Okay, here's a new thread where we can rant and rave and offer our opinions of the war itself. May I respectfully request that the one about the culture ..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

War in Afghanistan

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Thursday, April 15, 2021 16:10
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 4322
PAGE 1 of 2

Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:03 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Okay, here's a new thread where we can rant and rave and offer our opinions of the war itself. May I respectfully request that the one about the culture and people of the country be allowed to sink of its own weight; obviously there is no further interest in that aspect, and much interest in our current involvement there, so let it go here. Thank you.





NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:18 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


<>o take it above the other Afghanistan thread...I KNOW you want to discuss the war, it's only logical that we should, I just want to let the other thread sink of its own weight and put this one above it.




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:19 AM

DREAMTROVE


Niki

Thanks, and good idea.

I'm going to change the title. I skipped this thread on the first pass because I assumed it was PN (sorry John, you post more than I have time to read.)

ETA: I also changed to "Afghan" assuming the greater meaning to include the Pashtun of Pakistan and any related populations which might get caught up in this conflict.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:39 AM

BYTEMITE


Okay, so here's a question. What are the cultural influences involved in this war? We have various factions (Taliban, Al Qaeda, installed Afghan government, us, various warlords, probably even more), but it's difficult to discern where tribal/village allegiance might fall.

Granted, there are a number of villages being paid or forced to support whoever is passing through at the time. I believe someone here once said something along the lines of "I'll bend my knee to you now if you'll go away later and leave me alone." But surely, there has to be some villages/groups that do support one faction over another, as opposed to just going with the flow in order to survive? These factions have to be getting support from somewhere, right?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I can't speak to your question authoritatively, and it was I who quoted the "bend your knee" thing. It's the attitude the Afghans have had toward all their conquerors...at least the rural people, who know their country won't be held by anyone for long, so they just pretend acceptance and wait.

Most villages go with the above, from what I'm told and have read. The Taliban and Al Qaeda are supported by outside influences, they don't need the support of the rural areas, and indeed, the rural areas have nothing to offer in the way of support except picking up a rifle and fighting when the fight comes to them.

It's been explained previously, and on TV and in print, that in most cases, when the war comes to their village, they side with anyone but the Americans because we are the foreigners, and also because there's nothing else to do, so the young men fight "just 'cuz", weird as that seems.

There are some areas actually RULED by the Taliban, or warlords who follow them, etc., and those areas are firmly anti-American. Al Qaeda hardly exists in Afghanistan, it's moved on, and was originally manned by non-Afghans anyway. But the Taliban has a stranglehold on a lot of the rural areas, partly because rural areas are more conservative, more closely followers of Islam. I don't think they'd fight us if we didn't bring the battle TO them, but there are also many areas where the Taliban is hated and feared, so if we help, they'll fight to get rid of them.

It's complex. The differences between rural and urban areas are huge; not just financially, but literacy-wise, religiously, exposure to different ideas, and more. The South has ALWAYS been the traditional base of the Mullahs and more conservative; the North, with Kabul in it's heart, has always been more modern and westernized. So you've got that working as well; and in the far North, where the mujahadeen began, it's more warlord-run.

There's just too much space--space that is difficult to traverse--in one country for centralized government to work at this time, and for the spreading of different ideas to take hold very quickly.

That's what I believe from my experience and what I'm told. I'm sure there's more to it.




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:59 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Niki

Thanks, and good idea.

I'm going to change the title. I skipped this thread on the first pass because I assumed it was PN (sorry John, you post more than I have time to read.)

ETA: I also changed to "Afghan" assuming the greater meaning to include the Pashtun of Pakistan and any related populations which might get caught up in this conflict.



For Folk permaybehaps wondering about the motive for this present war in AFbamaScam , check out this google search result :

http://www.google.com/search?q=Cheney+pipeline+Afghanistan&sourceid=ie
7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8


Interesting reading , should hold Folk for a few ticks...Poly-ticks...Many bloodsuckers...

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:01 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Most of us don't wonder, we already know the answer to that, just as we do to the reasons for the war in Iraq. I believe DT enumerated it quite clearly in another post, and I agree with 3 out of his 4 conclusions.




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:11 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
...Most of us don't wonder, we already know the answer to that, just as we do to the reasons for the war in Iraq. I believe DT enumerated it quite clearly in another post, and I agree with 3 out of his 4 conclusions.




I happen to agree with more than 75% of DT's conclusions in this matter...

Isn't the point of discussion to educate and inform ?

If you already *know* all the answers , why are you still raising the questions ? Just looking for another opportunity to beat your gums , so to speak ?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/can-the-americans-win-a-l
and-war-in-afghanistan-670448.html


Sunday, 23 September 2001

' "We do deserts, we don't do mountains," said Colin Powell when he was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff as the Balkans' conflict erupted. '

http://www.ringnebula.com/Oil/Timeline.htm

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:17 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!




Afghan President Karzai Says US Army Must Continue Afghan War Until 2024
www.nytimes.com/2009/12/09/world/asia/09gates.html

Queen of England gives Afghan President Karzai knighthood
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2968994.stm

Afghan President Karzai's Brother Under Drug Suspicion
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,434523,00.html

Afghan president Karzai’s brother on CIA payroll
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33500863/


Afghan heroin production up 1,400% since the US/UK invasion

The Assassination Of Pat Tillman
http://www.rense.com/general77/assassination.htm
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/7/27/21214/1997

Afghan Prime Minister: No Afghan Involved In 9/11 Attacks
http://news.ino.com/headlines/?newsid=100720090301

None of the alleged 9/11 "suicide hijackers" were citizens of Afghanistan, and half are still alive giving interviews to BBC News and flying for Saudi Airlines and Saudi Air Force. Bush Jr signed the order to invade Afghanistan 1 day before 9/11/2001, and the US Army was already on the border of Afghanistan on 9/11.



Quote:

"I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks.”
-Usama bin Laden, CNN, "Bin Laden says he wasn't behind attacks," September 17, 2001
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming."
-Dick Cheney, "Interview of the Vice President by Tony Snow", March 29, 2006
www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/03/20060329-2.html

"I have already said that I am not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other human beings as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. According to my information, the death toll is much higher than what the U.S. Government has stated. But the Bush Administration does not want the panic to spread. The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself; the people who are a part of the U.S. system, but are dissenting against it. Or those who are working for some other system; persons who want to make the present century as a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity so that their own civilization, nation, country, or ideology could survive. They can be anyone, from Russia to Israel and from India to Serbia. In the U.S. itself, there are dozens of well-organized and well-equipped groups, which are capable of causing a large-scale destruction. Then you cannot forget the American-Jews, who are annoyed with President Bush ever since the elections in Florida and want to avenge him. This system is totally in the control of the American Jews, whose first priority is Israel, not the United States. It is clear that the American people are themselves the slaves of the Jews and are forced to live according to the principles and laws laid down by them."
-Usama Bin Laden, Ummat magazine, September 28, 2001
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/obl_int.htm

Usama Bin Laden's funeral: Egyptian Paper Al-Wafd, Wednesday, December 26, 2001
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/osama_dead.html

"He also had dealings with Omar Sheikh [MI6 born in Britain], the man who murdered Usama Bin Laden."
-Pakistani prime minister Benazir Bhutto (assassinated 6 weeks later), BBC interview by Sir David Frost Knight of the British Empire, 2nd November 2007
youtube.com/watch?v=oIO8B6fpFSQ
http://www.iraq-war.ru/article/151951
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/dec/28/pakistan.topstories33

"The FBI has issued a BOLO on suspected terrorists driving a white delivery van from New York City to the Mexican border. The suspects are using Israeli passports. They are armed and dangerous."
-Knox County TN Emergency 911 Dispatch, Sept 11, 2001, 11am EST
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0622-05.htm

The first terrorist bombers arrested in USA on 9/11/2001 were Israeli Mossad says Fox News. There were over 500 of them, infiltrating US military bases and all police agencies. They were dressed as Muslims, "dancing in happiness" while watching and videotaping the World Trade Center explode. All were allowed to leave USA, and none were tortured to confess at Gitmo.
youtube.com/watch?v=tRfhUezbKLw
youtube.com/watch?v=JWpWc_suPWo
www.whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html

14 Israeli "art students" were living in World Trade Center Towers with forged Construction Passes, connection to Mossad spy ring infiltrating every US military base and police agency in USA, arrested and deported from USA after 9/11/2001:
http://www.rense.com/general87/14_1.htm
youtube.com/watch?v=edxYE9sZ5WI

Israel tried to sink USS Liberty to blame Egypt:
www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=uss+liberty
http://www.gtr5.com/

"A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, no question about it."
—George Bush Jr



"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on."
-George W Bush, Gridiron Dinner, March 2001

9/11 Inside Job as confessed in Pentagon's Operation Northwoods
http://september911surprise.piratenews.org
www.piratenews.org/911con.html



Governor Jesse Ventura and Prosecutor Vinnie Bugliosi says Arrest George Bush and execute him for murder
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=41125








NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, December 15, 2009 2:11 PM

BYTEMITE


Interesting. So less so much specific groups and cultural ideas, and more so geographical isolation?

That makes some sense. Could this have anything to do with the ideas about authoritarianism you read about in that book? This concept of more extreme and traditional away from the urban centers makes me think of the FLDS compounds in southern Utah.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, December 15, 2009 2:24 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


It's "AFGHAN", not "Afgan" PN, you feckless moron.



Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, December 15, 2009 2:41 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


http://www.ericmargolis.com/political_commentaries/afghanistan-a-war-o
f-lies.aspx



I really like this journalist, he has actually spent time in this part of the world ( I read one his books where he talks about his two trips being smuggled across the Pakistan border during the Soviet occupation )

AFGHANISTAN: A WAR OF LIES
- October 12, 2009
President Barack Obama and Congress are wrestling with widening the war in Afghanistan. After eight years of military operations costing US $236 billion, the US commander in Afghanistan just warned of the threat of `failure,’ aka defeat.

Truth is war’s first casualty. The Afghan War’s biggest untruth is, `we’ve got to fight terrorists over there so we don’t have to fight them at home.’ Politicians and generals keep using this canard to justify a war they can’t otherwise explain or justify.

Many North Americans still buy this lie because they believe the 9/11 attacks came directly from the Afghanistan-based al-Qaida and Taliban movements.

Not true. The 9/11 attacks were planned in Germany and Spain, and conducted mainly by US-based Saudis to punish America for supporting Israel’s repression of the Palestinians.

Taliban, a militant religious, anti-Communist movement of Pashtun tribesmen, was totally surprised by 9/11. Osama bin Laden, on whom 9/11 is blamed, was in Afghanistan as a guest because he was a national hero for fighting the Soviets in the 1980’s and was aiding Taliban’s struggle against the Afghan Communist-dominated Northern Alliance afterwards.

Taliban received US aid until May, 2001. The CIA was planning to use Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaida to stir up Muslim Uighurs against Chinese rule, and to employ Taliban against Russia’s Central Asian allies. Most of the so-called `terrorist training camps’ in Afghanistan were being run by Pakistani intelligence to prepare mujahidin fighters for combat in Indian-held Kashmir.

continues

http://www.ericmargolis.com/political_commentaries/afghanistan-a-war-o
f-lies.aspx





Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists


Lets party like its 1939

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, December 15, 2009 5:23 PM

DREAMTROVE


Gino

Thanks. Fascinating stuff.


Niki, yes nice, concise. I don't mean don't rant, feel free, but understand that I, personally, right now, don't have a lot of free time. I have like a few minutes free to check and respond, and I'm not a lightning fast reader. Long posts, directed at me, if they're a discussion of a subject, I'll mark to read later. If they're stuff I'm interested in, I'll do the same.

I totally disagree with Frem here. I wasn't dictating, I as simply saying: a 5 page rant about why I'm wrong? I'm not going to read it. I don't have the time, and currently, from work, my stress level is *way* too high to deal with that.

If I make an error, or we disagree, kindly, just point it out concisely.

Thanks


Oh, and nice short posts.


Notice that PN just wrote a book. Esp. when you add watching all the videos, and reading all the links.


So, Nik, do you? When John posts all those 18 min vids and links to 8 page stories, do you watch, do you read it all, do you even read his posts? Or do you just hit page down 6 times in a row?

If it's the latter, then you get the point. it's a rant, doesn't matter about what.


Currently, I'm very stressed and ultra-short on time. I haven't had a solid hour off from work since Thanksgiving, I haven't had a day off in years.

New years I'm planning on quitting, trying to, do something else with my life, because I'm actually a little worried about dying. My healthcare plan is giving me the run around, I'm fairly certain I have cancer because I am pretty damn good at biology, and I can't even get the fucking tests because I'm in HMO hell. All of which doesn't help reduce my stress level at all.

So, my apologies to everyone if I've been a dick lately, I'm not having the best time ever right now.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 16, 2009 3:44 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

AFGHANISTAN: A WAR OF LIES
The Afghan War’s biggest untruth is, `we’ve got to fight terrorists over there so we don’t have to fight them at home.’ Politicians and generals keep using this canard to justify a war they can’t otherwise explain or justify.
Many North Americans still buy this lie because they believe the 9/11 attacks came directly from the Afghanistan-based al-Qaida and Taliban movements.

Not true. The 9/11 attacks were planned in Germany and Spain, and conducted mainly by US-based Saudis to punish America for supporting Israel’s repression of the Palestinians.


We never were too concerned with the Taliban atrocities against civilians in Afghanistan until after 911. I think we're there for one reason only; to have a contingency force nearby in case the Taliban get close to the Pakistani nukes if that government collapses.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 16, 2009 5:31 AM

BYTEMITE


Off topic Edit. To the PM system!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 16, 2009 7:05 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
agree with Frem here. I wasn't dictating, I as simply saying: a 5 page rant about why I'm wrong? I'm not going to read it. I don't have the time, and currently, from work, my stress level is *way* too high to deal with that.

If I make an error, or we disagree, kindly, just point it out concisely.

Thanks


Oh, and nice short posts.


Notice that PN just wrote a book. Esp. when you add watching all the videos, and reading all the links.


So, Nik, do you? When John posts all those 18 min vids and links to 8 page stories, do you watch, do you read it all, do you even read his posts? Or do you just hit page down 6 times in a row?

If it's the latter, then you get the point. it's a rant, doesn't matter about what.



Brings ta mind NewOldBrownCoat's Rule:
"Any time the posts in a thread get longer than 1 page, it's time to quit reading that thread."

As to Afghanistan, it's long past time to just bring the boys ( and GIRLS, PN punked me on that one.) HOME. There's no gain there, not even anything to hold stable, no credible threat that can be actually stopped, that's worth the cost.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 16, 2009 7:15 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

If you already *know* all the answers , why are you still raising the questions ? Just looking for another oportunity [sic] to beat your gums , so to speak ?
Gawd, OTB, you’re a real asshole, aren’t you?? I quite clearly said I don’t know all the answers, and I wasn’t asking any questions…answered Byte’s question to the best of my ability, and started this out by saying “Okay, here's a new thread where we can rant and rave and offer our opinions of the war itself. What does any of that have to do with your asinine statement? Nothing, obviously. What thread were YOU reading? You’re strange. And nasty.

Yes, byte, I think you phrased it well; more about geography. While virtually all Afghans are Muslim, they view and practice Islam differently in many cases. Some areas are more lax in following its tenants, others much more conservative. And your remark is especially cogent, as it was for hundreds of years (and still is to a degree) “governed” by local warlords—a large part of the reason the shah who was there when we lived there didn’t attempt to “rule” the whole country, but more to provide a central government to deal with the outside world and major matters.

You also nailed real good the correlation to authoritarianism. I would say that’s right on; seclusion from other ideas and people makes for a really good climate for authoritarians (tribal leaders, warlords) with strong control over their areas. Discourse with other areas and the outside world creates a very insular community, prime for authoritarian rule. I do see your comparison with the FLDS…don’t like it, but yes, I see it. ;o)

Gino, yes, I think the material you supplied shows a good grasp of the situation. This bullpucky about having to defeat the terrorists or they’ll “come here” shows how well Dumbya and his people used fear to justify both Iraq and Afghanistan, and the idea that the Taliban would hook up with Al Qaeda if we left is equally absurd and equally plays on fear. The Taliban and Al Qaeda are very different and have been at odds with one another virtually since the beginning. I can’t imagine the Taliban giving a “base” to Al Qaeda in my wildest dreams; for one thing, having terrorists make a base there would make them more vulnerable to outside military action, and their aim is control of Afghanistan (and possibly areas around it). They’re not “terrorists”, they’re a religious faction which wants to control the country and make everyone abide by their religious tenants, not take a jihad global. That people have bought into both these “canards” sickens me…and DT had some pretty pertinent remarks similar to what the author wrote on the subject. Propaganda can be effective, and it has been here.\

DT, I’m not sure to what you are referring. Frem didn’t post in this thread, so I don’t know what you are disagreeing with, or to what else you are referring. Maybe I’ll find the reference In another thread? As to PN:
Quote:

So, Nik, do you? When John posts all those 18 min vids and links to 8 page stories, do you watch, do you read it all, do you even read his posts? Or do you just hit page down 6 times in a row?
Heavens no; I’ve railed numerous times about wearing out my “scrolling finger” getting past his rants; I may skim what HE actually writes now and again, tho’ usually I get turned off by the very first comment, but I pay no attention to 99% of his idiocy!

But I, too, am concerned about your health…and as usual, royally pissed at for-profit HMOs and their dictatorial attitudes. Of course we didn’t need any public option, or any form of competition! I think tho’ some of us disagree about how it should be done, most of us agree the situation is untenable and something needs to be done to bring their monopolies in line. that there will be no public option of any kind yet the individual mandate stands. Talk about a gimme!

But beyond my rant, I’m worried…is there no way you can fight back to get the tests? I have several friends who have contested the idiotic denials of HMOs successfully—sure it’s a fight, but it could be well worth it, and get you whatever treatment you need. Let us know how it goes, please? While I can certainly understand your need to free up your time, leaving would be a major loss for US, selfishly!

Yes, Jong…considering atrocities are occurring all over the world, and certainly in parts of Africa FAR worse than in Afghanistan, it speaks volumes that we are there, and points clearly to ulterior motives, as did Iraq and other places we’ve “invaded” to “help”.




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 16, 2009 7:43 AM

BYTEMITE


Sorry about that. Since you know people from Afghanistan, it probably isn't pleasant to hear me bring up the FLDS, and if it makes any difference, I imagine the FLDS are WAY crazier than rural Afghans. Afghans just have a religion, whereas FLDS have arranged marriage power plays.

The FLDS are just the only local example of a similar isolation/control/religion situation I have to call upon for my own relation to the conversation.

I appreciate your answering my question. I do have a little bit more insight into the workings of the Afghanistan country side.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 16, 2009 8:33 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Hee, hee, hee...the one thing you point out as different about the FLDS was arranged marriages. Ooops; in Afghanistan when I was there, and no doubt still in the rural areas, marriages weren't just "arranged", potential wives were PAID FOR in "dowry", and sometimes it was like an auction, brides being offered numerous fees by several potential husbands, as I described in my post. That the old man upped his price because he thought I was the potential bride is an example.

Also, young women are forced into marriage virtually always with older men, and have no say whatsoever in who they marry. NOT any longer the way things are done in urban Afghanistan (or at least not as much, I hope!), but previously, and I'd bet still in the villages...

Remember too that until recently women had no rights whatsoever and were forced to wear that horrid head-to-toe chadri in public, and could never be seen by any male except relatives. No, treatment of women under Islamic law, especially as interpreted by the Taliban, is far more despicable than the FLDS ever dreamed of.

I was sad to see the comparison, but recognized it. (By the way, I was a "dunked" Mormon in my teens--dropped it in shock when I discovered their racist policies!) The one thing different that I know of with Afghanistan is that the leader doesn't take advantage of the women in the same way as I've read about in cults. Women are chattel, for sure, but the concept of multiple wives and incest wasn't something I heard about from anyone I know, or I saw around me back then.

And I THINK the tenants of Islam are more, uh, "respectable" if you will, in that they don't preach the same kind of insanity as many cults, or teachings put forth by one crazy person; Islam is interpreted differently, admittedly, but the basic teachings of Islam are at the root everywhere.




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 16, 2009 8:47 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Strangely enough, I also know more than I ever wanted to about the FLDS, and have some pretty solid cred with them - helped them go toe to toe with the "powers that be" and their machinery during the El Dorado incident, followed up with helping them discretely flush out many of the bad actors who's conduct led to that mess in the first place, and assisted them with the crisis of faith that losing that much of their leadership caused - any religion has the potential for religious leaders to abuse it in so many ways that such a thing can creep up on you to the point where you can see the corruption but feel hopeless to challenge it, which is kinda how the FLDS came to be, but then fell themselves to such corruption from inside their own - I feel it's kinda the nature of religion in general, but that's neither here nor there.

I do consider them strange, and in some ways oppressive, but I wouldn't consider em all that dangerous, except to their own.

There's way worse out there though, given the mess in el dorado, and the TX authorities rather deliberate provocation in announcing intent and desire to attack other reclusive religious groups, it caused something of an arms race where many of the more screwball ones stockpiled enough firepower to take both sides to hell and gone as well as having utterly no intention to surrender or cooperate - thankfully the failure of the Baptist Cabal within the "authorities" to pull off their intended destruction put a chill on that, as did the idea of trying to storm communes or complexes that might fight back effectively, but that situation still does exist and no one has sold off their stockpiles yet - I can't really blame em, since buying them in the first place *DID* put a rather sudden stop to further official aggression, despite my advice against it since I felt it would unhelpfully escalate things.

Anyhows, so far as religious types go, the FLDS are far, far from as dangerous as some of the other, lesser known groups out there, just so you know - but I take your point, yes.

-F

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 16, 2009 9:10 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

AFGHANISTAN: A WAR OF LIES
The Afghan War’s biggest untruth is, `we’ve got to fight terrorists over there so we don’t have to fight them at home.’ Politicians and generals keep using this canard to justify a war they can’t otherwise explain or justify.
Many North Americans still buy this lie because they believe the 9/11 attacks came directly from the Afghanistan-based al-Qaida and Taliban movements.

Not true. The 9/11 attacks were planned in Germany and Spain, and conducted mainly by US-based Saudis to punish America for supporting Israel’s repression of the Palestinians.


We never were too concerned with the Taliban atrocities against civilians in Afghanistan until after 911. I think we're there for one reason only; to have a contingency force nearby in case the Taliban get close to the Pakistani nukes if that government collapses.




But before all this started Musharraf was running a relatively stable Pakistan... then pressure from the US removed him and Pakistan into relative unstabilty. Plus threats, obvious bribe money, drone attacks.....

If the government there collapses... who stirred everything there up to begin with?



Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists


Lets party like its 1939

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 16, 2009 9:15 AM

BYTEMITE


No no, Niki, you misunderstood me. The emphasis wasn't on arranged marriages, the emphasis was on the POWER PLAY. It's extremely corrupt and sad.

I read a little bit about Pashtun marriages recently because I write as a hobby, and I was writing something where that might come up. There's a lot that goes on with the Pashtun marriages, the parents all usually have to agree, then the leader and elders have to agree, then there's the dowries and etc. As I understand it, in rural areas you often do have young girls getting married to the much older men, mostly because the much older men are the only ones who can afford it.

But the FLDS... There's stuff going on there that's another thing entirely. You get the young girl older men scenario here, because the older men have often curried more favour. But the families don't always agree on the marriages. Usually the marriage has been arranged with the religious leader of the compound, who will force the family of the bride to give her up if they disagree with the marriage. It all depends on who has the power and favour. It's not neat at all, there aren't any protections for the family of the daughter, it's "I'm in charge here. I'm taking now."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 16, 2009 9:24 AM

BYTEMITE


Frem: I know the FLDS aren't dangerous, they're odd, they live among us, but the number of them who are dangerous compared to the occasional off-the-deep-end Mitchell has them not really registering on my threat-o-meter. Mostly they just drive around on lawnmowers with rifles slung across the front, or I'll see them other times in grocery stores in their pioneer get-ups. They're more of a problem internally, within their own community with all the abuses that go on then they are for the larger population.

The lawnmower thing is actually hilarious, yeah buddy, good luck aiming while on that thing or chasing anyone down. Guess it's slightly more stable than horses though.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 16, 2009 9:26 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Hee, hee, hee...the one thing you point out as different about the FLDS was arranged marriages. Ooops; in Afghanistan when I was there, and no doubt still in the rural areas, marriages weren't just "arranged", potential wives were PAID FOR in "dowry", and sometimes it was like an auction, brides being offered numerous fees by several potential husbands, as I described in my post. That the old man upped his price because he thought I was the potential bride is an example.

Also, young women are forced into marriage virtually always with older men, and have no say whatsoever in who they marry. NOT any longer the way things are done in urban Afghanistan (or at least not as much, I hope!), but previously, and I'd bet still in the villages...

Remember too that until recently women had no rights whatsoever and were forced to wear that horrid head-to-toe chadri in public, and could never be seen by any male except relatives. No, treatment of women under Islamic law, especially as interpreted by the Taliban, is far more despicable than the FLDS ever dreamed of.

I was sad to see the comparison, but recognized it. (By the way, I was a "dunked" Mormon in my teens--dropped it in shock when I discovered their racist policies!) The one thing different that I know of with Afghanistan is that the leader doesn't take advantage of the women in the same way as I've read about in cults. Women are chattel, for sure, but the concept of multiple wives and incest wasn't something I heard about from anyone I know, or I saw around me back then.

And I THINK the tenants of Islam are more, uh, "respectable" if you will, in that they don't preach the same kind of insanity as many cults, or teachings put forth by one crazy person; Islam is interpreted differently, admittedly, but the basic teachings of Islam are at the root everywhere.







I think something we need to remember is you cannot effect social change at gunpoint. It only lends credibility to anyone who is going to oppose you.

Now, if Afghanistan grows an economy, one that requires dealing with the outside world... you can do things like, " if you want this trade deal, lets talk about human rights, or religious freedom, or womens rights "

Having a foreign military, particularly one that isn't going to stay there for decades to come ( I hope ) try to dictate change like that is crazy.

The US is empowering the extremists, and my prediction... within two years after the inevitable pullout ANY government there will fall, irregardless of whatever money or aid gets pumped in. There was a window of opportunity, that ball was dropped, and now ALL of it is for nothing. Once credibility was lost, that was it.




Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists


Lets party like its 1939

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 16, 2009 9:41 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I have never actually read the Koran. But even if I did, there is the problem of translation and time which exists for all old texts. I have read several translations of the Tao which couldn't be more different. For example, one translation reads 'the superior man', the other 'the victorious general' - and the balance of the texts is geared to each interpretation.

My sense though is that there is a lot of cultural (archaic tribal) baggage that gets sold as religious; and historical (stoning - as in 'let he who is without sin ...') practice that has been taken literally instead of metaphorically.

The 'problem' if there is one may not be one of Islam.

As for the war itself, perhaps Obama doesn't want to leave a 'failed state' behind. As weak as it is, that is the only rationale I can think of to answer the question 'Why ?"

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 16, 2009 11:28 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
I think something we need to remember is you cannot effect social change at gunpoint.


Unfortunately, I must disagree with this, although not a lot - it's a damn piss poor way to do it, and it involves prettymuch killing EVERYONE who disagrees with you, which is a damned lot of folk usually and results in an epic slaughter.

Which has indeed happened historically in the middle east on a number of occasions.

But that's a road we shouldn't even be ON, much less travelling down, cause it leads to ugly places.

Imma share with you an excerpt from David Drakes: Cross the Stars
Available from the Baen Free Library here.
http://www.baen.com/library/0671578219/0671578219.htm
(Insert Shameless Plug for Baen Books here!)
Quote:

Aloud Pritchard said, "Well, I might disagree on moral grounds if I thought it would work, ah, madam. But since I never have known it to work in circumstances like yours on Tethys, I'll pretend to be a practical man and disagree on practical terms instead."

The tall woman paused in mid-stride as her brain correlated the words her ears had heard a moment before. She looked at the man who lounged at ease, smiling at her. "Major—" she began in a tone more diffident than that of her angry assurance an instant previous.

"Please," said Danny Pritchard. "That was Alois' little joke, I'm sure, when he announced I was coming. Mister Pritchard. Or Danny, which I'd prefer. But I'm not a soldier anymore."

Marilee sat down with the abruptness of a gun returning to battery. She laughed as she looked out the window through which she could see nothing but sky from her present low angle. "Well," she said, "Danny, I suppose you'd better explain that. I hadn't expected to hear from a mercenary that force doesn't accomplish anything."

"Ex-mercenary," Pritchard corrected. The smile was back. "And force accomplishes a lot of things. They just aren't the ones you want here. Bring in the Slammers and we kick ass for as long as you pay us. Six months, a year. And we kick ass even if the other side brings in mercs of their own—which they'll do—but that's not a problem, not if you've got us." Unit pride lasted even after the unit's work became a matter of distaste. Pride beamed now from Danny Pritchard's face, and his hand caressed a tank that only his mind could see.

"So," the man went on. He got up without thinking about the action because he was focused on plans, on possibilities. "There's what? Three hundred thousand people on Tethys?"

Marilee's eyes narrowed. "On the Council Islands, about. There's a lot more in little holdings on the unclaimed islands, but I don't think anyone can be sure of numbers."

"So," Pritchard repeated. The word was his equivalent of the Enter key when his mind was computing possibilities. "You want to kill fifty kay? Fifty thousand people, let's remember they're people for the moment."

"I don't want to kill anybody!" the woman snapped. She swung abruptly to her feet again. Her boots rapped on the inlaid floor over which her visitor's heels had glided unheard. "I don't even want to kill Bev Dyson. I grew up with him, after all, I . . . maybe he did kill my husband. But I don't want to know that for sure. And I don't want him killed."

"You see," said Danny Pritchard, as if he had not heard his companion expose a part of herself that she had not known existed, "if we go in quick and dirty, the only way that has a prayer of working is if we get them all. If we get everybody who opposes you, everybody related to them, everybody who called them master—everybody."

"They aren't all dangerous!" Marilee shouted. She turned to the wall of trophies and went on in nearly as loud a voice. "They aren't any of them dangerous, except maybe a few. What are you talking about?" She spun back to Pritchard.

The ex-soldier nodded in agreement. "They're not dangerous now, but they will be after the killing starts. Believe me—" he raised a hand to forestall another protest— "I've seen it often enough. Not all of them, but one in ten, one in a hundred. One in a thousand's enough when he blasts your car down over the ocean a year from now. You'll see. It changes people, the killing does. Once it starts, there's no way to stop it but all the way to the end. If you figure to still live here on Tethys."


"M—Danny!" the woman said. "I told you, I don't want killing. Why do you keep saying that?"

"What do you think the Slammers do, milady?" asked Danny Pritchard. His grin was wide as a demon's, as cruel as the muzzle of the guns he remembered using so well. "Work magic? We kill, and we're good at it, bloody good. You call the Slammers in to solve your problems here and you'll be able to cover the Port with the corpses. I guarantee it. I've done it, milady. In my time."

He was still grinning. Marilee Slade gasped and turned away. The blast-scarred skull of a knife-jaw was on the wall behind her. The yellowing skull was two meters along the line of the teeth, a record even for the days of the Settlement when the creature had savaged a guard tower and three men. For a moment, the knife-jaw looked less ruthless than did the man who had seemed so mild until he began describing options.

"All right, Mister Pritchard," Marilee said to her clenched hands. "My son says we're better off letting the law take its course, even when that course is against us. I—I don't think I believe that. I know Tom's death wasn't, wasn't chance. But I didn't mean to bring in an army, either, even without what you just said. I suppose we'll let Bev have his way, then, and—hope for the best."

She shook herself. "I'm sorry," she said. "I didn't mean to be ungracious. Will you have refreshments? A stim cone?" She stepped toward the refrigerated cart resting against a sidewall.

"No, I'm fine," said Danny Pritchard. His face had loosened from its rictus. Now he sat again in the chair from which thought had propelled him. "You see," he continued mildly, "using the Slammers on your problem is like settling a tank on a nut to crack it. I . . . I'm not the sort to say, roll over and play dead to injustice. Even when injustice has the law behind it. You were hoping Don would come home. It's for him—and for me and for the Colonel, there's a lot of us who owe Don—it's for him I came here. We pay our debts.


You go that route, that's what it costs.

Never forget it.

-Frem

There always has to be a price.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 16, 2009 4:58 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Gino:
Quote:

if Afghanistan grows an economy, one that requires dealing with the outside world... you can do things like, " if you want this trade deal, lets talk about human rights, or religious freedom, or womens rights "
Right on, and oh, don't I wish. But I'm afraid that's a loooong time in the future, if at all. They are one of the poorest nations on earth.

Rue:
Quote:

My sense though is that there is a lot of cultural (archaic tribal) baggage that gets sold as religious; and historical (stoning - as in 'let he who is without sin ...') practice that has been taken literally instead of metaphorically.
You nailed it...something which all religions have in common, actually...just thinking of "Christianity" and homosexuality, for one teeeny example...




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 17, 2009 6:47 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

Having a foreign military, particularly one that isn't going to stay there for decades to come ( I hope ) try to dictate change like that is crazy.

The US is empowering the extremists, and my prediction... within two years after the inevitable pullout ANY government there will fall, irregardless of whatever money or aid gets pumped in. There was a window of opportunity, that ball was dropped, and now ALL of it is for nothing. Once credibility was lost, that was it.



The government will likely fall and all of those "trained" fighters will then become Taliban, with their training and their weapons... that we paid for. FAIL

The Taliban still pays more than the Afghan army recruiters do, so the Afghan army is beginning to be populated with the most desperate citizens, the ones the Taliban do not want. FAIL

And how is this army that only holds a rifle so it can eat going to react to the first tight spot? FAIL

Many of our surge troops won't make it to to their destinations according to the US military, within the 18 month timeframe. FAIL

We have just told the Afghan people that we're not staying. FAIL

If that message was not clear enough to them then the Taliban will be happy to make it clearer. Our gift to the Taliban. FAIL

How much is being spent on this when we need health care, etc.? FAIL

Troops/civilians die for nothing. FAIL FAIL FAIL

I think Obama was seduced by McChrystal. He's an impressive general with an impressive resume. For someone who is as much about compromise and connecting both sides as Obama was when he came into office, it makes sense that he would trust/defer to him with this. Unfortunately, he also shortened the time frame needed for McChrystal's plans to really work. FAIL

This sickens/frustrates me as much as health care.



Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 17, 2009 9:36 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Bah, his mistake was listening to McChrystal in the first place, the guys a monster - seriously, they don't give those stars out for humanitarian effort, in order to get that first one, you prettymuch gotta do something SO horrific that your loyalty to The Powers That Be can no longer be questioned.
As I said, look into how Patton and MacArthur got theirs, if you wanna know...

Even so, a man capable of horrible things, is also a man capable of great things, see also General Smedley Butler, Eisenhower, et al.

Seriously, he shoulda listened to Gates, who was nonpolitical and would at least TRY to do a halfway decent job of things even when handed a ridiculous and impossible task, instead of a loon like McChrystal, who thinks he's fighting the Crusades all over again, complete with a racist and religious intolerance which poisons the whole goddamn effort from the top down.

Besides which, his arrogance reminds me of two other military officers with rather interesting histories, General Wesley Clark, who's ego nearly started WW III - and mind you I got a blow by blow of THAT mess from the folks I was shipping cookies to bribe the locals with within days of it's happening, before the whitewash and coverup...

And Col Mike Steele, the idiot responsible for the disastrous and ill planned operation* shown in the movie Blackhawk Down, and continues his asshattery in service to this day, with lots of other nasty business in Iraq.

So, hell no, I wouldn't listen to a damn thing McChrystal had to say cause that line of thinking and tactical doctrine hasn't worked in thirty fuckin years, and it ain't gonna work now.


*Seriously - it was IDIOTIC to go showboating and use choppers in an urban environment in a fashion that required them to hover in place at what amounted to point blank range for guerilla/militia forces, presenting a tempting (and damned expensive, resource, financially and casualty-wise) shot they could neither resist nor miss - hollywood generalship at it's finest, hoorah and all that bullshit - when they shoulda used a fuckin local TRUCK and done a classic infiltration strike, but no... mister lets buck for promotion hadda go showboating with it, grrr.

-Frem

There always has to be a price.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, December 17, 2009 3:11 PM

CITIZEN


Darling: A German spy is giving away every one of our battle plans.

Melchett: You look surprised, Blackadder.

Blackadder: I certainly am sir. I didn't realize we had any battle plans.

Melchett: Of course we've got plans! How else do you think our battles are directed?

Blackadder: Our battles are directed, sir?

Melchett: Of course they are. Directed accoring to the grand plan.

Blackadder: Oh I see. And would that be the plan to continue with total slaughter until everybody's dead except Field Marshal Haig, Lady Haig, and their tortoise, Alan?



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, December 18, 2009 2:54 PM

DREAMTROVE


I think "FAIL" is our plan. Anyone care to add an image to that ;)

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, December 18, 2009 3:08 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I think "FAIL" is our plan. Anyone care to add an image to that ;)













Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists


Lets party like its 1939

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, December 18, 2009 4:09 PM

DREAMTROVE


Gino

Thanks, very well done.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, December 18, 2009 8:22 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I think "FAIL" is our plan. Anyone care to add an image to that ;)




"FAIL" is the ultimate endgoal, yes - but in the meantime, we're supposed to put up a good show of trying our very hardest to NOT fail. We're not supposed to "win", mind you (because nobody can even begin to describe what a "win" would consist of, other than mealy-mouthed mumblings of soundbites and catchphrases of the kind Wulfie is so damned fond of - things like "freedom" and "democracy") - we're just not supposed to fail YET. Push it off 'til "the next guy" gets the job, and call it a success in the interim. And Dubya actually laid that out in plain English, and barely even fucked it up when he tried to speak it out loud.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, December 19, 2009 8:37 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Just to add; Gino's second cartoon could add a LOT more "empires" who have invaded, "conquered" Afghanistan and in the end failed and left. History would leave you surprised, if you know them all.

I do love the social commentary of Blackadder, one of the main reason I loved the show.

I'm changing the title (since it was changed--rightfully--from my version of the original title and apparently it was misspelled somewhere along the way?) to be more accurate, because the Afghan's didn't begin the war...



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, December 20, 2009 10:57 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Quote:

If you already *know* all the answers , why are you still raising the questions ? Just looking for another opportunity to beat your gums , so to speak ?
Gawd, OTB, you’re a real asshole, aren’t you?? I quite clearly said I don’t know all the answers, and I wasn’t asking any questions…answered Byte’s question to the best of my ability, and started this out by saying “Okay, here's a new thread where we can rant and rave and offer our opinions of the war itself. What does any of that have to do with your asinine statement? Nothing, obviously. What thread were YOU reading? You’re strange. And nasty.




Actually , Niki , THIS is what you said :

Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
...Most of us don't wonder, we already know the answer to that, just as we do to the reasons for the war in Iraq. I believe DT enumerated it quite clearly in another post, and I agree with 3 out of his 4 conclusions.




You're transferring and projecting again...If you can't play nice , it's no wonder you suffered a beat-down on the other board...Plainly , you had it coming .

Don't be strange and nasty here , be-yotch ! Go get your meds adjusted and chill out...

Maybe then you'll have something interesting to say...Maybe...

Now , back on topic...

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, December 20, 2009 11:06 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I think "FAIL" is our plan. Anyone care to add an image to that ;)




"FAIL" is the ultimate endgoal, yes - but in the meantime, we're supposed to put up a good show of trying our very hardest to NOT fail. We're not supposed to "win", mind you (because nobody can even begin to describe what a "win" would consist of, other than mealy-mouthed mumblings of soundbites and catchphrases of the kind Wulfie is so damned fond of - things like "freedom" and "democracy") - we're just not supposed to fail YET. Push it off 'til "the next guy" gets the job, and call it a success in the interim. And Dubya actually laid that out in plain doublespeak Ingsoc...

Mike



Straight outta the 1984 playbook again , ain't it ?


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, December 20, 2009 11:11 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


OTB, please don't change the title of the thread. If you have something to say, say it IN the thread.




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, December 20, 2009 11:17 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
OTB, please don't change the title of the thread. If you have something to say, say it IN the thread.




Start respecting others , as well as your own 'rules'...

In other words , don't disparage anyone unless you'd like it to happen to you...Again...

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, December 20, 2009 12:02 PM

FREMDFIRMA


This is why no one listens to you even when you have a point, Out2B.

Being an ass because you can be an ass buys ya nothin, and earning the respect of others is key in getting them to listen to you - plus it's a two way street, you want some, you'd damn well better be giving some, and you ain't.

So where does that leave you ?

-F

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, December 20, 2009 12:46 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by out2theblack:
Start respecting others


I happen to believe everyone deserves respect until they lose it. This whole idea that people have to earn your respect is self-indulgent bullshit. Who the fuck are you to expect others to have to earn your respect?

A person deserves respect because, but they can work to lose it.

And you do work very hard O2B. Niki has been nothing but respectful to everyone, as far as I can see. You on the other hand, are a constant and unremitting cunt. You have no right to use the term respect, because you clearly have none for anyone.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, December 20, 2009 1:39 PM

DREAMTROVE


Nature is chaos. This forum has laws like nature has laws, not like a country. We already agreed that ettiquette in this case was to not obcure the meaning of the thread title. I missed the specific change. Personal attacks on any side are uncalled for. I think we all agreed on that. I see a lot of it here.

I personally changed the thread title as anyone can see, to what it is now, a long time ago, on my first post, because I thought this more clearly reflected the topic, and I wasn't feeling particularly clever or in appreciation of cleverness, I just wanted a differentiation between discussions about Afghanistan and those specifically about the war.


"It does not matter whether the war is actually happening, and, since no decisive victory is possible, it does not matter whether the war is going well or badly. All that is needed is that a state of war should exist.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, December 20, 2009 1:44 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Personal attacks on any side are uncalled for. I think we all agreed on that. I see a lot of it here.


I 100% agree. However: Niki IMHO is perhaps one of the most respectful posters about here. Hell more respectful than me. So when one of the least respectful starts shouting about respect at the most respectful, I can't help but say something.

Colour me imperfect

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, December 20, 2009 5:58 PM

GINOBIFFARONI






Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists


Lets party like its 1939

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, December 20, 2009 9:07 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yes; way back at the top, I had started the thread with a title which the thread on Afghan culture was changed to: "Af-gun-istan". DT was kind enough to change it to "Afghan War", which is more appropriate. Then I changed it this last time to "War in Afghanistan" because, as I said, it's not the AFGHAN war, they didn't start it, it's our war in Afghanistan.

And thank you for your kind words, Citizen. But to say I have been nothing but respectful is something I DEFINITELY don't deserve; you've experienced my lack of respect yourself, so you know that's not true. I fail at self-control far more than I succeed, I'm afraid; tho' I do TRY to be mindful and not let my feelings deprive the conversation of respect. Which is NOT meant to be any kind of "holier than thou" comment...I know myself, I know I screw up, I'm just saying I try.



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, December 20, 2009 11:41 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:


And thank you for your kind words, Citizen. But to say I have been nothing but respectful is something I DEFINITELY don't deserve; you've experienced my lack of respect yourself, so you know that's not true. I fail at self-control far more than I succeed, I'm afraid; tho' I do TRY to be mindful and not let my feelings deprive the conversation of respect.


Aye, the watch word was as far as I can see. It's all relative, and the trying is the worthiest part.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, December 21, 2009 8:32 AM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
This is why no one listens to you even when you have a point, Out2B.

Being an ass because you can be an ass buys ya nothin, and earning the respect of others is key in getting them to listen to you - plus it's a two way street, you want some, you'd damn well better be giving some, and you ain't.

So where does that leave you ?

-F



Still at the top of the game , discussion-wise...

Now , you've devolved your input to the point of irrelevance...I had expected and hoped for better from you , because you're capable of it...

However , you have once again happened late-ly into the scene of the party , and apparently have no awareness of what has gone before...

Just a quick refresher , now that you've taken the mad-dog ears of someone else's argument :

Quote:

Originally posted by out2theblack:
Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Niki

Thanks, and good idea.

I'm going to change the title. I skipped this thread on the first pass because I assumed it was PN (sorry John, you post more than I have time to read.)

ETA: I also changed to "Afghan" assuming the greater meaning to include the Pashtun of Pakistan and any related populations which might get caught up in this conflict.



For Folk permaybehaps wondering about the motive for this present war in AFbamaScam , check out this google search result :

http://www.google.com/search?q=Cheney+pipeline+Afghanistan&sourceid=ie
7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8


Interesting reading , should hold Folk for a few ticks...Poly-ticks...Many bloodsuckers...



Quote:

Originally posted by out2theblack:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
...Most of us don't wonder, we already know the answer to that, just as we do to the reasons for the war in Iraq. I believe DT enumerated it quite clearly in another post, and I agree with 3 out of his 4 conclusions.




I happen to agree with more than 75% of DT's conclusions in this matter...

Isn't the point of discussion to educate and inform ?

If you already *know* all the answers , why are you still raising the questions ? Just looking for another opportunity to beat your gums , so to speak ?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/can-the-americans-win-a-l
and-war-in-afghanistan-670448.html


Sunday, 23 September 2001

' "We do deserts, we don't do mountains," said Colin Powell when he was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff as the Balkans' conflict erupted. '

http://www.ringnebula.com/Oil/Timeline.htm

Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Quote:

If you already *know* all the answers , why are you still raising the questions ? Just looking for another opportunity to beat your gums , so to speak ?


Gawd, OTB, you’re a real asshole, aren’t you?? I quite clearly said I don’t know all the answers, and I wasn’t asking any questions…answered Byte’s question to the best of my ability, and started this out by saying “Okay, here's a new thread where we can rant and rave and offer our opinions of the war itself. What does any of that have to do with your asinine statement? Nothing, obviously. What thread were YOU reading? You’re strange. And nasty.


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by out2theblack:
Start respecting others


I happen to believe everyone deserves respect until they lose it. This whole idea that people have to earn your respect is self-indulgent bullshit. Who the fuck are you to expect others to have to earn your respect?

A person deserves respect because, but they can work to lose it.

And you do work very hard O2B. Niki has been nothing but respectful to everyone, as far as I can see. You on the other hand, are a constant and unremitting cunt. You have no right to use the term respect, because you clearly have none for anyone.



Once again , despite the Vile Comments from Niki and her top-of-the-Go*Se partner-in-crime , an effort is made to go back on topic...
Cit would never say to my face the sort of things he indulges in here...Not more than once , that is...Coward...Probably has never seen one of those 'c-word' things to which one supposes he meant to refer...

Now , if you would please , Frem , explain once again how it was your impression that I was being an 'ass' , exactly ?

Seems that I don't employ the overtly vile language and tactics of the opposition...

That's how one knows that they're beaten; they begin taking to such measures without just cause...

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 1:47 PM

BYTEMITE


Okay, just bumping this to ask another question. I was looking up some information on the Afghanistan War today, and I read that Al Qaeda were trained/associated with the Russians, rather than having fought the Russians, while the CIA trained counterparts in the proxy war were the Mujahideen.

Wikipedia ref:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen

Is this right?

And that when the Mujahideen took Kabul and couldn't establish a stable government, the Taliban rose to challenge them?

But I'd heard Al Qaeda was established by the CIA.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 2:30 PM

DREAMTROVE


Byte

Not quite.

The Mujahideen is a militant organization, or rather, a group of them. Each country has its own, and the character of each can be radically different.

Al Qaeda would be best qualified as a charity. It's an international communication network for the distribution of goods and services by charitable donors to recipients. Like Hezbollah, upon which it was modeled, by Osama bin Laden, it supports military resistance fighters as well as hospitals, schools and other projects throughout the muslim world.

It's a popular misconception, popularized by the western media, that Al Qaeda is a terrorist organization, though, of course, it has ties to terrorism, it has ties to lots of things. One thing it isn't is a military force in its own right.

The Afghan Mujahideen has very close ties to Al Qaeda since Osama had joined the AM before creating Al Qaeda. AQ and HzB are actually based on the internet, in their structure, for true irony.

The "who supports whom" speculation always flies, but the general assumption is that the US supported the Mujahideen, and post-communist Russia supports the Taliban, which is majorly opposed by China. Both the US and Russia IIRC have supported the Northern Alliance, but given the changing membership I'm not sure that's proof of anything.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 3:46 PM

FREMDFIRMA



And of course, with most of the militants/insurgents/whatever you wanna call em, there's a LOT of "So, who's side are we on THIS week ?" kind of philosophy about it, because they mostly wanna be left alone, and anyone agressing on them tends to get shot at.

People forget just how bloody territorial these folk are, most especially the Pashtun, who will absolutely go freakin berserk chasing you off their turf, but stop right at the line, laugh and go home once they have done so - it's a whole DIFFERENT mindset, and for the most part the reason that whole fight em over there bullshit doesn't fly with me cause most of em truly do not care one whit what happens outside their own turf.

Historically it's a bad idea to continue pursuit past that anyways because there's always some other tribe ready to roll in and take over while all your warriors are busy on a wild goose chase, so there's a certain amount of "intertia" - these guys do NOT like to give up home field advantage, which is why the more mobile forces like the northern alliance are usually outcasts or younger folk who ran off looking for adventure.

Most folk have barely even the lightest grasp of the mindset we're dealing with there, and for a fact our military command has not a damn clue, far less than even some of the brighter ground pounders we got on site - one of whom was relating to me how they deliberately provoked a "Red on Red" fire incident to sweep up a group who was planting IEDs by provoking another group to attack after his team moved one of the IEDs and that second group wandered into it, and knowing who to blame, unlike our troops, they went after em, and our guys followed them up, and made some new friends that way - not EVERY troop we got is a complete dumbass, but many of em are, yeah.

-F

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Elections; 2024
Thu, March 28, 2024 09:39 - 2070 posts
Salon: NBC's Ronna blunder: A failed attempt to appeal to MAGA voters — except they hate her too
Thu, March 28, 2024 07:04 - 1 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Thu, March 28, 2024 05:27 - 6154 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Thu, March 28, 2024 02:07 - 3408 posts
Russian losses in Ukraine
Wed, March 27, 2024 23:21 - 987 posts
human actions, global climate change, global human solutions
Wed, March 27, 2024 15:03 - 824 posts
NBC News: Behind the scenes, Biden has grown angry and anxious about re-election effort
Wed, March 27, 2024 14:58 - 2 posts
BUILD BACK BETTER!
Wed, March 27, 2024 14:45 - 5 posts
RFK Jr. Destroys His Candidacy With VP Pick?
Wed, March 27, 2024 11:59 - 16 posts
Russia says 60 dead, 145 injured in concert hall raid; Islamic State group claims responsibility
Wed, March 27, 2024 10:57 - 49 posts
Ha. Haha! HAHA! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!
Tue, March 26, 2024 21:26 - 1 posts
You can't take the sky from me, a tribute to Firefly
Tue, March 26, 2024 16:26 - 293 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL