REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Coming to America. Unless we stop the madness.

POSTED BY: WULFENSTAR
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 00:40
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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 8:47 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:12 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Pathetic application of the "law". I'd have done the same, tho' perhaps not to that extent, were it me.

Sometimes our laws fail us, and our insistence on the letter of them in the face of the facts might well seem confusing to many...certainly would make anyone not from earth scratch their heads!

But "coming to America"?? Get real, Wulf!




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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:25 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Same law currently exists in USA. Lots of Americans go on trial for shooting burglers in their yard.

You must drag them back into your house before you... Dead men can't testify against you in court.

Guns are banned in UK BTW. So are steak knives. Soon cricket bats will be banned too.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:38 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Pathetic application of the "law". I'd have done the same, tho' perhaps not to that extent, were it me."

Speak clearly, Niki.

Are you saying that you would fight tooth and nail to defend your family, and loved ones.... or that you would have given the same sentence to the one who did?

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:41 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sorry...the former. Thought my remarks made that clear, should have clarified it. In the heat of the moment, having experienced fear like that, I'd probably lash out beyond stopping the perp as well.

NOT the other! It gauls me that robbers who are injured during a robbery can sue the person they were robbing...just such a diversion from common sense it makes me rail even more about the litigiousness of our society!




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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:43 AM

BYTEMITE


I'm going to bring up race here, because Wulf didn't.

Anyone notice the name of this guy? Speculations on how this guy became a millionaire aside, could THAT be the real reason that he's being jailed?

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:46 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Very well then.

So, would you deny those defending their family, the tools necessary to do so?

And, would you say that those attempting harm to you and yours deserve pity and respect AT THE TIME of their offense?

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:47 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"I'm going to bring up race here, because Wulf didn't."

Nice. Stay classy, Byte.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:51 AM

BYTEMITE


I know, weird, huh? I think you did make a good effort about not bringing up race yourself, and I think I know why you decided to show that restraint here, but this may be a case where race is very much an important consideration. Who is this judge? What's his history of sentencing, and are there any patterns?

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:55 AM

BYTEMITE

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:58 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yes, I noticed the race aspect too. I think it's a valid question; whatever the judge's background, the fear of "other" right now prejudices many people. But at the same time, such a thing could happen to anyone, the way our laws are adjudicated.
Quote:

would you deny those defending their family, the tools necessary to do so?
If that's a reference to guns, I don't believe guns entered into this situation. But no, I wouldn't deny anyone guns to protect themselves and their families; I've said this before.
Quote:

would you say that those attempting harm to you and yours deserve pity and respect AT THE TIME of their offense?
Anyone attempting harm to anyone don't get or deserve my respect in any situation. They deserve my pity at all times; but I've said quite clearly that I would act in defense of myself or others if someone attacked. Doesn't mean I would demonize them or wouldn't pity them or acknowledge their humanity. In the moment, I'd act. But I wouldn't take pride in doing so and my anger wouldn't obscure the fact that I pity them, I just wouldn't feel the pity at the time of an attack. Does that answer your questions?





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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:00 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Does that answer your questions?"

Yes it does. And I have no idea if this means anything to you, but my respect for you has grown.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:04 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Salem, who forced Hussain's wife and three children to lie on the floor, was given a two-year supervision order. (Salem) has 54 previous convictions.


o.0 Okay, now this mercy for the robber is making less and less sense here. I definitely think there's something more than meets the eye with the treatment of these two victims.

No, I don't think that the robber "deserved" brain damage and this doesn't actually sound like self defense to me, but this is a crazy sentence. "Grievous bodily harm with intent?" This was an act of passion, clearly, don't give me "pre-calculated" bullshit.

The other problem I notice is that the legal UK definition of self-defense appears to be poorly defined. The article says this:

Quote:

What is the law on defending your home?

If you use force which is 'not excessive' against burglars then the law is on your side.

Last year's Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill contained clauses to protect people from prosecution if they act instinctively and out of fear for their safety.

Justice Secretary Jack Straw said:

'Law-abiding citizens should not be put off tackling criminals by fear of excessive investigation.

'For a passer-by witnessing a street crime or a householder faced with a burglar, we are reassuring them that if they use force which is not excessive or disproportionate, the law really is behind them.'




If you don't know what you are and aren't allowed to do in self-defense, you could theoretically be charged for any action taken to interfere with an attack on your person, family, or livelyhood or for interfering with a crime in progress.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:14 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"If you don't know what you are and aren't allowed to do in self-defense, you could theoretically be charged for any action taken to interfere with an attack on your person, family, or livelyhood or for interfering with a crime in progress."

True.

But explicitly defining what you can and can't do in self-defense doesnt work either.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:15 AM

BYTEMITE


I think there's something about this Waled Salem. Who are his relatives? He's had 54 convictions and is a "career criminal" but has been spared prison every time.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:16 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Turning the light of investigation to the criminal ignores the true injustice of this.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:19 AM

BYTEMITE


Here's another case this judge tried: http://www.thisisscunthorpe.co.uk/news/Man-cleared-sex-offences-girl/a
rticle-637331-detail/article.html


Lack of evidence, possibly DESTROYED evidence, and all the usual blarney used to discredit youths with legitimate complaints... Yep, something is wrong here, both with Waled AND this judge.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:21 AM

BYTEMITE


Ah. You think I'm getting out of hand trying to get to the bottom of what were the judge's real motivations here. You are more interested in the issue.

I'll stop then.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:28 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Ah. You think I'm getting out of hand trying to get to the bottom of what were the judge's real motivations here. You are more interested in the issue."

No I just believe that you would never be able to get "to the bottom of the judges real motivations".

Words are meaningless, only actions count.

What has this judge done? How is he allowed to do so?

THAT is the issue.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:30 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Moreso, how can he be allowed to say that because a victim, acting in self-defense (using violence), is now a "criminal"?

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:31 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Oh c'mon man!

THINK!

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 11:31 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Mr Hussain made a break for freedom by throwing a coffee table at his attackers. He and Tokeer chased the gang and brought Salem to the ground in a front garden.

Reading Crown Court heard how Mr Hussain and his brother then beat Salem while he lay on the ground, using a cricket bat, a pole and a hockey stick - leaving him with a fractured skull and brain damage following the 'sustained' attack.

Would not have jailed Mr Hussain because people who face violent attack are often jangled on adrenaline and don't know when to stop. But the better action would be to hold Salem for the police.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 11:33 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


lol

AND IM THE ONE WHO LIKES COMIC BOOKS?

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 1:07 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:

I'm going to bring up race here, because Wulf didn't.

Anyone notice the name of this guy? Speculations on how this guy became a millionaire aside, could THAT be the real reason that he's being jailed?



Roger that.

But the robber's name was Salem, which is also Arabic, since that's the neighborhood they both live in.

Some folks say shoot, shovel and STFU.

Texas: Joe Horn shot and killed two burglars in his yard, arrested for murder, grand jury refused to indict
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_shooting_controversy

Alabama: Couple Make Burglar Clean Up at Gunpoint
www.newsvine.com/_news/2007/10/18/1034676-couple-make-burglar-clean-up
-at-gunpoint

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 1:12 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Jailing him, Judge John Reddihough said some members of the public would think that 56-year-old Salem 'deserved what happened to him' and that Mr Hussain 'should not have been prosecuted'.
But had he spared Mr Hussain jail, the judge said, the 'rule of law' would collapse.
He said: 'If persons were permitted to take the law into their own hands and inflict their own instant and violent punishment on an apprehended offender rather than letting the criminal justice system take its course, then the rule of law and our system of criminal justice, which are hallmarks of a civilised society, would collapse.'

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1235782/Millionaire-Munir-Hussain-fou
ght-knife-wielding-burglar-jailed-intruder-let-off.html



Famous last words of a Nazi Police State dictatorship.

Brit cops and judges refused to indict the cops who arrested an unarmed Brazilian guy going to work on a train, held him down, and shot him 10 times in the head at point-blank range.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5186050.stm

Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:

But the better action would be to hold Salem for the police.



But if police, skools and news corps taught folks the lawful way to make a citizen's arrest, the entire Police State would go bankrupt.

That's why I keep handcuffs beside my firearms, clubs, knives, taser and mace. Best to keep them locked in a safe, to prevent burglers from using them against you. Best to have a safe with combo lock, no key.



When you see torture glorified on BTVS, Angel, FF, Dollhouse, etc, realize that's brainwashing you to react that way if you ever find yourself in a situation like this guy, with your family tied up and fearing for your lives, or a soldier in combat, or a cop during a chase and arrest. The correct response is to remain ice cold like a psychopath, in order to think clearly about legal procedure to CYA.

That's why psychopaths rule the planet and run all govts and police agencies, because they think clearly without emotion under pressure.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 1:22 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
No, I don't think that the robber "deserved" brain damage and this doesn't actually sound like self defense to me, but this is a crazy sentence. "Grievous bodily harm with intent?" This was an act of passion, clearly, don't give me "pre-calculated" bullshit.


It's nothing to do with pre-calculation. It's whether he intended to cause grievous bodily harm, or if the injuries were an accident. He wanted to cause serious injury, and did, therefore GBH with intent.

Quote:



If you don't know what you are and aren't allowed to do in self-defense, you could theoretically be charged for any action taken to interfere with an attack on your person, family, or livelyhood or for interfering with a crime in progress.


Hardly a relevant conclusion from the source material.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 1:42 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

He wanted to cause serious injury, and did, therefore GBH with intent.


Granted, the injuries weren't an accident, but I just don't see the "with intent" part. Sounds to me like an adrenaline rush. Now, sometimes you can think clearly enough during an adrenaline rush to think "I am SO going to fuck this guy up," but this guy's history doesn't suggest that's something that he would consciously be thinking of. And perhaps something could be argued about the man's rational state in asking the brother to come over to help, which may not speak of high emotionality, but it also doesn't mean that the intention in doing so was to gang up on the robber and beat him into submission. Most likely case is, the man's son ran over to the brothers, said, help, we're being robbed and they tied us up, and the brother acted according to the threat he thought he would encounter.

I don't think we can know whether he intended to cause the guy brain damage, or whether Hassein was hitting the guy in an andrenalin charged state when his brother came over, and the brother just joined in not knowing how else to help.

Which is why I disagree with the charge. I don't think we can discern the motive here, not unless a LOT more came out in the trial than is being reported.

Also makes me wonder about this guy's neighbors... Supposedly they were the only witnesses. Sometimes gossipy neighbors or neighbors who don't like a person may make a heavily biased testimony against the person during a trial.

Though I still think the problem here is something to do with the judge and the criminal.

Quote:

Hardly a relevant conclusion from the source material.


Then apparently you were more informed by the provided information than I was, or possibly more familiar with the laws, because I didn't see much information at all in the source about what constitutes legal self-defense and crime intervention. Perhaps British citizens are more informed about their legal rights and legal definitions of self-defense through other media, but I certainly didn't see it HERE, and I was merely stating, a lack of a clear definition could be a dangerous legal precedent.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 2:00 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Roger that.

But the robber's name was Salem, which is also Arabic, since that's the neighborhood they both live in.



I was wondering about that, was trying to look up anything I could find on "Waled Salem UK." Still, it might not be an obvious reason for the apparent favouritism. Something tells me someone doesn't like this guy, Hassein. Something that makes me wonder is Waled Salem is some corporate spy /hit-man of some sort, and if he was hired to do this robbery.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 2:28 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:

He wanted to cause serious injury, and did, therefore GBH with intent.


Granted, the injuries weren't an accident, but I just don't see the "with intent" part.


Because it wasn't an accident. Adrenaline rush or not, his actions were intended. Hence intent. Any physical confrontation involves adrenaline, so your objection, would mean there would be no "with intent" in any circumstance.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:

Hardly a relevant conclusion from the source material.


Then apparently you were more informed by the provided information than I was, or possibly more familiar with the laws, because I didn't see much information at all in the source about what constitutes legal self-defense and crime intervention. Perhaps British citizens are more informed about their legal rights and legal definitions of self-defense through other media, but I certainly didn't see it HERE, and I was merely stating, a lack of a clear definition could be a dangerous legal precedent.


You've lifted that quote from the daily mail, where this whole topic comes from. Generally if the Daily mail says something, it's bullshit. Think Fox news, but overtly racist and constantly babbling on about how much better it would be if Diana were still alive. Why on earth would you think that some cutout from a tabloid newspaper would have any bearing on anything?

When I first saw this, I thought "hell if that's true that's insane". But then I saw it was published in the daily mail, so clearly it's mostly lies. It took exactly five seconds to find that actually, this is a pretty solid conviction.

This from a real newspaper:
Quote:

Hussain, 53, made an escape after throwing a coffee table and enlisted his brother Tokeer, 35, in chasing the offenders down the street in High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, bringing one of them to the ground.

What followed was described in Reading Crown Court as self-defence that went too far. Walid Salem, one of the intruders, suffered a permanent brain injury after he was struck with a cricket bat so hard that it broke into three pieces. Neighbours saw several men beating Salem with weapons, including a metal pole.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6956044.ece
So basically they chased them down the street, threw one of them to the ground and battered him to the point of brain damage? They were running away on the street, that is not self-defence, that is revenge. Self defence ends when the assailant runs away, self defence is to stop them harming you, not to vent your anger that they dared to threaten you. Self defence is never chasing after someone running away and battering them until you break a cricket bat into three pieces.

Maybe you can explain how chasing after someone running away and then beating them while they're on the ground constitutes "self-defence"?

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 3:01 PM

BYTEMITE


I never said it WAS self-defense, if you look up above. I said I disagreed about "with intent."

And no, that was not at all what I was saying about adrenaline. The point is context. Yes, if you're yelling at someone in an argument, you secrete a bit of adrenalin in preparation for a fight that may or may not happen. That is far different from finding intruders in your own home, being threatened, accosted, tied up, and most importantly, having your FAMILY threatened.

Ever seen a bear when its cubs are in danger? It's not pretty. The bear can't really be held accountable for its actions in an enraged/terrified state. Can people? That's the question here. And I think this is blurry. I think it's very difficult to say just how rational Hassein was at the time. He THREW A COFFEE TABLE AT THESE PEOPLE. I don't know how heavy the coffee table was, but that sounds to me like it was on the "berserk" side of the adrenalin spectrum.

Your much better more official newspaper, I notice, also doesn't clearly delineate what self-defense is. My complaint stands.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 3:02 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


I think the difference here is between intent and pre mediation

He may have intended to cause injury

but he did not plan to cause it ( as in an ambush, etc )



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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 3:36 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
I never said it WAS self-defense, if you look up above. I said I disagreed about "with intent."


And I've already explained the intent part. Twice.
Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
And no, that was not at all what I was saying about adrenaline. The point is context. Yes, if you're yelling at someone in an argument, you secrete a bit of adrenalin in preparation for a fight that may or may not happen.


Not really. You were saying that Adrenaline suddenly means there can't be intent to cause harm. Bullshit. If you're hitting someone with a cricket bat you are intending them harm, regardless of the amount of adrenaline in your system. Its not about consciously making decisions, it's not GBH with conscious intent.
Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
That is far different from finding intruders in your own home, being threatened, accosted, tied up, and most importantly, having your FAMILY threatened.


And chasing someone down on the street and beating them half to death is far from an excusable action, under self-defence or "I was really really angry".
Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Can people? That's the question here. And I think this is blurry.


Can people be held accountable for their actions? Erm yes. Can actions be excused under certain circumstances? Again yes. Do any reasonable excuses for his actions in this case? No, not really.
Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
I think it's very difficult to say just how rational Hassein was at the time. He THREW A COFFEE TABLE AT THESE PEOPLE. I don't know how heavy the coffee table was, but that sounds to me like it was on the "berserk" side of the adrenalin spectrum.


Maybe he should have tried for a temporary insanity plea then? Except his solicitor probably wouldn't have done that, because being pissed off isn't generally an acceptable defence.

I don't know why you seem to feel the need to shout stuff about coffee tables at me like it means anything. What the hell sort of coffee tables do you have over there? Here they're small pieces of furniture, the sort of thing a child could hurl if they wanted too. You don't need superhuman strength to start twirling them about. Not that going berserk is any sort of defence. Being really really angry and really wanting to hurt someone is generally taken as motive not defence.
Quote:


Your much better more official newspaper, I notice, also doesn't clearly delineate what self-defense is. My complaint stands.


Wow, so you're trying to dismiss the times while clinging to pronouncements by the daily fascist? Yeah good luck with that.

Your complaint hasn't stood at all, and it certainly doesn't still stand. I can't begin to even see the thought process behind thinking points of law aren't clarified if they're not strung out in bullet points in the tabloids.

I read an article in the New York times the other day, and they didn't mention anything about any laws. So clearly there are no laws in the US right? Since a US newspaper didn't enumerate all laws in handy bullet points, that must mean there are no laws in the US! That's pretty much your complaint right there.

Your complaint, and opinion, might have a chance of standing if you bothered to inform either one, rather than just letting the daily mail spoon feed you far right outrage, and not bothering to look up anything much further than that. For instance, before making the statement that the Times hasn't said anything about self defence, you might have made sure that was actually the case.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/columnists/article2
581201.ece

They even speak on the subject of this case:
Quote:

If, having knocked an intruder unconscious, you then battered him as a punishment, you’d be acting with gratuitous force and could be prosecuted.


or this:
http://www.protectingyourself.co.uk/self-defence-law.html
this:
http://www.crimereduction.homeoffice.gov.uk/burglary/burglaryminisite0
9.htm

this:
http://www.bsdgb.co.uk/index.php?Information:The_Law_Relating_to_Self_
Defence


Why you think some point of UK law isn't clarified because someone didn't spoon feed you, a non-UK citizen, I don't know. Your complaint stands as nothing save an indictment against your willingness to actually know what you're talking about before sounding off.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 3:55 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Being really really angry and really wanting to hurt someone is generally taken as motive not defence.
Good point.

Still, having been very jittery one day after being broken into the day before, I nearly shot someone... and since I was using a 12-gauge shotgun, it might have been fatal. The gunshot would have been intentional, but my judgment was lacking. Shit happens. I would have given the benefit of doubt.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 3:55 PM

BYTEMITE


You made my argument for me, exactly what I was driving at. Temporary insanity.

Maybe you think it's a bullshit defense, but it has legal precedence, and in this case I think it applies. People do many things they don't intend to and later regret when they calm down. Even damaging things.

Should there be a consequence? Oh yes. You just damaged someone or someone's property. But to say you INTENDED to do so? First in this case I don't think we can prove it. And secondly, I don't think it's accurate to say there's intent. There's just anger, and it shuts out any other voice of reason.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 4:03 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Wow, so you're trying to dismiss the times while clinging to pronouncements by the daily fascist? Yeah good luck with that.


No. I'm not dismissing one newspaper over another. I know nothing about either of them, and have no bias. What you quoted did not address my question. I had no reason to think this was anything but the result a misunderstanding, or that checking your link would further address my question, if the link you gave was a product of that same apparent misunderstanding.

Your follow-up has addressed my question, and I'm satisfied.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 4:12 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I can't begin to even see the thought process behind thinking points of law aren't clarified if they're not strung out in bullet points in the tabloids.


From my own mouth:

Quote:

Perhaps British citizens are more informed about their legal rights and legal definitions of self-defense through other media, but I certainly didn't see it HERE, and I was merely stating, a lack of a clear definition could be a dangerous legal precedent.


Merely stating. If the law is defined as you say then I have no concerns.

Also also:

Quote:

If, having knocked an intruder unconscious, you then battered him as a punishment, you’d be acting with gratuitous force and could be prosecuted.


I don't think we can prove Hassein's motive, if he had one, was to punish the intruder.

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Tuesday, December 15, 2009 11:50 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

Being really really angry and really wanting to hurt someone is generally taken as motive not defence.
Good point.

Still, having been very jittery one day after being broken into the day before, I nearly shot someone... and since I was using a 12-gauge shotgun, it might have been fatal. The gunshot would have been intentional, but my judgment was lacking. Shit happens. I would have given the benefit of doubt.


And you probably would have done under UK law. Vis a Vis:
Quote:

In 1988, Ted Newberry, a 76-year-old from Ilkeston, Derbyshire, lay in wait on his allotment shed for an expected intruder, then shot a 12-bore gun at a Mark Revill when he tried to enter. Revill was badly injured and Mr Newberry was prosecuted on charges of wounding, but was acquitted by a jury.

I doubt he'd be acquitted if he had then left the shed and started battering the guy while he was on the ground. You really can't claim that you're acting in self defence if you're beating someone while they're lying half-conscious on the floor. What are you going to say "I was scared by the dreams they might be having"?
Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
You made my argument for me, exactly what I was driving at. Temporary insanity.

Maybe you think it's a bullshit defense, but it has legal precedence, and in this case I think it applies. People do many things they don't intend to and later regret when they calm down. Even damaging things.

Should there be a consequence? Oh yes. You just damaged someone or someone's property. But to say you INTENDED to do so? First in this case I don't think we can prove it. And secondly, I don't think it's accurate to say there's intent. There's just anger, and it shuts out any other voice of reason.


I haven't a problem with the temporary insanity defence. I doubt it would have flown here, for various reasons. He had the presence of mind to get tooled up and ask for assistance in helping to batter the guy for a start. It's academic anyway, his solicitor and barrister would know full well any possible defences, and would have used them if they had a snowballs chance in Afghanistan of working. I think its safe to say he'd have had some of the best legal team money can buy, so if they didn't choose to use temporary insanity, then they thought it had no merit. And temporary insanity is a difficult one to prove, anger doesn't do it, you have to show he didn't know the difference between right and wrong.
Quote:

I don't think we can prove Hassein's motive, if he had one, was to punish the intruder.


Well that's one of the jobs of the court. Either way we can say what his motive was not, and that is self defence, since the danger to him and his family had passed. That's why he was convicted.

I've seen dodgy decisions before, burglars getting compensation because they injured themselves breaking in, apparently we're supposed to provide a safe working environment to house breakers under health and safety legislation. This isn't one of those situations, it's a pretty solid conviction. Throwing the coffee table was self defence. If the guy had been hit on the head and recieved brain damage, that would be excusable. Chasing after them on the street after the danger has passed, then battering them until you break the weapon used, isn't.

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Wednesday, December 16, 2009 12:40 AM

AGENTROUKA


I'm with Citizen here.

No matter how righteous your anger, or how justified your fear that the intruder might get away and escape justice... you don't get to execute a death sentence on them - or try, by beating them so violently when they're down and defenseless.

I don't think that any case of overwhelming anger - no matter how justified - constitutes a basis for insanity defense, either. That defense should be reserved for special cases indeed.

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