REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Honduras Defends Its Democracy!

POSTED BY: SKYWALKEN
UPDATED: Saturday, July 4, 2009 18:15
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Tuesday, June 30, 2009 12:10 PM

SKYWALKEN


Here's a great article on the overthrow of the marxist narcoterrorist dictator Manuel Zelaya:

Quote:

Hugo Chávez's coalition-building efforts suffered a setback yesterday when the Honduran military sent its president packing for abusing the nation's constitution.

It seems that President Mel Zelaya miscalculated when he tried to emulate the success of his good friend Hugo in reshaping the Honduran Constitution to his liking.

But Honduras is not out of the Venezuelan woods yet. Yesterday the Central American country was being pressured to restore the authoritarian Mr. Zelaya by the likes of Fidel Castro, Daniel Ortega, Hillary Clinton and, of course, Hugo himself. The Organization of American States, having ignored Mr. Zelaya's abuses, also wants him back in power. It will be a miracle if Honduran patriots can hold their ground.

That Mr. Zelaya acted as if he were above the law, there is no doubt. While Honduran law allows for a constitutional rewrite, the power to open that door does not lie with the president. A constituent assembly can only be called through a national referendum approved by its Congress.

But Mr. Zelaya declared the vote on his own and had Mr. Chávez ship him the necessary ballots from Venezuela. The Supreme Court ruled his referendum unconstitutional, and it instructed the military not to carry out the logistics of the vote as it normally would do.

The top military commander, Gen. Romeo Vásquez Velásquez, told the president that he would have to comply. Mr. Zelaya promptly fired him. The Supreme Court ordered him reinstated. Mr. Zelaya refused.

Calculating that some critical mass of Hondurans would take his side, the president decided he would run the referendum himself. So on Thursday he led a mob that broke into the military installation where the ballots from Venezuela were being stored and then had his supporters distribute them in defiance of the Supreme Court's order.

The attorney general had already made clear that the referendum was illegal, and he further announced that he would prosecute anyone involved in carrying it out. Yesterday, Mr. Zelaya was arrested by the military and is now in exile in Costa Rica.

It remains to be seen what Mr. Zelaya's next move will be. It's not surprising that chavistas throughout the region are claiming that he was victim of a military coup. They want to hide the fact that the military was acting on a court order to defend the rule of law and the constitution, and that the Congress asserted itself for that purpose, too.

Mrs. Clinton has piled on as well. Yesterday she accused Honduras of violating "the precepts of the Interamerican Democratic Charter" and said it "should be condemned by all." Fidel Castro did just that. Mr. Chávez pledged to overthrow the new government.

Honduras is fighting back by strictly following the constitution. The Honduran Congress met in emergency session yesterday and designated its president as the interim executive as stipulated in Honduran law. It also said that presidential elections set for November will go forward. The Supreme Court later said that the military acted on its orders. It also said that when Mr. Zelaya realized that he was going to be prosecuted for his illegal behavior, he agreed to an offer to resign in exchange for safe passage out of the country. Mr. Zelaya denies it.

Many Hondurans are going to be celebrating Mr. Zelaya's foreign excursion. Street protests against his heavy-handed tactics had already begun last week. On Friday a large number of military reservists took their turn. "We won't go backwards," one sign said. "We want to live in peace, freedom and development."

Besides opposition from the Congress, the Supreme Court, the electoral tribunal and the attorney general, the president had also become persona non grata with the Catholic Church and numerous evangelical church leaders. On Thursday evening his own party in Congress sponsored a resolution to investigate whether he is mentally unfit to remain in office.

For Hondurans who still remember military dictatorship, Mr. Zelaya also has another strike against him: He keeps rotten company. Earlier this month he hosted an OAS general assembly and led the effort, along side OAS Secretary General José Miguel Insulza, to bring Cuba back into the supposedly democratic organization.

The OAS response is no surprise. Former Argentine Ambassador to the U.N. Emilio Cárdenas told me on Saturday that he was concerned that "the OAS under Insulza has not taken seriously the so-called 'democratic charter.' It seems to believe that only military 'coups' can challenge democracy. The truth is that democracy can be challenged from within, as the experiences of Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, Nicaragua, and now Honduras, prove." A less-kind interpretation of Mr. Insulza's judgment is that he doesn't mind the Chávez-style coup.

The struggle against chavismo has never been about left-right politics. It is about defending the independence of institutions that keep presidents from becoming dictators. This crisis clearly delineates the problem. In failing to come to the aid of checks and balances, Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Insulza expose their true colors.



http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124623220955866301.html


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Tuesday, June 30, 2009 12:57 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


HONDURAS DEFENDS ITS DEMOCRACY WITH A MILITARY COUP TO PREVENT A VOTE!

Kinda ironic, innit?

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Tuesday, June 30, 2009 1:06 PM

FIVVER


Not at all. By Honduran law the vote can only be called by congress, not the president. In this situation you have the legislative and judicial branches of the government acting within the law to regin in an out of control executive. All the military did was to follow the mandate of the congress and the courts. The constitutionally prescribed successor has been sworn in and the scheduled elections will go forward. In no way is that a military coup. But, of course, since our Dear Leader (peace be upon him) calls it a coup, you have to mindlessly parrot Him.

Personally, I think Barry's upset that the precident might interfere with his plans for 2012 (maybe) or 2016 (definitely).

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Tuesday, June 30, 2009 1:11 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


That's OK. We can invade a nation and kill tens - if not hundreds- of thousands of people WITHOUT legal cover, so WTF are we complaining about?

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Tuesday, June 30, 2009 1:52 PM

BADKARMA00


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
HONDURAS DEFENDS ITS DEMOCRACY WITH A MILITARY COUP TO PREVENT A VOTE!

Kinda ironic, innit?



-----------------

Doesn't a 'military coup' usually end with the military being in charge? If I read this correctly, the Honduran congress is in charge, and have appointed an interim president, with normal elections in November, which were already scheduled.

I don't see where everyone is getting the 'military coup' part, when the civilian government is, apparently, still in charge.



Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Tuesday, June 30, 2009 1:55 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I'm calling it a coup because that's what the press is calling it
Quote:

TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras – Soldiers ousted the democratically elected president of Honduras on Sunday and Congress named a successor, but the leftist ally of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez denounced what he called an illegal coup and vowed to stay in power.

The first military takeover of a Central American government in 16 years drew widespread condemnation from governments in Latin America and the world, and Chavez vowed to overthrow the country's apparent new leader.

President Manuel Zelaya was awakened Sunday by gunfire and detained while still in his pajamas, hours before an unpopular constitutional referendum many saw as a power grab. An air force plane flew him into forced exile in Costa Rica as armored military vehicles with machine guns rolled through the streets of the Honduran capital and soldiers seized the national palace.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090628/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_honduras_refe
rendum

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Tuesday, June 30, 2009 2:06 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


On the nature of the propsed referenudm, which the miliary aborted:
Quote:

Caracas, Venezuela – The text message that beeped on my cell phone this morning read “Alert, Zelaya has been kidnapped, coup d’etat underway in Honduras, spread the word.” It’s a rude awakening for a Sunday morning, especially for the millions of Hondurans that were preparing to exercise their sacred right to vote today for the first time on a consultative referendum concerning the future convening of a constitutional assembly to reform the constitution. Supposedly at the center of the controversary is today’s scheduled referendum, which is not a binding vote but merely an opinion poll to determine whether or not a majority of Hondurans desire to eventually enter into a process to modify their constitution.... Zelaya, elected in November 2005 on the platform of Honduras’ Liberal Party, had proposed the opinion poll be conducted to determine if a majority of citizens agreed that constitutional reform was necessary. He was backed by a majority of labor unions and social movements in the country. If the poll had occured, depending on the results, a referendum would have been conducted during the upcoming elections in November to vote on convening a constitutional assembly. Nevertheless, today’s scheduled poll was not binding by law. In fact, several days before the poll was to occur, Honduras’ Supreme Court ruled it illegal, upon request by the Congress, both of which are led by anti-Zelaya majorities and members of the ultra-conservative party, National Party of Honduras (PNH). This move led to massive protests in the streets in favor of President Zelaya.




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Tuesday, June 30, 2009 3:56 PM

BADKARMA00


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm calling it a coup because that's what the press is calling it
Quote:

TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras – Soldiers ousted the democratically elected president of Honduras on Sunday and Congress named a successor, but the leftist ally of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez denounced what he called an illegal coup and vowed to stay in power.

The first military takeover of a Central American government in 16 years drew widespread condemnation from governments in Latin America and the world, and Chavez vowed to overthrow the country's apparent new leader.

President Manuel Zelaya was awakened Sunday by gunfire and detained while still in his pajamas, hours before an unpopular constitutional referendum many saw as a power grab. An air force plane flew him into forced exile in Costa Rica as armored military vehicles with machine guns rolled through the streets of the Honduran capital and soldiers seized the national palace.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090628/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_honduras_refe
rendum



--------------

Yeah, I noticed that after I posted this. In the story I read on CNN though, they reported that the Honduran Congress is in charge, though stil calling it a 'coup'.

If what I read is factual, and with CNN who knows? then Zelaya was trying to changet the law so that he could remain in power. As I understand it, the law COULD be changed, but only by a voter referendum (sp?) which Zelaya apparently wasn't willing to wait for.

The story says that the Supreme Court ruled Zelaya's actions unconstitutional, and that the military refused to act on Zelaya's orders.

And the Congress has appointed it's own president, whose name I think is Michetti, as interim President, until the scheduled elections, (which Zelaya was allegedly trying to circumvent) this fall.

I can't understand why the press, or the Obama Administration, or the ever useless UN are all calling this a coup and condemning it, let alone demanding that Zelaya be returned to power. If CNN's story is correct, then all that's happened is that Zelaya tried a Hugo Chavez type 'President for Life' move, and got smacked for it.

Seems to me that the Honduran constitution has been upheld, and that the civilian government, sans crooked President-Want to Be Dictator, is in charge.

I just don't see where 'coup' should be used, except maybe in reference to Zelaya himself.

But I do see why you were using it after I saw the press calling it that.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Tuesday, June 30, 2009 5:03 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


I'd buy that for a dollar in USA.

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Tuesday, June 30, 2009 5:41 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


I can't understand why the press, or the Obama Administration, or the ever useless UN are all calling this a coup and condemning it, let alone demanding that Zelaya be returned to power. If CNN's story is correct, then all that's happened is that Zelaya tried a Hugo Chavez type 'President for Life' move, and got smacked for it.



They're calling it a military coup because that's typically what you call it when the military deposes a leader and either takes over the country itself or installs a new leader. The term "military coup" has negative connotations, but that doesn't mean it's ALWAYS a bad thing - occasionally the country is better off for it, especially if the military clears out a corrupt government and paves the way for legitimate elections to take place.

'Course, Obama's not playing ball because he realizes that something similar could happen here, and he doesn't want any part of seeming to support such actions. :)

Quote:


The story says that the Supreme Court ruled Zelaya's actions unconstitutional, and that the military refused to act on Zelaya's orders.



If only we could have been so lucky at some point in the last 8 years...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.



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Wednesday, July 1, 2009 8:10 AM

BADKARMA00


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:


I can't understand why the press, or the Obama Administration, or the ever useless UN are all calling this a coup and condemning it, let alone demanding that Zelaya be returned to power. If CNN's story is correct, then all that's happened is that Zelaya tried a Hugo Chavez type 'President for Life' move, and got smacked for it.



They're calling it a military coup because that's typically what you call it when the military deposes a leader and either takes over the country itself or installs a new leader. The term "military coup" has negative connotations, but that doesn't mean it's ALWAYS a bad thing - occasionally the country is better off for it, especially if the military clears out a corrupt government and paves the way for legitimate elections to take place.

'Course, Obama's not playing ball because he realizes that something similar could happen here, and he doesn't want any part of seeming to support such actions. :)

Quote:


The story says that the Supreme Court ruled Zelaya's actions unconstitutional, and that the military refused to act on Zelaya's orders.



If only we could have been so lucky at some point in the last 8 years...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.






-----------------

Well, the difference is, that Zelaya was trying to extend his presidency in violation of the constitution. Bush, for all his faults, and as a Republican I will say there were many, never tried something like that.

I agree with you though about the title, and the conotations. It's not always a bad thing. I can't understand the uproar, though, considering that the civilian government, again sans ex-president wanna be for life, is in charge rather than the military.

You ever feel like a mushroom when you see the news? Kept in the dark and fed a lot of $hit? I know I do. Maybe our problem is that we've become so used to having worldwide news at our beckon call, knowing everything that happens, everywhere.

Only we don't really know, do we?

I don't think Obama has to worry about a 'coup' here, though. We've never had one, and I don't think the professional military would support one. And, while I don't like Obama and his socialist agenda, I haven't seen anything he's done that would rate a 'coup', lol. I know he's broken campaign promises, and lots of people are making hay over that, but good grief, what politician hasn't lied?

It is kinda funny though that Obama can basically say nothing about what's happening in Iran, and then raise all kinds of hell about what looks like the Honduran's just taking out the trash.

But, like I said, we don't really know everything, about anything. Who's to say?

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Wednesday, July 1, 2009 9:28 AM

GRIPPER


The Honduran military got it right...Zelaya was trying to color outside of the lines;essentially laying the groundwork for "President for Life",AFTER both his own nations Supreme Court AND their Congress replied:"Nope"....I'd say he got off pretty lucky to hav efound a nice berth ELSEWHERE as opposed to "whereabouts unknown at this time"....

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Wednesday, July 1, 2009 9:42 AM

BADKARMA00


Quote:

Originally posted by gripper:
The Honduran military got it right...Zelaya was trying to color outside of the lines;essentially laying the groundwork for "President for Life",AFTER both his own nations Supreme Court AND their Congress replied:"Nope"....I'd say he got off pretty lucky to hav efound a nice berth ELSEWHERE as opposed to "whereabouts unknown at this time"....




-----------------


That's how I'm inclined to see it, based on what I've read so far.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Wednesday, July 1, 2009 9:49 AM

FIVVER


Just a tiny quibble. The Honduran congress and court got it right. The military simply acted at their behest. They remained under civilian control and did not take independent inititive in their actions.

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Wednesday, July 1, 2009 11:20 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by badkarma00:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:


I can't understand why the press, or the Obama Administration, or the ever useless UN are all calling this a coup and condemning it, let alone demanding that Zelaya be returned to power. If CNN's story is correct, then all that's happened is that Zelaya tried a Hugo Chavez type 'President for Life' move, and got smacked for it.



They're calling it a military coup because that's typically what you call it when the military deposes a leader and either takes over the country itself or installs a new leader. The term "military coup" has negative connotations, but that doesn't mean it's ALWAYS a bad thing - occasionally the country is better off for it, especially if the military clears out a corrupt government and paves the way for legitimate elections to take place.

'Course, Obama's not playing ball because he realizes that something similar could happen here, and he doesn't want any part of seeming to support such actions. :)

Quote:


The story says that the Supreme Court ruled Zelaya's actions unconstitutional, and that the military refused to act on Zelaya's orders.



If only we could have been so lucky at some point in the last 8 years...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.






-----------------

Well, the difference is, that Zelaya was trying to extend his presidency in violation of the constitution. Bush, for all his faults, and as a Republican I will say there were many, never tried something like that.



Never? "Enhanced Interrogation"? Warrantless wiretaps? Extraordinary rendition? Those all sound constitutional to you?

Quote:


I agree with you though about the title, and the conotations. It's not always a bad thing. I can't understand the uproar, though, considering that the civilian government, again sans ex-president wanna be for life, is in charge rather than the military.



Agreed. It looks like this might be the rare occasion when the military stepped in, took control of the situation, ousted a president who was trying to do something unconstitutional, and then handed control back to the LEGITIMATE civilian authorities. And I reiterate: We should have been so lucky at any time in the last 8 years. And we may need that kind of luck in the next 4 or more... not that I think we'll get any help at all out of these milquetoasts.

Quote:


You ever feel like a mushroom when you see the news? Kept in the dark and fed a lot of $hit? I know I do. Maybe our problem is that we've become so used to having worldwide news at our beckon call, knowing everything that happens, everywhere.



Yes! A few years ago, we had reports all over the national news about massive flooding in San Antonio, just down the road from me. I was heading there to visit my brothers anyway, so I was kinda worried about what I was going to run into. Problem is, I couldn't find ANY signs of that "massive flooding" ANYWHERE. News made it sound like the whole city was underwater, and I couldn't even find a damn puddle! That's when I started to fully realize the sensational, overblown nature of the headlines.

Quote:


Only we don't really know, do we?



Not unless we're there on the scene, it seems.

Quote:


I don't think Obama has to worry about a 'coup' here, though. We've never had one, and I don't think the professional military would support one.



There are those who'd argue that we DID undergo a coup here in November 1963. Just sayin'...

Quote:


And, while I don't like Obama and his socialist agenda, I haven't seen anything he's done that would rate a 'coup', lol. I know he's broken campaign promises, and lots of people are making hay over that, but good grief, what politician hasn't lied?



John Edwar- BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHH...

Sorry. I *TRIED* to keep a straight face while saying that. It just can't be done.

Quote:


It is kinda funny though that Obama can basically say nothing about what's happening in Iran, and then raise all kinds of hell about what looks like the Honduran's just taking out the trash.



Well, on the serious side, how much trouble can Honduras really cause us? I mean, if they get REALLY pissed at us, what are they gonna do, stop sending us cheap sandals and guayabera shirts?

Quote:


But, like I said, we don't really know everything, about anything. Who's to say?



Werner Heisenberg would be proud. After all we can never KNOW anything, can we?


Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.



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Wednesday, July 1, 2009 12:10 PM

GRIPPER


Hey! I LIKE guayabera shirts....I am a skinny,5'8",150 ponder;and I can make a 6 inch GP100 DISAPPEAR when I "dress around my gear"(LOL!)....

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Wednesday, July 1, 2009 12:39 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by gripper:
Hey! I LIKE guayabera shirts....I am a skinny,5'8",150 ponder;and I can make a 6 inch GP100 DISAPPEAR when I "dress around my gear"(LOL!)....



Oh, I'm sure you can still find guayaberas - they'll just be made in the Dominican Republic, or El Salvador, or Mexico, or...

How do you like the grip angle on the GP100? It looks to me like the grip would be uncomfortable. I'm partial to the trusty old Super Blackhawk myself.

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Thursday, July 2, 2009 7:38 AM

GRIPPER


You should have seen me when th epersonal armsroom was better stocked-I used to have an old 5.5 inch Redhawk in .357(mainly a platform for "warm " handloads);but oddly enough th eGP carried well for me(after market grips.however-rubber tends to print on my clothing).
I am oneof those skinny,wiry guys with very strong forearms and back-as a result my clothing (when I dress comfy!) tends to hang on me in a rather convenient way.Knives-same difference-I can carry a fairly sizeable neck knife(4.5 inch blade) and not print on anything heavier than a T shirt as well).

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Thursday, July 2, 2009 10:19 AM

BADKARMA00


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by badkarma00:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:


I can't understand why the press, or the Obama Administration, or the ever useless UN are all calling this a coup and condemning it, let alone demanding that Zelaya be returned to power. If CNN's story is correct, then all that's happened is that Zelaya tried a Hugo Chavez type 'President for Life' move, and got smacked for it.



They're calling it a military coup because that's typically what you call it when the military deposes a leader and either takes over the country itself or installs a new leader. The term "military coup" has negative connotations, but that doesn't mean it's ALWAYS a bad thing - occasionally the country is better off for it, especially if the military clears out a corrupt government and paves the way for legitimate elections to take place.

'Course, Obama's not playing ball because he realizes that something similar could happen here, and he doesn't want any part of seeming to support such actions. :)

Quote:


The story says that the Supreme Court ruled Zelaya's actions unconstitutional, and that the military refused to act on Zelaya's orders.



If only we could have been so lucky at some point in the last 8 years...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.






-----------------

Well, the difference is, that Zelaya was trying to extend his presidency in violation of the constitution. Bush, for all his faults, and as a Republican I will say there were many, never tried something like that.



Never? "Enhanced Interrogation"? Warrantless wiretaps? Extraordinary rendition? Those all sound constitutional to you?

Quote:


I agree with you though about the title, and the conotations. It's not always a bad thing. I can't understand the uproar, though, considering that the civilian government, again sans ex-president wanna be for life, is in charge rather than the military.



Agreed. It looks like this might be the rare occasion when the military stepped in, took control of the situation, ousted a president who was trying to do something unconstitutional, and then handed control back to the LEGITIMATE civilian authorities. And I reiterate: We should have been so lucky at any time in the last 8 years. And we may need that kind of luck in the next 4 or more... not that I think we'll get any help at all out of these milquetoasts.

Quote:


You ever feel like a mushroom when you see the news? Kept in the dark and fed a lot of $hit? I know I do. Maybe our problem is that we've become so used to having worldwide news at our beckon call, knowing everything that happens, everywhere.



Yes! A few years ago, we had reports all over the national news about massive flooding in San Antonio, just down the road from me. I was heading there to visit my brothers anyway, so I was kinda worried about what I was going to run into. Problem is, I couldn't find ANY signs of that "massive flooding" ANYWHERE. News made it sound like the whole city was underwater, and I couldn't even find a damn puddle! That's when I started to fully realize the sensational, overblown nature of the headlines.

Quote:


Only we don't really know, do we?



Not unless we're there on the scene, it seems.

Quote:


I don't think Obama has to worry about a 'coup' here, though. We've never had one, and I don't think the professional military would support one.



There are those who'd argue that we DID undergo a coup here in November 1963. Just sayin'...

Quote:


And, while I don't like Obama and his socialist agenda, I haven't seen anything he's done that would rate a 'coup', lol. I know he's broken campaign promises, and lots of people are making hay over that, but good grief, what politician hasn't lied?



John Edwar- BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHH...

Sorry. I *TRIED* to keep a straight face while saying that. It just can't be done.

Quote:


It is kinda funny though that Obama can basically say nothing about what's happening in Iran, and then raise all kinds of hell about what looks like the Honduran's just taking out the trash.



Well, on the serious side, how much trouble can Honduras really cause us? I mean, if they get REALLY pissed at us, what are they gonna do, stop sending us cheap sandals and guayabera shirts?

Quote:


But, like I said, we don't really know everything, about anything. Who's to say?



Werner Heisenberg would be proud. After all we can never KNOW anything, can we?


Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.






-------------------


Technically, the wiretaps etc, were part of the patriot act, which congress approved. I don't much like it, though. What I was refering to was the 'president for life' power grab. Bush didn't do anything like that, despite his other many failings.

And besides, who would WANT that job? lol

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

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Thursday, July 2, 2009 10:38 AM

SKYWALKEN


The Wages of Chavismo

The Honduran coup is a reaction to Chávez's rule by the mob.

Quote:

As military "coups" go, the one this weekend in Honduras was strangely, well, democratic. The military didn't oust President Manuel Zelaya on its own but instead followed an order of the Supreme Court. It also quickly turned power over to the president of the Honduran Congress, a man from the same party as Mr. Zelaya. The legislature and legal authorities all remain intact.

We mention these not so small details because they are being overlooked as the world, including the U.S. President, denounces tiny Honduras in a way that it never has, say, Iran. President Obama is joining the U.N., Fidel Castro, Hugo Chávez and other model democrats in demanding that Mr. Zelaya be allowed to return from exile and restored to power. Maybe it's time to sort the real from the phony Latin American democrats.
[Review & Outlook] Associated Press

People against the return of ousted Honduras President Manuel Zelaya participate in a rally at the central park in Tegucigalpa, Tuesday, June 30, 2009.

The situation is messy, and we think the Hondurans would have been smarter -- and better off -- not sending Mr. Zelaya into exile at dawn. Mr. Zelaya was pressing ahead with a nonbinding referendum to demand a constitutional rewrite to let him seek a second four-year term. The attorney general and Honduran courts declared the vote illegal and warned he'd be prosecuted if he followed through. Mr. Zelaya persisted, even leading a violent mob last week to seize and distribute ballots imported from Venezuela. However, the proper constitutional route was to impeach Mr. Zelaya and then arrest him for violating the law.

Yet the events in Honduras also need to be understood in the context of Latin America's decade of chavismo. Venezuela's Hugo Chávez was democratically elected in 1998, but he has since used every lever of power, legal and extralegal, to subvert democracy. He first ordered a rewrite of the constitution that allowed his simple majority in the national assembly grant him the power to rule by decree for one year and to control the judiciary.

In 2004 he packed the Supreme Court with 32 justices from 20. Any judge who rules against his interests can be fired. He made the electoral tribunal that oversees elections his own political tool, denying opposition requests to inspect voter rolls and oversee vote counts. The once politically independent oil company now hires only Chávez allies, and independent television stations have had their licenses revoked.

Mr. Chávez has also exported this brand of one-man-one-vote-once democracy throughout the region. He's succeeded to varying degrees in Ecuador, Bolivia, Argentina and Nicaragua, where his allies have stretched the law and tried to dominate the media and the courts. Mexico escaped in 2006 when Felipe Calderón linked his leftwing opponent to chavismo and barely won the presidency.

In Honduras Mr. Chávez funneled Veneuzelan oil money to help Mr. Zelaya win in 2005, and Mr. Zelaya has veered increasingly left in his four-year term. The Honduran constitution limits presidents to a single term, which is scheduled to end in January. Mr. Zelaya was using the extralegal referendum as an act of political intimidation to force the Congress to allow a rewrite of the constitution so he could retain power. The opposition had pledged to boycott the vote, which meant that Mr. Zelaya would have won by a landslide.

Such populist intimidation has worked elsewhere in the region, and Hondurans are understandably afraid that, backed by Chávez agents and money, it could lead to similar antidemocratic subversion there. In Tegucigalpa yesterday, thousands demonstrated against Mr. Zelaya, and new deputy foreign minister Marta Lorena Casco told the crowd that "Chávez consumed Venezuela, then Bolivia, after that Ecuador and Nicaragua, but in Honduras that didn't happen."

It's no accident that Mr. Chávez is now leading the charge to have Mr. Zelaya reinstated, and on Monday the Honduran traveled to a leftwing summit in Managua in one of Mr. Chávez's planes. The U.N. and Organization of American States are also threatening the tiny nation with ostracism and other punishment if it doesn't readmit him. Meanwhile, the new Honduran government is saying it will arrest Mr. Zelaya if he returns. This may be the best legal outcome, but it also runs the risk of destabilizing the country. We recall when the Clinton Administration restored Bertrand Aristide to Haiti, only to have the country descend into anarchy.

As for the Obama Administration, it seems eager to "meddle" in Honduras in a way Mr. Obama claimed was counterproductive in Iran. Yet the stolen election in Iran was a far clearer subversion of democracy than the coup in Honduras. As a candidate, Mr. Obama often scored George W. Bush's foreign policy by saying democracy requires more than an election -- a free press, for example, civil society and the rule of law rather than rule by the mob. It's a point worth recalling before Mr. Obama hands a political victory to the forces of chavismo in Latin America.



http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124640649700876791.html#printMode

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Thursday, July 2, 2009 5:42 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Skywalken, I want to address your POV specifically. In fact, I wanted to specifically address your first post, but it required far more time than I could have devoted to it. If I have time, I'll go back to it.
Quote:

The Honduran coup is a reaction to Chávez's rule by the mob.
"The mob"? What is "the mob"? People who demonstrate to show their unhappiness with the system? People who feel "the system", "the law" and "the Constitution" don't represent their interests? People who think "the system" is rigged against them? Who demand extra-judicial procedures? Who throw rocks and bottles at the police? Who demand to be heard?

People like the Iranian opposition?

Isn't it amazing how one man's "mob" is another man's "freedom fighters"? So let me re-cast the WSJ article in a different light:
Quote:

As military "coups" go, the one this weekend in Iran was strangely, well, democratic. The military didn't oust Presidential candidate Moussavi on its own but instead followed an order of the Supreme Ruler and Revolutionary Guard. It also quickly protected the putative President Ahmadinejad and tore down the voting booths erected by Moussavi, confiscated ballots and arrested anyone who appeared to be an opposition poll-worker. But the legislature and legal authorities all remain intact.

We mention these not so small details because they are being overlooked as the world, including the U.S. President, denounces Iran in a way that it never has, say, Honduras. President Obama is joining the U.N., the UK, and other model democrats in demanding that Mr. Moussavi be allowed to return from exile and that the extra-legal vote be allowed. Maybe it's time to sort the real democrats from the phony Mideast ones.

The situation is messy, and we think the Iranians would have been smarter -- and better off -- not sending Mr. Moussavi into exile at dawn. Mr. Moussavi was pressing ahead with a nonbinding referendum to validate the Iranian vote. The ayatollah and Iranian Supreme Court declared the referendum illegal and warned he'd be prosecuted if he followed through. Mr. Moussavi persisted, even leading a violent mob last week to seize and distribute ballots. However, the proper constitutional route was to indict Mr. Moussavi and then arrest him for violating the law.

Doesn't quite play the same, does it?

It seems to me that the right-wing cries out for "the rule of law" when it benefits them and ignores it when it doesn't.

To me, the real test is what the people want. After all, what is the downside of holding a non-binding referendum.. other than finding out what the people want???? A government which is afraid of transparency is a government which is afraid of the people it supposedly serves.

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Friday, July 3, 2009 8:37 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Unlike the wall-to-wall coverage of Iran, you won't hear much about this in American press.
Quote:

TEGUCIGALPA, July 2 (Xinhua) -- Rival rallies for and against Honduras' post-coup government continued into their fifth day on Thursday, with at least three cities seeing large gatherings, local media reported.
Juan Barahona, leader of the United Workers Front (FUT), led marches backing Manuel Zelaya, the nation's president who was seized from his bed by hooded and heavily-armed soldiers on Sunday, and forced to board a plane to Costa Rica. The FUT has joined with other Zelaya sympathizers to create the People's Resistance Front.
Pro-Zelaya protests were seen in northern city San Pedro Sula and in the capital, Tegucigalpa. At least two pro-Zelaya demonstrators have been killed, with at least 60 others injured and over 270 arrested...
Supporters of Roberto Micheletti, who was sworn in as president just hours after Zelaya was ousted and forced into exile, have created the Civic Democratic Unit, which staged a sit-in in the capital on Tuesday, rallied in southern city Choluteca on Wednesday and is holding rallies in San Pedro Sula on Thursday.
Zelaya has said he will return to Honduras, accompanied by Jose Miguel Insulza, the secretary-general of the Organization of American States, and regional heads of state. The Organization of American States has adopted a resolution demanding that Zelaya be reinstated. The coup has been widely condemned by nations and multilateral bodies across the world.


http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-07/03/content_11643084.htm

Quote:

Demonstrations continued Thursday, including a march by thousands of Zelaya's supporters through downtown Tegucigalpa that started at the army headquarters. They painted slogans on scores of buildings, including a play on Micheletti's name, "Pinocheletti," that compares him to Augusto Pinochet, the leader of Chile's 1973 coup. At a pro-Zelaya march in Honduras' second city, San Pedro Sula, dozens of people were reported arrested.
Honduras for decades was practically a client state of the U.S. But Washington was unable to prevent this crisis and has not been able to resolve it. After Zelaya was seized, his wife, Xiomara Castro, and their youngest son took refuge at the home of the U.S. ambassador, where they remain. The U.S. Embassy has a no-contact policy with the Micheletti faction.
Honduras' de facto leaders have imposed a curfew on the country and suspended some civil rights. Micheletti defended those steps Thursday, saying they have fostered a decline in the crime rate. "You see, it's a good thing that the army and police are in the streets," he said. "It has brought down crime." He and other members of his provisional government refuse to describe the president's ouster as a coup, saying Zelaya was violating the constitution.
Martha Lorena Alvarado de Castro, sworn in Thursday as deputy foreign minister, said she and her allies were "absolutely surprised" by the international condemnation. "I think there is little understanding of our reality," she said in an interview in the courtyard of the presidential palace. "What's happening in Honduras now {curfew, loss of civil rights, demonstration???} is fabulous"

www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-honduras3-2009jul03,0,744
2571.story

Oy!

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Friday, July 3, 2009 9:35 AM

SKYWALKEN


The people of Honduras are not only standing up to the marxist Zelaya, there also standing up to the marxist Obama and his lapdog that is the American mainstream media.

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/07/honduran-democracy-protester
s-lash-out.html

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Friday, July 3, 2009 11:10 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Skywalken:
The people of Honduras are not only standing up to the marxist Zelaya, there also standing up to the marxist Obama and his lapdog that is the American mainstream media.



Well... except for the ones who are standing up FOR Zelaya, that is...

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Friday, July 3, 2009 11:57 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So we have competing demonstrations, ONE side of which is getting killed, beaten and jailed and the OTHER side is getting a free pass.

But isn't the BEST way to find out what the people want by holding a referendum???? And isn't that what Zelaya wanted? Not exactly the mark of a dictator, is it?

Like I said- what's the downside of holding a referendum? Wouldn't YOU want to see a referendum in Iran? And if so- what's the difference between one situation and th other?

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Friday, July 3, 2009 12:40 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Yup, and now it seems cell-phone videos are popping up showing soldiers shooting at buses full of pro-Zelaya protesters. Sounds VERRRRRRYYYYY democratic, that. Maybe someone told the military to give these people some ballots, but what they HEARD was "bullets"...

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Friday, July 3, 2009 12:52 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
So we have competing demonstrations, ONE side of which is getting killed, beaten and jailed and the OTHER side is getting a free pass.

But isn't the BEST way to find out what the people want by holding a referendum???? And isn't that what Zelaya wanted? Not exactly the mark of a dictator, is it?

Like I said- what's the downside of holding a referendum? Wouldn't YOU want to see a referendum in Iran? And if so- what's the difference between one situation and th other?



This is quite true, alot of the time the loudest protest may not exactly represent the majority....


And what about outside the citys

a referendum is the only way to go




" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson


Lets party like its 1939

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Friday, July 3, 2009 12:52 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
But isn't the BEST way to find out what the people want by holding a referendum????



Not if the only way to legally hold a referendum is at the behest of the Congress and the Congress doesn't order it. Also not if the opposition figured it would be rigged and decided not to participate. You might end up like the elections in Iran, where some districts had a turnout over 100%.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, July 3, 2009 1:27 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
But isn't the BEST way to find out what the people want by holding a referendum????



Not if the only way to legally hold a referendum is at the behest of the Congress and the Congress doesn't order it. Also not if the opposition figured it would be rigged and decided not to participate. You might end up like the elections in Iran, where some districts had a turnout over 100%.



"Keep the Shiny side up"



Hell, some districts had turnouts of over 140%! A hundred and forty percent of the people who lived in that district voted. If we had half that much turnout in a presidential election, we'd be happy.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.



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Friday, July 3, 2009 3:39 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Not if the only way to legally hold a referendum is at the behest of the Congress and the Congress doesn't order it.
So, since the Iranian Supreme Leader said that vote was OK and refused a re-vote that's fine with you too.

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Friday, July 3, 2009 5:23 PM

FIVVER


Siggy, please stop insuinuating hypocrisy in other people. In Iran the people protested against an established dictatorship propped up by a rigged election and in Honduras they slapped down the attempt to establish a dictatorship by means of a rigged election. In both cases people are either fighting for freedom or to keep it. Supporting the demonstrations in Iran and the ouster of the Honduran president is totally consistant.

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Friday, July 3, 2009 5:50 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Fivver- Bullshit.

Do you have any inkling about Zelaya's level of support?

Do you have any idea what level of support Moussavi has?

Of course not.

But your complete lack of basic facts on the ground doesn't prevent you from opining ... based on nothing other than sheer propaganda... what is really happening in either country, does it?

All I'm arguing for is objectivity. The objectivity that would allow you to realize that ALL of the "collateral damage" that WE created is every bit as tragic as Neda's death. That innocent bystanders in Venezuela were killed by anti-Chavez provocateurs, just as Neda was prolly killed. That the current governments in BOTH Honduras AND Iran are killing, beating and arresting civilians. All you seem to care about is whose side "they're" on. If they're on our "side" then everything they do is "good". If they're on the "other side" (whatever side that is) then everything they do is bad.

Well, it doesn't work that way, and if you think so then you're incredibly naive.

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Friday, July 3, 2009 5:55 PM

FIVVER


Wow, I bow to your flawless logic.

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Friday, July 3, 2009 6:06 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Wow, I bow to your flawless logic.
Thank you.


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Friday, July 3, 2009 6:17 PM

FIVVER


Sorry, when I posted all I saw was"

Fivver - bull.

Quote:

Do you have any inkling about Zelaya's level of support?

Do you have any idea what level of support Moussavi has?

Of course not.



Firsthand knowledge, nope. Don't need it. If Zelaya is a popular as you are insinuating, then there is no problem. In the November elections, his supportes will take a majority of the seats and call for the referendum or his opponents will maintain control and not call for it. Either way the Hondurans will have spoken.

The facts on the ground are that Zelaya forced this constitutional crisis by telling the other two branches to go screw themselves and they pushed back. Ever heard of balance of power? Their constitution is the LAW of the country. Not a set of objectives or guidelines but the LAW. Zelaya was the one ignoring it.

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Friday, July 3, 2009 6:25 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by fivver:

Firsthand knowledge, nope. Don't need it.

That's the corporate way.
*ooops*


The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, July 3, 2009 6:37 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

In the November elections, his supportes will take a majority of the seats and call for the referendum or his opponents will maintain control and not call for it. Either way the Hondurans will have spoken.
So you don't need factual knowledge? Then how do you know that the votes in Honduras aren't rigged?
Quote:

The facts on the ground are that Zelaya forced this constitutional crisis by telling the other two branches to go screw themselves and they pushed back. Ever heard of balance of power? Their constitution is the LAW of the country. Not a set of objectives or guidelines but the LAW. Zelaya was the one ignoring it.
How do you feel about stoning women? That's the LAW in some countries.

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Friday, July 3, 2009 6:56 PM

FIVVER


Quote:

So you don't need factual knowledge? Then how do you know that the votes in Honduras aren't rigged?


Zelaya got elected the first time didn't he?

Quote:



How do you feel about stoning women? That's the LAW in some countries.



Gee, I'm in favor of a law that does not allow one man to call for a referendum to make himself president for life so it immediately follows that I'm in favor of a law that allows stoning of women. Please pretend to have a brain.

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Friday, July 3, 2009 7:09 PM

FIVVER


And while we're at it, here's the makeup of the Honduran congress:
e • d Summary of the 27 November 2005 National Congress of Honduras election results Parties Seats
Liberal Party of Honduras (Partido Liberal de Honduras) 62
National Party of Honduras (Partido Nacional de Honduras) 55
Democratic Unification Party (Partido de Unificación Democrática) 5
Christian Democratic Party of Honduras (Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Honduras) 4
Innovation and Unity Party (Partido Innovación y Unidad) 2
Total votes: 1,833,710 (turnout 45.97 %) 128
Registered voters: 3,988,605

Here's another fun fact everyone seems to be ignoring:

Interim president Micheletti was president of the Honduran Congress and is a member, [bold]as was Zelaya, of the ruling Liberal party.[/bold]

In other words, Zelaya was thrown out by his own party and replaced by a member of his own party.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/07/01/opinion/main5127771.shtml




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Friday, July 3, 2009 7:35 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Zelaya got elected the first time didn't he?
Yes, he did. But clearly something changed during his tenure.
Quote:

Gee, I'm in favor of a law that does not allow one man to call for a referendum to make himself president for life
The referendum was a NONBINDING VOTE to get a sense of whether the people favored allowing a President to run for a second term. (Honduran law only allows one four-year term.) Depending on the result of the vote, then the CONGRESS would have taken up the issue. "President for life" is whole-cloth propaganda.
Quote:

so it immediately follows that I'm in favor of a law that allows stoning of women. Please pretend to have a brain.
No, what it means is that you think some laws are better than others. So simply saying It's THE LAW does not represent your true position. what you MEAN is that you feel the Honduran law is fair and reasonable. Do you happen to know Honduran law?

My point is... we don't really know WHAT'S going on, but I'm seeing a lot of spin in regards to Iran and Honduras, just as there is a lot of spin about Iraq. Don't be so quick to decide what's going on, because right now nobody has the facts.

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Saturday, July 4, 2009 4:22 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
So, since the Iranian Supreme Leader said that vote was OK and refused a re-vote that's fine with you too.



About as fine as letting the President of Honduras call an illegal referendum to start the process of having himself named president-for-life, a la his buddy Chavez.

If he wanted the referendum, there were legal means available to him. If he had the support of the people, they could have influenced congress to call for the vote. Instead, he sidestepped the constitution and the Supreme Court, arrogating to himself powers he did not have under the law.

You accuse Pres. Bush of doing the same thing and call for his impeachment, Why not Pres. Zelaya?



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, July 4, 2009 4:37 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
The referendum was a NONBINDING VOTE to get a sense of whether the people favored allowing a President to run for a second term.



So? It was still illegal for the president to instigate such a referendum. He was told so by both the Congress and the Supreme Court, and declared he would hold it anyway. I would have preferred that the Congress impeach him. If he returns to Honduras, they have stated they will arrest and try him.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, July 4, 2009 4:50 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Hmmm. Interesting article that quotes at length from the Honduran Constitution.

http://www.redcounty.com/memo-president-obama-read-honduran-constituti
on?taxonomy=26


These folk are really serious about not having a president-for-life.

"Title II, Chapter 3: (citizens)
Article 42: The legal rights of any citizen is lost:
5) If the citizen incites, promotes, or supports the continuance or the re-election of the President of the Republic;"

Also,

"Title II, Chapter 4: (executive power)
Article 238: In order to become the President of the Republic or designated to the Presidency, one must:
3) Be in possesion of a citizen's legal rights;"

So, in supporting the re-election of himself, the President forfeits his citizen's legal rights and can no longer be president.

Article 374 states that the constitutional amendment process cannot be used to change, among other things, the current presidential term limit. So the only way the President could have more than one term would be to suspend the Constitution, sort'a like his buddy, President-for-life Chavez, did.


"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, July 4, 2009 5:21 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

You accuse Pres. Bush of doing the same thing and call for his impeachment, Why not Pres. Zelaya?



You accuse Zelaya of doing the same thing and call for his ouster. Why not Bush?

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Saturday, July 4, 2009 5:25 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Can someone show me where it says "president-for-life" anywhere in ANY of the Honduran constitution or the proposed referendum?

Is he trying to be "president-for-life" in the same way that Bloomberg declared himself mayor-for-life in New York? Where was all of your outrage when that happened?

Or could it be that the whole "president-for-life" is just something you're making up out of thin air, a lie in other words?

Say it ain't so, Geez - tell me you aren't just parroting the party line.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.



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Saturday, July 4, 2009 6:27 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Can someone show me where it says "president-for-life" anywhere in ANY of the Honduran constitution or the proposed referendum?


Okay, President for more than one term, then. Under the Honduran constitution, as linked to above, it's not only illegal for a president to serve more than one term, it's illegal to politic for the president to serve more than one term, or to try and change the constitution so the president can serve more than one term.

The "President-for-life" comments come from comparing Pres. Zelaya's actions with those of his buddy Pres. Chavez of Venezuela, who has suspended the Venezuelan Constitution, packed the Venezuelan Congress and Supreme Court, and pretty much made himself...President-for-life. Zelaya would have to do the same things to run for another term, and was starting down that road, so the comparison seems apt.

Or, since Zelaya is only violating the laws and Constitution of Honduras by trying to be president for more than one term (he says), rather than president for life, does that excuse his actions?

Quote:

Is he trying to be "president-for-life" in the same way that Bloomberg declared himself mayor-for-life in New York? Where was all of your outrage when that happened?
What Bloomberg did, although I consider it a bad idea, was done legally. Zelaya's actions were in direct contravention of the Hondurian Constitution.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, July 4, 2009 6:40 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Basically, we're talking about term limits.

Personally I would have liked to have seen an independent poll taken in order to get a sense of how the population felt about the issue. My understanding is that Zelaya's popularity was rising among the poorer segment of the population, and that threatened the wealthy (which includes the Congress and the Supreme Court) With a Presidential vote coming up in November, if Zelaya had as much support as some people claim (and I have no idea) people might have wanted a chance to vote for him again.


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Saturday, July 4, 2009 8:36 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Basically, we're talking about term limits.



And the Honduran Constitution sets the term limit for the President, and also has a provision that that term limit cannot be changed by Constitutional Amendment. Now stop for a second and think why such a thing would be included in the Honduran Constitution in such strong terms.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, July 4, 2009 8:46 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, I have, and I understand the intention. But I've always thought term limits were stupid for a number of reasons.

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Saturday, July 4, 2009 10:55 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, I have, and I understand the intention.


Then you might also understand why he was removed from where he could have called on military forces loyal to him personally, rather than to the country, instead of just being impeached in place. The history of strong men in Central and South America has to inform the decisions of every constitutional government there.

Quote:

But I've always thought term limits were stupid for a number of reasons.


And the Constitution of Honduras says they are needed, and will always be needed, for reasons that seem perfectly clear to the Hondurans.

Pres. Zelaya clearly violated the provisions of the Constitution which ban politicking for extending the term of the President. He'd be gone one way or the other. Would you have preferred Zelayaist military fighting it out in the streets with military loyal to the constitutional government? That's happened enough in the region to motivate the government to try something different.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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