REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Another non-surprise

POSTED BY: RUE
UPDATED: Friday, August 7, 2009 11:37
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Tuesday, July 21, 2009 9:13 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Teen Pregnancy and Disease Rates Rose Sharply During Bush Years, Agency Finds

• AIDS cases in adolescent boys have nearly doubled
• Fall in gonorrhea infection rate reversed
by Chris McGreal in Washington

Teenage pregnancies and syphilis have risen sharply among a generation of American school girls who were urged to avoid sex before marriage under George Bush's evangelically-driven education policy, according to a new report by the US's major public health body.

(Blend Images/Getty Images)In a report that will surprise few of Bush's critics on the issue, the Centres for Disease Control says years of falling rates of teenage pregnancies and sexually transmitted disease infections under previous administrations were reversed or stalled in the Bush years. According to the CDC, birth rates among teenagers aged 15 or older had been in decline since 1991 but are up sharply in more than half of American states since 2005. The study also revealed that the number of teenage females with syphilis has risen by nearly half after a significant decrease while a two-decade fall in the gonorrhea infection rate is being reversed. The number of Aids cases in adolescent boys has nearly doubled.

The CDC says that southern states, where there is often the greatest emphasis on abstinence and religion, tend to have the highest rates of teenage pregnancy and STDs.

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Tuesday, July 21, 2009 10:28 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


*gasp* You mean to suggest that education is the answer? No wai!

[/sig]

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Tuesday, July 21, 2009 10:49 AM

BYTEMITE


But sex is icky and exposure to it will corrupt our sinful, blasphemous young!

My GOD, I was PRODUCED by sex! /ends self

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Tuesday, July 21, 2009 11:17 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Remember, you must all tell your children that sex is wrong and a sin, and if they do it they'll be punished by having children of their own. That oughta make them feel loved and wanted, right?

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Tuesday, July 21, 2009 11:20 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


My parents (Polish) had a very Eastern European attitude - just wait till you grow up and have children of your own (a threat, not a promise).

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Tuesday, July 21, 2009 11:21 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Rue,

Please provide a link to the study in question. Oh, and of course it was Bush's fault. Why blame the parents when you can blame big, bad Bush.

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Tuesday, July 21, 2009 11:26 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Yeah, after all, things had been going hunky-dory for all those years but then all of the SUDDEN !, like WOW ! the parents just got really bad, all over the country ! They all musta' talked or somethin' ...

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Get a grip, loser.

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Tuesday, July 21, 2009 12:20 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Yeah, after all, things had been going hunky-dory for all those years but then all of the SUDDEN !, like WOW ! the parents just got really bad, all over the country ! They all musta' talked or somethin' ...


Could be, still waiting on that link.

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Tuesday, July 21, 2009 12:25 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Fingers broken ? Know how to be a stupid troll and STILL don't know how to google ?

Loser.

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Let me just repeat what is it you think could REALLY have happened ... so people don't miss what a loser you are:

"Yeah, after all, things had been going hunky-dory for all those years but then all of the SUDDEN !, like WOW ! the parents just got really bad, all over the country ! They all musta' talked or somethin' ..."


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Tuesday, July 21, 2009 12:37 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Or you could go to The Guardian (UK):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/20/bush-teen-pregnancy-cdc-re
port


It's not hard to find - if you look.

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Tuesday, July 21, 2009 1:55 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Fingers broken ? Know how to be a stupid troll and STILL don't know how to google ?


Perhaps it is trollish to continually quote sources and not provide the link to the source quoted. Even though you have been continually asked to do so.

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Tuesday, July 21, 2009 1:57 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Or you could go to The Guardian (UK):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/20/bush-teen-pregnancy-cdc-re
port


It's not hard to find - if you look.


Thank-you Rue, was that so hard?

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Tuesday, July 21, 2009 4:11 PM

FREMDFIRMA


That's another reason why my youngest niece will listen to no one else.

She didn't get "the talk" till she was fifteen, cause all the adults flat refused to tell her anything, and worse, what they did speak of, they LIED about.

Didn't do a lot for her already slim faith in adults, that.

She got the same "sex-ed" from the same school I did, even now many years later, naught more than a 40 minute lecture consisting of more or less "this is sex, it's bad, don't do it" - so much for education, eh ?

Adding to the problem is the toxicity of the local cultural attitudes, since boys in that area are almost NEVER upbraided or penalized whatsoever for their conduct no matter how far they take it - which compounded by her own nonviolent tendencies is a recipe for disaster held in check only by the belief amongst those punks that her uncle works for the mafia.

I fear she's gonna wind up like most of her classmates and wind up with some scumbag "boyfriend" she in fact despises just to keep the other boys hands off her.

Amazing that for all their investment into control and surveillance (156 cameras, minus the four in the bathrooms removed after a certain assistant administrator was proven to be voyeurising..) they cannot seem to control the conduct of their male students towards the girls, but heaven forfend you bring gum to school, oh noes...

Anyhows, that issue isn't the least of my peeves about public school, but I do have a novel suggestion if the school and the family can't manage to bring up the topic.

Have the family doctor explain matters, they're a neutral party, trusted medical professional, and can probably handle it in the matter of fact way that it should be.

Cheap at the price, and considering the potential consequences of inaction.

-F

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Tuesday, July 21, 2009 7:57 PM

AGENTROUKA


One thing I enjoyed about growing up in Germany was that teen magazines cover sex really very well.

I learned a LOT as a 12-year-old, by reading a steady litany of "Aids - avoid it, use condoms" or reading question/answer collumns like "How should I prepare for my first time with my boyfriend?", "When we have sex, I don't enjoy it, what should I do?", "I can't talk to my parents, where can I get birth control".

The answers: condoms condoms condoms, lube, TALK TO each other and your doctors.

Overall, kids here are pretty well educated about safe sex.


Do American teen magazines deal with this sort of thing?

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 1:08 AM

RIPWASH


Whoa! Hold the phone!

Not too long ago, Rue, you told me that government sites couldn't be completely trusted due to Bush's meddling in the information.

But now you are quoting a source that used a government site (the CDC) for their information? Why didn't Bush attempt to cover that information up if he was so down-right sneaky and evil?

*********************************************

"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 1:26 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
One thing I enjoyed about growing up in Germany was that teen magazines cover sex really very well.

I learned a LOT as a 12-year-old, by reading a steady litany of "Aids - avoid it, use condoms" or reading question/answer collumns like "How should I prepare for my first time with my boyfriend?", "When we have sex, I don't enjoy it, what should I do?", "I can't talk to my parents, where can I get birth control".

The answers: condoms condoms condoms, lube, TALK TO each other and your doctors.

Overall, kids here are pretty well educated about safe sex.


Do American teen magazines deal with this sort of thing?



Sadly, no. They talk mostly about how hot Zac Ephron is, what the Jonas Brothers had for lunch or how Miley Cyrus dumped her latest boyfriend.

But yeah. To blame this on Bush is just ridiculous. The responsibility of sex ed lies squarely on the shoulders of the parents. So, the parents failed and it was probably a gradual thing. Not some sudden, "Hey! Bush is in office and telling me NOT to have sex because it's eeeevil! Let's do it just to make him look bad!" I mean really . . . how many kids really pay attention to what politicians are saying? And did Bush really make some sort of mandate that had to be carried out "or else?" I don't recall that being put into law or anything.

I've had "the talk" with my son and he was 12 at the time, I think. Why? Because he was caught looking at some inappropriate sites. So I had to sit him down and go over some do's and don'ts. And yes, being a Christian, I told him it's better to wait until he's married, but I also shared MY past with him which included a fair share of fooling around before marriage and plenty of looking at inappropriate sites. I told him that comparing the two, I really should have waited. Not that it was evil or whatever, but that our belief system tells us that that behavior kinda spoils the marriage experience and the affection we should have only for our wives. Why didn't I yell at him and punish him? Because that only drives any urges he may have deeper and make him not want to share any of his emotions or feelings with me ever again. I've made it perfectly clear that he can come and talk to me about anything and I won't get mad. I've left the door wide open for him to come and talk to me at any time and I often bring things up myself.

Oh . . . Rue, I'll point this out because I know you'd do the same for me . . . the Guardian is a left-leaning, liberal media outlet. So surely you meant to use a NON-partisan site for your source, eh?

*********************************************

"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 1:42 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by Rue:
"Yeah, after all, things had been going hunky-dory for all those years but then all of the SUDDEN !, like WOW ! the parents just got really bad, all over the country ! They all musta' talked or somethin' ..."


That was my whole point to begin with. I'm guessing your aim was to somwhow show that teen pregnancies and std's were less under Clinton then they were under Bush. I say why let the government decide what is the best way to go about sex education.

I also think this article is somewhat lacking in regards to corollary evidence. Are the number of teen pregnancies more as a whole or as a percentage of teens in general? Are more teens getting pregnant / std's or are there just more teens?

Does it naturally follow that pregnancies / std's are up because of Bush's policy? Does it have anything to do with the fact that society as a whole is becoming more sexualized? Do you think Clinton knew what sexting was? Were most kids able to download porn to their i-phones during the Clinton years?

How about the non-stop sexual messages and innuendos that constantly bombard us over the airwaves? Have those increased or decreased since Clinton held the big chair?

Heck, even your linked article comes to no definitive conclusions.

Although the CDC does not attribute a cause, groups that support comprehensive sex education have seized on the report as evidence of the failure of religiously-driven policies that shy away from teaching about contraception in favour of emphasising avoiding sexual contact.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/20/bush-teen-pregnancy-cdc-re
port


I thought those on the left wanted government to stay out of their bedrooms. Do you want them in your kid's?




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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 3:32 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Quote:

Originally posted by Rue:
"Yeah, after all, things had been going hunky-dory for all those years but then all of the SUDDEN !, like WOW ! the parents just got really bad, all over the country ! They all musta' talked or somethin' ..."


That was my whole point to begin with. I'm guessing your aim was to somwhow show that teen pregnancies and std's were less under Clinton then they were under Bush. I say why let the government decide what is the best way to go about sex education.

I also think this article is somewhat lacking in regards to corollary evidence. Are the number of teen pregnancies more as a whole or as a percentage of teens in general? Are more teens getting pregnant / std's or are there just more teens?

Does it naturally follow that pregnancies / std's are up because of Bush's policy? Does it have anything to do with the fact that society as a whole is becoming more sexualized? Do you think Clinton knew what sexting was? Were most kids able to download porn to their i-phones during the Clinton years?

How about the non-stop sexual messages and innuendos that constantly bombard us over the airwaves? Have those increased or decreased since Clinton held the big chair?

Heck, even your linked article comes to no definitive conclusions.

Although the CDC does not attribute a cause, groups that support comprehensive sex education have seized on the report as evidence of the failure of religiously-driven policies that shy away from teaching about contraception in favour of emphasising avoiding sexual contact.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/20/bush-teen-pregnancy-cdc-re
port


I thought those on the left wanted government to stay out of their bedrooms. Do you want them in your kid's?






Good points, BDN. I didn't think of the sexting and cell phone issues. Those are completely relevant.

I also agree with the innuendo over the airwaves. You can't even go to ABC Family anymore without being bombarded with that kind of behavior. It's shown there as being okay and normal, so that's what kids want to emulate - what they see on TV and hear in their music. Heck, even FoxNews.com has a Babe of the week thing featuring a photo spread from Maxim magazine. My point here is that the entertainment industry can be considered mostly liberal, right? Always looking for ways to "push the envelope" to see what they can get away with. So more and more stuff is allowed to be seen and heard on TV. And to think THAT doesn't have an ever-increasing effect on kids today with the addition of the increasing lack of parental involvement and the mindset of many folk today may just be a little naive.

*********************************************

"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 4:58 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


So while neither of you see a correlation between Bush-era abstinence-only "education" and the rise of teen pregnancy and STDs (I wonder if Bristol Palin sees a correlation?), you DO see a correlation between the media and such statistics.

I take it neither of you ever listened to Judas Priest; if you had, you'd have no doubt killed yourself by now! (Look up the lawsuit if you don't get that joke)

What you're arguing is that kids couldn't be susceptible to the kinds of things they're taught in school (i.e., sex education in health class). But then you also want to argue that we must stop teaching evolution, because kids are far too susceptible to what they're taught in school.

Curious, that.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.


If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college...

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:02 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Perhaps it is trollish to continually quote sources and not provide the link to the source quoted. Even though you have been continually asked to do so."

Only by TROLLS like you and Geezer who seem to ask NO ONE ELSE for sources. So jeeze, it's not like you're REALLY interested in sources, are you ? It's pretty obvious to everyone - you're just out to be trolls and idiots.


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Though it's not like you actually have any ability to be anything else. You - born a bottom feeder, always will be one.

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:06 AM

BYTEMITE


Those could definitely be factors, though I think we'd have to show that sexting leads to pregnancy.

But I think there's a teenage mindset that is being completely ignored, and it's BEEN ignored since sexual liberation in the 60s. Teenagers are CURIOUS. They hear about sex, there's such an emphasis about having sex as a monumental life milestone that they feel ENCOURAGED to have it even when everyone is telling them no, it's a bad idea. Mixed messages abound. Since when do teens listen to people telling them what's a bad idea if they want to do something or are under peer pressure to do so?

My thinking is, if they're going to do it anyway, give them all the information they need to protect themselves... And to not be traumatized by it, because, hey, isn't always good, particularly if they choose less than admirable partners for their first time, or cling to such a partner. You can still teach kids belief in sex and marriage as being preferable, but that should be the realm of the parent, I think, not the school.

I don't understand parents who want to limit their children's knowledge on an issue that could cause them harm. I think that's bad parenting, if not outright negligence. It can be almost criminal in cases, especially if it results in fights over any resulting pregnancies, whether the teenage mother must keep her baby, or whether she's forced to abort it.

I'd also be interested in the effect that the movie Juno is having on teenage ideas of pregnancy. The oddest things can become trendy... Though I have to say, I love that movie for how accepting and supportive the families are.

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:08 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Whoa! Hold the phone!

Not too long ago, Rue, you told me that government sites couldn't be completely trusted due to Bush's meddling in the information.

But now you are quoting a source that used a government site (the CDC) for their information? Why didn't Bush attempt to cover that information up if he was so down-right sneaky and evil?"

DUDE - have you NOTICED there is a new face in the WH ? Or did that escape your little mind ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:12 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"The responsibility of sex ed lies squarely on the shoulders of the parents. So, the parents failed ..."

And where children USED to get helpful information in school, DUE TO BUSH THAT ALL STOPPED. And HOW did it stop ? BUSH REFUSED TO PROVIDE FEDERAL EDUCATION FUNDS FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN ABSTINENCE ONLY SEX ED.

Tell me, does it take a lot of effort to be such a big idiot ? Or does it come naturally to you ?

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:12 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"Whoa! Hold the phone!

Not too long ago, Rue, you told me that government sites couldn't be completely trusted due to Bush's meddling in the information.

But now you are quoting a source that used a government site (the CDC) for their information? Why didn't Bush attempt to cover that information up if he was so down-right sneaky and evil?"

DUDE - have you NOTICED there is a new face in the WH ? Or did that escape your little mind ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.



DUDETTE!!! My little mind notices that every day. But still, the statistics I used were from a government site AFTER Obama took office and you still claimed it was tainted by BUSH!

So, please. Stop talking down to me.

*********************************************

"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:12 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"Whoa! Hold the phone!

Not too long ago, Rue, you told me that government sites couldn't be completely trusted due to Bush's meddling in the information.

But now you are quoting a source that used a government site (the CDC) for their information? Why didn't Bush attempt to cover that information up if he was so down-right sneaky and evil?"

DUDE - have you NOTICED there is a new face in the WH ? Or did that escape your little mind ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.



DUDETTE!!! My little mind notices that every day. But still, the statistics I used were from a government site AFTER Obama took office and you still claimed it was tainted by BUSH!

So, please. Stop talking down to me.

*********************************************

"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:12 AM

BYTEMITE


I think the argument being made there, Rue, is how could the CDC have gathered data if the efforts to do so were being repressed?

The answer is that they STILL gather the data and even keep it on file, but the REPORTS issued to the public/congress are editted and censored heavily, often to promote the OPPOSITE political stance that the numbers would normally suggest.

At the EPA, for example, there's a union of scientists, and they RARELY see eye-to-eye with their administrative supervisors. They protect the information, and in more favourable political climates, they then release their findings as they originally wanted them to be released.

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:14 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"The responsibility of sex ed lies squarely on the shoulders of the parents. So, the parents failed ..."

And where children USED to get helpful information in school, DUE TO BUSH THAT ALL STOPPED. And HOW did it stop ? BUSH REFUSED TO PROVIDE FEDERAL EDUCATION FUNDS FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN ABSTINENCE ONLY SEX ED.

Tell me, does it take a lot of effort to be such a big idiot ? Or does it come naturally to you ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.



Funny how the name calling has started so easily with you lately.

So, Government should be responsible for each and every decision we make as parents. Is that what you're saying. That PARENTS really have no input into what or how or when their children should be taught something so delicate as sex education?

Hmmmmmm . . .

*********************************************

"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:14 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"... the statistics I used ..."

You did ? Where ? You cited NO statistics. Are you making shit up again ? Or lying, like usual ?

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:17 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"So, Government should be responsible for each and every decision we make as parents. Is that what you're saying. That PARENTS really have no input into what or how or when their children should be taught something so delicate as sex education?

Hmmmmmm . . ."

And yet once again, you fail to read simple English with any comprehension. Maybe if you go back, and read rreeaaalllyy, r-r-e-e-e-a-a-a-a-l-l-l-l-y-y-y-y-y sloooooooowly, you might get it this time.



***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:19 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"... the statistics I used ..."

You did ? Where ? You cited NO statistics. Are you making shit up again ? Or lying, like ususal ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.



*Sigh*

I don't recall the thread. It was several months ago so I don't really expect you to remember, but it was a government related medical site and you lept right in saying it was tainted by Bush. As you so pointedly said to me in yet another thread (no I can't remember which one) I don't have the time to go hunt it down and prove you wrong.

Sheesh! You're mighty tetchy lately.

I know . . . I know . . . it's all my fault for being so partisan.



*********************************************

"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:20 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
I think the argument being made there, Rue, is how could the CDC have gathered data if the efforts to do so were being repressed?

The answer is that they STILL gather the data and even keep it on file, but the REPORTS issued to the public/congress are editted and censored heavily, often to promote the OPPOSITE political stance that the numbers would normally suggest.

At the EPA, for example, there's a union of scientists, and they RARELY see eye-to-eye with their administrative supervisors. They protect the information, and in more favourable political climates, they then release their findings as they originally wanted them to be released.



Maybe you need to explain that to the idiots on the board like Big8888Nobody and Rip, since they seem unable to comprehend HOW it is that one administration might suppress or misrepresent reports at the administrative level.

***************************************************************

If you don't believe me, see the idiocy posted just above.

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:24 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"So, Government should be responsible for each and every decision we make as parents. Is that what you're saying. That PARENTS really have no input into what or how or when their children should be taught something so delicate as sex education?

Hmmmmmm . . ."

And yet once again, you fail to read simple English with any comprehension. Maybe if you go back, and read rreeaaalllyy, r-r-e-e-e-a-a-a-a-l-l-l-l-y-y-y-y-y sloooooooowly, you might get it this time.



***************************************************************

Silence is consent.



Oh no. Clearly by reading very slowly, which you're obviously not doing either, you stated that it was because of the Bush Adminstration's policies that this sudden rise took place. You make no mention of taking into consideration what BDM or I said about our culture that keeps pushing these ideas on the youth of today or the responsibilities of the parents. Therefore, you lay the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of the government with no one else to blame but Bush.

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:34 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
So while neither of you see a correlation between Bush-era abstinence-only "education" and the rise of teen pregnancy and STDs (I wonder if Bristol Palin sees a correlation?), you DO see a correlation between the media and such statistics.

I take it neither of you ever listened to Judas Priest; if you had, you'd have no doubt killed yourself by now! (Look up the lawsuit if you don't get that joke)

What you're arguing is that kids couldn't be susceptible to the kinds of things they're taught in school (i.e., sex education in health class). But then you also want to argue that we must stop teaching evolution, because kids are far too susceptible to what they're taught in school.

Curious, that.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.


If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college...



I didn't say I didn't see a correlation, I just find it curious that Rue's intent of this thread is to supposedly lay the entire thing squarely on Bush's shoulders when there are SO many more things involved in the equation to make that hypothesis a little more than humorous. At least to me, anyway. Aside from the technology, media, music, etc. I think the entire mindset of our culture nowadays has become more than lax. I know more kids in 7th-8th grade whose parents let them watch practically any movie they want regardless of the rating. So you tell me THAT doesn't have an effect on how a kids sees and reacts to the world around them? Sure you can teach sex ed in school, but their surroundings are gonna tell them something entirely different.



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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:41 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"... our culture that keeps pushing these ideas on the youth of today ..."

And was it different 4 years ago ? 5 ? CLEARLY you mean to say that there was SUCH a radical cultural shift that (though SOMEhow it escaped notice !) it drove HIV rate to DOUBLE in 4 years ! If THAT is what you are thinking, CLEARLY you are an idiot.

"... or the responsibilities of the parents."

And CLEARLY you don't know how to read. Where did I post that when parents didn't do the job it USED to be done by the schools until your 'hero' dubya cut funding for that little bit of education ? Did you manage to read that ? Was it not addressing the role of the parents ?

Go back and find it. Spell it out, if you have to.




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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:46 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"... SO many more things involved in the equation ..."

Only in your sad twisted little mind. None of which you can make a case for that is anything but laughable to anyone else.

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:47 AM

STORYMARK


I have had students, girls mostly, ask me in all seriousness if it's true that if a girl drinks nothing but Mountain Dew, she cannot get pregnant. Thay've also heard that drinking a capful of bleach before sex prevents pregnancy.

Who needs sex ed?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:48 AM

MALACHITE


I'm sure people have made this point before, but noone has this thread so I'll chime in: correlation is not causation. So, even though we would agree that std rates, teen pregnancy, abortions(?), etc are rising, and even though they have been rising over the past 8 years, we cannot say that Bush's change of sex education policies has caused that rise. We can only say that it is a coincidence that is perhaps worth looking into.

I personally think that a more reasonable hypothesis for why std rates, etc are rising is because it is more socially acceptable to be having sex, rating standards have continually dropped (ie more sexually inappropriate things can be seen on mainstream tv), our media is overly sexualized (music videos and glamour magazines emphasizing the need to have a beautiful body and our emphasis on keeping women as scantily clad as possible so they will be desirable to men or have power over them) and the negative consequences of sexualized behavior are continually downplayed in the media (and, in fact, it is actually "cool" to be sexually active and you are a loser if you aren't because everyone else is.) No, I don't have links to studies, this is just my opinion based on personal experience. I can also tell you that most of the young adults I counsel who are sexually active know about the risks of stds and pregnancy and know about barrier contraception and oral contraceptives but for whatever reason still choose not to use both of them.

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:49 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"... our culture that keeps pushing these ideas on the youth of today ..."

And was it different 4 years ago ? 5 ? CLEARLY you mean to say that there was SUCH a radical cultural shift that suddenly, without anyone noticing it happening ! - it drove HIV rate to DOUBLE in 4 years ! If THAT is what you are thinking, CLEARLY you are an idiot.

"... or the responsibilities of the parents."

And CLEARLY you don't know how to read. Where did I post that whne parents did't do the job it USED to be done by the schools until your 'hero' dubya cut funding for that little bit of education. Did you manage to read trhat ? Spell it out if you have to.




***************************************************************

Silence is consent.



Again with the names when I haven't called you a single thing. Hmmmm? And you guys say the Conservatives always start the name calling.

If YOU haven't noticed that it gets worse and worse with each passing year then you're obviously not paying attention. What media and entertainment get away with nowadays (and during the Bush Administration) compared to the Clinton era is pretty hefty. Like I said . . . gradual. Or didn't you read that part?

And I didn't say that you mentioned anything about the parents. You said NOTHING about the responsibility of parents and that was my whole point, that parents need to be more involved and not rely on schools or government to educate their kids on such a delicate subject. Would you agree to that or not? Let's be civil.



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"What does that mean?!?!?!"

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:52 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:


So, Government should be responsible for each and every decision we make as parents. Is that what you're saying. That PARENTS really have no input into what or how or when their children should be taught something so delicate as sex education?



Straw man alert! Whoop whoop!


"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:53 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:


So, Government should be responsible for each and every decision we make as parents. Is that what you're saying. That PARENTS really have no input into what or how or when their children should be taught something so delicate as sex education?



Straw man alert! Whoop whoop!


"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."



What? Where?



Oh my.

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 5:59 AM

BYTEMITE


Malachite: But it's been like that through the 80s and 90s. I, like the others, think that there happens to be another factor if in the past few years there's been a sharp increase (and that seems to be what the articles are saying), and I for one am inclined to believe it's policy in school, which has a large effect on the macro-level behaviour of teenagers.

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 6:04 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"If YOU haven't noticed that it gets worse and worse with each passing year ..."

If YOUR baseline only goes back 5 years then of course you see a small ripple as a BIG mountain. BIG picture - 1978 - Pretty Baby. 1970's - Rolling Stones. Rap music - 1970's and on even to today. If you were interested (which I guarantee you are not, b/c your mind is made up and you WILL stick with your pathetic little notions) you could find just as bad, just as much, over the last 30 years. Deal with it. Sex sells, and we live in a profit-above-all culture.


"You said NOTHING about the responsibility of parents and that was my whole point..."

You're friggin' kidding me --- right ? Did you NOT get the idea that many parents DON'T exercise their responsibilities ? Did you NOT get that from any of my posts ? Is that NOT a way of addressing the role of the parents, even if it is to describe how they FAIL at that role ?


I refuse to be civil to someone who is making a POINT of being an idiot.

Now, don't go away mad. Just go away.


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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 6:14 AM

RIPWASH


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
If YOUR baseline only goes back 5 years then of course you see a small ripple as a BIG mountain. BIG picture - 1978 - Pretty Baby. 1970's - Rolling Stones. Rap music - 1970's and on even to today. If you were interested (which I guarantee you are not, b/c your mind is made up and you WILL stick with your pathetic little notions) you could find just as bad, just as much, over the last 30 years. Deal with it. Sex sells, and we live in a profit-above-all culture.



And you don't see the gradualness of how it's been getting progressively MORE blatant and acceptable? And where did I say 5 years? I believe I mentioned Clinton. More like 9 years or so.

Quote:

You're friggin' kidding me --- right ? Did you NOT get the idea that many parents DON'T exercise their responsibilities ? Did you NOT get that from any of my posts ? Is that NOT a way of addressing the role of the parents, even if it is to describe how they FAIL at that role ?
Then we agree. Thanks for agreeing with me. That makes me feel better. A simple, "Yes, I agree with you on that point" would have been sufficient, however.

Quote:

I refuse to be civil to someone who is making a POINT of being an idiot.
Despite your continued attempts to make yourself feel better by calling names and belittling others (it's very common actually, look it up), I'll continue to be civil to you. But I do find it funny that my statements are touching such a nerve with you today. Wake up on the wrong side of the bed or something? I'm just bringing other options to the table and/or asking for clarifications. That's all.

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 6:20 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by RIPWash:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Do American teen magazines deal with this sort of thing?


Sadly, no. They talk mostly about how hot Zac Ephron is, what the Jonas Brothers had for lunch or how Miley Cyrus dumped her latest boyfriend.



Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. They really should! It's probably even more effective than school-based sex ed.


Quote:


But yeah. To blame this on Bush is just ridiculous. The responsibility of sex ed lies squarely on the shoulders of the parents.




I have to say, though, that SINCE parents are failing and few other options exist, school-based sex ed becomes all the more important. It has the advantage of reaching a vast majority of kids with actual facts. Facts that can save the lives and health of many children (they do start young, these days) and prevent some bad mistakes.

I don't think that the problem of failing parents is best targeted by not offering an alternative to kids. I think that problem should be targeted parallel to school-based sex ed, because it will always be important.

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 6:28 AM

RIPWASH


Thanks for the civil response, AR.

I think another question we have to - or at least SHOULD - ask ourselves is. WHY are parents failing so badly in this area? Come to think of it, though . . . MY parents never had the "talk" with me. And I relied very heavily on the culture around me to guide and direct my actions. And I was a mess for quite a while. To be very honest, sex ed may have been a good idea, but I also may have just taken it all very jokingly because the pull of the culture is so much stronger.

Does that make sense?

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"What does that mean?!?!?!"

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 6:40 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Now, don't go away mad. Just go away.


I think it is time once again for you to retire, Mr. Favre.

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 6:44 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
So while neither of you see a correlation between Bush-era abstinence-only "education" and the rise of teen pregnancy and STDs (I wonder if Bristol Palin sees a correlation?), you DO see a correlation between the media and such statistics.


I disagree with your statement. I believe it is Rue who is having a hard time seeing all the angles here.
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
What you're arguing is that kids couldn't be susceptible to the kinds of things they're taught in school (i.e., sex education in health class). But then you also want to argue that we must stop teaching evolution, because kids are far too susceptible to what they're taught in school.

Curious, that.


Curious indeed, where's Storymark to sound the strawman alarm?


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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 7:59 AM

FREMDFIRMA


BYTE
Quote:

I don't understand parents who want to limit their children's knowledge on an issue that could cause them harm. I think that's bad parenting, if not outright negligence. It can be almost criminal in cases, especially if it results in fights over any resulting pregnancies, whether the teenage mother must keep her baby, or whether she's forced to abort it.

Ooooo, can of worms, this is, and let's just pry it open, shall we ?

It's not just sex, it's in fact far worse, and everyone pretends not to see.

A *LOT* of parents cripple their kids ability to strike out on their own for a whole host of reasons, not the least of which overprotectiveness, and in most cases it's as much deliberate as it is negligent.

A lot of the broken kids I deal with were never properly taught how to get along in the world, completely ignorant of the realities of living on ones own, never received any more information on how to manage a budget or run a household than they did on sex - and have no appreciable idea what the real expenses are, and if they do at all it's often wildly exaggerated in one direction or another.

And then, ignorant, clueless and just about helpless, ZING - out the door at eighteen, good bye and good riddance, an often savage break from a home they come to feel is a cage, in desperate flight from an environment that has hemmed in and cut off every avenue for them to develop as an adult person.

Disaster follows naturally as dawn.

My sister is currently a little pissed off at me for having one niece taught to drive, which I paid out of pocket, mind you, and backed up with some real, solid info on making it on your own, and contacts to obtain more information as well as backup and shared resources.

You can imagine what that girl did the night of her 18th B-day right ?

And so I am forbidden from teaching the youngest niece how to drive, she isn't allowed to have a job, not allowed to have friends over, not allowed to have a functioning computer, despite me paying out of pocket for a laptop so she could take networking classes at vo-tech, which got shitcanned by her mother, right along with the laptop...

Which is a combination of severe overprotectiveness and a certain kind of idiotic sense of entitlement - so what if that kid happens to be the only one willing to lift a finger to clean, cook or do laundry while momma works three jobs to cover the heinous expenses of her wrecked marriage, exploitive mortgage and brutal taxes.
(multiplied explonentially by having more than one job)
And this is most certainly not helped along by the expenses of the eldest niece dying from cervical cancer and GBS, which is another strain on the whole matter.

But she is a child, not a servant!
I've found that if so ask her nicely, she will cheerfully take on even unpleasant tasks without hesitation, she's a nice person and non aggressive to a degree that actually bothers me - but give her *orders* and you're asking for trouble - which leads the ridiculousness of her mother doing that KNOWING how stupid it is, and then eventually resolving it by ringing me on the phone and having ME ask her politely because momma couldn't overcome her ownership reflexes long enough for her brain to work...

Anyhows, the kid doesn't know how to drive, only the vaguest idea of how to minimally run a household, and no way does she know how to run a budget because I don't think the poor girl's ever had more than twenty bucks in her entire life, and I happen to be the one who gave it to her!

And were it not for the machinations of her crazy ole uncle, when she did finally and inevitably flee the coop, she'd be hanging out to dry pretty solid given that her immediate family willing or no, is un-ABLE to effectively back her up cause they are buried in their own problems, one of which using her as a personal servant is the current solution to.
(I wish I was exaggerating, but I spent two weeks on vacation there and watched it myself.)

So no, it's not just sex - there's a lot of life development which parents artificially block, actively sabotage, or otherwise hinder, and then have the gods-rotted NERVE to blame the kids for being "irresponsible"...

As if teaching them these things, or at the LEAST encouraging their development wasn't a parents proper responsibility ?!

We fail them, and then blame them for OUR failures - is it any wonder that they view us, our world and our culture with such bitterness ?

-Frem

PS. Sorry for the rant-ish tone, but it's a primo example and one I am currently upset as hell about for many reasons.

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Wednesday, July 22, 2009 8:02 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I believe I mentioned Clinton. More like 9 years or so.
How old are you? Too young to remember Woodstock? JFK? Marilyn Monroe?

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