REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Zero Tolerance vs Sane Society.

POSTED BY: FREMDFIRMA
UPDATED: Friday, October 16, 2009 13:43
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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 1:42 PM

FREMDFIRMA



This one especially for Rue and Siggy, since it's finally some clue that folks are beginning to "get it" and comprehend the insanity behind the insanity.

The Stupidity of "Zero-Tolerance": 6-Year-Old Suspended For Bringing Food Utensil to School
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/143213/the_stupidity_of_%22zero-tol
erance%22:_6-year-old_suspended_for_bringing_food_utensil_to_school


Selected Bits...

Ames argues -- quite convincingly -- that schoolyard and office massacres are modern-day slave rebellions. The overly oppressive and exploitive nature of hyper-Capitalism, the neutering of unions, and the overall degradation of employees, neighborhoods, communities, and society have resulted in a culture of fear and violence.

The opposite approach, which is the current "solution" of treating workers and students like suspects, is an excellent way to breed more paranoia, fear, and violence. If kids weren't ready to snap before, a day of bag inspections, metal detector, and locker searches guarantees they’ll at least hate their schools if not harbor fantasies of putting down their oppressors.

Schools are not boot camps, and children need to be shown compassion and love, or they will never offer their fellow citizens similar kindness when they develop into fully formed humans. If you show children nothing but cruelty, and intolerance, then they repeat that behavior and grow up to become Republicans.

Allison here ABSOLUTELY nails it dead square, although I myself am leery of assigning particular political bents to behavior rampant in all of them.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 1:56 PM

BYTEMITE


Ooh, that is nice, and all too true. No comments myself on the Republican thing, but nail on the head everywhere else.

But something else we need to look out for in schools is how school structure perpetuates hierarchies. Often these are pre-existing and exist through the negligence and even endorsement of administrators, but sometimes these are completely student generated.

Every person in a school is going to have a group that they relate more to, interests wise. Cliques are inevitable. But where it gets stupid is allowing hostility between cliques to fester.

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 2:09 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Or deliberately encouraging it in order to keep the occupied fighting each other, as an excuse to demand more budget money for "security" and hiring goons to become the "powers that be" factions gang.

I could go on for WEEKS about it - especially as one of the second chance schools I went to, the Administrator was in fact a former prison warden and saw very little difference in her new assignment.

The Sudbury schools model is something we desperately need to be adapting if we want real change on this front.

-F

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Wednesday, October 14, 2009 11:47 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Hmm, todays piece by Jim Davies goes further along these lines, and adds another dimension to it which makes a whole lot of sense.

Human Nature
http://www.strike-the-root.com/92/davies/davies4.html

"If humans really were evil--if some variation of "original sin" is a fact of our existence, then I would have to suggest that we on STR are wasting our time, dreaming impossible dreams. We might just as well, being unable to beat 'em, join 'em. Let's eat, drink, make merry, for tomorrow we'll certainly die; in fact on that assumption (that humans are evil at root) there is hardly a shred of hope that the race will outlive the Century, given the very large array of WMDs that already exists and which is fast proliferating. I do not say any government will deliberately use them, for its leaders would die along with everyone else - but I do say their use by accident or by suicidal religious fanatics - of whom we hear more every day - is inevitable. For as long as governments continue to exist.

That horrid outcome is of course no evidence at all that the assumption is wrong. It simply says that if it's right, doom is unavoidable and we should stop pretending otherwise.

That too is why it matters, for us to understand human nature.

My view is that the assumption is dead wrong; that humans are basically good, not evil, and that humans do evil things only when they acquire power over other people. That's true on an individual level, and true much more commonly at every level of government, which is in its essential nature a violent organization, based entirely on the false premise that it has some right to exist and govern, or to exercise power over other humans.


Yep, give em a badge and a gun, a robe and gavel, or an office and a title - and sure as day follows dawn, it comes to evil eventually.

So why not eliminate the things that lead to it ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:44 AM

RIVERLOVE


There's another case now in NY involving a 16 year old....he's an Honors student and an Eagle Scout. He had a Scout knife locked inside a utility case locked inside a car. Somehow "they" found it and have now suspended him. How is a knife that is locked up in a car any of their gorram business? Isn't the gorram tire iron and jack more a dangerous weapon than a 2" pen knife? Shit, you could extend that to the cigarette lighter or even the ashtray itself, as either could be used as a weapon. How would they have even known to look for the Scout knife? And why would the car owner allow for search & seizure with no probable cause? These instances are beyond insanity; it is zero-tolerance fascist bullshit, which means that "professionals", aka teachers, don't have to think, and don't have to make judgement calls. That's a great lesson to teach our kids.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 5:35 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


This is the thrashing around of a society in the throes of enforcing dead paradigms. Insanity abounds.

Not sure how this relates specifically to me (or Rue). I don't think I've ever advocated punitive measures. Or zero tolerance.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 5:47 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


It's funny- I carried a pocket knife to my small town high school every day, about 40 years ago, without even a second thought. It was a TOOL- I used it to cut rope, tape, cloth, to whittle wooden bits, to cut up my lunch fruit, fix my car. Never even considered stabbing or cutting a person with it. Now I wouldn't last one day before I'd be arrested...

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 6:16 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Not sure how it relates to me either, as the only thing I've ever said was that society (that's US, as a group) has the right to make the 'rules' (language, technology, economy, customs, paradigms, laws) by which we all relate. And that ALL societies do that, even the most primitive, even those without laws and law enforcement.


And that it follows that we should be consciously and intelligently selecting the rules we wish to live under (Caral anyone ? ), instead of passing off doing our thinking about those rules with silly slogans like 'survival of the fittest', 'social Darwinism', 'capitalism is freedom' and the like.

"... in fact on that assumption (that humans are evil at root) there is hardly a shred of hope that the race will outlive the Century, given the very large array of WMDs that already exists and which is fast proliferating."

Well, MOST humans (99%) are perfectly fine just getting along, and only wish to live in peace, making their living and being with family and friends.

But then there are the leader-authoritarians who create systems of social, economic and religious power specifically in order to rule. It is they who make the choices that will drive us and the planet into oblivion --- and we, by just going along with the systems they create, will power that demise. Oddly enough, not by being evil, but by being agreeable. By letting THEM create our systems and make our choices, instead of us doing it ourselves - consciously and intelligently would be best.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 6:21 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Some people can do more damage with a ball-point pen than a Swiss Army knife...

Whats next? Finger paint?

Sheesh...

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 6:39 AM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Some people can do more damage with a ball-point pen than a Swiss Army knife...

Whats next? Finger paint?

Sheesh...


A few years ago I saw a prison interview with serial killer John Wayne Gacy. You may recall that his crimes were particularly grisly and demonic. Gacy told the interviewer that he could easily kill him and 2 others in the room with just the pencil he was using to take notes. That stopped the interviewer dead in his tracks, and sent a sober chill down all their spines.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:12 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Some people can do more damage with a ball-point pen than a Swiss Army knife...

Whats next? Finger paint?

Sheesh...


A few years ago I saw a prison interview with serial killer John Wayne Gacy. You may recall that his crimes were particularly grisly and demonic. Gacy told the interviewer that he could easily kill him and 2 others in the room with just the pencil he was using to take notes. That stopped the interviewer dead in his tracks, and sent a sober chill down all their spines.




Hello,

I'd make a terrible interviewer, and I'd probably get myself stabbed with a pencil.

--Anthony


"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:16 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
It's funny- I carried a pocket knife to my small town high school every day, about 40 years ago, without even a second thought. It was a TOOL- I used it to cut rope, tape, cloth, to whittle wooden bits, to cut up my lunch fruit, fix my car. Never even considered stabbing or cutting a person with it. Now I wouldn't last one day before I'd be arrested...



Hello,

My father tells me that when he went to school, lots of high school kids drove pickups with shotgun racks on them onto school grounds, and they'd frequently go out after school and on weekends to target practice with rifles out in the Everglades.

Of course, we all well remember the grisly mass murders and slaughters that High Schoolers committed back then.

There is definitely something wrong with our society and the way that we raise our young. And whatever it is, it's worse than it used to be.

--Anthony


"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:20 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I learned from a commando how kill a person with a piece of folded newspaper.

I suppose that's a good excuse for not turning in your term paper?

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:34 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Oh, sorry - reason I flagged it for y'alls attention is that it's one of the things we DO mutually agree on, that this societys current structures and paradigms are psychologically destructive and badly in need of change to encourage, rather than squish out, human empathy.

Seems like every time I look at a public school these days, I see the stanford prison experiment all over again - and doing the same thing over and over expecting different results is most certainly qualified insanity, one we've taken to a national level.

In order to have a sane society, we first must have sane people - and structures counterproductive to this needs be changed or replaced, yanno ?

That's also why I am checkin out and pushing forth the Sudbury School model, it seems far more effective and humane than running the place like a prison of kennel.

Wouldn't mind your thoughts on the matter, neither.

-F

ETA: Re: Weapons...

One of the very best things I ever learned from my sensai was that the most effective "weapon" in the universe resides between your ears, so long as you use it for something other than headbangin, heh.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:52 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:


There is definitely something wrong with our society and the way that we raise our young. And whatever it is, it's worse than it used to be.

--Anthony




I think there's two problems: the first is that the world is more stressful and confusing and frustrating than it was forty years ago. The second is that parents are too clueless and trusting, while at the same time, too protective. A combination of too much stress, and not learning how to manage the stress or create solutions to the problems causing the stress. I think many of today's generation, who I count myself among, have become reliant on other people solving their problems for them.

I'm currently trying to learn how to solve my own problems. It's slow going.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 9:08 AM

BYTEMITE


Thinking about this some more, wasn't columbine a result of bullying, and that college shooting a couple years ago a result of some guy being rejected by a girl?

People can be stressors. Encouraging empathy and interpersonal skills can help.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 9:13 AM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

Originally posted by Riverlove:
Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Some people can do more damage with a ball-point pen than a Swiss Army knife...

Whats next? Finger paint?

Sheesh...


A few years ago I saw a prison interview with serial killer John Wayne Gacy. You may recall that his crimes were particularly grisly and demonic. Gacy told the interviewer that he could easily kill him and 2 others in the room with just the pencil he was using to take notes. That stopped the interviewer dead in his tracks, and sent a sober chill down all their spines.




Hello,

I'd make a terrible interviewer, and I'd probably get myself stabbed with a pencil.

--Anthony


"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner


Oh I'm sure you'd make a fine interviewer Anthony. Just stay away from maniacs like Gacy. On another subject...a question pertaining to your signature quote : Does survival ever trump humanity? Thank you.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 9:30 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello River,

I'm sure individuals can easily reach the point where survival does trump humanity. However, that must never be the policy of any group or any society. Groups must not be allowed to function with the same compromised morals as desperate, terrified individuals. Once inhumane practices become official policy, then anything can be justified. "Torture? Rape? Mass murder? Well, why not? It's either us or them..."

Warfare is as close as any society should approach towards disregarding humanity in favor of survival. Even then, the war should be approached with the oxymoronic attitude of conducting warfare humanely. That means killing only those you have to, only targeting combatants, and treating the enemy with respect once they have been defeated.

I initially adopted my signature quote upon learning that we were torturing prisoners in Saddam's old torture facility. I felt we were, as a nation, selling our Humanity for a perceived Purchase of Liberty. And in that, we were making a bad, bad deal. I think it generally holds true... If you sell your humanity to buy liberty, then you end up with neither.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:36 AM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello River,

I'm sure individuals can easily reach the point where survival does trump humanity. However, that must never be the policy of any group or any society. Groups must not be allowed to function with the same compromised morals as desperate, terrified individuals. Once inhumane practices become official policy, then anything can be justified. "Torture? Rape? Mass murder? Well, why not? It's either us or them..."

Warfare is as close as any society should approach towards disregarding humanity in favor of survival. Even then, the war should be approached with the oxymoronic attitude of conducting warfare humanely. That means killing only those you have to, only targeting combatants, and treating the enemy with respect once they have been defeated.

I initially adopted my signature quote upon learning that we were torturing prisoners in Saddam's old torture facility. I felt we were, as a nation, selling our Humanity for a perceived Purchase of Liberty. And in that, we were making a bad, bad deal. I think it generally holds true... If you sell your humanity to buy liberty, then you end up with neither.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner


I appreciate your response. You make a strong case that organized terrorism can never be justified by groups that believe they've been wronged by the world. But individuals targeted for death and systemic oppression can do almost anything to survive. Is that the gist of it?

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:50 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello River,

Individuals targeted for death and systematic oppression *will* do almost anything to survive. Once you narrow focus to desperate, terrified individuals, then rules, laws, and morality start to become moot. 'People' might be corralled and directed by society's laws, group honor, and peer pressure... but a 'Person' might do anything, and without much regard to what's right or wrong when their very next breath is on the line.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:50 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:


Of course, we all well remember the grisly mass murders and slaughters that High Schoolers committed back then.

There is definitely something wrong with our society and the way that we raise our young. And whatever it is, it's worse than it used to be.



I would point out that the highest body count for a school massacre happened in 1927.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 11:01 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I'm not sure that a bombing by a (disturbed?) adult in protest of taxes that he perceived to have ruined his life is in the same category as kids gunning down other kids and teachers wholesale. 'Suicide bomber blows up school in tax protest' doesn't quite have the same connotation as 'kid shoots all his classmates and teachers.'

--Anthony


"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:52 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I'm not sure that a bombing by a (disturbed?) adult in protest of taxes that he perceived to have ruined his life is in the same category as kids gunning down other kids and teachers wholesale. 'Suicide bomber blows up school in tax protest' doesn't quite have the same connotation as 'kid shoots all his classmates and teachers.'



Even if the motive and outcome is exactly the same? He wanted to hurt people by hurting their children. He succeeded. I'm not sure how that lessens the impact of his deeds. That seems awfully close to dismissing McVeigh's act as unsuccessful because it was a "protest" of big government.

Does the motive lessen the tragedy?

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:55 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


My father tells me that when he went to school, lots of high school kids drove pickups with shotgun racks on them onto school grounds, and they'd frequently go out after school and on weekends to target practice with rifles out in the Everglades.




Yup. It was that way when I went to high school. Hell, damn near EVERY pickup had a gun rack, and usually a shotgun AND a deer rifle stowed in them. Never heard of a shooting in that school, and that was a school with over 1400 students.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 1:12 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I'm not convinced by Ames arguments, but then I haven't read his book.

That being said - the incident described sounds utterly ridiculous - what a way to educate a 6 year old, who'd be probably be struggling to find his lunch utensil in a bag let alone use it for a heinous act. Stupid stuff.

I don't think you can blame workplace or school culture for the mass shootings that happen, unless you are intend to look deeper at the culture that might foster people developing sociopathic tendencies that lead them to kill indiscriminately.

My understanding is that people who murder others in such a manner (I'll leave aside the so called crimes of passion) or who kill for pleasure, are not just pissed off with society, or feeling lonely or trapped. Many, many people fee that way but don't conduct themselves in that manner. People who do such things have had some sort of childhood developmental experience that has means that their neurons don't fire properly. Basically, they lack empathy for others, have poor impulse control and experience some sort of ongoing inner rage that is not related to their current circumstances. Some of the childhood experiences might typically have caused this psychological damage might include sexual or physical abuse, neglect, not bonding with a primary carer because they live in foster homes or orphanages, or have been moved from one carer to another. It might also include brain trauma as a result of a difficult birth or accident. Not all people who experience these difficulties within the first few years of their life will go on to murder, because there are other factors - including genetic at play.

It can be true that some societies produce more sociopaths than others. Societies where there has been the massive disruption of war is one example - especially if casualties are large and there are lots of orphaned children. Other societal causes might include things like weak family and community structures, absence of some form of welfare net, limited access to pre and post natal care and other health services, both parents having to work long hours and children being in care long hours, especially substandard care.

Basically it's about how well parents parent -especially in the early years. Does society structures support parents in their good nurturing of children, or does it hinder them? In that way, workplaces can impact upon people's behaviour, but it's in an indirect rather than direct way.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 1:29 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

It can be true that some societies produce more sociopaths than others.
And we happen to be one of them. All you have to do is look at our crime rate versus Europe to figure that out.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 1:43 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


It would be hard to determine percentage wise which places have more sociopaths that others. I don't know of any research on this. I'm not sure you could specifically separate North America from other Western nations, altoughI know you have a lot more gun murders and larger prison populations - but some of that latter is at least to do with your sentencing. I think in terms of

Sociopathy doesn't always result in crime, either. Stuff I've read suggests that sociopaths are very good at climbing to the top of corporate ladders.


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Thursday, October 15, 2009 2:06 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:



Even if the motive and outcome is exactly the same? He wanted to hurt people by hurting their children. He succeeded. I'm not sure how that lessens the impact of his deeds. That seems awfully close to dismissing McVeigh's act as unsuccessful because it was a "protest" of big government.

Does the motive lessen the tragedy?

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams









Hello Mike,

I didn't mean to reject the comparison because it didn't match a scale of tragedy. Rather, it wasn't violence committed by youths, which is the focus of my discussion here. I would consider 9/11 to be equally irrelevant to child violence, and our society's distrust of children to the point where they can't bring eating utensils to school (or an asprin, for that matter.)

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 2:39 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Mike,

I didn't mean to reject the comparison because it didn't match a scale of tragedy. Rather, it wasn't violence committed by youths, which is the focus of my discussion here. I would consider 9/11 to be equally irrelevant to child violence, and our society's distrust of children to the point where they can't bring eating utensils to school (or an asprin, for that matter.)

--Anthony



Ah - I see. I think I misunderstood where you were headed. Sorry 'bout that.

Carry on.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:14 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

It would be hard to determine percentage wise which places have more sociopaths that others. I don't know of any research on this.

I got thirty some years of empirical stuff on it, and Andrew Vachss and Dr. Bruce Perry have far more legal and technical research on the matter.

Part of the problem is that by accident or design, our current structure is almost tailor made to produce at the very least partial or compensated sociopaths, and it churns them out at a rate that is appalling.

One factor to this is how the social structure we "teach" in schools is so counter to the basic nature of humans that have had ANY primary caregiver attachment at all, that the contrary messages from their own instincts and what they're being taught about how to function and achieve in our society impact each other and tend to cause psychological aberration - and often as not cause we don't wanna ADMIT that, we find other causes to blame, medicate them, punish them, and in extremis, till recently, sent them to the youth equivalent of concentration camps, therefore out-selecting and effectively weeding out the most humane amongst us.

Seriously, when you got a kid who's instincts say love and trust, and who's being taught hate and betray - it's GOING to cause some mental static.

There's also that our child-rearing practices on a black pedagogy or authoritarian model are a contributor to the problem.
(See Also: Alice Miller)

But mostly it is that a childs first social environment here in the US is very psychologically destructive in a way that tends to cause sociopathy as a direct result, whether it's intentional or not.

There's TONS of research and fieldwork out there related to this, it's just that no one seems to care because children have a lower social and legal status here than housepets - a lack of personal respect that also impacts them negatively from puberty to adulthood, and leaves a taste for vengance in many cases of individuals already suffering aberration, and thus, someone to "blame" for their troubles.

Like I said, I could go on for weeks - but Vachss, Perry and Miller do a far better job of explaining it than I would.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:33 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I meant I wasn't sure if there was research into comparing data in Europe and USA - and if there was how reliable such research would be. There are lots of estimates on prevalence of childhood trauma and estimates of how many people probably have personality disorders such as sociopathy, but I believe they are guestimates at best.

Quote:

One factor to this is how the social structure we "teach" in schools is so counter to the basic nature of humans that have had ANY primary caregiver attachment at all, that the contrary messages from their own instincts and what they're being taught about how to function and achieve in our society impact each other and tend to cause psychological aberration - and often as not cause we don't wanna ADMIT that, we find other causes to blame, medicate them, punish them, and in extremis, till recently, sent them to the youth equivalent of concentration camps, therefore out-selecting and effectively weeding out the most humane amongst us.

Your school system sounds awful, more awful than ours - if that is possible.

However, the evidence is that children who have experienced good enough parenting in their early infancy will cope okay with a variety of less than perfect environments during the rest of their lives. A bad school system may result in someone being poorly educated, but in itself, won't be a breeding ground for sociopaths.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:59 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Magons, Alice Miller would have any relevant data if there is any.

And yes, sadly, it's a combination of factors, the primary of which is a destructive style of child-rearing compounded by a toxic social environment in the primary education system.

And that doesn't even begin to touch on latchkey kids/social ferals* or dysfunctional families, dangerous and drug infested neighborhoods, etc...

But we can focus on the stuff we have the ability to apply immediate change to, even if only on a local scale.

Most my own work relative to it has been torpedo-ing those hellcamps, cause they were the singlemost destructive factor and one I had the ability and knowledge to effect personally in a significant fashion - which is a net positive, but this kind of advocacy needs a healer, not a wrecking ball like me.

* I do find that many of those latchkey kids or social ferals turn out better than earlier or later children who actually had more of an investment/relationship with the parents - although there is some level of basic attachment problems...

But it's a VERY damning indictment of someones parenting/childraising skills when the child most lacking them turns out to be the sanest of the bunch, isn't it ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 5:24 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Magons, Alice Miller would have any relevant data if there is any.


Thanks - I'll have a look.

Quote:

And yes, sadly, it's a combination of factors, the primary of which is a destructive style of child-rearing compounded by a toxic social environment in the primary education system.

I'd probably disagree with your attribution of primary education as being a factor.

Quote:

And that doesn't even begin to touch on latchkey kids/social ferals* or dysfunctional families, dangerous and drug infested neighborhoods, etc...

* I do find that many of those latchkey kids or social ferals turn out better than earlier or later children who actually had more of an investment/relationship with the parents - although there is some level of basic attachment problems...

But it's a VERY damning indictment of someones parenting/childraising skills when the child most lacking them turns out to be the sanest of the bunch, isn't it ?


The evidence is that children who have been poorly parenting are themselves usually poorer parents, unless some sort of significant intervention has taken place.

In a lot of research that I've read, the overwhelming factor for a child's wellbeing during childhood, sadly, is economic. It means that children who are economically deprived also often suffer from some sort of attachment disorder with the resulting pathologies - although they are not exclusive to economically deprived, obviously.

I guess that's why I'm a big believer in welfare nets, health services, adequate funding for public education - a lot of which was established initially to support families with children to be able to live outside poverty.

Quote:

Most my own work relative to it has been torpedo-ing those hellcamps, cause they were the singlemost destructive factor and one I had the ability and knowledge to effect personally in a significant fashion - which is a net positive, but this kind of advocacy needs a healer, not a wrecking ball like me.


I'm trying to imagine what it is you do. Bulldoze schools?

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 6:18 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I'd probably disagree with your attribution of primary education as being a factor.


He didn't say primary education, he said the toxic social ENVIRONMENT fostered in primary education. You live in Australia, right? You don't have bullying and pecking orders in your schools?

Quote:

I'm trying to imagine what it is you do. Bulldoze schools?


He's probably doing a patrol or something right now, but when Frem talks about hellcamps, he's talking about juvenile correction centers. In America, there's a thriving industry for "rehabilitating" troubled teens.

A teen gets caught on a minor infraction, a "tough" judge, who often has been paid off by the camps, sentences the teen to the camp without a fair hearing. Or dumb family members sign the kids up for discipline or religious reasons.

The kid gets trucked out to the middle of nowhere, and the "rehabilitation" part of this whole deal is actually better described as breaking the kid down via abuse. Camp operators stick 'em in a cage and deny them water for a few days so they're too weak to run away. Another common method is forced marches, denial of food... I heard of a religious camp where kids were actually chained to a desk writing bible verses for a slice of bread and a cup of water per day. Think that one might have been to discourage homosexuality, not sure.

Frem would know better, he's done a lot of work getting these places shut down, and he has a lot of relevant links and proof.

EDIT: found one. http://reason.com/archives/2007/06/27/romney-torture-and-teens

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 6:24 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:

I'd probably disagree with your attribution of primary education as being a factor.


He didn't say primary education, he said the toxic social ENVIRONMENT fostered in primary education. You live in Australia, right? You don't have bullying and pecking orders in your schools?


We sure do. But my argument is that you can't attribute sociopathic behaviour to education - rather to a combination of genetic factors and attachment disorders - attachment being what happens in the first three years of life.

Bullying can make you very unhappy - but it won't have you reaching for the guns without their being some sort of underlying, pre exisiting psychological disorder (and the fact you can get your hands on guns - but that is another issue )

Quote:



He's probably doing a patrol or something right now, but when Frem talks about hellcamps, he's talking about juvenile correction centers. In America, there's a thriving industry for "rehabilitating" troubled teens.

A teen gets caught on a minor infraction, a "tough" judge, who often has been paid off by the camps, sentences the teen to the camp without a fair hearing. Or dumb family members sign the kids up for discipline or religious reasons.

The kid gets trucked out to the middle of nowhere, and the "rehabilitation" part of this whole deal is actually better described as breaking the kid down via abuse. Camp operators stick 'em in a cage and deny them water for a few days so they're too weak to run away. Another common method is forced marches, denial of food... I heard of a religious camp where kids were actually chained to a desk writing bible verses for a slice of bread and a cup of water per day. Think that one might have been to discourage homosexuality, not sure.

Frem would know better, he's done a lot of work getting these places shut down, and he has a lot of relevant links and proof.


Oh okay. I thought he was overstating the problems in the education system. yes, I'd totally agree that they were hell camps and systems of abuse.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 6:42 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

But my argument is that you can't attribute sociopathic behaviour to education


And again, no one was saying that. We're only arguing that the current model of schooling system and how children are treated by authority figures / peers in many school environments has a big impact on how they act. People can, and do, snap.

Education is good, the moment you start talking about getting rid of some form of public education is when you really start to see huge gaps between the social classes.

Also, not everyone who commits murder or crime is a sociopath, and not every sociopath is murderous or criminal. I used to have anti-social personality disorder when I was a kid, and a lot of psychiatrists consider that the same thing. Most I ever did was bite people and get into a lot of fights. I came from a decent family, no economic hardship to speak of, had caring parents, and have no genetic pre-disposition to it. Might have been chemical. Probably was ALSO the brutal nature of school and marginalization of "outsiders."

Our system fosters a me-first mentality, which cuts out empathy and makes manufactured sociopaths.

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:29 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:

But my argument is that you can't attribute sociopathic behaviour to education


Also, not everyone who commits murder or crime is a sociopath, and not every sociopath is murderous or criminal.


True - hence my albeit flip remark earlier on about sociopaths being company directors. Many people have sociopathic personality disorders and do not murder or commit crimes - however, they share the similar traits of lack of empathy for others, poor impulse control and that inner rage that I referred to earlier as well.

While its true to say as well that not all criminals and murderers have this disorder,a large majority of people in prison do suffer from it something similar.

Quote:

I used to have anti-social personality disorder when I was a kid, and a lot of psychiatrists consider that the same thing. Most I ever did was bite people and get into a lot of fights. I came from a decent family, no economic hardship to speak of, had caring parents, and have no genetic pre-disposition to it. Might have been chemical. Probably was ALSO the brutal nature of school and marginalization of "outsiders."

Our system fosters a me-first mentality, which cuts out empathy and makes manufactured sociopaths.


Again, I'd have to disagree that the brutal nature of school could cause such a disorder. Attachment disorders are a result of that - attachment issues within the first three years, sometimes coupled with a genetic factors. Attachment disorders can occur in loving, normal families - but there is still some form of break in attachment - sometimes the causes are very mundane and common place, such as illness of a parent. Re the genetics component, - I believe that having a parent with mental health increases the chances, but it also refers to birth temperament. That's why you can get two siblings, but only one may suffer the disorder.

Without any reference to you personally, not knowing your situation and not being qualified to diagnose anyway, I can say that many psychs can be quick off the mark to diagnose children with 'disorders'. In my experience, we over diagnose and pathologise normal childhood responses and bad behaviour and we definitely over medicate our children to a barbaric level.

Some early features of sociopathy are pathological lying, cruelty to animals, inability to create friendship bonds in any environment, lack of bond with primary carer, behaviour that aims to manipulate others.


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Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:00 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Quote:

I'm trying to imagine what it is you do. Bulldoze schools?

Well, hellcamps, yeah, damn close to it - or at least we started off that way.

Within this thread here is a ton of background on it.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=39794

And part of the hassle of getting this issue addressed initially, was that it was SO horrific, no one wanted to believe it!
Big part of any problem with abuses of that scale, easier to toss it aside as the ravings of a loony than actually admit something so horrible exists, right ?
(this is also why predators get off so easy, the jury doesn't *want* to believe the witnesses and will grab at any excuse not to.)

But straight up, it's a fact.
http://www.nospank.net/boot.htm
http://cafety.org/
http://caica.org/
http://isaccorp.org/
http://libertarianrock.com/category/teen-gulag/
http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

While now, today - this fight is on legal grounds, all aboveboard and suchlike...

People risked their freedom, sometimes their very lives, to bring that information into the public arena - I am only but one of them, just notorious cause I started this when I was still a potential victim for them, and "played dirty" from the very start.

Yeah, we have concentration camps for kids, right here in America.

And for a fee, you can have your own child "renditioned" aka "transported" by some unregulated scumbag like alcoholic sex offender Rick Strawn, who is suspect in conduct leading to the death of Valerie Ann Heron, who committed suicide by jumping head first to her death immediately after being transported to Tranquility Bay (now closed, as is Casa by the Sea and a number of others).

Want Your Kid to Disappear?
http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/July-August-2004/feature_labi_julau
g04.msp


I have a particular hate on for these guys and used to be a primary source of medical bills for em when I'd catch em somewhere in private.

And my particlar nemisis was Pathway Family Centers, devolved out of Synanon/The Seed/WWASPS - which as of February 2009, have been economically and effectively destroyed, and as Pathway was the intake and financial pipeline for one of the larger cabals involved in this, without the money, they're gonna strangle, and you can bet I am immensely enjoying watching it happen.

And Miss Byte isn't kidding about rigged trials and sending kids to hell for profit, neither - this is far more common than the pathetically limited investigation so far, and I've been on the ass of PA state officials to expand the scope of it.

Two Pa. Judges Accused of Jailing Hundreds of Kids for Bribes
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,491148,00.html

Congressman George Miller has been downright heroic on this front, as have the people at Protect.org (child protection PAC, our heavy crowbar) and has introduced leglislation, more than once, to regulate this nightmarish industry before more die.
(I keep casualty lists, but we'll skip em for now cause they're very long and quite depressing)
http://www.caica.org/GAO.htm

Current bill is H.R. 911
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-911
http://www.gop.gov/bill/111/1/hr911

Bear in mind the cost of this to Americans would be $1 a YEAR, for four years.
While we're pouring billions down the drain for war and bailouts.

Also, consider the dynamic here - do you think those merry torturers down at Gitmo sprung from a vaccum ?

Often the worst abused wind up clinging to these places cause they do use mindbreaking cult techniques (and have ever since Synanon) which were at several points in time heavily subsidized by the Government under the banner of anti-drug treatment - and eventually wind up working for them, finally getting their satisfaction out of being on the OTHER end of the lash...

I gave them the same hard time I did the transporters.

But everything up to the waterboarding (which they DID do, at High Impact) from rendition to isolation, sleep deprivation, all of it, we been doin that stuff to children here for years - it was only when they started applying it to ADULTS that people got offended...

And yeah, that burns me deep, don't ya know.
I been doin this for decades, and only recently mostly retired from it, leaving it in the hands of my chosen successor, cause yeah, I basically AM a wrecking ball, and while not quite bulldozing the places (unless you including driving over the fence, or knocking the wall down back in Indiana, which was an accident) I've done just about everything but in order to pour sand in their gears and break public support and/or ignorance of them and what they do.

As for education, we can certainly do better on the social structure - as the only other place in america with a similar social dynamic to the public school system is the penal system, and that being a known toxic environment, we oughta do something about it, yes ?

So far I have been looking at the Subury Schools Model as quite superior to what we have here and pushing for it's application.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school

Time for the wrecking ball is over, and currently I'm pulling on all the influence I have to apply some healing to our youth systems now that the cancer of the hellcamps has been effectively put in remission for a while.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:53 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Fascinating story - what I can follow of it. I haven't the time to check all the links, but I get the gist. Well done for your part in bringing it undone.

I saw some of this on tv 'Brat Camp' where they sent British youngsters off to some of those camps - not as bad as you have cited, but still unethical, putanive and really not fair - given that the teenagers is part of a family system, so they should be doing any program alone.

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Friday, October 16, 2009 5:35 AM

FREMDFIRMA



I think, in essence, it can be boiled down to the outright stupidity of the control model.

When something defies your will, use direct force to make it obey - as resistance to your will escalates, esclate the force accordingly till something breaks.

This seems to be the primary American paradigm of problem solving, as is as asinine when applied to children as it is when applied to a mechanical problem.

Although applying it to children can be verified as far back as 1748, in Versuch von der Erziehung und Unterweisung der Kinder - (translation) ((""These first years have, among other things, the advantage that one can use force and compulsion. With age children forget everything they encountered in their early childhood. Thus if one can take away children's will, they will not remember afterward that they had had a will."))

And for every bit as long there have been those who stood against it, Jordan Riak can provide many resources on that front, but imma share a selected quote with you about it.

To me the worst thing seems to be for a school principally to work with methods of fear, force and artificial authority. Such treatment destroys the sound sentiments, the sincerity and self-confidence of the pupil. It produces the submissive subject. . . It is comparatively simple to keep the school free from this worst of all evils. Give into the power of the teacher the fewest possible coercive measures, so that the only source of the pupil's respect for the teacher is the human and intellectual qualities of the latter. . . .

The most important motive for work in the school and in life is the pleasure in work, pleasure in its result and the knowledge of the value of the result to the community. In the awakening and strengthening of these psychological forces in the young person, I see the most important task given by the school. Such a psychological foundation alone leads to a joyous desire for the highest possessions of humanity: knowledge and artistlike workmanship.

The awakening of these productive psychological powers is certainly less easy than the practice of force or the awakening of personal ambition but is the more valuable for it. The point is to develop the childlike inclination for play and the childlike desire for recognition and to guide the child over to important fields for society; it is that education which in the main is founded upon the desire for successful activity and acknowledgement. If the school succeeds in working successfully from such points of view, it will be highly honored by the rising generation and the tasks given by the school will be submitted to as a sort of gift. I have known children who preferred schooltime to vacation."


That was Albert Einstein,
From Out of My Later Years published back in 1950.

The current vector of the push behind that force-resistance-more force model as applied to child rearing is nutburgers like James Dobson, who cloaks it in religiousity and excuses every bit as lame as the excuses for mistreating ones wife, just another serving of the same old candy coated poison pill.

A more chilling example, was Gary Ezzo, who suggested the application of this model to infants, a practice with proven links to "failure to thrive" and several deaths.

It's not that Americans are stupid, so much as they have often been conditioned from the very start of memory to think and act in such a way as to unknowningly perpetuate and continue the abuse-cycles of their own upbringing, and this colors their relationships with others both on an individual, and larger social, scale.

You can see it in our idiotic foreign policies, which are simply the same thing writ large, on a global scale, and in our "war on (some) drugs" writ on a national one, but the root factor is that they are conditioned to accept the force-resistance-more force model practically from the cradle and because of that conditioning it becomes instinctual, reflexive, the past of least resistance they will always return to when they run out of other options or cannot think of any.

The solution, of course, is equally simple - not pounding it into em in the first place - but remember, the individuals I *MUST* convince of this, the ones in charge of policy and influential in social trending, are the very ones unwittingly helping perpetuate it because by blind obedience to that model, they are the most successful in our society.

For our own survival, this MUST change, or sooner or later we'll annihilate ourselves.

Force and Fear got no place in childrearing, nor education, and you know what ?
They shouldn't ought to have one in foreign policy, neither.

Others can hack the branches all they want, but playing whack a mole with social symptoms is as foolish as taking cough syrup for tuberculosis - me, I wanna get to the root cause and do something about it, you see ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, October 16, 2009 5:57 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Re: Attachment Disorder.

You know, while this is a dark picture, there ARE folk who overcome or even help such as they can within these systems.

I don't "connect" with other humans so well, never have, but one teacher I had, Ms Chaffinch, deserves special mention for a unique but effective mitigation and partial solution to those issues.

She knew I did not connect to other humans, but also somehow noticed my ability to attach and bond with animals was still present and in fact much stronger than normal - so she got a class pet, a rather enormous lop-eared bunny, and put me in charge of it's care, hoping my attachment to the critter would "bleed over" on my classmates and resolve some of the problems.

She was absolutely right - and I've used that method a time or two myself working with badly damaged and traumatized individuals.

Also learned that lop-ear bunnys are pretty smart, by the end of semester that critter would do all the usual doggy tricks, sit up, beg, roll over, play dead, etc - as well as use a litterbox instead of messy newspaper (that being my idea, since Fluffybunny was obviously smart enough).

I still don't much care for humans, but I got a way with animals that often borders on downright eerie.

Were it not for the decent folk I met within the system, like Ms. Chaffinch, Ms. Dorsey (who used to call me "Doctor" cause she caught me out hiding a brilliant mind under that hoodlum facade) and a couple of others - I'd not think it possible to redeem the system, but so long as there's even a handful of teachers who do what they do for the same reasons I do what I do - that possibility exists, and we'd be remiss in our duty as human beings to not explore it.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, October 16, 2009 6:54 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Ok, Dexter.


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Friday, October 16, 2009 8:19 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"He proposes that modern workplace and school violence emerged soon after Reaganomics began in the 1980s when the wealth divide widened, and Reagan did everything in his power to support his friends, the CEOs of corporations, while screwing the workers. The result is a corporate culture where Americans work harder for longer hours for less. They have no job security, are buried in debt, and occasionally one of them snaps and shoots their co-workers."

I think that's a fair assessment. The link between economic insecurity and violence is strong. Though my sense is that it's not about the select individual who snaps, it's endemic to a system which treats people as raw material. Sooner or later that becomes the mass ethic.

Look at the neighbor to the north. Its economy and population are a shadow of the US's, but the murder rate is far lower, despite an adequate supply of guns. The reason is that people feel secure and to a large extent in control of their society. And that is due to the government looking out for the people who vote for them. And a people who vote for a government that produces measurable good rather than slogans like freedom ! and capitalism ! like in the constitution !

Then look at the neighbor to the south, where poverty and violence as well as other crimes are prevalent. That country has been traditionally ruled by the oligarchy FOR the oligarchy, and people are mere fodder for the machine. And they know it.

Then there's the middle neighbor. It has a system where people are put in an arena where there is not quite enough to go around - and then forced to compete. The ruling structure is not quite so obvious as the neighbor to the south - it is after all a system of the hidden wealthy and not a historical nobility, and with the ameliorating effects of having been the number one economy for a few decades (about to end soon - welcome to the third world, folks !). But despite the slogans - number one country in the world ! - more people are feeling the threat to their survival as they lose their health and insurance, and their jobs and homes, and often, eventually, their families.

In a mirror version of the old saying: what comes around - goes around. And that's what we're seeing going around.


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, October 16, 2009 11:11 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Didn't read all the posts, but here's my take: I saw the story, too, and was as disgusted as I always am at these over-reactive idiocies.

But I don't put it on "society" per se. I put it more on the litigiousness of our current society. If the school didn't do anything, and the kid somehow stabbed another kid, don'tcha think the parents of the stabbed kid would be out for blood (and bucks)?

Schools are over-paranoid about such things these days and ever since Columbine and some other examples, have become extremely paranoid, far beyond logic or common sense. It needs to be dealt with; there needs to be some middle ground between fearing a kid will come in with an AK-47 and suspending kids for a Boy Scout tool.

Add those to the nationwide paranoia and fear ever since 9/11 (and beyond), and it's ripe for over-reaction.

We're pretty pathetic these days; but the reasons are easy to see, just the lack of common sense is ridiculous to observe.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Friday, October 16, 2009 11:18 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg





Conan's Father: Fire and wind come from the sky, from the gods of the sky. But Crom is your god, Crom and he lives in the earth. Once, giants lived in the Earth, Conan. And in the darkness of chaos, they fooled Crom, and they took from him the enigma of steel. Crom was angered. And the Earth shook. Fire and wind struck down these giants, and they threw their bodies into the waters, but in their rage, the gods forgot the secret of steel and left it on the battlefield. We who found it are just men. Not gods. Not giants. Just men. The secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, Conan. You must learn its discipline. For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts.
[Points to sword]
Conan's Father: This you can trust.

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Friday, October 16, 2009 11:36 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


To quote Wiki:

"Only after his father's sword is broken does Conan realize the true answer to the riddle: the true thing that is forged and unbreakable is the will. Steel breaks, Flesh grows weak, but will is unbreakable."

Amen.

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Friday, October 16, 2009 11:41 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Breaking people is pretty routine business.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, October 16, 2009 11:43 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Flesh grows weak.

But the will of the strong, does not die.

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Friday, October 16, 2009 11:47 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Oh, so now we're only talking about the STRONG ! I guess no on else counts, in your mind. Ehh ... all the sheeple. Not even human.

As for the strong, the mind goes potty, eventually.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, October 16, 2009 11:49 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"I guess no on else counts, in your mind."

Funny.

Stephen Hawking is physically weak, but his mind and will are STRONG.

So yeah.

The STRONG count.

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Salon: NBC's Ronna blunder: A failed attempt to appeal to MAGA voters — except they hate her too
Thu, March 28, 2024 07:04 - 1 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Thu, March 28, 2024 05:27 - 6154 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Thu, March 28, 2024 02:07 - 3408 posts
Russian losses in Ukraine
Wed, March 27, 2024 23:21 - 987 posts
human actions, global climate change, global human solutions
Wed, March 27, 2024 15:03 - 824 posts
NBC News: Behind the scenes, Biden has grown angry and anxious about re-election effort
Wed, March 27, 2024 14:58 - 2 posts
BUILD BACK BETTER!
Wed, March 27, 2024 14:45 - 5 posts
RFK Jr. Destroys His Candidacy With VP Pick?
Wed, March 27, 2024 11:59 - 16 posts
Russia says 60 dead, 145 injured in concert hall raid; Islamic State group claims responsibility
Wed, March 27, 2024 10:57 - 49 posts
Ha. Haha! HAHA! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!
Tue, March 26, 2024 21:26 - 1 posts
You can't take the sky from me, a tribute to Firefly
Tue, March 26, 2024 16:26 - 293 posts

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