REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The Beast of Kandahar

POSTED BY: PIRATENEWS
UPDATED: Monday, December 14, 2009 14:35
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Tuesday, December 8, 2009 10:27 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

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Wednesday, December 9, 2009 10:47 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Out of the 'Black' , into the Blue...Mini-B2 coming soon , to a 'theater' near You...

Apt , the comparison to the Horten 9...

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Wednesday, December 9, 2009 2:04 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Or the Northrop NM-1, which predated the Horten Ho-229 shown above. (That particular "Horten" is actually a replica built by Northrop after the war, by the way)

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Wednesday, December 9, 2009 2:11 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by out2theblack:

Out of the 'Black' , into the Blue...Mini-B2 coming soon , to a 'theater' near You...



By theater you mean USA:

www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5B708I20091208

At $13+million each, how many new or used Cessna 150s could that purchase?

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Wednesday, December 9, 2009 2:32 PM

DREAMTROVE


I'm outclassed

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Wednesday, December 9, 2009 3:39 PM

FREMDFIRMA



At least it's not a refit of the Me-163 Komet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_163

Oh, get this, heard it from a procurement specialist earlier when discussing some Bell 206's someone might be needing - apparently one of the reasons the F-22 was shitcanned was that halfway through the freakin trials, they discovered the freakin thing wasn't waterproof.

D'oh!

Power is kickin in and out up here due to high winds, so I gotta pop the breakers to protect my equipment, seeya.

-F

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Wednesday, December 9, 2009 3:54 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I'm outclassed



Bah - you are nothing BUT class, DT!

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Wednesday, December 9, 2009 3:56 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

At least it's not a refit of the Me-163 Komet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_163

Oh, get this, heard it from a procurement specialist earlier when discussing some Bell 206's someone might be needing - apparently one of the reasons the F-22 was shitcanned was that halfway through the freakin trials, they discovered the freakin thing wasn't waterproof.

D'oh!

Power is kickin in and out up here due to high winds, so I gotta pop the breakers to protect my equipment, seeya.

-F



Oh yeah - that's a problem they're running into with ALL the "stealth" aircraft, apparently. Seems the radar-absorbent composites really don't like to get wet. A good thing to build into something that's supposed to fly with the clouds, eh?

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 7:50 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by piratenews:






'...Reimar and Walter Horten tested their first piloted nurflugel (only-wing) sailplane in 1933, while they were still in their teens. After further experiments, including a motorized sailplane, they built a twin-engined pusher that looked remarkably like the N-1M Flying Wing Jack Northrop would fly in 1940. Alas, this Ho 5 crashed on its first flight in 1937, breaking the aircraft, Reimar's jaw, and one of Walter's teeth. The problem was that bugbear of all-wing aircraft: the center of gravity was too far back.

The Hortens moved the engines forward and lengthened the propeller shafts, so that their all-wing looked even more like the N-1M. Their Ho 5-B flew successfully in 1938--two years before Northrop's--but was then allowed to languish under the demands of war production. (One of Reimar's projects after the war began was an all-wing transport glider for the invasion of Britain.) Not until August 1941 was Reimar asked to explore the potential of the nurflugel as a fighting aircraft, and even then his work was largely clandestine, in an authorized operation arranged by his brother in the Luftwaffe.

In 1942 Reimar built an unpowered prototype with a 61-foot span and the designation Ho 9. After some difficulty the airframe was mated with two Junkers Jumo turbojets of the sort developed for the Messerschmitt Me 262. The turbojet was apparently flown successfully in December 1944, and it eventually achieved a speed of nearly 500 mph (800 km/h). After about two hours of flying time, it was destroyed in a February 1945 crash that killed its test pilot.

Its potential was obvious, however, and the Gotha company promptly readied the turbojet for production as a fighter-bomber with the Air Ministry designation Ho 299. (Because Gotha built it, the turbojet is also called the Go 229.) Supposedly it would fly at 997 km/h (623 mph), which if true meant that it was significantly faster than the Me 262--let alone the Flying Wings that Northrop was building. Fortunately for the Allies, the Gotha factory and the Ho 299 prototype--the world's first all-wing turbojet--were captured by U.S. forces in April 1945.

Like today's B-2 Stealth bomber (and unlike Jack Northrop's designs), the Go-229 had a comparatively slender airfoil, with the crew and engines housed in dorsal humps, and its jet exhaust was vented onto the top surface of the wing. The first feature made it faster than the stubby Northrop designs; the second made it even harder to detect, as did the fact that wood was extensively used in its construction.'

http://www.warbirdforum.com/horten.htm



Horten 9 V1 prototype

'...In the early 1930s, the Horten brothers had become interested in the flying wing design as a method of improving the performance of gliders. The German government was funding glider clubs at the time because production of military aircraft was forbidden by the Treaty of Versailles after World War I. The flying wing layout removes any "unneeded" surfaces and, in theory at least, leads to the lowest possible drag. A wing-only configuration allows for a similarly performing glider with wings that are shorter and thus sturdier, and without the added drag of the fuselage. The result was the Horten H.IV.

In 1943, Reichsmarschall Göring issued a request for design proposals to produce a bomber that was capable of carrying a 1,000 kg (2,200 lb) load over 1,000 km (620 mi) at 1,000 km/h (620 mph); the so called 3 X 1000 project. Conventional German bombers could reach Allied command centers in Great Britain, but were suffering devastating losses from Allied fighters. At the time there was simply no way to meet these goals — the new Junkers Jumo 004B turbojets could give the required speed, but had excessive fuel consumption.

The Hortens deduced that the low-drag flying wing design could meet all of the goals: by reducing the drag, cruise power could be lowered to the point where the range requirement could be met. They put forward their private project, the Ho IX, as the basis for the bomber. The Government Air Ministry (Reichsluftfahrtministerium) approved the Horten proposal, but ordered the addition of two 30 mm cannon, as they felt the aircraft would also be useful as a fighter due to its estimated top speed being significantly higher than that of any Allied aircraft.

The Ho 229 was of mixed construction, with the center pod made from welded steel tubing and wing spars built from wood. The wings were made from two thin, carbon-impregnated plywood panels glued together with a charcoal and sawdust mixture. The wing had a single main spar, penetrated by the jet engine inlets, and a secondary spar used for attaching the elevons. It was designed with a 7g load factor and a 1.8x safety rating; therefore, the aircraft had a 12.6g ultimate load rating. The wing's chord/thickness ratio ranged from 15% at the root to 8% at the wingtips.[1]

Control was achieved with elevons and spoilers. The control system included both long span (inboard) and short span (outboard) spoilers, with the smaller outboard spoilers activated first. This system gave a smoother and more graceful control of roll than would a single spoiler system.[1]

...During the final stages of the war, the U.S. military initiated Operation Paperclip, which was an effort by the various intelligence agencies to capture advanced German weapons research, and to deny that research to advancing Soviet troops. A Horten glider and the Ho 229 V3, which was undergoing final assembly, were secured and sent to Northrop Corporation in the United States for evaluation. Northrop was chosen because of their experience with flying wings, inspired by the Horten brothers' pre-war record-setting glider. Jack Northrop had been building flying wings since the N-1M in 1939.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horten_Ho_229

I know that eventually (post-WW2) , some Horten flying wings were evaluated at a University in the southern United States . I think that there was an H IV , but it seems to me that an unpowered H IX was also tested...

In any case , it's much more likely that Jack Northrop derived some inspiration from American glider designer Hawley Bowlus , although he was also quite aware of the Horten glider designs...

http://www.twitt.org/bowluswing.htm

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 7:56 AM

OUT2THEBLACK





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Thursday, December 10, 2009 8:30 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Oh, agreed, O2B. It just seems that there are an awful lot of people who are convinced that EVERYTHING "modern" had to come from the Nazis. Seems to me that it's quite likely that Northrop and Horten were drinking from the same well. I believe Horten proposed the idea of the all-wing aircraft FIRST, which caused Northrop to prick up his ears and get interested. Sometimes different people in different parts of the world hear some of the same stuff, and start thinking in remarkably similar directions. The development of the jet engine comes to mind as well, as does the development of nuclear weapons, which were being researched and actively pursued by not only the U.S., but by Germany and Japan as well, because they all had access to the same physics papers where the idea was first laid out.

And while nobody associated with the design of the 229 has ever said it was DESIGNED with stealth ideas in mind, the method of construction and its lower cross-section DID give it a smaller radar signature, but from what I've read, not much was really known about that at the time, other than in a "Hmmmm... whattaya know about that?" kind of way. It was about 20% less visible on the Chain Home stations than a Messerschmitt Bf-109. I don't think it was INTENDED to be stealthy, but I don't doubt that Northrop noticed the reduced visibility to radar when he started flying his own all-wing designs.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 8:53 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Oh, agreed, O2B. It just seems that there are an awful lot of people who are convinced that EVERYTHING "modern" had to come from the Nazis. Seems to me that it's quite likely that Northrop and Horten were drinking from the same well. I believe Horten proposed the idea of the all-wing aircraft FIRST, which caused Northrop to prick up his ears and get interested. Sometimes different people in different parts of the world hear some of the same stuff, and start thinking in remarkably similar directions.

...And while nobody associated with the design of the 229 has ever said it was DESIGNED with stealth ideas in mind, the method of construction and its lower cross-section DID give it a smaller radar signature, but from what I've read, not much was really known about that at the time, other than in a "Hmmmm... whattaya know about that?" kind of way. It was about 20% less visible on the Chain Home stations than a Messerschmitt Bf-109. I don't think it was INTENDED to be stealthy, but I don't doubt that Northrop noticed the reduced visibility to radar when he started flying his own all-wing designs.




Interestingly , the wiki article alludes to the adhesives used in the Ho229 having charcoal dust mixed in , and just as with the Mosquito bomber , using wood as a primary material reduced the radar signature of the aircraft...

Often , a low whetted area and cross-section has much to do with low visibility to radar , at least coincidentally if not by actual intention...

There is no doubt that Jack Northrop had been thinking about flying wings for a long time prior to the development of the N1M , but he also wasn't the first American to conceive of flying wings or to begin their development...There was a much earlier effort that is pretty much a footnote to American aviation history , designer's name escapes me presently , but the cargo-carrying advantages of a span-loaded flying wing were the impetus for the design...

Henri Coanda built a French 'jet' airplane design circa WW 1 !

Anyway , the TWITT link above shows an interesting picture of a flying wing on a California dry lake bed , and it's believed to be a Bowlus design , perhaps with some input by Don Mitchell...

Bowlus was the shop foreman who directed the constuction of the Ryan 'NYP' , and taught both Charles Lindbergh and Anne Morrow Lindbergh to fly gliders...



Not every bit of high-tech originated with the Nazis . Some folk believe that the best bits came from the 'space aliens'...

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 9:00 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:



Not every bit of high-tech originated with the Nazi's . Some folk believe that the best bits came from the 'space aliens'...





Okay, THAT was funny! :)



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Thursday, December 10, 2009 9:27 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


BURNELLI , that was the guy that I couldn't think of :

Vincent Justus Burnelli (November 22, 1895 – June 22, 1964) was an American aeronautics engineer, instrumental in furthering the lifting body

Lifting body
The lifting body is an aircraft configuration where the body itself produces lift. It is related to flying wing which is a wing without a conventional fuselage. A lifting body is a fuselage that generates lift without the shape of a typical thin and flat wing structure.
http://www.glossary.com/dictionary.php?q=Lifting%20body

A flying wing is a fixed-wing aircraft which has no definite fuselage, with most of the crew, payload and equipment being housed inside the main wing structure....


http://www.aircrash.org/burnelli/n23e.htm



Burnelli CBY-3 Transport Aircraft
http://www.1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/GauthierDavidJ/8080.ht
m



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Thursday, December 10, 2009 9:45 AM

OUT2THEBLACK




Jack Northrop's 1929 'Flying Wing' design



Anthony Stadlman with 'flying wing'

History of American 'flying wings' :

http://www.century-of-flight.net/Aviation%20history/flying%20wings/ear
ly%20US%20flying%20wings.htm




Bowlus-designed Transport glider XCG-16

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Airborne_Transport_XCG-16

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 9:48 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Good info. If memory serves, and for those old enough to remember, Col. Steve Austin becamse The Six Million Dollar Man after crashing an experimental lifting body. Seems like that was the first place I remember hearing the term.





Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 9:54 AM

DREAMTROVE


lol

I have pretty close to no idea what you're talking about. I thought all these flying wings were based on the Prometheus


Actually, I saw the B1 prototype fly, and a fair number of others... Still, I'm not up on military tech like a good gamer ;)

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 9:59 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Good info. If memory serves, and for those old enough to remember, Col. Steve Austin becamse The Six Million Dollar Man after crashing an experimental lifting body. Seems like that was the first place I remember hearing the term.





'Steve Austin' just appropriated Bruce Peterson's *actual* crash of the M2F2...






I had breakfast with the man who built the first 'lifting body' for NASA , a glider builder and pilot by the name of Briegleb...

The project was constructed with some of the NASA Edwards/Muroc janitorial-budget funds , and was authorized by another glider pilot
in charge of NASA flight test there ,
a fellow by the name of
Paul Bikle...Bikle held the world's glider altitude record for decades , beginning in the 1960's , flying out of Bishop , CA in the Sierra Nevada atmospheric wave...

Chuck Yeager did the first flights of Briegleb and Bikle's M2F1...That's how we got the follow-on M2F2 , Northrop HL-10 , the X-24 , and eventually , the space shuttle...



The Steve Austin *crash* was all M2F2 , but the Dryden flight sequences , showing separation , inflight shots , and all , were HL-10...

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 10:20 AM

OUT2THEBLACK



Mostly *wing* ; twin fuselage booms , with small horizontal tails...



Getting floaty inside SpaceShip2...


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Thursday, December 10, 2009 11:08 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Y'all should try playing SWOTL/SWON, I think you'd enjoy those.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Weapons_of_the_Luftwaffe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Weapons_Over_Normandy

You can get the latter for PS2 or Xbox cheap, as well.

I like SWOTL cause it's one of the few games which gives you the opportunity to fly a B-17, which provides a different aspect to things, cause you begin to appreciate the iron nerves that had to take, especially if you run the Bloody Half Hundred mission.

So far though, no decent sim for a Junkers JU87B, alas.

-F

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 12:17 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Y'all should try playing SWOTL/SWON, I think you'd enjoy those.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Weapons_of_the_Luftwaffe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Weapons_Over_Normandy

You can get the latter for PS2 or Xbox cheap, as well.

I like SWOTL cause it's one of the few games which gives you the opportunity to fly a B-17, which provides a different aspect to things, cause you begin to appreciate the iron nerves that had to take, especially if you run the Bloody Half Hundred mission.

So far though, no decent sim for a Junkers JU87B, alas.

-F



Yup , nothing wrong with SWOTL , or with flying a B-17 , for that matter...

The flight models on X-plane are pretty phenomenal , Rutan's Scaled Composites used the X-Plane sims to adapt into the SpaceShip One simulator... Here's a forum page with a Stuka for you :

http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?autocom=downloads&showfile=618

Though it's not a game , per se , it's a simulator...

Seems I also recall a Stuka game , or maybe I'm thinking of one with the IL-2 Stormovik...

The aviation world is small...The original story , Cyborg by Martin Caidin , was what became the Six Million Dollar Man on TV .

The subsequent novels , Operation : Nuke , and High Crystal were even better...Steve Austin was very Jason Bourne in the novels , and someone should get the film rights for these books...

Marty used to have a Junkers 52 transport plane , and I used to see him with it at Oshkosh...I'm pretty certain that it's the same 'Tante Ju' that eventually was re-exported to Lufthansa's collection ,
and which appeared in Valkyrie recently...Marty also wrote some Indiana Jones novels , which were pretty decent...

Another Aviation tech author that I like is M.E. Morris , and I love a spaceflight/espionage book that he did , called The Alpha Bug.

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 12:49 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I got a kick out of the "Secret Weapons..." games.

IL-2 Sturmovik: Birds of Prey has a decent JU-87B in it.


I know an old guy who was friends with my dad, who flew Martin Marauders in WWII (B-26). They had a short wing and a high stall speed, and a LOT of them were cracked up on landing because they needed to land at a higher speed than most other bombers of the time. He piloted the buggers, and lived to tell the tale. Good man, and some damned funny stories to tell.

He told me about his flight having to escort a damaged B-17 back across The Channel before D-Day. They got back okay, with the Marauders flying escort for the Seventeen, and once they got back, the crew just left the damn lummox on the end of the runway and hitched a ride back to their base. George said their mechanics got busy on the plane, got it all patched up and tip-top again, only the AAF never sent anyone to pick it up. Seems they didn't keep great track of their equipment back then...

So here's these young guys with access to a B-17 and all the fuel they can burn. He said they were all over England in that bugger, picking up ladies for rides, hopping to Ireland for whiskey, and so on. And once France was cracked open, they could hop over on furlough for some wine, women, and song. He said they kept that damn beast all through his tour, and it was still there when he finished his missions and shipped back stateside.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Thursday, December 10, 2009 5:35 PM

DREAMTROVE


argh

some image on this thread is too large. Post a smaller one, please, and link to the larger one, so I don't have to try to read the thread in 4 point type. Thanks

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Friday, December 11, 2009 7:03 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I got a kick out of the "Secret Weapons..." games.

IL-2 Sturmovik: Birds of Prey has a decent JU-87B in it.


I know an old guy who was friends with my dad, who flew Martin Marauders in WWII (B-26). They had a short wing and a high stall speed, and a LOT of them were cracked up on landing because they needed to land at a higher speed than most other bombers of the time. He piloted the buggers, and lived to tell the tale. Good man, and some damned funny stories to tell.

He told me about his flight having to escort a damaged B-17 back across The Channel before D-Day. They got back okay, with the Marauders flying escort for the Seventeen, and once they got back, the crew just left the damn lummox on the end of the runway and hitched a ride back to their base. George said their mechanics got busy on the plane, got it all patched up and tip-top again, only the AAF never sent anyone to pick it up. Seems they didn't keep great track of their equipment back then...

So here's these young guys with access to a B-17 and all the fuel they can burn. He said they were all over England in that bugger, picking up ladies for rides, hopping to Ireland for whiskey, and so on. And once France was cracked open, they could hop over on furlough for some wine, women, and song. He said they kept that damn beast all through his tour, and it was still there when he finished his missions and shipped back stateside.



Danged funny story...There are so many like that , and about 1,000 of these fellows pass away every day...

It's funny how some good airplanes acquire a bad rap...The B-26 was one of those , although when crews were training on them in Florida , there was a saying ,
" One a day in Tampa Bay ". One of the nicknames for it was 'Martin Murderer'.

Many folk don't realize that in WW2 , there were 2 airplanes designated 'B-26'. Of course that became confusing...The other one was the Douglas Invader , which was subsequently re-designated 'A-26' in recognition of its 'close-air support' ground attack duties...

The Invader was elegant and , for a 'bomber' , it was beautiful...It ended up flying in Korea and Vietnam , also .
http://a26invader.tripod.com/
Our hangar-mate is a retired airline pilot , who owns an Invader , a Lockheed T-33 , a North American T-28 , and I forget what else...He started his own 'air museum' and takes 'donations' and gives flights...One day my MD friend and myself were out to fly his Lake amphib , and we saw the Invader taxiing up to the gas pumps...The FBO owner is a fellow named 'Bill C.' , and my MD friend remarked ,
" I'll bet Bill gets a hard-on every time that thing comes over for fuel ! "

Then we went inside the office , and could see the Invader , black and shiny , right in front of the big plate-glass windows...


Bill C. was standing in front of the windows , a hand thrust in each hip pocket , jingling his change ! It was all we could do not to split our sides , and we had some big laughs about it afterward...

Anyways , SWOTL always puts me in mind of a bit of speculative fiction known in the modelling community as "Luft '46" , which refers to what history might've been like if the Luftwaffe had gone on for another year or so...

If one googles that term , a metric crapload of nifty stuff shows up...

Here's a vid that is apparently created in the Stormovik game , with a Horten 229 jet , and a rather too-brittle B-17 :


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Friday, December 11, 2009 7:37 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
argh

some image on this thread is too large. Post a smaller one, please, and link to the larger one, so I don't have to try to read the thread in 4 point type. Thanks



Okay ! That better ? Flyin' folk like their pics on the largish side , don'tcha know ?

You just need a bigger monitor , D-T...

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Friday, December 11, 2009 8:37 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Not bad, although the Ho-229 didn't carry enough ammo for that third pass and woulda been flying on vapors, besides which where was the fighter escort ?

I kept expecting some of those twin-tails to show up, yanno, cause they'd have made it that far with drop tanks.

And the B17 formation breaking was stupid, they shoulda did what they actually did in situations like that, the pulled in close and done the bomber boogie, calling off the range and vector with volleyed fire from every bomber in the pack - even the Luftwaffe thought that was some hairy shit, which is why they preferred to come at them from up-sun 4 or 7 at the waist gunners, who had a harder time hitting them, while giving them a beautiful broadside deflection target.

My preferred bomber killer is actually the Me-262 with a brace of R4M rockets, launching half on a pass from upsun 4, pull out into a rolling scissors/chandelle and hook back from upsun 7 with the other half, then strafe the formation behind them head on with the 30mm cannon as I break off to refuel - only escort fighter even came close to mixing it up with me was a P-47 Thunderbolt, they were flying high cover and the crazy little bastard dived at me to gain speed and emptied his guns at max range even though it caused him to stall cause I went high to lose him, prick hit me four times, too - but nothing worth a mention.

Might be worth remembering that I am a skilled ultralight pilot, and as such, "mad as bats".


-F

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Friday, December 11, 2009 8:37 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Whoops, double tapped the rocket pack, on that one.

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Friday, December 11, 2009 9:42 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Whoops, double tapped the rocket pack, on that one.



That's what my girl said , too !

One of my friends gave me the callsign 'BOOH' , which is an acronym for ' Bat Out Of Hell '.

Since you favor the Stormbirds , these'll be right up your alley...Exactly Replicated 262's , but using the GE CJ-610 powerplants , ala LearJet...

http://www.stormbirds.com/project/index.html
http://www.stormbirds.com/project/gallery/gallery_2001_1.htm


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Friday, December 11, 2009 5:37 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by out2theblack:

It's funny how some good airplanes acquire a bad rap...The B-26 was one of those , although when crews were training on them in Florida , there was a saying ,
" One a day in Tampa Bay ". One of the nicknames for it was 'Martin Murderer'.

Many folk don't realize that in WW2 , there were 2 airplanes designated 'B-26'. Of course that became confusing...The other one was the Douglas Invader , which was subsequently re-designated 'A-26' in recognition of its 'close-air support' ground attack duties...

The Invader was elegant and , for a 'bomber' , it was beautiful...It ended up flying in Korea and Vietnam , also .
http://a26invader.tripod.com/
Our hangar-mate is a retired airline pilot , who owns an Invader , a Lockheed T-33 , a North American T-28 , and I forget what else...He started his own 'air museum' and takes 'donations' and gives flights...One day my MD friend and myself were out to fly his Lake amphib , and we saw the Invader taxiing up to the gas pumps...The FBO owner is a fellow named 'Bill C.' , and my MD friend remarked ,
" I'll bet Bill gets a hard-on every time that thing comes over for fuel ! "

Then we went inside the office , and could see the Invader , black and shiny , right in front of the big plate-glass windows...


Bill C. was standing in front of the windows , a hand thrust in each hip pocket , jingling his change ! It was all we could do not to split our sides , and we had some big laughs about it afterward...

Anyways , SWOTL always puts me in mind of a bit of speculative fiction known in the modelling community as "Luft '46" , which refers to what history might've been like if the Luftwaffe had gone on for another year or so...

If one googles that term , a metric crapload of nifty stuff shows up...

Here's a vid that is apparently created in the Stormovik game , with a Horten 229 jet , and a rather too-brittle B-17 :







Yessir, plenty of people called the Marauder the "Widowmaker" because of how she treated so many of her crews, but the guys who learned to fly her right just loved her. Tough birds.

And I *LOVED* the Invader. Beautiful, tough-looking plane. Absolutely looks like it was designed around the biggest, most powerful engines they could find (like a Corsair was, which is why they had to give it the inverted gull wing, just to make extra ground clearance to swing that giant prop!), with just enough of a fuselage to stuff some bombs, guns, and a few crew into. Wicked bastard of a plane.

My older brother got to go up in a B-25 Mitchell a few weeks ago. He's doing some high-end patterned concrete work for a fella down in San Antonio who owns a few birds and an awful lot of cars (including a new Ford GT and a Lamborghini Gallardo). Anyway, he was talking to my brother, and warbirds came up, and he mentioned he had the Mitchell, and offered my bro a ride. He's still grinning like a kid over it.

I've been in and around warbirds most of my life, but never got to go up in any of them. :( My dad worked at a Cessna dealer to pay his way through flight school, and just down the way was Charlie Day's Aircraft Refinishing, who did a ton of paintwork for the old Confederate Air Force back in the day. So when something interesting came in, he'd take us down and get the crew to let us check 'em out. Crawled all through "Fifi", the world's only flying B-29 Superfortress, been in "Diamond Lil", at the time the world's only flying B-24 Liberator, been in Bell Aircobras and even a Twin Mustang (now THERE'S an odd duck!)



Seen a few Hispano-Suiza Me-109 copies, and even their version of a Heinkel He-111.

Good times, great planes.

By the way, O2B - I spy a Curtiss C-46 behind that Invader, don't I? :)

Good talkin' about a common interest for once, instead of fighting...

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Saturday, December 12, 2009 11:53 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:


Yessir, plenty of people called the Marauder the "Widowmaker" because of how she treated so many of her crews, but the guys who learned to fly her right just loved her. Tough birds.

And I *LOVED* the Invader. Beautiful, tough-looking plane. Absolutely looks like it was designed around the biggest, most powerful engines they could find (like a Corsair was, which is why they had to give it the inverted gull wing, just to make extra ground clearance to swing that giant prop!), with just enough of a fuselage to stuff some bombs, guns, and a few crew into. Wicked bastard of a plane.

My older brother got to go up in a B-25 Mitchell a few weeks ago. He's doing some high-end patterned concrete work for a fella down in San Antonio who owns a few birds and an awful lot of cars (including a new Ford GT and a Lamborghini Gallardo). Anyway, he was talking to my brother, and warbirds came up, and he mentioned he had the Mitchell, and offered my bro a ride. He's still grinning like a kid over it.

I've been in and around warbirds most of my life, but never got to go up in any of them. :( My dad worked at a Cessna dealer to pay his way through flight school, and just down the way was Charlie Day's Aircraft Refinishing, who did a ton of paintwork for the old Confederate Air Force back in the day. So when something interesting came in, he'd take us down and get the crew to let us check 'em out. Crawled all through "Fifi", the world's only flying B-29 Superfortress, been in "Diamond Lil", at the time the world's only flying B-24 Liberator, been in Bell Aircobras and even a Twin Mustang (now THERE'S an odd duck!)



Seen a few Hispano-Suiza Me-109 copies, and even their version of a Heinkel He-111.

Good times, great planes.

By the way, O2B - I spy a Curtiss C-46 behind that Invader, don't I? :)

Good talkin' about a common interest for once, instead of fighting...



I could go on and on...How much time you got ?

Yup , of course that's a Commando , I nicked the picture on quick notice , 'cause it's a similar Invader , though not the same...I wondered if you'd spot that...

Do you happen to know the name of the fellow in San Antonio ? The reason I ask , over 30 years ago , when I was a primary flight student in powered aircraft , I knew a guy in East Tx who was an 'investment counselor' , had only recently learned to fly , and was beginning to invest in warbirds...He had a Me-108 Hispano 4-seater based with the CAF wing down at San Antone...

Incidentally , I've been in FiFi , sat at every crew station , and had Diamond Lil and a C-46 on the ramp all at the same time...One of the great things about that occasion was a man in our flying club was an aero engineer from way back , had worked at Seversky on the P-35 , later , Republic Aircraft on the Liberator , then with Hughes where he was Flight Engineer on the Spruce Goose...I have a lot of close personal and familial connections to the aerospace industry and to the resultant aircraft...I've probably sat in more P-51's than anyone in the world , even though it's nice , it still isn't my favorite warbird...

My greatest mentor and benefactor in aviation who was not related is an old Colonel who used to command a USAF Phantom base...He *wrecked* his first airplane when he was 13 years old !
He opened many doors for me , and continues to enrich my life...

He was appalled to find that I love the Corsair more than the Mustang , and likewise appalled that I'd rather fly a Hornet than a Strike Eagle ! Not that I'm fond of the Navy , or anything . Just love the flying machines...

You're right , the Invader used R-2800 corncobs just like the Corsair...Useful , if you have to 'swing a big one'...

Incidentally , I got to fly a Cessna 'warbird'...Ever heard of an LC-126C ? It's a beauty...


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Saturday, December 12, 2009 12:31 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
... nuclear weapons, which were being researched and actively pursued by not only the U.S., but by Germany and Japan as well, because they all had access to the same physics papers where the idea was first laid out.


And the UK. The Manhattan project was a combination of separate UK and US projects, and was in fact a joint project between Canada, Australia, the US and the UK.

That fact seems to be swept under the carpet in US history books, much like the involvement of British and Canadian troops at D-Day...

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Saturday, December 12, 2009 3:48 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Hadn't heard of the LC-126c - but HAVE heard of the Cessna 195. Beautiful planes.

Funny, I didn't realize the Invader and Corsair were built around the same engines - it just always struck me that they have the definitely LOOK of planes that were built around an existing powerful engine, instead of designing an airframe and then fitting an engine to it afterward.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Saturday, December 12, 2009 3:49 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
... nuclear weapons, which were being researched and actively pursued by not only the U.S., but by Germany and Japan as well, because they all had access to the same physics papers where the idea was first laid out.


And the UK. The Manhattan project was a combination of separate UK and US projects, and was in fact a joint project between Canada, Australia, the US and the UK.

That fact seems to be swept under the carpet in US history books, much like the involvement of British and Canadian troops at D-Day...



Thanks for saying, Cit. And you're right - it DOES tend to get overlooked, and damned well shouldn't.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Saturday, December 12, 2009 3:50 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Heck, I've been up in many rickety stunt planes, airshow fighters and general light aviation, most ESPECIALLY since missing two flights I paid for because of the TSA shakedown, which turned me offa flyin commercial forever.

Alas, not having any actual formal training, nor willing to spend the huge monetary investment, I have no pilots license, which is why I fly ultralights - although I know someone with a replica SPAD 2 seater used for stunts, skywriting and crop dusting, although you have to take the attachments off to avoid damaging them if you're going to roll inverted.

Worst of show was taking a really LONG trip in the back of a freakin P51 Mustang Trainer, let's just say that stops bein fun after about, oh, an HOUR or so - and it was way longer than that...
And gawd help you if you hafta piss.

And comin in a close second was an emergency flight for reasons unspecified in a damned barnstormer flying nape of the earth cause we couldn't friggin see, holding at the edge of stall speed mosta the way cause of snow and ice sticking to us and weighing us down, having to air tack against the wind and at one point make a screwball forward-slip landing in a crosswind and bribe someone to assist us with a discreet refueling operation - and takin off with THAT much tailwind was a unique event I hope stays unique, yanno ?

Of course, I've also logged a damned impressive amount of hours on chainsaw or rotax powered ultralights, to the point where if the airframe is suitable and the conditions good enough, I can dead stick one of em (shut off the engine and operate it as a heavy and less efficient glider) and as such get some seriously impressive range and flight duration - which means I don't *HAVE* a Fuel Bingo, I can just damn well keep goin, although I generally do keep that itty bitty reserve pint over for tough landings.

Speakin of, there's a REASON there are automotive shocks on the landing gear of that GT-400UL, cause I can indeed do the infamous stop-n-drop landing made famous by the Fiesler Fi 156, but it's a little rough on the stock landing gear - the airframe stands up just fine though, so does the pilot if you remember not to bite your tongue cause you're talkin shit on the radio...
(i.e. Hey Y'all, watch this!)

Too old for it now, really, but damn it was fun, not to mention useful - still is if I can get someone else crazy enough to operate the damn thing, so far, no go.

-F

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Saturday, December 12, 2009 8:58 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Yanno, embarrassing or not, that conversation was just too funny to not share, so imma try to paraphrase it from memory, best I can.

Somewhere over backass of nowhere, USA, circa noon.

Frem: Larry ?
Larry: Ayuh ?
Frem: I gotta pee.
Larry: So ?
Frem: So ? I gotta pee.
Larry: Whadda ya want me to do about it, pull over ?
Frem: So find somewhere to land.
Larry: Isn't anywhere, our nearest strip is our refuel, so hold it for 44 minutes.
Frem: Improvise.
Larry: Hell no, this plane cost more than my house, and it ain't your chainsaw powered dominator, I can't just plop down in some yahoos cornfield, I actually do need a strip with this monster.
Frem: But I gotta pee.
Larry: I gave you two bottles didn't I ?
(I wondered why one was empty...)
Frem: Umm, ick, NO, I ain't doin that.
Larry: *laughs*
Frem: Seriously, man, no.
Larry: So hang it out the window.
Frem: *glare*
Larry: Seriously, man, whadda ya want me to do about it ?
Frem: Go faster.
Larry: Ok, I'll try to shave it, but it eats more fuel and this thing ain't exactly fuel efficient, but it's your dime.
Frem: I thought you were this hot shit pilot.
Larry: Oh really ? maybe I should demo a few stunts for you...
Frem: I would kill you.
Larry: *laughs* And who'd fly the plane, YOU ?
Frem: Uhhh.
Larry: Oh please you old stick shaker, all you got is raw talent and killer instinct, you don't even know what half them instruments DO.
Frem: You are so gonna pay when we get on the ground.
Larry: Yeah, but I get a head start while you're takin a whiz, and I'm pretty quick.
Frem: *pout*

(FIVE MINUTES LATER)

Frem: Larry ?
Larry: What!
Frem: I gotta pee.
Larry: AARRRGGGHHHH!

I bought him eight cases of beer, and paid for the fuel, though.


-F

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Monday, December 14, 2009 2:29 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Hadn't heard of the LC-126c - but HAVE heard of the Cessna 195. Beautiful planes.




Especially pretty as a floatplane...Classic art-deco looks .






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Monday, December 14, 2009 2:35 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Yanno, embarrassing or not, that conversation was just too funny to not share, so imma try to paraphrase it from memory, best I can.

Somewhere over backass of nowhere, USA, circa noon.

Frem: Larry ?
Larry: Ayuh ?
Frem: I gotta pee.
Larry: So ?
Frem: So ? I gotta pee.
Larry: Whadda ya want me to do about it, pull over ?
Frem: So find somewhere to land.
Larry: Isn't anywhere, our nearest strip is our refuel, so hold it for 44 minutes.
Frem: Improvise.
Larry: Hell no, this plane cost more than my house, and it ain't your chainsaw powered dominator, I can't just plop down in some yahoos cornfield, I actually do need a strip with this monster.
Frem: But I gotta pee.
Larry: I gave you two bottles didn't I ?
(I wondered why one was empty...)
-F



You'd be amazed how well that works...I remember wizzing in a bottle once over Colorado , during a ferry flight , and all it takes to 'dump' it is to open the window a crack...The slipstream takes the liquid away instantaneously , which may be why hanging yang from a Mustang wouldn't be a good idea...

P.S.- If you happen to be a little kid with 'limited range' , it is NOT a good idea to tank up on a 12-oz. soda BEFORE going out with the old man and his instructor for a couple HOURS of touch-and-goes...

My range was never quite as limited afterward... thankfully , the balloon did not bust...

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