REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Our most important rights?

POSTED BY: BADKARMA00
UPDATED: Monday, May 11, 2009 14:01
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Friday, May 8, 2009 11:13 PM

BADKARMA00


Just as a curiosity, I was wondering what many of the posters on FFF think are our most important rights as American Citizens. I know not all posters are Americans, but many are.



Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Friday, May 8, 2009 11:53 PM

SIMONWHO


Freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, the right to vote, the right to privacy, the right to due process.

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:07 AM

FREMDFIRMA


The right to be left the hell alone.

All else follows out of that basic principle.

-F

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:19 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The right to think freely.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:20 AM

AGENTROUKA


Out of curiosity, since you're limiting it to Americans, are you going somewhere particular with this?

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 10:49 AM

BADKARMA00


AgentRouka

Not really, in so far as a specific direction. This country is up in it's arms, right now, with everyone arguing over past and present policies. Many people feel that our long held rights are in danger, to at least some degree, and I was simply curious as to what many of the posters here thought about the issue.

I'm not real big on sparking arguments, lol, just wondered what others thought. Maybe a better question would have been which rights everyone feels are in danger of being lost, and why.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 10:52 AM

BADKARMA00


Fremdfirma wrote:
Saturday, May 09, 2009 06:07
The right to be left the hell alone.

All else follows out of that basic principle.

---------------------------------

I actually subscribe to that way of thinking myself, Frem. Don't bother me, I won't bother you, so to speak. Sadly, too many of our 'crats don't think that's a good policy. I honestly think a great deal of the established 'guberment', that is, the people who stay in positions of authority and influence no matter who is in office, think we're all just dumb sheep, and need a 'shepherd' to keep us safe.

Me, I'm fully capable of making my own decisions, be they good or bad. Either way, they're still MY decisions, ya know?

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 10:55 AM

BADKARMA00


SignyM wrote:
Saturday, May 09, 2009 06:19
The right to think freely.

-----------------------

Is that a right that is clearly defined by the constitution? Either way, it's a good point, and one I agree with. I think that the right of free speech pretty well covers the right to free thinking, myself, though others might disagree.

Presently, there are far too many people, and far too much proposed legislation, that seem to be directed at telling us what we can think as well as what we can say. Including, it seems, attempting to muzzle certain religious beliefs that might 'offend' others.

That's going to far, IMO.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 10:57 AM

BADKARMA00


SimonWho wrote:
Friday, May 08, 2009 23:53
Freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, the right to vote, the right to privacy, the right to due process.
--------------------------

All of which are vital in maintaining a free society, IMO.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 11:38 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


The right to sing the blues, of course.

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 12:38 PM

SERGEANTX


From your response to Signym, I gather you want something from the Bill of Rights, or the Constitution. From that set, I have to with the ninth amendment, which isn't a "right" per se, but attempts to clarify the concepts of limited government embodied in the main body of the Constitution.

More and more, I'm thinking the Federalists were right about this. They worried that a concise list of rights would allow the inference that only those rights to be protected. Yet I can appreciate the desire to clarify the point of limiting government power in the first place.

It think they'd have served that purpose better by providing a general statement about rights. Something like Frem's "right to be left alone" or something establishing the general concept that if you aren't harming someone else, then the government has to stay out of your business.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 12:41 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I'd lay out the Bill of Rights as being somewhat vital. After all, the Founding Fathers thought enough of them to go ahead and enumerate them for posterity...

One thing, though - if you take away any of them, the rest tend to fall rather quickly.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 12:47 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
From your response to Signym, I gather you want something from the Bill of Rights, or the Constitution. From that set, I have to with the ninth amendment, which isn't a "right" per se, but attempts to clarify the concepts of limited government embodied in the main body of the Constitution.

More and more, I'm thinking the Federalists were right about this. They worried that a concise list of rights would allow the inference that only those rights to be protected. Yet I can appreciate the desire to clarify the point of limiting government power in the first place.

It think they'd have served that purpose better by providing a general statement about rights. Something like Frem's "right to be left alone" or something establishing the general concept that if you aren't harming someone else, then the government has to stay out of your business.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock




I like the way the Sports Car Club of America writes its rules. They realized a long time ago that things change, new inventions arise, innovations are made, and you can't predict everything. In that spirit, the rules DO get rather specific, but it's the "catch-all" rule that I like the best: "If the rules don't say you CAN do it, then assume you CAN'T do it."

I always looked at the U.S. Constitution in the same light. It "gives" us certain rights, but even more, it constrains and restricts government FROM doing certain things. The intent seems to be, you as people have the absolute right to do these things, and probably more, but the government DOES NOT have the right to do any of these other things. And if there's any question of whether either of them have the right to do a thing or not, assume that government does not, and that the people do, and proceed from there.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 12:53 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by badkarma00:
the right to due process.

That one hasn't been around in, like, a century or so.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 12:58 PM

BADKARMA00


Sarge,

It doesn't have to be the Bill of Rights, per se, but it seems to me that all of the rights we enjoy are due, in some way, to those first ten items. I guess that's why it was sort of my focus, though the thread doesn't have to be defined by that.

As I said in another post, a better question might have been, which rights do people think we are in danger of losing, and why.

My goal here was just to see what people thought was most important, and maybe why they felt that way.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 1:00 PM

BADKARMA00


Kwicko wrote:
Saturday, May 09, 2009 12:41
I'd lay out the Bill of Rights as being somewhat vital. After all, the Founding Fathers thought enough of them to go ahead and enumerate them for posterity...

One thing, though - if you take away any of them, the rest tend to fall rather quickly.
-----------------

That's an excellent point, Kwicko. Once we lose one of those basic rights, the foundations of our society, then the box is open. If we can justify the loss of one, why not the others?

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 1:02 PM

BADKARMA00


chrisisall wrote:
Saturday, May 09, 2009 12:53
Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by badkarma00:
the right to due process.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That one hasn't been around in, like, a century or so.

-------------------

All too true, I'm afraid, at least in some cases. It's amazing what little rights are overlooked, such as the right to be taken before a magistrate before even being processed into a jail. No one does this, that I know of, anymore, but it's still the law. Legally, a magistrate must sign a litmus, ( I think that's the term) before you can be held.

But usually you are just hauled off to jail, and that's the end of it.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 1:03 PM

BADKARMA00


AURaptor wrote:
Saturday, May 09, 2009 11:38
The right to sing the blues, of course.
-------------

Always important! LOL

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 1:05 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by badkarma00:

But usually you are just hauled off to jail, and that's the end of it.


When the 'man' can behave how 'he' likes with no negative consequences, we are merely subjects, not individuals.

Hail to the king, baby.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 1:07 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
... if there's any question of whether either of them have the right to do a thing or not, assume that government does not, and that the people do, and proceed from there.



Indeed. I'd like to see this written in as the 0th amendment.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 1:16 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
... if there's any question of whether either of them have the right to do a thing or not, assume that government does not, and that the people do, and proceed from there.



Indeed. I'd like to see this written in as the 0th amendment.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock



And, ya know, it always seemed to me that it WAS in the Constitution - it's written between the lines. The rights that are enumerated in the Bill of Rights are really so broad and rather vague, and the constraints placed on the government are so narrow and specific, ("You can do this and this and this, and the government can only do that, and can NEVER DO THIS OR THIS OR THIS!") that it just always felt to me as if the framers were implying, if not outright saying, that any right not listed was the sole property of The People.

But so many law careers and entire libraries worth of law books have been written about all this that it seems they really SHOULD HAVE written it down in explicit detail.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 1:21 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

But so many law careers and entire libraries worth of law books have been written about all this that it seems they really SHOULD HAVE written it down in explicit detail.



"Listen -- strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony."



The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 1:24 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

One thing, though - if you take away any of them, the rest tend to fall rather quickly.


"Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system."



The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 1:35 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
And, ya know, it always seemed to me that it WAS in the Constitution - it's written between the lines. The rights that are enumerated in the Bill of Rights are really so broad and rather vague, and the constraints placed on the government are so narrow and specific, ("You can do this and this and this, and the government can only do that, and can NEVER DO THIS OR THIS OR THIS!") that it just always felt to me as if the framers were implying, if not outright saying, that any right not listed was the sole property of The People.



I like Hamiliton's quote (commenting on the ninth) "Why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do?"

Quote:

But so many law careers and entire libraries worth of law books have been written about all this that it seems they really SHOULD HAVE written it down in explicit detail.


What really gnaws at me is the mental gymnastics and rationalization you read in modern judicial interpretations of these issues. I sometimes think that what they're really thinking is "yeah, this is unconstitutional, but it's been going on for thirty years and it's gonna cause all kinds of headache to change it, so we're going to make up an excuse..."

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 2:55 PM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

But so many law careers and entire libraries worth of law books have been written about all this that it seems they really SHOULD HAVE written it down in explicit detail.



"Listen -- strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony."



The laughing Chrisisall



"If I claimed I was Emperor just because some watery tart lobbed a scimitar at me . . ."

Mal: You think she'll hold together?
Zoë: She's torn up plenty, but she'll fly true.
Mal: Could be bumpy.
Zoë: Always is

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 3:00 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:

"If I claimed I was Emperor just because some watery tart lobbed a scimitar at me . . ."


Shut up! SHUT UP!!


The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 3:05 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
"Why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do?"


Hamilton was obviously not into science fiction at that time.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 3:10 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Hamilton had his reasons for not wanting that level of protection, and played to Madisons naive idealism as well as throwing the "no one would dare" card a time or two himself...

But the thing with that is, what happened IMMEDIATELY after the Federalists got control over the Government ?

Hamilton, Jay, Madison, Adams and others went STRAIGHT for those loopholes they left in there quite deliberately, didn't they ?

And to a degree that so shocked and horrified Madison that he bailed out and hooked up with Jefferson against them in the first nullification crisis.

I still say Burr did us one hell of a favor.

Anyhow, it *IS* expressly mentioned in the Constitution, Amendment Ten.
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Bullshit rationalisations and usurpations aside, that means if they ain't specifically *allowed* to do it, NO.

Doesn't stop em none, and never did.

And you can thank John Jay for that - despite Pat Henry pointing out exactly how they would use unchecked Judicial power to re-interpret as needed, they still got away with it, too.

Those words are just that, words, on paper, and paper makes a lousy club and terrible armor.

The steel in those statements belongs in our fists, which is the purpose of Amendment Two, which has been so neutered and watered down by judicial usurpation and re-interpretation to distort it that it's all but meaningless.

We've been round and round on this - the only rights you REALLY got at all are the ones you're willing to kill and die for, which, lets face it, most people ain't.

And while they got the right to vote away or cast aside their OWN rights, when someone tries to do so to mine, unwilling - it's a violation of the non-aggression principle and every bit as much a threat as firing a weapon at me, I take *issue* with it, you understand ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 3:32 PM

BADKARMA00


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by badkarma00:

But usually you are just hauled off to jail, and that's the end of it.


When the 'man' can behave how 'he' likes with no negative consequences, we are merely subjects, not individuals.

Hail to the king, baby.


The laughing Chrisisall




SO very true, I'm afraid, but that's where we, as 'subjects' have to start standing up to the 'man', so to speak. So long as we allow people to run all over us, they will continue to do so. Once we start calling them on it, a great many of the 'powers that be' will stop.

Some don't, and require a more strenuous method of. . .persuasion, let's call it.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 3:37 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
But the thing with that is, what happened IMMEDIATELY after the Federalists got control over the Government ?

Hamilton, Jay, Madison, Adams and others went STRAIGHT for those loopholes they left in there quite deliberately, didn't they ?



Heh... I hear ya. I quoted Hamilton reluctantly, but that quote particularly suited my purpose, which was to point out that the framers intent isn't a matter of "interpretation". They knew what they meant. So do we, though we choose to ignore it.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 3:40 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Ayep.

And that don't necessarily mean a head to head confrontation, neither - it's actually quite easy once you aquire the necessary skills, to sandbag the hell out of the powers that be.

You might have noticed a lack of pre-emptive arrests and planted "evidence" by ringers and stooges this past May Day - cause folks are finally getting their shit together on information security and vetting their people.

If your opponent outclasses you on the field of honor, perhaps the best choice is not to meet them there, just sayin...

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, May 9, 2009 3:44 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
my purpose, which was to point out that the framers intent isn't a matter of "interpretation". They knew what they meant. So do we, though we choose to ignore it.


Oh yes, and given that they spend a HUGE amount of paper explaining it in every conceivable detail, in the Federalist and AntiFederalist papers, not to mention many speeches, the text of which is also available, they made sure beyond the shadow of a doubt.

Not that it makes a bloody difference, especially with public school "history" classes kinda sidestepping that whole matter, which imho is THE most important key to understanding american history as a whole.

Course, that presumes they WANT you to, which is another matter entire.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, May 10, 2009 1:49 AM

BADKARMA00


Quote:



Not that it makes a bloody difference, especially with public school "history" classes kinda sidestepping that whole matter, which imho is THE most important key to understanding american history as a whole.

Course, that presumes they WANT you to, which is another matter entire.

-Frem



-------------------

I've wondered some on that myself, Frem. Years ago, (many ago, lol) when I was in school, we studied the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers, as well as other initial arguments and positions taken by the Founding Fathers in what role government should play in our Republic.

Today, I find myself having to explain to my nephews and neices those things, as, sadly, they are no longer being taught. Instead, schools spend too much time studying FOREIGN culture, and teaching our children that we must respect and understand these cultures, even the ones who seem to want only to kill Americans. (though that's a discussion for another thread, I think).

It's been said more than once that the educational system of any government can all too easily be co-opted into a propoganda tool, and it seems that this theory is being played out before us even now. I have noticed that today's 'history' books tell a vastly different story than those used in my days. Sadly, these changes are not improvements, IMO.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Sunday, May 10, 2009 7:03 AM

FREMDFIRMA


BK, that's one of the things that started me down the road I took in life.

See, as a kid, if you wanted me to sit down/shut up/go away aka "behave".
(and this is a *ridiculous* thing to ask of children on the face of it, innit ?)
You had the option of giving me a book, I've been a voracious reader ever since I figured out how, which for reasons I've detailed elsewhere resulted in a slight speech impediment and the quirk of pronouncing everything as-written, cause I learned to read much earlier than using speech with any great facility.

Anyhows - we didn't have much in the way of internet, and certainly didn't have encyclopedias on CD, complete with multimedia presentations, which are frankly one of the greatest things since sliced bread, imho...

And I figure you can guess that a full set of encyclopedias didn't come cheap, so when lil Frem and momma discovered one dirt cheap at a yard sale and momma there pondered just how LONG that enormous stack of text would keep her wild child occupied, it was a foregone conclusion, and I spent the rest of the day lugging them home by foot, several at a time, and then read them cover to cover...

And then went all out BERSERK on the "history" teacher, emulating the speaking style and delivery of the historical figure who made the most sense to me, Patrick Henry - just image little Frem standing on the seat of his chair (I was so short I HAD to do this in order to be seen/heard) laying down a barrage, yes ?

See, they taught us that the Federalist papers were a mere explaination of events to us lessers from our betters so that we would understand their noble cause, yadda frikkin yadda, with not ONE SINGLE MENTION whatever, anywhere, of the Anti-Federalists or their arguments against!

Public School "History" - meet Encyclopedia Britannica, in the person of one seriously pissed off kid.

He never threw me out of that class, oddly enough, but that probably had to do with how our broadsides engaged and encouraged the rest of the class and improved grades by getting them involved - my nieces LOVE learning history from me, I at least make it interesting, yanno ?

Later, I found some discarded textbooks at another yard sale for a quarter a pop and bought the whole box, and have a great amusement in comparing them to each other - you can clearly trace the political and other distortions through the years, it's painfully obvious.

And thus, a skeptic was born.

One note of your post worth a mention is thus:
Quote:

teaching our children that we must respect and understand these cultures, even the ones who seem to want only to kill Americans.

This might sound irritating, but it's actually a good idea - cause respect, and understanding their reasoning, is not only the best chance of making peace with them - but also, if some elements of those cultures are hell bent on that course, understanding enough of the cultures involved to appeal to OTHER elements in hopes of mutually deposing those jerks.

Something I've touched on a time or two here, as one might recall - sure, you got fanatics who ain't gonna bury the hatchet, that happens, and we're not completely innocent neither, but once you understand (minus certain political and religious distortions) the folk you are dealing with and how to really connect with them, you can connect with THOSE people and let the fanatics die on the vine when they can get no one to listen to their wacky little plans no more.

And in extremis, understanding them also helps better ones defenses against the fanatics of those cultures and offers opportunities to use their own cultural and religious beliefs to sandbag the hell out of them.

For more information on some of the more odious aspects of public education, one might start here, with the work of John Taylor Gatto.
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, May 10, 2009 11:02 AM

BADKARMA00


I don't say it's bad idea, on it's own merit. I do think it's a bad idea when we replace the teaching of our OWN history, and how our OWN government should work. To me, that's far more important than what someone three thousand miles away thinks or does, since the odds of us meeting them are slim and none.

If there is time after learning those things about our own country, not to mention the 'reading, 'ritin' and 'rithmatic' that should be the foiundation of every good education, then by all means, enlighten our children about others. But not at the expense of denying them a quality education that includes at least the basics of how our government was formed, and how it's intended to function.

As for the Multimedia CD encyclopedia, I totally agree. I wish I'd had them when I was a kid, but alas, Atari was brand new then, and Windows was eons away, LOL.



Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Sunday, May 10, 2009 11:27 AM

AGENTROUKA


This is fascinating. The stereotype in Europe runs along the lines that Americans are taught zero about foreign cultures in their schools.

You present the case that they are taught too much too early.

... What are American kids taught about other cultures?

ETA: And when and how?

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Sunday, May 10, 2009 1:28 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:
Freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, the right to vote, the right to privacy, the right to due process.



Yes. That's why I'm having to sue my local govt, again, for banning my TV show. My lawyers will get paid $50,000, and all I'll get is an unpaid job on public access TV.
http://piratenews-tv.blogspot.com/2009/02/pirate-news-tv-banned.html

Plus 2nd Amendment right to self defense from an insane psychopathic gangster government run amok.

That's why Congress is trying to pass HR45 in the dead of night.
www.snopes.com/politics/guns/blairholt.asp
www.easttnriders.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30044
www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-45

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Sunday, May 10, 2009 1:31 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Im in agreement with Frem.

Our most important right is for those in "power" to....

LEAVE US THE FUCK ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Sunday, May 10, 2009 1:43 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by badkarma00:
To me, that's far more important than what someone three thousand miles away thinks or does, since the odds of us meeting them are slim and none.

If there is time after learning those things about our own country, not to mention the 'reading, 'ritin' and 'rithmatic' that should be the foiundation of every good education, then by all means, enlighten our children about others. But not at the expense of denying them a quality education that includes at least the basics of how our government was formed, and how it's intended to function.



I don't know. I suppose it's obvious enough that I think that the ideas embodied in our constitution are valuable. But if the only thing that can perpetuate them is cradle to grave indoctrination, they're not worth the paper they're written on.

FWIW, karma, though I realize you're not condoning such, the notion you put forward was present at the birth of the Straussian neo-con movement and central to their "new conservatism" ethos. The neo-cons were very enthusiastic about defeating the teaching of moral relativism in our schools, especially when it came to competing cultures. Though they recognized the legitimacy of the concept, they saw it as too complicated for young minds. In fact, they thought it was too complicated for most citizens. They felt if was vitally important for the unwashed masses to see their nation as the "good guys" even if it meant shoveling them a load of crap to accomplish. If you have time, check out "The Closing of the American Mind" written by Straussian protoge Alan Bloom in the late 80's. It's a rather creepifying look into the "scholarship" that culminated in the "Bush doctrine".


SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, May 10, 2009 3:34 PM

BADKARMA00


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
This is fascinating. The stereotype in Europe runs along the lines that Americans are taught zero about foreign cultures in their schools.

You present the case that they are taught too much too early.

... What are American kids taught about other cultures?

ETA: And when and how?



----------------------

I'm not really saying we shouldn't teach those things, mind you, but I do think that children in middle school grade have enough to cover without trying to learn what other countries are doing. Once they have at least a solid working knowledge of our own culture, as it is, THEN we can start teaching them how other cultures compare to our own. By that I mean, 'we see this item this way and took this action, but, in this OTHER nation, their people, due to perhaps THIS influence, chose another path'.

I actually prefer that our children learn about other nations, just not at the expense of their basic education.

As to what they are taught, and at what level, that often differs from school system to school system. Usually teaching about foreign cultures, what some call 'indoctrination', lol, begins around grade 5 in average. A few are actually earlier, I think, though most, that I know of, are a year or two later on.

As to what, again that depends on the system in question, but since 9/11 a great deal of emphasis has been placed on ensuring that our children 'understand' the militant Muslim's view, with what some see as an 'undergroud' attempt to justify what was done here on that day.

Most do, however, concentrate at least some on western european history, especially those nations that are our traditional allies, with regard to how those nations citizens lives compare to our own, and how their government differs from that of the US.

As I said, I don't have an issue with those things being taught, (aside from the apologetics for the militant Islamanazis), I just want to make sure that the children are getting a solid foundation education as well, in the basics. Math, reading, writing, and sciences. Once that's seen too, and properly, then the 'social studies' can be extended to other nations.

But again, that's just me.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Sunday, May 10, 2009 3:45 PM

BADKARMA00


Quote:

Originally posted by SergeantX:
Quote:

Originally posted by badkarma00:
To me, that's far more important than what someone three thousand miles away thinks or does, since the odds of us meeting them are slim and none.

If there is time after learning those things about our own country, not to mention the 'reading, 'ritin' and 'rithmatic' that should be the foiundation of every good education, then by all means, enlighten our children about others. But not at the expense of denying them a quality education that includes at least the basics of how our government was formed, and how it's intended to function.



I don't know. I suppose it's obvious enough that I think that the ideas embodied in our constitution are valuable. But if the only thing that can perpetuate them is cradle to grave indoctrination, they're not worth the paper they're written on.

FWIW, karma, though I realize you're not condoning such, the notion you put forward was present at the birth of the Straussian neo-con movement and central to their "new conservatism" ethos. The neo-cons were very enthusiastic about defeating the teaching of moral relativism in our schools, especially when it came to competing cultures. Though they recognized the legitimacy of the concept, they saw it as too complicated for young minds. In fact, they thought it was too complicated for most citizens. They felt if was vitally important for the unwashed masses to see their nation as the "good guys" even if it meant shoveling them a load of crap to accomplish. If you have time, check out "The Closing of the American Mind" written by Straussian protoge Alan Bloom in the late 80's. It's a rather creepifying look into the "scholarship" that culminated in the "Bush doctrine".


SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock



-------------------

I get what you're saying, Sarge, but I'm not one of those who think America is always right no matter what. We've had our share of mistakes, and will certainly make more.

I'm not advocating an America only policy in education. In fact, far from it. With todays 24 hr. "In your face" news shows, where anyone can instantly see an anti-american demonstration in another country, it's actually very important that our citizens know how other nations function, and why they seem to hate us, whether that hate is justified or not. IMO, it's usually not, but that's just me.

I'm not preaching isolationism. My statement covered only how things are taught to our kids in school. No lessons of foreign culture or society should be taught at the expense of a solid foundational education. Once those basic's are covered, then by all means, educate our kids about other nations. First our Allies, IMO, and then, time permitting, our enemies.

It's not that I see these lessons as unimportant. Far from it. I DO, however, see them as far less vital than ensuring that our kids have the tools they need to compete in the global job and business markets.

We've already screwed things up pretty well for the next genertation, and maybe next two. We owe it to them to make sure they're prepared to compete against the rest of the world, and without a solid education, they won't be able to.

That's all I'm saying. Our emphasis, our efforts, need to see to that priority above all.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Sunday, May 10, 2009 8:05 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by badkarma00:

I'm not really saying we shouldn't teach those things, mind you, but I do think that children in middle school grade have enough to cover without trying to learn what other countries are doing.



I didn't think you were against it as a whole, you had made that pretty clear.

I do wonder, though, since you say it differs from school to school, how much school time exactly is taken up by it, whether any deficits in the foundation education as you define it can really be due to an excessive focus on other cultures. (According to you, at the expense of their basic education.) Or whether any deficits might more likely be due to other problems.

Quote:


As to what they are taught, and at what level, that often differs from school system to school system. Usually teaching about foreign cultures, what some call 'indoctrination', lol, begins around grade 5 in average. A few are actually earlier, I think, though most, that I know of, are a year or two later on.



Why do some people call it indoctrination? Are students brain-washed into something?

Quote:


As to what, again that depends on the system in question, but since 9/11 a great deal of emphasis has been placed on ensuring that our children 'understand' the militant Muslim's view, with what some see as an 'undergroud' attempt to justify what was done here on that day.



Since I haven't witnessed it, I can't make a judgment, really, but in general it would seem like a very important thing to teach children today, considering the subject matter is all over the news. Wouldn't this actually help them understand the U.S. better, as well?

Quote:


As I said, I don't have an issue with those things being taught, (aside from the apologetics for the militant Islamanazis),



Is it really justification they teach, though? I just find that so unlikely, if you'll excuse my scepticism. Where do you draw the line between explaining and justifying?



But yes, my main point is really my question whether the time used to teach other cultures can realistically be blamed for whatever deficits in basic education like maths, reading and sciences that may currently exist, since you imply a correlation there.


I agree that students should be aware of and understand the form and function of their own government before they learn about others, but I doubt it takes them all that long to understand it, and that finer details can't be learned parallel to looking at other cultures and options. Considering the role the U.S. plays internationally, a solid foundation in the culture beyond its borders should be considered very prudents in its voting citizens, is what I figure.

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Sunday, May 10, 2009 8:29 PM

BADKARMA00


AgentRouka

As I initially pointed out, my most basic concern was that not enough of our own history is being taught. As for the differences from school to school, here's how it works, at least for public schools.

Federal mandates dictate what must, in general, be taught. So much time for this, so much for that, etc. Which, up to a point, I can accept, since, in theory, that makes sure that every school system is giving their students the very best education, rather than some schools slipping in certain areas, or canceling programs all together.

What happens then is that individual school boards, or in some cases, state boards of regents, (governing body for schools at state levels) design lesson plans based on that. Some schools opt for the far left 'america is evil and here's why'. I don't like that. I think we can openly point to our mistakes without vilifying our entire nation.

The trend of late has been to emphasize the study of foreign culture, and respect for that culture, at the expense of studying our own. This I DO have a problem with. Students should first be aware of our own system of government, and comfortable in the knowledge, before delving into anyone else's, IMO.

The indoctrination remark was a wise crack, nothing more, lol. Yes, some people feel that schools are 'brainwashing' as you call it, our children. I won't go that far, but I am often uncomfortable with some of the things they are being taught. That's a subject for another thread, I'd say, so I'll leave it at that.

And yes, sadly, some of it does amount to justification. This actually happens, more often than not, at the college level, but it's common enough in our high schools as well. Some in our educational system would teach our children that it's okay that terroists attack innocent people because they have a 'legitimate' grievance. I don't hold with that, nor is it something I want our children to learn. It's not a good example for young people, IMO.

And, yes, IMO, if students are struggling or failing in the basics I mentioned, and they are not getting a good background in our own national history, and our own civil government, then I do feel that time is better spent in teaching those things, first. Again, that's my opinion. School, first and foremost, is for education. The ability to develop skills that will enable our kids to function in the world they will inherit from us. Everything else, no matter how important it may seem, must be secondary to that.

As for the time it requires, it takes as long as it takes. When high school children can't even name a sitting president, or identify the frst president of the US, there's a problem. Again, that's probably a discussion for another time, but I hope I've answered your questions.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Sunday, May 10, 2009 9:37 PM

FREMDFIRMA


All else aside, the concept of setting education priority to our history and culture --> allies history and culture --> opponents history and culture ?

That's a pretty solid foundation for an idea, and the details can be worked out pretty easy, one thing I would add as an optional or early college elective would be a class on historical fanaticism, it's causes and historical/political impact - but the problem with that of course is that you'd have every belief accused of it, no matter how rightfully, screaming a fit despite one of the first things folk would learn there is that such nimrods NEVER represent the whole of a belief system.

And also, one issue that's been kind of a universal distortion no matter the political tides, is how we try to brush off and ignore our own failings and those of our leaders, which is foolish as well as poor education - parents do it with their own flaws, hell, it seems like all adults have serious issues with admitting their own flaws and mistake to a kid, but doin that robs the kid of a chance to learn from YOUR mistakes, instead of someday having to blunder through and repeat history - and so it is too with our people and politicians, show the mistakes, LEARN from them.

Or keep making them, over and over.

I teach a bit of history to the socrates club too, pretty good amount of it sometimes, cause unlike whatever the curriculum these days is...
(I don't ask cause the answer would just send me into a futile and profane ranting fit)
But the usual sanitised idol-worshipping gloss overs of our historical figures, especially founders and presidents, are fucking BORING as hell.

These were not gods or idols, they were people, folk of strong character, but with their own flaws, misconceptions, and bad habits, just like anyone else, and to gloss over those is to misrepresent them.

Besides which, often it's those very flaws which can make a discussion of history so *interesting*...

Like, say.. Ben Franklin, who was NOT anywhere near as straitlaced as often presented, oh HELL no.

Folks, Ole Bennie got more ass than a toilet seat, for one, and while he only publicly acknowledged one of his off-sheet progeny (who became a Tory and a Governor in his own right) there's little doubt he left a goodly trail of jilted mistresses a little swollen around the middle, if ya know what I mean.

And he was in some ways the very epitome of mad scientist, cranking out inventions and philosophies by the fistfull, some outlandish, some bizarre yet compellingly interesting (glass armonica) and some downright functionally useful, like Bifocals and the lightning rod.

Add in a dash of political intrigue bordering on downright espionage and well...

Dude, he was like James friggin Bond and Q all rolled into one - and while he did believe quite strongly in his thirteen virtues and was a practical deist, he would hold strongly to only one per week, which on many an occasion would see him blinded-eyes drunk!
(especially when he was suffering from gout, as boozing up was about all you could do for it back then.)

There's a national guard unit in Lancaster that originally evolved from a couple militia who used to carry him home when he was too plastered to walk so he didn't pass out on the cold earth and catch his death, mind you.

Also not brought up in most accounts is that not only was he ultimately crafty and eloquent, he was also a comsumate and unrepentant smartass, and could be downright scathing towards intolerance or racism, case in point -

"If an Indian injures me, does it follow that I may revenge that Injury on all Indians? It is well known that Indians are of different Tribes, Nations and Languages, as well as the White People. In Europe, if the French, who are White People, should injure the Dutch, are they to revenge it on the English, because they too are White People? The only Crime of these poor Wretches seems to have been, that they had a reddish brown Skin, and black Hair; and some People of that Sort, it seems, had murdered some of our Relations. If it be right to kill Men for such a Reason, then, should any Man, with a freckled Face and red Hair, kill a Wife or Child of mine, it would be right for me to revenge it, by killing all the freckled red-haired Men, Women and Children, I could afterwards any where meet with."
http://www.historycarper.com/resources/twobf3/massacre.htm

And you read all this, fascinated, didn't you ?
As opposed to the account you no doubt slept through in history class...

I say if a history teacher cannot retain the interest of their students enough to teach them something, then they have failed at their assigned duty, leastways in my opinion.

And if you're going "Wow, Benny was more interesting than I thought!", well, there's always Wiki for ya, and the internet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin

To not teach history in all it's glorious detail, good, bad and ugly, does it a disservice, and to not relate it in a way that connects to the people you're trying to teach is even more of one.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, May 11, 2009 2:01 PM

BADKARMA00


My point exactly, Frem. It's not just enough to teach the 'school house rock' version, just as it's wrong to vilify us as the root of all evil.

Admit where and when we were wrong, and why. As you said, it might, I say MIGHT, keep the next generation from doing the same stupid stuff we did.

That's really all I'd like to see.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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