'When you give up on yourself, you give up on your country.' by yinyang

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

'When you give up on yourself, you give up on your country.'

POSTED BY: YINYANG
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 19:29
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Monday, September 7, 2009 1:07 PM

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

The White House posted the speech Obama's going to give tomorrow:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/MediaResources/PreparedSchoolRemarks

There doesn't seem to be much in the way of indoctrination or partisanship, at least to my eyes, but what does trouble me is the "rah, rah, patriotism!" It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

And this:

Quote:
So don’t let us down – don’t let your family or your country or yourself down.

seems like waaay too much pressure. "Don't fuck up, because we're watching - all 300 million of us."

Not that I think most kids are going to be taking this speech to heart.

A witty saying proves nothing. - Voltaire

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Monday, September 7, 2009 1:11 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Nah, I don't think that many of them will take that seriously, tho' I'm not crazy about "rah rah nationalism" myself...

I just wish the right would shut up about "indoctrination", especially given what was mentioned in another thread about Reagan's REALLY indoctrination-filled speech to kids back 'when!

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Monday, September 7, 2009 4:22 PM

DREAMTROVE

The nationalism doesn't bother me, nor the egotism. I think he wants to keep kids, particularly black kids, from dropping out of school and joining gangs.

It's important to remember that this man comes from Hyde Park, Chicago, a neighborhood I know very well, and I imagine a few others here do also.

If you don't, then trust me, it's the sort of place that if you lived there, you might think this was the #1 issue facing the nation. And I'm not entirely sure he's wrong, on a domestic tranquility issue.

I just wish there was a little more attention being paid to the fiscal crisis and foreign policy disaster...

Still, I can't fault his lesson plan. I thought it was a good idea.

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 3:55 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

I honestly can't see how any one could have any problems with this.

*IF* you think the office of the president should be respected...

then don't we want our president to encourage kids to stay in school and take their education seriously and listen to their parents and think their country is pretty cool and good in a 5th grader's sense of the world? We're talking about school kids, right?

People really think this will brain wash them? How many people here had more nationalism growing up and (most) have not been so conditioned to not question authority, right?

Actually saw Newt Gingrich come out in favor of this speech - refreshing lack of rancor from the right for a change.

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 6:00 AM

FREMDFIRMA

I talked to my niece on the phone a day before, and her primary reaction to both being addressed by the president in such a fashion, and the idea that her and her classmates might take him seriously ?

Mocking laughter.

There's *reasons* these kids don't respect us and our society - and a good bit of my efforts go into trying to convince them to work collectively to change it for the better, instead of smashing it to flinders.

This speech is gonna have no more effect on todays youth than an evangelical leader caught in bed with an underage girl making a speech on the evils of sex and sin would have on folks of a different religon than his - he is authority, he is other, he is a visible figurehead of a system they feel cheated and abused by, so how much respect is he really gonna get, folks ?

That said, I respect his effort, doomed that it is, cause I do think he meant well.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 6:22 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM

The superintendent of a small school near where I live sent letters to the teachers of the school telling them that he would not allow the speech to be shown because the time would be better spent preparing for the TAKS testing - and yet he has absolutely no problem taking time for the weekly pep rally which usually takes two to three times as long as President Obamas speech would have been - a bit of convoluted (red state) logic seems to me...

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 6:25 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I talked to my niece on the phone a day before, and her primary reaction to both being addressed by the president in such a fashion, and the idea that her and her classmates might take him seriously ?

Mocking laughter.

I'm sorry to hear that, it's a "young" response for sure but I don't think that it's limited to young people, and I take that to be a very negative sign. It'd be fine if it was just general indifference on her part, since kids in high school or younger have way more important things in their life than education. But I see the Town Hall meeting out bursts and guns to be an extension of that as well - total lack of respect for the office and Obama. He hasn't earned it yet but I do think the office deserves it - even when that evil filth was in office.

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 6:55 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I honestly can't see how any one could have any problems with this.

My first reaction to the speech was 'uh oh'. I wanted to know what the speech would be about and how it fit into the larger political fight that was raging.

The White House made the mistake of bad timing and poor planning. They timed the speech for a moment of extreme political tension. Had the speech been given in May, there would have been no issue (and it fits a graduation theme). They also sent out the worksheet that made it seem they were circumventing the parents AND they failed to announce the content (not merely the text...but the subject matter) until well after the backlash had taken hold...suggesting that the content may have been changed.

The Democrats put it best in their opposition to this speech:

Quote:

"The Department of Education should not be producing paid political advertising for the president, it should be helping us to produce smarter students...And the president should be doing more about education than saying, 'Lights, camera, action.'"

I did not oppose this speech until I read the above statement...now I agree with the Democrats...the speech was wrong.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 7:06 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Stay in school. Work hard. Better yourself. Don't give up. God bless America.

Pretty standard. File off the serial numbers and change a few words and pretty much any politician or school administrator could use it.

Kids'll mostly ignore it, just like they always do. 10 years from now, when they're flipping samosas at McCurry, they'll say, "I wish I'd listened to President Obama".

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 7:20 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

The message itself was fine.

Lets see how the Dems and the Repubs spin it.

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 8:32 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
The White House made the mistake of bad timing and poor planning. They timed the speech for a moment of extreme political tension.

For this president the rest of his term is going to be one long period of extreme political tension.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
They also sent out the worksheet that made it seem they were circumventing the parents AND they failed to announce the content (not merely the text...but the subject matter) until well after the backlash had taken hold...suggesting that the content may have been changed.

Changing the text is probably him/his writers rolling their eyes, sucking it up and trying to appease the public - a mistake in my opinion - but it's a democracy, whaddya going to do?

As for the Dems' opinion... kids don't care about that either.

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 9:18 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Piz, actually just got off the horn with her cause I wanted her reaction to the idea, even if she didn't get to see the speech (I sent her the text), and her summation is pretty telling.

"When I have RIGHTS, when I can VOTE, and those people treat me like i'm a PERSON, instead of a gerbil in a cage running on a little wheel for them, maybe I might decide to listen that stuff, but probably not cause I know they're all liars."

Like I said, they see him as Authority, as Other, as part of the system they feel has cheated and abused them - if they felt that system was supportive and protective of them, a different opinion might spring from that well, but truth is, it's the ACTIONS of the system he's in charge of that they judge him by, and while that judgement is pretty damning...

I do not in any way think it unjustified.

Till we as a society regard em as people, they're not gonna care too much for us no more than a plantation slave gave a shit about his masters little homilies - supportive parents might be an exception, but as a rule our society treats our youth like shit, and they're oh so VERY well aware of it, thus as the primary representative of that society, he might as well just draw a bullseye on his face and hang it on the game room wall, as far as their feelings about it are concerned.

It's hard *enough* getting that girl to understand that some rules have a purpose beyond adults lording over her out of malice, exploitation or disregard for her personhood, and when she hits eighteen imma have to step in to protect society *from* her, cause I know where her mind is right now.

Anyhows, to her and her classmates, all this did was put a face to the boot that's been kicking them in the teeth all their lives.

-F

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 9:47 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Anyhows, to her and her classmates, all this did was put a face to the boot that's been kicking them in the teeth all their lives.

I got nothing here Frem - sorry. It's like you and I live in 2 different times and 2 different countries. I wish your niece the best - being angry is no way to go through life.

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 10:00 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Ahem...

To quote...

"If you aren't angry, you aren't paying attention..."

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 10:13 AM

DREAMTROVE

Frem.

Good point. That's a serious flaw I hadn't thought of. The president saying "buck up y'all" to people who are in 13 years of prison, particularly the ones he want to target, who live in a war zone, yeah, they would...

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 10:16 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Ahem...

To quote...

"If you aren't angry, you aren't paying attention..."

Piss off you flaming arsehole! Why I oughta...

I joke of course.

It's fine to be angry, but being angry doesn't FIX anything. Look at yourself, Mr. Captain Angry Poster, and you just posted "Tell me what to believe."
There's what? At least a million decent things to be angry about if you want to? If you don't make it work for you it might consume you though. I know people like that and they're just getting older.

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 11:11 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
being angry is no way to go through life.

Having done it, I can kinda attest to that - but damn, try getting it through to HER!
Kids every bit as jackass stubborn, ironheaded and downright frighteningly strong willed* as I was.

I have the words to convince her, I think, but it's gonna HAVE to come five minutes after midnite on the day she is eighteen, cause till then she's still.... "property", and nothing I say or do is gonna change that.

She might have a different chromosone set, but she's just about got the same brain in her head, which is why I understand her so well.

-F

PS, Re: Willpower...
I used to hold my breath till I passed out in Kindergarten not out of petulance or rage, but just to prove I could do it - and MAN did that weird out the teacher!

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 6:58 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by deadlockvictim:
The superintendent of a small school near where I live sent letters to the teachers of the school telling them that he would not allow the speech to be shown because the time would be better spent preparing for the TAKS testing - and yet he has absolutely no problem taking time for the weekly pep rally which usually takes two to three times as long as President Obamas speech would have been - a bit of convoluted (red state) logic seems to me...

Seems no matter how high he rises, some people just WILL NOT listen to a black man, or let him tell them what to do. I think it's really nice that they're willing to show such respect for the office of the Presidency - just as long as there's not a black man in that office, unless he's there to hold the door open or fetch coffee.

Mike

"It was already blue when we got here!"

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 7:07 PM

DREAMTROVE

Mike,

lol

But for real, like there was anyone who listened to Reagan when he did it?~?~?

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Tuesday, September 8, 2009 7:29 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Mike,

lol

But for real, like there was anyone who listened to Reagan when he did it?~?~?

Oh, it's not like anyone LISTENED (hell, Reagan himself couldn't remember what he'd said), but damned if they weren't forced to sit through that horseshit.

And someone remind me (and I'm sure I'm going to catch hell from Geezer for bringing it up, but fuck him)...

Where was Bush when they broke the news to him about 9/11? Was he "indoctrinating" kids? Would it have been "patriotic" for those kids to have walked out on him, or to not have shown up?

So let's all get on the same page: The President of the United States is allowed to address school children, or he's not. Ever.

Mike

"It was already blue when we got here!"

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