel was cheap and easy !

It was the opposite of familiarity breeding contempt - generally, the closer one was to the border, the better Canada looked.

I second what SignyM said btw. And, I'll give you a tip in how to spot a Canadian a US crowd. Look for the ones walking with their heads up and looking around. They stand out from the general defensive US stance like day vs night.

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:46 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
And, I'll give you a tip in how to spot a Canadian a US crowd. Look for the ones walking with their heads up and looking around. They stand out from the general defensive US stance like day vs night.



That and I understand they actually do say "Sorry" (or "Sorey" with the accent and all ) quite a bit, even when it's their fault. LOL

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:52 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


And they say "eh"? Quite a bit? It's not just a stereotype, eh? And they always sound like they're asking a question? Even when they're not?

BTW- Coming from northernish Ohio as you do, you'd find the landscape very familiar. I think you'd really like it (unless you hate northernish Ohio is which case...). Wish I could swing by and pick you up on my way there next time... it would be fun!

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:59 AM

RIPWASH


Well that whole "Sorry" thing is actually from a story told by a Canadian (David Steinberg, I think) about a game he plays in elevators when he's with his daughter just to embarass her. He'll keep bumping into the other people to get them to say "sorry." He wasn't telling a joke, just a funny story.

I'm not trying to be stereotypical. Just what I heard/saw on TV. But they DO say "sorey" and "aboot." Sometimes it's blaringly obivious, sometimes it's subtle, but it's there. No offense to any Canadians out there! You can blame all the sterotype stuff on Bob and Doug McKenzie!!!

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 11:28 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"You can blame all the sterotype stuff on Bob and Doug McKenzie!!!"

Eh ?

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 12:30 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"You can blame all the sterotype stuff on Bob and Doug McKenzie!!!"

Eh ?

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Take off, hoser!



Yeah, I know a couple Canadians, and they DO say "eh" quite a bit. And they DO say "soary" and "aboot" - although it always sound to me more like their saying "a boat".

But that's no big. I say "dang" and "y'all" because I grew up in Texas, y'all.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 12:33 PM

FREMDFIRMA


I find em a very civilized and well mannered folk in general, not to mention amazingly tolerant of drunken michiganders - compared to detroit police the mounties are freakin saints.

S'funny, a while back I had a bit of spare time on my hands and some local friends offered to go hit up the "Windsor Ballet" - now me, being me, and outside of my varied specialties generally a blockhead, said sure, cause ballet is pretty cool to watch, the clockwork precision, the discipline of it, is quite fascinating.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Windsor+Ballet

Of course, then the rather rude shock when we get there and I discover the term has nothin to do with err, fine arts, one might say - not that the places ain't nice, but certainly not MY preferred theme of entertainment, much for the same reason Mal dislikes the fancy party in Shindig "The lie of it.."

At least my party was well-behaved, cause I got zero patience with anything that smacks of disrespect of women no matter their employment and they knew this... others were not so circumspect, however.

Places must make a lotta money to put up with us obnoxious assclowns from michigan, I guess, but really, they're quite decent folk, Canadians.

Now if only they'd quit passing off that decaffinated shite as mountain dew...
(For reasons beyond my understanding, there's no caffiene in "clear" sodas sold in Canada, they're weird that way)

-F

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Thursday, April 30, 2009 1:57 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Race is of zero significance, huh? You just naturally - by your own admission, in your own words - assume that everybody from Mexico who enters Texas does so illegally.
No, not everybody, but the odds are probably pretty good.

Quote:

And that's not a racist assumption AT ALL, is it?
No, not really. It's simply dealing w/ the odds. There's no hint or indication on MY part of any superiority by one race over another. That's racism. My comment, was, more correctly , bigoted. Learn the difference, and please make a note of it.

Quote:

Tell me, do you also assume that every American who visits Tijuana is there illegally, too?
No. They're there to SPEND money, for tequila, dancing, donkey shows(what ever those are ) and a fine tuck and roll.
Quote:

What about Americans who go into Canada? Do you assume they're illegals? Probably not.
Nope again. There to spend $$ on cheap prescription pills, toques and watch Auzzies ski nekkied on Australia Day.









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Friday, May 1, 2009 5:11 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


It was once said that a black man would be president "when pigs fly". Indeed, 100 days into Obamas presidency....

Swine Flu.


heheheheh

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Friday, May 1, 2009 5:40 AM

STORYMARK


Thanks Rappy, for giving us another thread to illustrate what a simple-minded dipshit you are. Can't even admit to a mistake, and then start throwing around assinine analogies (or, did Obama let an entire city full of white folk drown? No? Then you're full of shit, as per usual).

You never fail to set the bar ever lower for yourself and your sock puppets. Well done.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, May 1, 2009 6:41 AM

ELVISCHRIST


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
It was once said that a black man would be president "when pigs fly". Indeed, 100 days into Obamas presidency....

Swine Flu.


heheheheh



HAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHHHh....\

hah.

You should e-mail that around to all your white friends, along with the picture of Air Force One rockin' on gold-plated dubs, and the one about Obama being just another black family on welfare living in government housing.


Ah, black jokes - they never get old, do they?


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Friday, May 1, 2009 6:44 AM

ELVISCHRIST


Quote:

Originally posted by AuRaptor:

My comment, was, more correctly , bigoted. Learn the difference, and please make a note of it.



At least you can admit that you're a bigot.


I have to wonder, though: is being a bigot better then being a racist? I'm not sure where they rank on the heirarchical scale.

Maybe Wulfenstar can help?

Don't tell me that my ship is coming in...
Time's running out the door you're running in.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 7:00 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


RIP

The report was made available through the Heritage Foundation. I think we all know enough about that organization to not need an introduction to its agenda.
The rest may need some explaining. And,while this may not be FOX news, it doesn't pretend to be unbiased:

"... the founding President of the 1) Atlantic Institute for Market Studies www.aims.ca, located in Halifax, Nova Scotia. 2) Crowley is co-author of two 3) Sir Antony Fisher Award-winning projects on the Canadian health care system. In recognition of his health care work, he was named to the most influential provincial health care inquiry in Canada, the 4) Mazankowski Committee. Former 5) Canadian Deupty Prime Minister Don Mazankowski called Crowley the "intellectual architect" of the committee's report."

1) AIMS is a conservative, free-market think tank in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada.
2) Brian Lee Crowley is the founding President of AIMS
3) Sir Antony Fisher International Memorial Awards awarded by the Atlas Foundation, a conservative think tank. "With a modest $4 million dollar budget in 2003 and a staff of eight, Atlas Economic Research Foundation is on a mission to populate the world with new "free market" voices."
4) Mazankowski Committee is a provincial (Alberta) committee.
5) (former) Canadian Deupty Prime Minister Don Mazankowski is a conservative.


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Friday, May 1, 2009 7:03 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I found both the CMA survey and the reporting on it to be problematic. When ALL the numbers aren't reported - and when the numbers that are reported seem to be chosen and described using inconsistent criteria - I get suspicious. Why the cherry-picking ? In addition, there were internal contradictions in this survey, as well as deep contradictions with the Heritage-reported survey.

The CMA has a stated agenda - and that is, to promote private, market-based medical practice.

CMA seventh annual national report card
1,001 Canadian adults

overall quality of health-care services
A - 35 % Atlantic provinces (high)
A - 14 % Quebec (low)
A - 21 %
B - 41 %
Total - 62 %
2006 - 67%

access to doctors
A - 29 % (called problematic by the article)
access to walk-in clinics
A - 26 % (called problematic by the article)
access for children
A - 22 % (called 'good' by the article)
access for seniors
A - 17 % (called 'good' by the article)
However, after calling the low-scoring access for children and seniors 'good', the article then went on to state that the higher scoring overall access was problematic. Additionally, the fact that B's, C's, D's and F's weren't reported creates a lack of context and promotes suspicion - what are they hiding ?


access to specialists
F - 21 %
access to (high technology) diagnostic tests
F - 19 %
evening \ weekend access
F - 21 %
mental health care access
F - 16 %
Additionally, the fact that A's, B's, C's, and D's weren't reported creates a lack of context and promotes suspicion - what are they hiding ?


It seems they got the following conclusion only by picking and choosing their data: '"The chief evolving concern is a lack of access to family doctors," CMA president Colin McMillan, told CBC News.'
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Friday, May 1, 2009 7:57 AM

ELVISCHRIST


Ladies and Gentlemen, AURaptor has left the building!



Thank ya vurrah much...

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Friday, May 1, 2009 9:16 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Yeah, cus making a joke...one that relys/is based on semantics... (Swine Flu-Swine Flew) is soooooo terrible.

asshole.

Elvis, Im glad you are dead. Stay that way.


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Friday, May 1, 2009 9:17 AM

STORYMARK


One can be racist, and hide behind semantics at the same time, as you've just illustrated.

And yes, since your semantical argument is predicated on the fact that he's black - you are hiding, son.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, May 1, 2009 9:23 AM

CITIZEN


To steal a phrase:
Everyone! Panic now while there's still time!

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Friday, May 1, 2009 9:23 AM

RIPWASH


Okay, Rue . . . So now that I've embarrassed myself with references to apparently Conservative sources that you feel should be dismissed out of hand . . . (Just kidding) . . . .

***EDITED TO ADD - I honestly did not even think to check in to the one organizations political leanings (yes, I knew about Heritage, but thought it was interesting to note). Didn't even occur to me to investigate it. I swear It was a Canadian Medical organization and that's all I was looking for.***

Please enlighten me by providing sources you feel ARE credible on the subject matter.

You and Sig are, I believe (if I remember seeing it somewhere correctly) in some sort of research field. Is that correct? So I understand and concede that you guys inherantly (because of your vocation) know more than me on this subject. I'd appreciate reading through your sources on the matter. The only thing I WILL say is that the fact that a couple of the sources I came up with are by Canadian authors that lends more than a little credibility to the subject at hand (Canadian Healthcare) IMHO. My thought process is: why would they be writing about the dificulties of Canadian Healthcare when they are a part of the system that is apparently so much better than ours? Conservative or Liberal, honestly makes no difference to me when it comes to this. It really doesn't. I DO think there are problems with our healthcare system, but I think it's better than most. I think changes have to be made to our healthcare system (like getting rid of the insurance companies all together) to make everything more competitive and affordable, but WITHOUT government interferance and WITHOUT taxing everyone for it. IMHO.

Also . . . I got the feeling I hijacked this thread my comments on Canada that started this off. My apologies to all if it aggravates anyone.

Mal: You think she'll hold together?
Zoë: She's torn up plenty, but she'll fly true.
Mal: Could be bumpy.
Zoë: Always is

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Friday, May 1, 2009 9:24 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Ok, so you admit that its ok to joke about ANYTHING, ANYTHING....so long as it doesnt offend your prided "causes" (gays, blacks ect).

Fuck off.

It was funny.


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Friday, May 1, 2009 9:39 AM

STORYMARK


Funny to rednecks who are all pissy for having a black President, sure.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, May 1, 2009 10:36 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Rip

I didn't have time to get to the longer article, though there are issues with it as well.

My original background is in healthcare. I worked a number of years in many different kinds of hospitals - small community (non-profit), large county, large private, university, federal, small private-practice associated, even learned about reservation hospitals ! - doing many different things. I've seen healthcare from the outside as a consumer, and from the inside as a producer. I've spent decades learning the minutia of policy and payment, of treatment and outcomes. I know Canadians and even spent quite a bit of time in Canada learning about Hospital for Sick Children (specifically). Since then I've made a study of healthcare systems.

I would be hard pressed to come up with ONE source for my information.

I suggest you do this: find the 'life tables' for several major first-world countries including the US (no later than 2006, b/c you want to be able to find complete sets of data). Look at life-expectancy and cause of death. Using google, for those same countries, find figures for vaccination rate and infant mortality. Also find figures for percent GDP spent on healthcare, and percent people covered.

You will find that the US has the lowest life expectancy and that death is overwhelmingly caused by preventable disease; highest infant mortality and lowest vaccination rates; spends the greatest percentage of GDP on healthcare, and covers only a fraction of the population, while the other countries cover everyone. Oh, and in addition, 30% of all health insurance dollars in the US go to profit and paperwork. And medical expenses is the leading cause of personal bankruptcy in the US.

The US without question spends more and covers fewer - and lack of care for everyone has a significant impact on population averages like life expectancy and infant mortality. Those are the facts of US healthcare. Other countries - who without exception DO have government-paid healthcare - do it better.


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 11:06 AM

RIPWASH


Then I think it's safe to say that we both agree that drastic changes need to be made in our government and our healthcare in order for it to work.

Trust me, if I thought our government was capable of regulating healthcare, I would feel a bit more comfortable. But I don't think it can, so I'm not. And that's a generalized statement. I don't mean the current administration in particular, but government as it's been run for God knows how long. IMHO the Government has screwed up Social Security and won't budge on our tax laws (1200 pages of crap that hardly anyone can really understand). Things need to change if this country is going to stay strong economically and physically. But each side keeps fighting against each other to the point that very little actually gets done.

The fears I have may certainly be uneducated, but as it stands now, I don't want to be told by someone else where to go or who to see. I realize that HMO's say you can only go to certain people, but there are several to choose from. Perhaps these government regulated systems don't do that, but that's the perception many people like me have. There's a doctor in my town that I had to go see once (he was the only one accepting new patients at the time for some reason) and I definately would NOT have chosen him otherwise. He was basically a quack. His idea of a hearing test was to go to the other side of the room, turn his back to me and whisper, "Can you hear me?" I changed as soon as I could, I tell ya. He did not give me a great deal of confidence. Perhaps in a government regulated system, he wouldn't be allowed to practice? I don't know.

I agree with you that those articles may have picked and chose their information a certain way. That's certainly possible, but I also don't feel comfortable in completely dismissing what they did present out of hand either. You may not have, but you questiond the authenticity and that's perfectly okay. Apparently there ARE people in Canada who feel the system is inadequate, that the wait for certain things are too long, that the technology and treatment options aren't where they should be, etc. That's all I'm sayin'. I mean isn't it viable to say that if government restricts the amount of options available to keep things affordable, for example, that new experimental treatments will not be allowed under that system because of the expense even though it could save lives? And if that's the case what incentive would drug and research companies have to come up with new treatment options? Those are the types of things I'm hearing. If that's not true, I'd like your take on it. Here or in PM is fine Don't wanna hijack this any further and/or detract from the comments about racist humor. LOL

Mal: You think she'll hold together?
Zoë: She's torn up plenty, but she'll fly true.
Mal: Could be bumpy.
Zoë: Always is

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Friday, May 1, 2009 11:18 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Don't wanna hijack this any further and/or detract from the comments about racist humor..."

So how is the joke I posted, racist?

Really? Im actually asking.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 11:31 AM

ELVISCHRIST


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"Don't wanna hijack this any further and/or detract from the comments about racist humor..."

So how is the joke I posted, racist?

Really? Im actually asking.



Wulfenstar,

You're wife is Dominican if I recall correctly, right? She'll get a kick out of this joke then...

Why couldn't the Dominican Republic be the Promised Land?

Cuz they could never find three wise men or a virgin there!

Oh, here's another one:

What does a Dominican girl put behind her ears to let a guy know she's available?

Her feet!


How is that racist? I'm really asking?

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Friday, May 1, 2009 11:34 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"IMHO the Government has screwed up Social Security ..."

How ? It's the ONE place the federal government is solvent ! Now, if the government could just stop raiding the till and consider repaying the money they took, it would stay that way.


"I don't want to be told by someone else where to go or who to see."

That IS pretty uneducated, I have to say. You have clearly been listening to the cough cough right-wing media. And to be clear - what I want and what the Obama administration wants are two different things. But in Canada, and elsewhere - you can see whoever you want. The difference is, there the government picks up the tab. (The government and the CMA have already negotiated a fee-for service schedule.)


"... I also don't feel comfortable in completely dismissing what they did present out of hand either."

I do, based on my personal experience and information - which is why I encourage you to research the topic. Don't take my word for it - check out neutral unbiased sources of hard data. The more you learn, the more you will understand that other countries DO do it better ! The question is - which of their choices do we wish to emulate ?


"Apparently there ARE people in Canada who feel the system is inadequate, that the wait for certain things are too long, that the technology and treatment options aren't where they should be, etc."

There are issues with healthcare availability. And for the most part, they are in rural and remote areas (Canada has a LOT of rural and remote areas though they are sparsely populated). But Canadian issues are swamped by the magnitude of US issues. If the point is to try and do better - why not look at systems that - do better ?

The surveys and opinion pieces you posted were highly slanted and did a lot of data exclusion. Any opinion you form from those sources is bound to be inaccurate.

Btw, 85%* of Canadians are proud of their system and want it to stay fundamentally the same. *My bad - most recent figure is 91%.


"And if that's the case what incentive would drug and research companies have to come up with new treatment options?"

You forget - even in the US the research is funded by the government. In fact, nearly ALL US medical research is funded by the government. Do you expect improvements to stop just b/c drug companies are no longer trying to cash in on the next big 'blockbuster' drug like - Viagra ?

Here's a challenge - come up with ONE major medical advancement researched and developed by private industry in the last 25 years. Good luck !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 11:41 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Actually...she read these and started cracking up.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 12:38 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:

My thought process is: why would they be writing about the dificulties of Canadian Healthcare when they are a part of the system that is apparently so much better than ours?



For the same reason that we might write about the difficulties of the Haitian healthcare system while thinking that ours is so much better than theirs... Admitting that one's healthcare system is better than someone else's AND admitting that it still has problems are not mutually exclusive positions. I think our healthcare system is better than many, but that doesn't stop me from bitching about the parts of it that are worse than others. It's no sin to borrow the parts of other systems that work, and mix them in where ours DON'T work.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 1:24 PM

RIPWASH


Now, don't get me wrong. I agree with ya here, Kwicko. You're repeating what I said several times. But if you'll read a little more carefully, I said it was Canadians dissing Canadian healthcare. And if Canada IS that much better then they would be telling it's better instead of how it's NOT. That's all I meant.

Why oh why do I get pulled into conversations with people that are smarter than me on the subject I'm complaining about, yet don't want to agree with them on?

Thanks, for the info guys! I'll look into it a little better as time permits.

Mal: You think she'll hold together?
Zoë: She's torn up plenty, but she'll fly true.
Mal: Could be bumpy.
Zoë: Always is

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Friday, May 1, 2009 1:44 PM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"IMHO the Government has screwed up Social Security ..."

How ? It's the ONE place the federal government is solvent ! Now, if the government could just stop raiding the till and consider repaying the money they took, it would stay that way.



Ah, and there's the rub. It shouldn't have been taken out to begin with! I don't recall who opened up that can of worms (allowing it to become part of the General Fund), but it shouldn't have and now it's not in good shape in terms of the bottom line and possibly not enough there for the folks who'll need it in the near future.


Quote:

"I don't want to be told by someone else where to go or who to see."

That IS pretty uneducated, I have to say. You have clearly been listening to the cough cough right-wing media. And to be clear - what I want and what the Obama administration wants are two different things. But in Canada, and elsewhere - you can see whoever you want. The difference is, there the government picks up the tab. (The government and the CMA have already negotiated a fee-for service schedule.)



Again, I concede to your more in-depth knowledge on this.

Quote:

"... I also don't feel comfortable in completely dismissing what they did present out of hand either."

I do, based on my personal experience and information - which is why I encourage you to research the topic. Don't take my word for it - check out neutral unbiased sources of hard data. The more you learn, the more you will understand that other countries DO do it better ! The question is - which of their choices do we wish to emulate ?



This is one area that we'll have to agree to disagree (in terms of dismissing what some people arguably DID say against the system). I DO agree that we should find away to do things better. I just don't know if taxing everyone to fund your particular brand of healthcare system is fair when it covers those who aren't contributing to the system. Again, probably naive and uneducated in your eyes. In a perfect world EVERYONE would have a job and make productive contributions to society and thus this healthcare system would be viable. I wouldn't have a problem with it at that point.

Quote:

The surveys and opinion pieces you posted were highly slanted and did a lot of data exclusion. Any opinion you form from those sources is bound to be inaccurate.


If that's the case, so be it. I'll have to do better next time. LOL

Quote:

Btw, 85%* of Canadians are proud of their system and want it to stay fundamentally the same. *My bad - most recent figure is 91%.


Okie dokie

Quote:

"And if that's the case what incentive would drug and research companies have to come up with new treatment options?"

You forget - even in the US the research is funded by the government. In fact, nearly ALL US medical research is funded by the government. Do you expect improvements to stop just b/c drug companies are no longer trying to cash in on the next big 'blockbuster' drug like - Viagra ?



I, the simpleton, was not aware of the amount of government involvement. But then that begs the question: if medical research is funded by the government, then why are the drugs/treatment generated from that research so gosh darned expensive for us common folk? If you claim they can give us healthcare cheaper and more affordable, why haven't they made THAT segment (which you say they have a certain amount of control over), more cost effective for American citizens? Hmmmmmm?

Quote:

Here's a challenge - come up with ONE major medical advancement researched and developed by private industry in the last 25 years. Good luck !


If I weren't so scared you'd clean my clock on the subject, I'd take you up on it. LOL This was probably government funded, but I have a friend at work who's husband went through a cancer treatment I'd never heard of before. They injected him with some chemical that would burn up when exposed to light (this is a layman's description so please forgive the errors). They waited a week or so and he had to stay in the dark the whole time (I called him Darkman). Then they blasted the tumor with ultraviolet light and destroyed the tumor that way. It was really cool the way they described it.

Mal: You think she'll hold together?
Zoë: She's torn up plenty, but she'll fly true.
Mal: Could be bumpy.
Zoë: Always is

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Friday, May 1, 2009 2:06 PM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"Don't wanna hijack this any further and/or detract from the comments about racist humor..."

So how is the joke I posted, racist?

Really? Im actually asking.



Sorry. I meant the comments about the joke being racist. I'll brace myself against the coming onslaught, be honest, and say that I heard that same joke at work just moments before I read your post. And yes, I chuckled. Not a knee slapper. I was not ROTFLOL, but I smiled. I didn't find it racist, I found the joke funny in the way I thought it was intended: an ironic play on words. That's all. No more, no less. I hope no one thinks less of me for that.

It would have been just as funny if the joke were told with "a woman" and Hillary was in the oval office or even Sarah Palin. I didn't find it racist because it wasn't derogatory to the man in office or his race, both of which I have no real problem with or against.

I'll bet you there are African Americans out there who would find that joke funny.

And now I feel like I'm over-explaining myself to avoid being called something I'm not.

So I'll stop.

If some of you want to slap that label on me because I'm agreeing with Wulf, then so be it. I know better.

Mal: You think she'll hold together?
Zoë: She's torn up plenty, but she'll fly true.
Mal: Could be bumpy.
Zoë: Always is

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Friday, May 1, 2009 2:56 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


Now, don't get me wrong. I agree with ya here, Kwicko. You're repeating what I said several times. But if you'll read a little more carefully, I said it was Canadians dissing Canadian healthcare. And if Canada IS that much better then they would be telling it's better instead of how it's NOT. That's all I meant.



Clearly I didn't say it right, then. I'm an American. *I* bitch about the American healthcare system. It doesn't mean it isn't better than some, or worse than others. Find the best healthcare system in the world, and you'll find someone in that country who's bitching about it. :) That there are some Canadians bitching about the Canadian system doesn't prove that it's a bad system - if anything, it proves that every system should be improved.

Quote:

Why oh why do I get pulled into conversations with people that are smarter than me on the subject I'm complaining about, yet don't want to agree with them on?


For the same reason I do: to learn. The day I stop learning is the day I start dying. I'm in no hurry to do either one.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 3:10 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:

I just don't know if taxing everyone to fund your particular brand of healthcare system is fair when it covers those who aren't contributing to the system.



There's the rub. How do you NOT cover those who don't contribute? Currently, they're covered by the state, either through welfare/medicare/medicaid coverage, jails and prisons, or the emergency rooms which must treat them if they show up.

We CAN stop this, if you've a heart cold enough to do so. How? Simple. When the uninsured and those with bad credit show up on your doorstep, you simply let them die. The question is, do you WANT to stop it that badly? Personally, I don't.

Now, about those who aren't contributing but whom we ARE giving medical care to at present. They're going to be with us in some form or other. We've gotten down as low as 4% unemployment in the past - in essence, if you WANTED a job, you had one. Still, there were some who wouldn't or couldn't work. They still had health care of some sort. I was working, and I *DIDN'T* have any health care plan. My "plan" included not getting sick, or going to work ill if I did get sick. And when I did get insurance, despite having no illnesses and no pre-existing conditions, my rates were over $6000 per year.

Frankly, for that amount of money, I'd just as soon have it come out of my check before I ever see it, just like my insurance premiums do now, and I'd have less to worry about as far as whether this or that is going to be covered. I still don't go to the doc unless there are bones sticking through the skin, because I'm never sure whether my shitty insurance plan is going to cover it or not. And it always seems like it ends up being "not".

So, since the uninsured ARE being covered already, having a universal healthcare system would actually be more of a benefit to ME than it would to them. And there's a very good chance that by having it and using it, I'd be able to be a healthy and productive, contributing member of society for a much longer time. Here's a hint: I have no plans to retire, ever. I'll work until they throw dirt on me. If I can't do that, all I pray for is a loaded pistol and the strength to use it.




Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Friday, May 1, 2009 3:12 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Thanks Rappy, for giving us another thread to illustrate what a simple-minded dipshit you are. Can't even admit to a mistake, and then start throwing around assinine analogies (or, did Obama let an entire city full of white folk drown? No? Then you're full of shit, as per usual).

You never fail to set the bar ever lower for yourself and your sock puppets. Well done.
"



WTF are you even talking about ? What 'mistake' are you referring ? No one 'let' a city full of any folk drown, except maybe Ray Nagin.




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Friday, May 1, 2009 3:18 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


I, the simpleton, was not aware of the amount of government involvement. But then that begs the question: if medical research is funded by the government, then why are the drugs/treatment generated from that research so gosh darned expensive for us common folk?



I'm just hazarding a guess here, but my bet would be that the government is helping fund the research, but letting the pharmaceutical companies hold the patents and keep the profits.

I know there's a bit of that kind of behavior in the defense industry.

I don't pretend to understand WHY this happens, but it seems to...

But again, I'm guessing on this. Maybe Rue or Signy can clarify.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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