Hey Canucks out there, what have you to say for yourselves?[quote]Have you heard? Have you taken even a cursory peek lately into the oversi..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Hey Canucks...what about your oilsands?

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Sunday, October 11, 2009 11:24
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Thursday, October 8, 2009 9:29 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Hey Canucks out there, what have you to say for yourselves?
Quote:

Have you heard? Have you taken even a cursory peek lately into the oversized eco nightmare that is Canada's monstrous, pollutive, disgusting hellholes of rapacious greed and pollution and destruction and sheer capitalistic joy?
Oilsands emit more than entire countries: report
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/09/13/greenpeace-oilsands.html
Alberta's oilsands produce more greenhouse gas emissions than some European countries right now and will produce more than all of the world's volcanoes in just 11 years if the pace of development continues, a new report says.

"Dirty: How the Tarsands Are Fuelling Global Climate Change" is set to be released Monday.

Greenpeace commissioned award-winning author Andrew Nikiforuk, a business and environmental reporter, to write the report.

"Nobody in Canada wants to talk about the scale issues," he said in an interview Saturday.

"The emissions are bigger than Estonia and Lithuania right now and in 2020 will be larger than countries like Belgium, Austria, Ireland and Denmark."

The report documents the "real" cost of the oilsands, which Nikiforuk said are the world's largest energy project.

"The major energy projects in the Middle East,... they don't come anywhere near. None of them approach the scale and capital intensity of the oilsands."

The report says almost $200 billion has been or will be invested in the projects in northern Alberta, including not only the oilsands but pipelines, refinery expansions and other associated infrastructure.

It adds that the liabilities are a nearly threefold increase in greenhouse gas emissions, enormous amounts of natural gas used and wasted to produce synthetic oil from bitumen — which consists of tarry pitch, or asphalt — and the "economic nightmare" of carbon capture and storage, a technology that has yet to be developed.

Unproven technology

On Friday, the premiers of British Columbia, Alberta and Saskatchewan inked a deal pledging to work together on carbon capture and storage technology. In June, the Alberta government announced it was giving $2 billion to seven companies to fund three pilot projects.

But Nikiforuk points out that there is no commercial carbon capture and storage facility operating anywhere in the world.

The technology is being designed mainly for the coal-fired electricity plants operating in Alberta to fuel the energy-hungry oilsands and associated projects.

This is how it's envisioned to work: Carbon dioxide is captured from smokestacks and the gas is compressed and transported to be stored underground. The waste must be monitored for an undetermined amount of time, possibly for thousands of years, at an uncalculated cost to ensure that no leaks occur, the report says.

"Most governments are not good at monitoring things for five years, let alone a thousand years," Nikiforuk said.

He also said the money to pay for carbon capture and storage will come out of Canadian taxpayers' wallets.

"The estimate from the Carbon Capture Council in Alberta is that we're going to need $2 billion to $3 billion a year for the next 20 years. That's extraordinary, that's taxpayers' money.... Any fiscal conservative in the country should look at this and just be absolutely alarmed."

Nikiforuk compared it with the fledgling nuclear power industry nearly 50 years ago.

"It was going to be too cheap to meter, then it became too expensive to build, and I think carbon capture and storage will probably leave the same kind of legacy."

By the numbers: http://www.cbc.ca/edmonton/features/dirtyoil/numbers.html

Take a look: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2009/10/07/notes10070
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Quote:

They are, you might say, the finest example we currently have of a massive, soulless industry and a major first-world government shoving a giant middle finger in the face of all notions of progress and environmental integrity. They're not the only ones, to be sure -- the coal industry's middle finger is downright callused from flipping everyone off so aggressively -- but for sheer gall, for shamelessly stomping a greasy black boot heel into the face of environmental progress right now, the oilsands simply can't be beat.

They are true wonders, testaments to mankind's remarkable power to continue -- against every hunk of knowledge and common sense -- to rape, maul and utterly devastate everything we supposedly hold dear, all in the name of filthy profit.

Despite whatever good vibes you might've been feeling from all those rumors of a healthy global push toward sustainability and alternative energy, the oilsands remind you: no one really gives a flying f--k. Not when hundreds of billions of dollars are at stake. You cannot help but be perversely impressed.

Some argue the oilsands are the future of synthetic petroleum. Experts say there's enough black gold stuck deep in that greasy bitumen -- spread across a region the size of Florida -- that it could last us until we lose what's left of our souls and/or entirely block out the goddamn sun, whichever comes first. The problem, of course, is getting the toxic gunk out of the ground.

The numbers are simply astonishing: The amount of land, water, natural gas, and CO2 emissions required to produce a single barrel of synthetic oil from the oilsands is staggering enough, but when you add in all the contaminated rivers, the toxic tailing ponds (2.2 million Olympic-sized swimming pools' worth, and counting), the decimated landscape, the dead animals, the increased cancer rates among anyone living within a 100-mile radius, well, you've got more than enough charming data to effortlessly destroy any glimmer of positivism you might've enjoyed from composting your pizza boxes.

But that's not the ugliest part. The ugliest part is, the oilsand project is expanding as fast as inhumanly possible. It is already, according to various reports, the largest energy project in the world. Bigger than Saudi Arabia. Bigger than Wal-Mart. Bigger than Jesus.

So ugly and rapacious are the oilsands, so generally repulsive are the before/after images of what's being done to the land, you think there must be something wrong, like this can't really be happening; surely this must be illegal, you think, imagining a team of U.N. inspectors returning from Alberta any minute now and recommending immediate sanctions, military action, a coup against the government. You think this way because you are all sorts of adorable tofu utopian cotton-candy cupcake. You are also viciously naïve. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2009/10/07/notes10070
9.DTL&nl=fix



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Thursday, October 8, 2009 9:59 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Hey, I really wanna know what you guys got to say for yourownselves...I'm SURE we have a couple of Northerners here, how come you're not speaking up?

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Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 10:08 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


I have worked up at Fort Mac, and have built equipment for working up there...


I think our government ( who won't do this because they seem to think it is our responsibility to supply oil to the US ) should put a construction freeze on new projects in this area. Their own estimates say that within 10 years new technology will be developed that would clean up the extraction process considerably. The oil has been there a long time, another ten or twenty years before we get it out isn't a problem to me, and hell... prices will likely be higher then anyway.

But Niki2, you don't like the situation... get your government to not buy oil from us. Until we have an election and possibly after we are stck with Harper and the conservatives... and they will never change their tune on this.







" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson


Lets party like its 1939

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 10:13 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yup, I agree. If it weren't for our rapacious appetite for oil and oil-based products...but that's no excuse for your cow-towing to it--and making a hefty profit doing so, by the way, which is REALLY what's at the bottom of all such things.

Down here, at least around me, we get this impression of Canada as very forward-thinking, clean, decent, etc., while America is a filthy, environmentally-destitute capitalist system. This says that's a false impression. I got as much right to complain about it as anyone...AND to bring it to people's attention, don't I?

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Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 10:33 AM

FREMDFIRMA



What folks don't realize about the whole issue is that most plastic is based on petroleum, and a shortage of THAT will hit our society faster and harder (and sooner!) than a shortage of motor fuel would.

-F

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 10:57 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Yup, I agree. If it weren't for our rapacious appetite for oil and oil-based products...but that's no excuse for your cow-towing to it--and making a hefty profit doing so, by the way, which is REALLY what's at the bottom of all such things.

Down here, at least around me, we get this impression of Canada as very forward-thinking, clean, decent, etc., while America is a filthy, environmentally-destitute capitalist system. This says that's a false impression. I got as much right to complain about it as anyone...AND to bring it to people's attention, don't I?

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts




part of the problem is our economy was a little too connected to yours... so when yours tanked...

and during times of poor economic performance it is hard to step back and make some of these changes...

On top of that we have had Clinton, Bush, and others up here telling everyone that this project is vital to the security of North America. So much bullshit in my opinion, but there it is.

more reading

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/01/20/60minutes/main1225184.shtml?
tag=contentMain;contentBody


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/07/business/global/07iht-green07.html

another proposal is the construction of a nuclear reactor to replace the use of natural gas in the separation process, this has had many opponents... I'm not sure where it is at


" I got as much right to complain about it as anyone...AND to bring it to people's attention, don't I? "

yes you do, but to make your complaint effective I would suggest Obama would be the one to take action...

http://www.nationalpost.com/most_popular/story.html?id=610810

He started that way, and then has been quiet on that front now for some time... perhaps it is economic unfeasible for the US not to buy that oil at the moment.



" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson


Lets party like its 1939

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 10:58 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


and politicians... they emit more gas than normal people...

I think we should just kill them and reorganize...

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:17 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

What folks don't realize about the whole issue is that most plastic is based on petroleum, and a shortage of THAT will hit our society faster and harder (and sooner!) than a shortage of motor fuel would.
Y'know, Frem...I made that same argument recently and was told that there are other processes for making plastic these days that are used and will be used more when petroleum isn't available. Dunno if that's true or not, have to look it up.

Also, petroleum is in our lives in SO many ways, we'll be in a real mess when it runs out!!!

Sigh...okay, Gino, all good points, unfortunately. But still, in my opinion, they're "reasons" not "excuses". As to Obama, again I say it's only been nine months, that may not be the highest thing on his list of priorities at the moment. I'll certainly make my voice heard on it, anyway.

Quote:

and politicians... they emit more gas than normal people...I think we should just kill them and reorganize...
Yes, indeedee, Wulf, there's another intelligent, intellectual comment pertaining to the subject at hand.


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Thursday, October 8, 2009 3:34 PM

DREAMTROVE


There is no oil shortage. American politicians talk about foreign oil because they are in the hands of foreign oil, which wants the price high.

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 6:08 PM

GINOBIFFARONI




" I don't believe in hypothetical situations - it's kinda like lying to your brain "

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson


Lets party like its 1939

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Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:12 PM

SOCKPUPPET


Oil is just a commodity. The price goes up and down like any other, the only difference is that oil has a really good publicity agent.

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Sunday, October 11, 2009 12:57 AM

MEATPUPPET42


Sad that you would use this to point your finger and say there is the bad guy. The USA is a much bigger polluter than most countries in the world. BTW the oceans have been getting colder for the past few years explain global warming to me.

That's why I don't kiss them on the mouth.

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Sunday, October 11, 2009 7:48 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

How long will it take to extract all the oil out of the oilsands?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Sunday, October 11, 2009 9:59 AM

DREAMTROVE


Canada is home to a large portion of the Taiga forest, one of the world's largest ecosystems. The Taiga consumes more co2 each year by itself that all human efforts combined can create.

There is no oil crisis, but before attacking the oil sands, I'd want an environmental impact statement on that. Canada is sitting on far more oil than the middle east, but the local US puppet govt. just doesn't want to collect it, because then their controllers wouldn't make money.

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Sunday, October 11, 2009 11:24 AM

MEATPUPPET42


I have been told there is more than all of saudi Arabia. But it's trapped in sand and expensive to remove. Technology is not there yet.
Also have been told it is dirty process but only 10% more than conventional method.


I love it, it's like wiping your ass with silk

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