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Obama, our dear & fluffy saviour...

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Sunday, July 5, 2009 16:07
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Monday, June 29, 2009 11:00 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
I had a feeling you'd come back with the "My son is the perfect human being" response. Typical. Just my luck

*********************************************

"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"



Don't you think they all start off as perfect human beings?



Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.



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Monday, June 29, 2009 11:23 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
I had a feeling you'd come back with the "My son is the perfect human being" response. Typical. Just my luck


Hey- when I was a kid I was a natural born troublemaker- I honestly don't know how he turned out so virtuous so young!
Plus, I know a girl who's pretty near a saint. How'd your original sin miss them?


The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, June 29, 2009 11:24 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Don't you think they all start off as perfect human beings?




Naw, they owe, like the sons of peeps in debter's prisons or something.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, June 29, 2009 12:21 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

chrisisall- Hey- when I was a kid I was a natural born troublemaker- I honestly don't know how he turned out so virtuous so young!
Plus, I know a girl who's pretty near a saint. How'd your original sin miss them?



so where do people go wrong? let me guess, its 'society'? if only we had this perfect utopian model of governance, where govt provided healthcare, and education, and shelter, and food.. we would be free from all the iniquities that have plagued mankind for 'hundreds of thousands of years'...

it doesnt suprise me then that you would be willing to steal my autonomy, and hand over yours, to big brother.. so that maybe the state can run our lives for us better then we can


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Monday, June 29, 2009 12:26 PM

ANTIMASON


this is getting off subject...

Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Exactly the way I feel about it. I won't dignify any "god" that would decide your eternal fate based on what you might do in your short span as a mortal here on Earth.



i know huh? if i want to rape and murder, steal or commit adultery, who cares? its all relative. we should be able to do what we want, and if we get caught, well then.. we'll decide what the punishment is, based on.. well, how whoever catches you feels that day. thats a beautiful model for mankind to govern itself by. it makes me wonder why human history is plagued by these evils? but then, its not evil, if you cant define absolute right or wrongs


Quote:

I won't believe in any being that would condemn you to eternal torment simply for refusing to acquiesce to his megalomania. It's why I could never support Dubya Bush. ;)


clearly you do not understand the premise of the bible; mankind has never 'acquiesced' to Gods laws, hence the predicament we're in

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Monday, June 29, 2009 12:49 PM

MALACHITE


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

...but I just don't find it consistent with a God that is actually worthy to be worshipped.


Exactly the way I feel about it. I won't dignify any "god" that would decide your eternal fate based on what you might do in your short span as a mortal here on Earth. I won't believe in any being that would condemn you to eternal torment simply for refusing to acquiesce to his megalomania. It's why I could never support Dubya Bush. ;)

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.





Had to laugh at the Bush barb... I also agree with the seeming injustice of one's eternal fate being decided by your decisions about God during your lifespan. Especially when God keeps himself somewhat hidden so as not to undermine a person's free will. It is something I still struggle with and have to trust that God knows something I don't... (And, of course, any God that is worth anything at all should know more than I do...)

Anyways, back to talking about what a god that would be worth worshipping would look like: I think it would be hard for a truly omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent all-creating personal entity to not be perceived as a bit of a megalomaniac. I mean, God (metaphorically at any rate) really is the center of the universe, afterall... What is crazy to me is that when he chose to manifest himself as a human in the form of Christ, he did it not as some glorious king with riches and power, but as a humble servant to humanity who allowed himself to be killed by people who hated and misunderstood him. It is a rather odd step to take. He could have just been like, "Behold! I am Jebus! Fear me! Worship me! Give money to me! Boo!" But I think it reveals another aspect of his character, that despite being the center of the universe, he still chose to humble himself when he became a human... A move not consistent with a megalomaniac.

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Monday, June 29, 2009 1:01 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
this is getting off subject...

Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Exactly the way I feel about it. I won't dignify any "god" that would decide your eternal fate based on what you might do in your short span as a mortal here on Earth.



i know huh? if i want to rape and murder, steal or commit adultery, who cares? its all relative. we should be able to do what we want, and if we get caught, well then.. we'll decide what the punishment is, based on.. well, how whoever catches you feels that day. thats a beautiful model for mankind to govern itself by. it makes me wonder why human history is plagued by these evils? but then, its not evil, if you cant define absolute right or wrongs




So you're one of those who believe there was NO morality extant in the world before the bible was written down, huh? The golden rule is probably another "christian" invention in your mind, I'm sure. Are you so weak-minded that you don't know right from wrong unless some idiot preacher tells you, or unless you read it in some translation of a bad translation of a bad translation, without having any idea what was originally written or intended?

How much of your beloved book do YOU follow? Do you stone your wife to death if she wears clothes of different fibers? Do you kill those who would touch a pig? Will you be the one to kill Governor Sanford for committing adultery?

And when is "murder", murder? When it's committed in the name of an unjust and illegal war of occupation? When it's committed in the name of vengeance and vendetta? When it's committed by "accidentally" torturing someone to death and calling it "enhanced interrogation"? Who decides what gets called murder? Such atrocities and more have been committed in the name of your god. He's the world's greatest serial killer, and rather than condemn him, you celebrate his evil deeds.

Quote:


Quote:

I won't believe in any being that would condemn you to eternal torment simply for refusing to acquiesce to his megalomania. It's why I could never support Dubya Bush. ;)


clearly you do not understand the premise of the bible; mankind has never 'acquiesced' to Gods laws, hence the predicament we're in






There IS no coherent "premise" of the bible. It's a mess, full of contradictions, half-truths, and damned lies.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.



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Monday, June 29, 2009 1:05 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:


So am I to take this as you advocation the abolition of public education?



i think every tax payer should be given a voucher, so that you can choose among competing public/private schools where you want your money to go. competition benefits everyone.. complete hemogenization doesnt, for obvious reasons. besides, we shouldnt even have a dept. of Education, its unconstitutional.

Quote:

[sarcasm]Yeah, I can totally see how that will make us a better-educated nation...[/sarcasm]


it would, but itll never happen because you statist lemmings want to force your uber progressive collectivist mush on everybodys childred; apparently you feel you have that right. you could call it intellectual fascism; the exclusion of competitive thought, if youre honest with yourself


Quote:


Ration based on eligibility? What the hell are you even talking about?



do you want some links from socialized medical countries, where women are denied breast cancer treatments because of cost? or elderly people denied because of their 'cost/benefit anaylsis'? youre suggesting that some disconnected government body decide whether youre eligible to be treated, what the treatment can be, and when you will recieve it. are you not? its the inevitable outcome.

Quote:

Do you have health insurance? If you do, aren't you asking your insurance company to ration resources based on eligibility? After all, if you pay your premiums, you're "eligible" - and if you don't, you aren't, and therefore THOSE resources are rationed out to someone who IS eligible (i.e., paying premiums). Get it?


the difference being, i can choose my insurance company, or i can pay out of pocket. the government will put private insurers out of business, you cannot compete with an entity that is not required to balance its books.. its common sense. then what are you left with? a limited amount of resources, controlled by a single body. im not advocating that the current system is ideal, its a mess. but what you want is the government to control the population, you just arent willing to admit it

Quote:

And yeah, I can totally get where you think wanting healthcare available to all is exactly like favoring euthanasia and abortion. 'Cause THAT makes perfect sense...


'healthcare for all', 'free healthcare'... come one come all!

first, nothings free.. when you give something away without cost, you inherintly limit its availability, it distorts supply and demand. the government is inefficient, there will be so much waste that itll be immeasurable. the allocation will be artificially distributed.

secondly, dont think that this wont be used as a means of population control. if you want to control society, how better then the access of critical treatment?


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Monday, June 29, 2009 1:23 PM

CHRISISALL


Anti, you clearly demonstrate that not only can't you understand Kwick's or my arguments, you WON'T.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, June 29, 2009 1:24 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

So you're one of those who believe there was NO morality extant in the world before the bible was written down, huh? The golden rule is probably another "christian" invention in your mind, I'm sure. Are you so weak-minded that you don't know right from wrong unless some idiot preacher tells you, or unless you read it in some translation of a bad translation of a bad translation, without having any idea what was originally written or intended?



thats an easy assertion to make, given that human history has been predisposed to judeo/christian morals for almost 4,000yrs. you have no way of knowing where we'd be otherwise.. we might still be doing human sacrifices, or, at the extreme secular end, we'd be killing old people and the impaired because they were 'useless eaters', unproductive to the 'collective'.. like the (socialist)Nazi party did

Quote:

How much of your beloved book do YOU follow? Do you stone your wife to death if she wears clothes of different fibers? Do you kill those who would touch a pig? Will you be the one to kill Governor Sanford for committing adultery?


no, instead, we let rapists and murderers go on living, and adulterers slide without consequence. in light of the complete social breakdown, it would be impossible to return to a state of innocence, as existed in the garden of eden. youre talking about laws that were intended to govern a small, specific group of people 3-4000 years ago. i bet you thought twice about taking something that wasnt yours, if you got caught and lost your hand.. but then, maybe theft isnt wrong? who knows right?

Quote:

And when is "murder", murder?
when you take an innocent life with intent

Quote:

When it's committed in the name of an unjust and illegal war of occupation? When it's committed in the name of vengeance and vendetta? When it's committed by "accidentally" torturing someone to death and calling it "enhanced interrogation"?


youre such a partisan.. show me in the bible where your examples are justified? theyre not in their, these are acts committed by sovereign beings, with their own justifications

Quote:

Who decides what gets called murder? Such atrocities and more have been committed in the name of your god.



listen, understand.. mankind has a 'fallen nature', does it suprise you imperfect people do unjust corrupt things in the name of their God? does it suprise you that people with no absolute beliefs do the same things? id be willing to bet youre not exactly Jesus Christ himself either.. can i blame your (lack) of beliefs? its the same arguement

Quote:

He's the world's greatest serial killer, and rather than condemn him, you celebrate his evil deeds.


more people have died this century, through communist expansion and secular empirism, then all the religious wars in history combined. i could argue the logical extent to athiesm is the greatest murderer of all, but im willing to concede that at the end of the day, the individual, in his sinfull nature, does what HE WANTS REGARDLESS

Quote:


There IS no coherent "premise" of the bible. It's a mess, full of contradictions, half-truths, and damned lies.



and what are your beliefs founded upon? your mood? your current state of enlightenment? tell me how you maintain a society when murder, theft and false testimony are 'relative' to the instant, the individual or the circumstance? its impossible

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Monday, June 29, 2009 1:26 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
these are acts committed by sovereign beings, with their own justifications


So, murder's not murder depending... okaaaaay.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, June 29, 2009 1:31 PM

ANTIMASON


God gave us free will.. you dont have to listen to his commandments. mankind has had it our way for 6k years, and this is where we are

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Monday, June 29, 2009 1:35 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:

listen, understand.. mankind has a 'fallen nature'



I'VE FALLEN...AND I CAN'T GET UP!

Gone on any Crusades lately, Anti?


The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, June 29, 2009 1:36 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

when you take an innocent life with intent



Then there IS no murder. After all, several of you "christians" have argued that there is no innocence, that we are all "fallen". So no one can take an innocent life, since there is no such thing!

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Monday, June 29, 2009 1:37 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
So, murder's not murder depending... okaaaaay.


Do you even try to understand other people's positions?

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Monday, June 29, 2009 1:38 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Anti, you clearly demonstrate that not only can't you understand Kwick's or my arguments, you WON'T.


The laughing Chrisisall



not to mention, are we going to give the 30+ million illegals "free" healthcare too? whos gonna pay for that? should i share my portion of rationed resources with them? talk about incentive to enter illegally


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Monday, June 29, 2009 1:49 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

Do you even try to understand other people's positions?

I would respond to that, but I don't answer cowards & pisspots.



The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, June 29, 2009 1:51 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Then there IS no murder. After all, several of you "christians" have argued that there is no innocence, that we are all "fallen". So no one can take an innocent life, since there is no such thing!



you got me on that one.. i guess youre right, there is no murder. what a relief huh? so i can break into your house and kill you, and thats no different from sentencing a multiple rapist to death. id love to see that societal computer model

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Monday, June 29, 2009 1:51 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Then there IS no murder. After all, several of you "christians" have argued that there is no innocence, that we are all "fallen". So no one can take an innocent life, since there is no such thing!

Gonna go on a guilty-only killin' rampage (that's everyone, I reckon) then! Who's with me?!?!?


The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, June 29, 2009 1:53 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:


So am I to take this as you advocating the abolition of public education?



i think every tax payer should be given a voucher, so that you can choose among competing public/private schools where you want your money to go. competition benefits everyone.. complete hemogenization doesnt, for obvious reasons. besides, we shouldnt even have a dept. of Education, its unconstitutional.



So is the Air Force. Shall we do away with the concept of air superiority?

And okay, let's say you give out the vouchers; what "private" schools can you send your kids to that are free of religious indoctrination? And if you can't find any, how will you choose between which kids go to christian schools and which ones go to madrassas?

Competition benefits everyone? Then why don't you want the government to compete with the insurance companies for our healthcare dollars? You want public and private education options, according to what you just said - why won't you extend that to healthcare?

Quote:



Quote:

[sarcasm]Yeah, I can totally see how that will make us a better-educated nation...[/sarcasm]


it would, but itll never happen because you statist lemmings want to force your uber progressive collectivist mush on everybodys childred; apparently you feel you have that right. you could call it intellectual fascism; the exclusion of competitive thought, if youre honest with yourself



Wooooooohhhh - Now I'm a "statist lemming". What "mush" would YOU force on everybody's "childred"? What "right" do you feel that YOU have in that regard?

Quote:


Quote:


Ration based on eligibility? What the hell are you even talking about?



do you want some links from socialized medical countries, where women are denied breast cancer treatments because of cost? or elderly people denied because of their 'cost/benefit anaylsis'? youre suggesting that some disconnected government body decide whether youre eligible to be treated, what the treatment can be, and when you will recieve it. are you not? its the inevitable outcome.




And you're suggesting that some disconnected insurance executive decide whether you're eligible. Same delays, same denials, different bureaucrats. I'll take my chances with the "not-for-profit" option, thank you.

Quote:


Quote:

Do you have health insurance? If you do, aren't you asking your insurance company to ration resources based on eligibility? After all, if you pay your premiums, you're "eligible" - and if you don't, you aren't, and therefore THOSE resources are rationed out to someone who IS eligible (i.e., paying premiums). Get it?


the difference being, i can choose my insurance company, or i can pay out of pocket. the government will put private insurers out of business, you cannot compete with an entity that is not required to balance its books.. its common sense. then what are you left with? a limited amount of resources, controlled by a single body. im not advocating that the current system is ideal, its a mess. but what you want is the government to control the population, you just arent willing to admit it




So if we ADD a public option, private, for-profit insurance companies won't be able to compete with it? They're so much more efficient, and government is so much LESS efficient, that they'll be driven out of business, eh? Let's look at some places where we've had private and public options; let's look at the mail. The US Post Office can get your letter across the country in two to three days for $4.80 these days. Private, for-profit companies can do it just as quickly, but charge you more like $12-15 for the same letter. Curiously, both still exist. The US Post Office exists, and inefficient as it is, it still manages to do the job for less than either UPS or FedEx. And DHL was so efficient it went out of business! :)


Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.



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Monday, June 29, 2009 1:53 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:


you got me on that one.. i guess youre right


Good. So we can agree to hand over all our health care money to the Iraqis, and kill sinners, and allow dogs & cats to live together. I'm down with that.



The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, June 29, 2009 1:59 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

So if we ADD a public option

Mike, you can't simply add that option, Anti has said that the privates would be shut down, and he knows, just like he knows you and I carry around original sin.
BTW, Walmart has a new more ergonomic carrying case for original sin, make it a lot less cumbersome and it's inexpensive to boot!


The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, June 29, 2009 2:02 PM

ANTIMASON


chris, you do realize Obama and socialist dems have quadrupled our national debt in a matter of months right? im not an Iraq war apologist, thank you.. i dont believe in ANY KIND OF INTERVENTION! but wheres youre objectivity, obama spent more on his failed stimulus, then we spend a year on our entire military budget. bitch all you want about Iraq, its irrelevant.. watch what the collectivists do in this country

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Monday, June 29, 2009 2:03 PM

BYTEMITE


I'm a scientist, yet I have NO problem with people wanting to send their kids to school where they hear creationism instead of evolution. I figure if those kids already believe something so strongly, providing a counterpoint isn't going to convince them. Plus, I'd actually kind of prefer if creationists continued to hate science and didn't enter into scientific careers. Please, by all means believe science is heretical.

My problem is that vouchers, don't JUST include for private RELIGIOUS institutions, but private prep schools, as well. Because rich people are going to want their kids there, and so of COURSE they're going to slip that little bit in. And then it's rich people taking advantage, and I sort of don't want to see what'll happen when they no longer pay taxes to help support the public school system. Basically, a voucher system isn't going to make the schooling system more competitive, it's going to kill public schools and brain drain the average middle class Americans.

Which is what the powers that be want, both parties. An easily controlled population/labour force.

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Monday, June 29, 2009 2:14 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:


So is the Air Force. Shall we do away with the concept of air superiority?



thats apples and oranges. the founders would be sickened by a uniform curriculm. the air force is to provide for the common defense

Quote:

And okay, let's say you give out the vouchers; what "private" schools can you send your kids to that are free of religious indoctrination? And if you can't find any, how will you choose between which kids go to christian schools and which ones go to madrassas?


thats the point, you can send them wherever you want. dont send them to a christian private school, there are plenty out there. why should my kids be subjected to the 'situtational ethics' of statism, or the defunct theory of evolution?

Quote:

competition benefits everyone? Then why don't you want the government to compete with the insurance companies for our healthcare dollars? You want public and private education options, according to what you just said - why won't you extend that to healthcare?


because government prints its own money?? hello.. how does a private company compete against the public option, when the govt doesnt have to balance its budget?

Quote:



Wooooooohhhh - Now I'm a "statist lemming". What "mush" would YOU force on everybody's "childred"? What "right" do you feel that YOU have in that regard?



i have the right to send my child anywhere i choose, with my allocated tax voucher


Quote:


And you're suggesting that some disconnected insurance executive decide whether you're eligible. Same delays, same denials, different bureaucrats. I'll take my chances with the "not-for-profit" option, thank you.



clearly the medical insurance system needs reformed, but the more competition between companies the better off the consumer is

Quote:

So if we ADD a public option, private, for-profit insurance companies won't be able to compete with it? They're so much more efficient, and government is so much LESS efficient, that they'll be driven out of business, eh?


yes, because they cant print money out of thin air to fund bloated out of control wastefull spending


Quote:

lets look at some places where we've had private and public options; let's look at the mail. The US Post Office can get your letter across the country in two to three days for $4.80 these days. Private, for-profit companies can do it just as quickly, but charge you more like $12-15 for the same letter. Curiously, both still exist. The US Post Office exists, and inefficient as it is, it still manages to do the job for less than either UPS or FedEx. And DHL was so efficient it went out of business! :)


you do know the US post office is 2.8 BILLION in the red right? well no wonder they can undercut a private company. thank you for proving my point for me



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Monday, June 29, 2009 2:17 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Anti, you clearly demonstrate that not only can't you understand Kwick's or my arguments, you WON'T.


The laughing Chrisisall



not to mention, are we going to give the 30+ million illegals "free" healthcare too? whos gonna pay for that? should i share my portion of rationed resources with them? talk about incentive to enter illegally




You're starting to sound an awful lot like PirateNews now, what with the ever-increasing number of illegals. One minute it's 12 million, the next it's 30 million.

Oh, and isn't that the biggest gripe y'all have anyway? The idea that health care is only expensive because illegals are driving up the costs to the rest of us? So, are we covering "the illegals" now or aren't we?

Hey, maybe we should all have a national ID card to be eligible...



Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.



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Monday, June 29, 2009 2:20 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

So if we ADD a public option

Mike, you can't simply add that option, Anti has said that the privates would be shut down, and he knows, just like he knows you and I carry around original sin.
BTW, Walmart has a new more ergonomic carrying case for original sin, make it a lot less cumbersome and it's inexpensive to boot!


The laughing Chrisisall



Ya know, I *DO* need a new bag for my sin. Something that will go with these new shoes. But my sin's far from original - it's just the same old sin in a brand new wrapper.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.



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Monday, June 29, 2009 2:22 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Then there IS no murder. After all, several of you "christians" have argued that there is no innocence, that we are all "fallen". So no one can take an innocent life, since there is no such thing!



you got me on that one.. i guess youre right, there is no murder. what a relief huh? so i can break into your house and kill you, and thats no different from sentencing a multiple rapist to death. id love to see that societal computer model



Hey, YOU'RE the one who wanted everyone to follow that stupid book. I'm just playing the game by your rules.

Wanna break into my house and try your luck? Go for it.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.



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Monday, June 29, 2009 2:31 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

You're starting to sound an awful lot like PirateNews now, what with the ever-increasing number of illegals. One minute it's 12 million, the next it's 30 million.



theyve been claiming 20 million for a decade now.. its realistically much higher. its a legitimate question, and you treat it mockingly, as if even 12 million illegals drawing from a taxpayer funded healthcare system is negligable

Quote:

Oh, and isn't that the biggest gripe y'all have anyway? The idea that health care is only expensive because illegals are driving up the costs to the rest of us? So, are we covering "the illegals" now or aren't we?


have you live in, or been to souther CA? there were hostital closings almost yearly, because there are millions of illegals using services that they dont contribute to. its perfectly legitimate.. but the liberals, and i assume youre one, think its a laughing matter. yet another reason not to turn my healthcare over to those on your side of the arguement

Quote:

Hey, maybe we should all have a national ID card to be eligible...



you say that mockingly, itll be a pro- Obamacare advocate to propose it when its appropriate, God forbid it passes

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Monday, June 29, 2009 2:32 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
I would respond to that, but I don't answer cowards & pisspots.


And yet Antimason does, go figure.

And please explain to Kwicko how to properly format his responses with quotes. I find it very amusing that the 'grammer-nazi' can not respond in a clear and legible manner.

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Monday, June 29, 2009 2:39 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:


So is the Air Force. Shall we do away with the concept of air superiority?



thats apples and oranges. the founders would be sickened by a uniform curriculm. the air force is to provide for the common defense



As for the air force, it's not mentioned in the Constitution, is it? I mean, isn't that your argument against public education? Isn't public education to provide for the common welfare?

Quote:


Quote:

competition benefits everyone? Then why don't you want the government to compete with the insurance companies for our healthcare dollars? You want public and private education options, according to what you just said - why won't you extend that to healthcare?


because government prints its own money?? hello.. how does a private company compete against the public option, when the govt doesnt have to balance its budget?



Have you not looked at the balance sheets of private corporations lately?

Quote:


Quote:


And you're suggesting that some disconnected insurance executive decide whether you're eligible. Same delays, same denials, different bureaucrats. I'll take my chances with the "not-for-profit" option, thank you.



clearly the medical insurance system needs reformed, but the more competition between companies the better off the consumer is



Just as long as the government doesn't try to compete with them, eh?

Quote:


Quote:

So if we ADD a public option, private, for-profit insurance companies won't be able to compete with it? They're so much more efficient, and government is so much LESS efficient, that they'll be driven out of business, eh?


yes, because they cant print money out of thin air to fund bloated out of control wastefull spending



Whereas private companies have to rely on things like credit-default swaps and derivatives to print their money out of thin air...

Quote:


Quote:

lets look at some places where we've had private and public options; let's look at the mail. The US Post Office can get your letter across the country in two to three days for $4.80 these days. Private, for-profit companies can do it just as quickly, but charge you more like $12-15 for the same letter. Curiously, both still exist. The US Post Office exists, and inefficient as it is, it still manages to do the job for less than either UPS or FedEx. And DHL was so efficient it went out of business! :)


you do know the US post office is 2.8 BILLION in the red right? well no wonder they can undercut a private company. thank you for proving my point for me






You do know that the private insurance companies are far more than that much in the red, right? Tell me again, what business is AIG in? Didn't we just give them $180 billion to cover their "balanced" budget sheets? Thank you for proving my point for me - private companies are, if anything, LESS competitive than government programs, and far more wasteful. How much money have we thrown at Blackwater for their operations in Iraq? How much of that money has just VANISHED?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.



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Monday, June 29, 2009 2:39 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Hey, YOU'RE the one who wanted everyone to follow that stupid book. I'm just playing the game by your rules.



im not forcing anyone to follow it, youve made that choice on your own, despite all the crying that religions 'being forced' on you

Quote:

Wanna break into my house and try your luck? Go for it.


i dont, because i respect your right as an individual to life, liberty and property(or the pursuit of happiness). i also respect your constitutional right to bare a weapon to defend yourself..

all of which are biblical concepts. the right to keep the fruits of your labor(private property), the right to free speech and to worship as you see fit(free will), etc.. these all are judeo-christian concepts. you dont have to believe in my God, but acknowledge that we wouldnt have the freedoms we have, had our founders not been theistic/deistic people with a firm understanding of absolute rights.

see where agnostic/athiestic idealogies leave you. there is no private property or gun rights in socialized/communist countries for a reason- its the logical extend of their beliefs


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Monday, June 29, 2009 2:48 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Whereas private companies have to rely on things like credit-default swaps and derivatives to print their money out of thin air...



the free market didnt create those loop-holes, government regulation did. and i suppose you blame capitalism on the economies failings?



Quote:


You do know that the private insurance companies are far more than that much in the red, right? Tell me again, what business is AIG in? Didn't we just give them $180 billion to cover their "balanced" budget sheets? Thank you for proving my point for me



you only served to prove why AIG should have been allowed to fail, rather then.. have the government swoop in and take them over, like they want to do with healthcare

Quote:

private companies are, if anything, LESS competitive than government programs, and far more wasteful. How much money have we thrown at Blackwater for their operations in Iraq? How much of that money has just VANISHED?


maybe the government should be in the business? you keep making references to Iraq, clearly youre a liberal partisan who think it was Bush and CHeney who ruined this country. Obama will drive this country further into a depression(hes had how many months? and things continue to get worse.. despite spending trillions on 'stimulus'), and yet you will still blame Bush and the republicans. get over it! besides, the dems have run congress for the last 3 years, where all the spending bills originate.. maybe they deserve some blame

iraq iraq boohoo hoo... Obama is gonna go into afghanistan and envolve us in a debacle just like Bush did, open your eyes and get over it.. they have the same globalist handlers. the same globalists who want to take over your healthcare


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Monday, June 29, 2009 2:52 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
I would respond to that, but I don't answer cowards & pisspots.


And yet Antimason does, go figure.

And please explain to Kwicko how to properly format his responses with quotes. I find it very amusing that the 'grammer-nazi' can not respond in a clear and legible manner.



And I find it amusing that you can't spell "grammar", so I guess we're both laughing.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.



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Monday, June 29, 2009 2:56 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


see where agnostic/athiestic idealogies leave you. there is no private property or gun rights in socialized/communist countries for a reason- its the logical extend of their beliefs



Can you give me some examples? I mean, besides the obvious one - China - can you give me some other examples of "socialized" countries where you have no private property or gun rights?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.



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Monday, June 29, 2009 3:03 PM

ANTIMASON


i accidentally erased the orignal post-

soviet Russia-


Quote:

The Soviet Union was a single-party state where the Communist Party ruled the country.[1] All key positions in the institutions of the state were occupied by members of the Communist Party. The state proclaimed its adherence to Marxism-Leninism ideology that restricts rights of citizens to private property. The entire population was mobilized in support of the state ideology and policies. Independent political activities were not tolerated, including the involvement of people with free labour unions, private corporations, non-sanctioned churches or opposition political parties. The regime maintained itself in political power in part by means of the secret police, propaganda disseminated through the state-controlled mass media, personality cult, restriction of free discussion and criticism, the use of mass surveillance, and widespread use of terror tactics, such as political purges and persecution of specific groups of people.





if we're talking about truly egregious, how about Nazi germany. they were literally the national socialist party before they were 'nazis', and it was the belief in evolution, survival of the fittest, and darwinism, that justified their extermination of the so-called 'use-less eaters' and the 'genetically inferior' of their country. its blatant

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Monday, June 29, 2009 3:27 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
And I find it amusing that you can't spell "grammar", so I guess we're both laughing.


Oh, I'm laughing alright. Just pull the strings and make him dance.

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Monday, June 29, 2009 3:28 PM

ANTIMASON


the point being most socialist countries have a degree of Marxism inherent in them. Marx was an avowed atheist, he completely resented the concept of God

Quote:

Columbia Encyclopedia entry: Marxism

Marxism, economic and political philosophy named for Karl Marx. It is also known as scientific (as opposed to utopian) socialism. Marxism has had a profound impact on contemporary culture; modern communism is based on it, and most modern socialist theories derive from it (see socialism). It has also had tremendous effect on academia, influencing disciplines from economics to philosophy and literary history.


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Monday, June 29, 2009 3:48 PM

ANTIMASON


heritage.org has a great article on the differences between the French and American(along with British)revolutions. this further emphasizes my point between the collectivist/statist view of 'rights', and the classical AMerican libertarian view:

Quote:

The American Declaration maintains that from man's place in the natural order arises the principle of human equality: "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights." But at the end of the Declaration, the Revolution's leaders proclaim their willingness to risk "our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor" for the cause, implying a certain inequality among men. A special set of risk-takers, the signers of the Declaration, were willing to lead the Revolution and take upon themselves the important responsibility of saying that King George III was now a tyrant.

So is man equal or unequal in the American scheme? He is both. In his fundamental rights, he is equal, but not every human being has the same talents and capacities. The very equality that exists by nature and forms the baseline of our politics also makes it possible for certain inequalities—like abilities for statesmanship and political leadership—to come to the fore and play their natural role in life.

The French view of natural rights, in contrast, is a Rousseauian view. In the Rousseauian model for the social contract, when individuals form a society—when unaffiliated individuals in a state of nature decide to affiliate—they give up or alienate everything to society, including their powers, possessions, and natural rights. Under the American doctrine, however, individuals never give up their nature: The natural rights of individuals are inalienable. In some sense, they are always behind one's civil rights—behind the positive rights.

Furthermore, if government becomes oppressive or tyrannical, the people have the right to alter or abolish that government—a right of revolutionary action against the government. Strangely enough, there is no right of revolution in Rousseau's republic or the French Republic. Once individuals have joined society, nothing personal remains to them. Citizens receive only what society decides to return to them on an equal basis. Individuals give up all of their natural advantages in exchange for the artificial or conventional advantages that society, through government, grants to them. As Rousseau teaches, individuals are to be subverted to the authority of the state. "If it is good to use men as they are," he wrote in his Discours sur l'economie Politique, "it is much better to transform them into what one intends them to be."



for entire article, click here
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Thought/fp18.cfm

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Tuesday, June 30, 2009 1:18 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
And I find it amusing that you can't spell "grammar", so I guess we're both laughing.


Oh, I'm laughing alright. Just pull the strings and make him dance.



Yes, it is amusing to watch you dance. Reminds me of Elaine Bennis trying to dance...

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Tuesday, June 30, 2009 1:28 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

You're starting to sound an awful lot like PirateNews now, what with the ever-increasing number of illegals. One minute it's 12 million, the next it's 30 million.



theyve been claiming 20 million for a decade now.. its realistically much higher. its a legitimate question, and you treat it mockingly, as if even 12 million illegals drawing from a taxpayer funded healthcare system is negligable



Nice dodge-n-weave. I'm not treating the problem mockingly; I'm mocking your ever-escalating, ever-more-paranoid numbers. You keep tossing out huge numbers, offer no cites for them, constantly refer to "they" and "them". You sound just like one of the freaky conspiracy nuts like PirateNews. Only difference I can see is that so far, you haven't started blaming it all on the Jews.

Quote:


Quote:

Oh, and isn't that the biggest gripe y'all have anyway? The idea that health care is only expensive because illegals are driving up the costs to the rest of us? So, are we covering "the illegals" now or aren't we?


have you live in, or been to souther CA? there were hostital closings almost yearly, because there are millions of illegals using services that they dont contribute to. its perfectly legitimate.. but the liberals, and i assume youre one, think its a laughing matter. yet another reason not to turn my healthcare over to those on your side of the arguement



Your argument keeps shifting. First you say the insurance companies wouldn't be able to compete on a level playing field, and now you're saying that it's the 12, 20, or 30 million "illegals" that are going to bring the whole system crashing down.

Quote:


Quote:

Hey, maybe we should all have a national ID card to be eligible...



you say that mockingly, itll be a pro- Obamacare advocate to propose it when its appropriate, God forbid it passes




I *DO* say it mockingly, much as you treat thousands of dead in Iraq as a laughing matter.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.



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Tuesday, June 30, 2009 1:31 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
heritage.org has a great article on the differences between the French and American(along with British)revolutions. this further emphasizes my point between the collectivist/statist view of 'rights', and the classical AMerican libertarian view:

Quote:

The American Declaration maintains that from man's place in the natural order arises the principle of human equality: "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights." But at the end of the Declaration, the Revolution's leaders proclaim their willingness to risk "our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor" for the cause, implying a certain inequality among men. A special set of risk-takers, the signers of the Declaration, were willing to lead the Revolution and take upon themselves the important responsibility of saying that King George III was now a tyrant.

So is man equal or unequal in the American scheme? He is both. In his fundamental rights, he is equal, but not every human being has the same talents and capacities. The very equality that exists by nature and forms the baseline of our politics also makes it possible for certain inequalities—like abilities for statesmanship and political leadership—to come to the fore and play their natural role in life.

The French view of natural rights, in contrast, is a Rousseauian view. In the Rousseauian model for the social contract, when individuals form a society—when unaffiliated individuals in a state of nature decide to affiliate—they give up or alienate everything to society, including their powers, possessions, and natural rights. Under the American doctrine, however, individuals never give up their nature: The natural rights of individuals are inalienable. In some sense, they are always behind one's civil rights—behind the positive rights.

Furthermore, if government becomes oppressive or tyrannical, the people have the right to alter or abolish that government—a right of revolutionary action against the government. Strangely enough, there is no right of revolution in Rousseau's republic or the French Republic. Once individuals have joined society, nothing personal remains to them. Citizens receive only what society decides to return to them on an equal basis. Individuals give up all of their natural advantages in exchange for the artificial or conventional advantages that society, through government, grants to them. As Rousseau teaches, individuals are to be subverted to the authority of the state. "If it is good to use men as they are," he wrote in his Discours sur l'economie Politique, "it is much better to transform them into what one intends them to be."



for entire article, click here
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Thought/fp18.cfm



Not to dispute what it says - I don't have the background to do it, sadly - but how biased or unbiased a source is the website heritage.org?

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Tuesday, June 30, 2009 1:41 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


Not to dispute what it says - I don't have the background to do it, sadly - but how biased or unbiased a source is the website heritage.org?



It's the right-wing equivalent of moveon.org. So yeah, it's a little biased...

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Tuesday, June 30, 2009 2:13 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:

All healthcare systems ration resources, public health does it in a fair and ethical way, private does it by letting poor people die. Don't fall prey to the anti-poor eugenics practising alarmists!



All healthcare systems are run by HUMANS and therefore flawed no matter how you look at it. You may HOPE public healthcare does it fairly and ethically, but as long as humans are involved, there's always the possibility (and a pretty good one) that someone will get royally screwed over in the deal. And don't think the rich won't take advantage, pay some public official off, etc. in order to get better care than the poor.

Just sayin' . . .

*********************************************

"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"



But is that adequate justification to DENY healthcare to the poor, just because the rich might take advantage?

By that rationale, why should *I* obey the laws? I mean, if rich people can get away with murder, then why shouldn't I be able to? Why try to enforce laws on the poor if the rich can pay off judges and take advantage?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.





But isn't that, in essence, what most liberals believe anyway? Not being snarky here, but it's my understanding that liberals think most of the worlds problems are caused by rich people taking advantage of the little guy. Thus the idea that the rich are obligated to "spread the wealth." I'm just saying that under ANY system, government OR private, is subject to the people running it. Sure, it can have all the halo's and wings you wanna put on it and call it the perfect system, but when you put a HUMAN in charge the landscape changes drastically. Greed steps in. And a rich person (or people, for that matter) can come in and demand better care, offer more money and therefore cause the "little guy" to be neglected. Are they being offered the care? Yes. But will they get it when they need it? Who knows? They still may "go without" because the system is dealing with the people willing to pay to be treated first. You can dance around that all you like, but you can not deny that it's a distinct possibility.

*********************************************

"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"

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Tuesday, June 30, 2009 2:23 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Don't you think they all start off as perfect human beings?



Yes and no. Yes in the sense that they haven't actually committed any sin when they're first born, but once the brain starts to develop, that selfishness, greed and whatnot starts to kick in. They have to be taught, more or less, the RIGHT thing to do.

And to answer Chris' question, I think you'll find that my scenario is the rule and there are exceptions to it (like your son, apparently, and the girl you mentioned). But what you're telling me is that: your son never, ever threw a tantrum; never took a toy from another child that wasn't his during playtime; never NOT wanted to share his toys with someone else, never lied, etc. Because I'm just having a hard time beleiving he is truly that perfect. Kinda like the "Golden Child." He might need Eddie Murphy to come protect him soon by the sounds of it

*********************************************

"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"

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Tuesday, June 30, 2009 3:42 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:

All healthcare systems ration resources, public health does it in a fair and ethical way, private does it by letting poor people die. Don't fall prey to the anti-poor eugenics practising alarmists!



All healthcare systems are run by HUMANS and therefore flawed no matter how you look at it. You may HOPE public healthcare does it fairly and ethically, but as long as humans are involved, there's always the possibility (and a pretty good one) that someone will get royally screwed over in the deal. And don't think the rich won't take advantage, pay some public official off, etc. in order to get better care than the poor.

Just sayin' . . .

*********************************************

"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"



But is that adequate justification to DENY healthcare to the poor, just because the rich might take advantage?

By that rationale, why should *I* obey the laws? I mean, if rich people can get away with murder, then why shouldn't I be able to? Why try to enforce laws on the poor if the rich can pay off judges and take advantage?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.





But isn't that, in essence, what most liberals believe anyway? Not being snarky here, but it's my understanding that liberals think most of the worlds problems are caused by rich people taking advantage of the little guy. Thus the idea that the rich are obligated to "spread the wealth." I'm just saying that under ANY system, government OR private, is subject to the people running it. Sure, it can have all the halo's and wings you wanna put on it and call it the perfect system, but when you put a HUMAN in charge the landscape changes drastically. Greed steps in. And a rich person (or people, for that matter) can come in and demand better care, offer more money and therefore cause the "little guy" to be neglected. Are they being offered the care? Yes. But will they get it when they need it? Who knows? They still may "go without" because the system is dealing with the people willing to pay to be treated first. You can dance around that all you like, but you can not deny that it's a distinct possibility.

*********************************************

"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"



Gosh, when you put it like that, it changes... nothing. It makes it sound like we need to put it in the hands of the machines, eh? ;)

And I guess since humans are fallible, we should scrap any ideas at letting humans be in control of ANYTHING, lest it get corrupted. Investments? Nope - humans are greedy (since birth, apparently); can't trust them to invest wisely. Better leave that to machines. Work? Nope - too lazy. Better let the machines do it!

I mean, honestly, Ripper, it sounds like your best argument against healthcare is that a few will try to exploit it. I hate to break it to you, but there are ALWAYS going to be a few who try to exploit ANYTHING you do. You're essentially arguing that we should scrap all the corporations because Enron was a scam, and we should scrap all investment brokers because Madoff was a fraud.

Is that really the way you want to go?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.



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Tuesday, June 30, 2009 3:44 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


Yes and no. Yes in the sense that they haven't actually committed any sin when they're first born, but once the brain starts to develop, that selfishness, greed and whatnot starts to kick in. They have to be taught, more or less, the RIGHT thing to do.



Sounds like a pretty good argument for abortion, really. Kill 'em while they're perfect, and they're guaranteed to go straight up to heaven to be with their dear and fluffy lord! Let 'em be born, and they're "fallen" and full of sin.

Is that what you're saying?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.



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Tuesday, June 30, 2009 3:44 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Gosh, when you put it like that, it changes... nothing. It makes it sound like we need to put it in the hands of the machines, eh? ;)

And I guess since humans are fallible, we should scrap any ideas at letting humans be in control of ANYTHING, lest it get corrupted. Investments? Nope - humans are greedy (since birth, apparently); can't trust them to invest wisely. Better leave that to machines. Work? Nope - too lazy. Better let the machines do it!

I mean, honestly, Ripper, it sounds like your best argument against healthcare is that a few will try to exploit it. I hate to break it to you, but there are ALWAYS going to be a few who try to exploit ANYTHING you do. You're essentially arguing that we should scrap all the corporations because Enron was a scam, and we should scrap all investment brokers because Madoff was a fraud.

Is that really the way you want to go?




What I'm TRYING to say is that if everything is corrupted by human interferance what makes you think that socialized medicine will work so much better? That's all.

Just sayin'

*********************************************

"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"

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Tuesday, June 30, 2009 3:47 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:


Yes and no. Yes in the sense that they haven't actually committed any sin when they're first born, but once the brain starts to develop, that selfishness, greed and whatnot starts to kick in. They have to be taught, more or less, the RIGHT thing to do.



Sounds like a pretty good argument for abortion, really. Kill 'em while they're perfect, and they're guaranteed to go straight up to heaven to be with their dear and fluffy lord! Let 'em be born, and they're "fallen" and full of sin.

Is that what you're saying?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.





Nope. Not at all. And that you would imply that I'm saying that is a little disturbing.

*********************************************

"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"

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Tuesday, June 30, 2009 4:18 AM

WASHNWEAR


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Malachite:
Saying that man is not born innocent is a description of the human condition.

Original sin is a concept that was created by men to keep peeps in church and making donations.
It's guilty until proven innocent.
It's the chicken before the egg.
It's the monkey in the wrench.



It's that funky brown stuff at the very bottom of a can of Frito-Lay™ Bean Dip.

Well said, CIA!



donttalkbackjustdrivethecarshutyourmouthiknowwhatyouaredontsaynothinkeepyourhandsonthewheeldontturnaroundthisisforreal

Still...what would Rorschach do?

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