The question is, did she get the name because Beck mentioned him, or does she really think Washington was a founding father, or is she ducking the questi..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Sarah Palin Can't Name Any Founding Fathers!

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 13:06
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 4216
PAGE 2 of 3

Sunday, January 17, 2010 8:46 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by chopper:
Did you get dropped on your head as a child?

I'm sorry, sockpuppet sh*theels are not allowed to be taken seriously on this forum.
Please try another.

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 8:49 PM

CHOPPER


Oh really, then what are you doing here? shit he@d?

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 8:51 PM

CHOPPER


yada, yada, yada

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 8:52 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by chopper:
yada, yada, yada

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 8:56 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:


Originally posted by chopper:
Oh really, then what are you doing here? shit he@d?



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Please try another.

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 8:57 PM

CHOPPER


just how far up your a$$ does mr. obama have his hand. sockpuppet.

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 9:00 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by chopper:
just how far up your a$$ does mr. obama have his hand. sockpuppet.


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Sunday, January 17, 2010 9:03 PM

CHOPPER


Well then, I guess I have to repeat myself. "What are you doing here."

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 9:03 PM

CHOPPER


I'm sorry, sockpuppet sh*theels are not allowed to be taken seriously on this forum.
Please try another.

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 9:04 PM

CHOPPER


I'm sorry, sockpuppet sh*theels are not allowed to be taken seriously on this forum.
Please try another.

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 9:04 PM

CHOPPER


I'm sorry, sockpuppet sh*theels are not allowed to be taken seriously on this forum.
Please try another.

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 9:07 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by chopper:
I'm sorry, sockpuppet sh*theels are not allowed to be taken seriously on this forum.
Please try another.


I'm sorry, sockpuppet sh*theels are not allowed to be taken seriously on this forum.
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Sunday, January 17, 2010 9:08 PM

CHOPPER


I actually know how to cut and paste also.
You have to be form of brian dead dead jacka$$

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 9:08 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by chopper:
I actually know how to cut and paste also.
You have to be form of brian dead dead jacka$$

I'm sorry, sockpuppet sh*theels are not allowed to be taken seriously on this forum.
Please try another.


I'm sorry, sockpuppet sh*theels are not allowed to be taken seriously on this forum.
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Sunday, January 17, 2010 9:10 PM

CHOPPER


I'm sorry, sockpuppet sh*theels are not allowed to be taken seriously on this forum.
Please try another

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 9:11 PM

GINOBIFFARONI






Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 9:13 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by chopper:
I'm sorry, sockpuppet sh*theels are not allowed to be taken seriously on this forum.
Please try another



CONNECTION TERMINATED BY USER @ TRM419023
DECRIPT 2A
FLAG POS

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 9:20 PM

CHOPPER


I just enjoy giving back to mr. sockpuppet sh!thead what he seems to enjoy giving to others.
Not a very intelligent one that.

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 11:25 PM

FREMDFIRMA



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Monday, January 18, 2010 8:31 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Geezer, I wrote when I posted the clip that I was unable to find a "clean" video, and I couldn't access the link that HAD been provided, so I was putting up the best I could find--there WERE worse ones, like Kimmel's, which I rejected. I guess you didn't read that part. If I could have found a video clip of nothing BUT the interview, I would have put that up--I try whenever I find something I want to put up, to avoid someone else's commentated clip and find just the material I'm seeking.

I was trying to say that in general, people consider the signers as the "founding fathers". That's how people refer to them, as the ones who created the Constitution and our form of government. To deny that is silly, in my opinion, given that the reference is made time and time again, recently by the Right as an indiction that Obama is--whatever they want him to be at the moment. C'mon, be it truth or otherwise, you can't tell me that all the bullshit that comes out nowadays about "not what the Founding Fathers (capitalized) meant for our country" refers to anyone but those who wrote the Constitution? I'm not arguing "fact", I'm arguing "perception"--and again, if the Faux News commentators themselves snarked gently about it, that's what BECK meant, too.

As to "diverse", sorry, I don't consider a bunch of white males as being "diverse", whatever their differing politics may be. They all had similar basic beliefs and basic intent, and "diversity" in the form of writing the Constitution wiht recognition of women and other ethnicities as valid wasn't there, period.

Mike, if you're right about Clinton, that's pathetic...tho' I knew he was pathetic about his desire to be seen as virile anyway. Shees.

Beyond that Geezer, Frem's entire long post speaks for me when it comes to Palin, so I won't be redundant. I will ad, however, that as I said in another thread, I don't think the "French President" thing spoke to stupidity, but to what Frem described: Big fish in little pond thrown in big pond.

As to an interview with Beck, I think all one needs is to have awakened that morning with half their brain working, and a strong analgesic or whatever one needs to keep from vomitting. The self-control to keep from laughing hysterically would help, too.

As to the entire rest of this thread, why is anyone paying attention to this idiocy? Wasted a good thirty seconds of my time I'll never get back. Simple solution: DON'T RESPOND!!!



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Monday, January 18, 2010 10:16 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I was trying to say that in general, people consider the signers as the "founding fathers". That's how people refer to them, as the ones who created the Constitution and our form of government.



Please stop. In the generally accepted historical terminology, the "Signers" were the people who wrote and signed the Declaration of Independence. The People who wrote and signed the Constitution were the "Framers". http://www.usconstitution.net/declarsigndata.html
http://www.usconstitution.net/constframedata.html
They are all "Founding Fathers" in any reputable historical source, along with other folk like Ethan Allen, Patrick Henry, Thomas Paine, John Jay, John Marshall, etc. who signed neither document but had quite a lot to do with American independence and the founding of the United States.

Quote:

To deny that is silly, in my opinion, given that the reference is made time and time again, recently by the Right as an indiction that Obama is--whatever they want him to be at the moment. C'mon, be it truth or otherwise, you can't tell me that all the bullshit that comes out nowadays about "not what the Founding Fathers (capitalized) meant for our country" refers to anyone but those who wrote the Constitution?


I mean - really - stop. Now you're citing right-wing propaganda as proof of what America believes?

It's a moot point anyway, since Washington presided over the Constitutional Convention and signed the Constitution. So even if you (and Glenn Beck, and the entire right-wing) consider the folks who wrote the Constitution to be the one-and-only, exclusive, accept-no-substitutes, dyed-in-the-wool, guaranteed authentic Founding Fathers, Washington is still one.

Quote:

As to "diverse", sorry, I don't consider a bunch of white males as being "diverse", whatever their differing politics may be. They all had similar basic beliefs and basic intent, and "diversity" in the form of writing the Constitution wiht recognition of women and other ethnicities as valid wasn't there, period.


If diversity applied only to sex, race and ethnicity, you'd be right. However, diversity can also apply to politics, philosophy, and opinion (among other things). In the 18th century the folks writing the Constitution were about as wide-ranging a group, politically and philisophically, as you were likely to get. Northerners, and Southerners; plantation owners and industrialists and bankers; folks who wanted a stong Federal government and those who wanted a loose confederation of states; slaveholders and those who wanted to free the slaves - sometimes the same people holding both views.


But answer this totally honestly, even if just to yourself. If someone asked you out of the blue to name your favorite, say, Supreme Court Justice or Speaker of the House, could you come up with a name and reason in a couple of seconds, or might you hem and haw a bit first?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, January 18, 2010 10:39 AM

GINOBIFFARONI






Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Monday, January 18, 2010 11:30 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:

But answer this totally honestly, even if just to yourself. If someone asked you out of the blue to name your favorite, say, Supreme Court Justice or Speaker of the House, could you come up with a name and reason in a couple of seconds, or might you hem and haw a bit first?


Geezer, stop. Government is her BUSINESS. She should know it like I know martial arts.
By the way Geeze, what's your favourite lead strike?

ETA: I know; all of them.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, January 18, 2010 12:26 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Geezer, stop.



Why?
If Niki wants to prove who know's smarter about Washington being a Founding Father, her or Sarah Palin, who am I to prevent her?

BTW, without looking at the lists above, name ten Signers of the Declaration of Independence or ten Framers of the Constitution.

How many folks signed both?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, January 18, 2010 1:02 PM

CHRISISALL


Playin' games & avoiding my question.

Bye.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, January 18, 2010 1:45 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Y'know, I've kinda gotta go with Geezer on this one. Washington IS a Founding Father. Hell, to a great number of people he is THE Founding Father, the ONE they all know before Jefferson, Adams (John and Samuel both!), Franklin, or even John Hancock (he of the overly large and flourish-y signature!).

Here's a quick excerpt from the Wiki entry:

Quote:

Most historians define the "founding fathers" to mean a larger group, including not only the Signers and the Framers but also all those who, whether as politicians or jurists or statesmen or soldiers or diplomats or ordinary citizens, took part in winning American independence and creating the United States of America. The eminent American historian Richard B. Morris, in his 1973 book Seven Who Shaped Our Destiny: The Founding Fathers as Revolutionaries, identified the following seven figures as the key founding fathers: Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, John Jay, James Madison, and Alexander Hamilton.


So, although this comes AFTER the Wiki bit about the Framers and the Signers, it still clearly includes Washington. Ask yourself this question, and see if it changes your view: Without George Washington to lead the Continental Army to victory, what exactly would the Founding Fathers have founded? For without Washington, there would BE no founding of this nation, because the Revolution would have been crushed, and every single one of the Founding Fathers would have been hanged as a traitor.

If that doesn't buy you entry into that exclusive company, I sure as hell don't know what does.


Like I said above, the funny isn't that she went with Washington as a founder, but that she went with the "all of them" line. Again.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, January 18, 2010 1:54 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


By the way, Geezer, the answer is "eight". ;)

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, January 18, 2010 1:56 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


It is all a matter of perspective


PN:


Pslin:


Wulf:


Hero:


Chris:


Frem:


Niki:


Gino:


Everyone has their own idea,

If any of the original bunch were alive today... I doubt they could get themselves elected away

lmao







Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Monday, January 18, 2010 2:08 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Y'know, I've kinda gotta go with Geezer on this one.

Oh sure, about Washington. I just wish Geezer could answer my question. Hell, I don't think I can think of a time he hasn't answered a question of mine with anything but a question. I'm through trying to discuss anything to him. Back to jibes & insults, I guess.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, January 18, 2010 2:19 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Geezer, stop. Government is her BUSINESS. She should know it like I know martial arts.
By the way Geeze, what's your favourite lead strike?



Okay. I'll address your question again.

First, knowing American history isn't, or shouldn't be, specialist knowledge for politicians alone. That being said, I doubt that most politicians, or citizens, could name more than five of either Signers or Framers, and would probably have trouble naming ten of the broadest pool of "Founding Fathers".

Second, Palin did answer Beck's question about her favorite Founder. She named George Washington(probably the most well-known and liked by the population at large) and cited, quite accurately, his disinclination to be involved in government, but willingness to serve for the greater good, as a reason he was her favorite.

Third, George Washington, by any criteria, WAS a Founding Father, dispite Niki's quibbles and circumlocutions, so the title of this thread is obviously incorrect.

Fourth, my favorite lead strike is a .308 caliber 200g Sierra MatchKing at 1000 yards.
My second favorite is a .451 cal. 260g hardcast lead flatnose at 50 yds.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, January 18, 2010 2:29 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:


Okay. I'll address your question.

First, knowing American history isn't, or shouldn't be, specialist knowledge for politicians alone.

This implies that politicians *should* have some working knowledge, did I read it wrong?
Quote:



Palin did answer Beck's question about her favorite Founder.
***
George Washington, by any criteria, WAS a Founding Father, dispite Niki's quibbles and circumlocutions, so the title of this thread is obviously incorrect.


I'm with ya here.
Quote:


my favorite lead strike is a .308 caliber 200g Sierra MatchKing at 1000 yards.

Not martial arts in the strictest sense, but I DO appreciate your answer nonetheless.

My only point was that being in government should entail some intimate knowledge of the workings & history of it, in the way being in martial arts entails the same.

Thank you.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, January 18, 2010 3:15 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

my favorite lead strike is a .308 caliber 200g Sierra MatchKing at 1000 yards.



In the martial arts world, I believe that's known as sniper-fu.

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Monday, January 18, 2010 3:34 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:


In the martial arts world, I believe that's known as sniper-fu.

To kill, I need only use one digit of my foot.

Yes. It's To-Fu.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, January 18, 2010 4:04 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Yet I only need to twitch a finger... :)


It's said that it takes thirteen muscles to smile, yet it only takes seven to pull the trigger on a really nice sniper rifle.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, January 18, 2010 4:11 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Seems to me the folks who put the video you posted together are loonies on a par with pundits like Limbaugh, the folks who put 'birther' sites up, and those who create pictures of Pres. Obama in Joker makeup.

My view on this:

I agree that a lot of the Palin scoffs are unfair (though not all of them!), and there are a lot of cheap shots taken at her (although in this example she set herself up for cheap shots by foolishly re-using her infamous 'all of them' line). This is just the nature of partisan politics - it's bias, shaded lenses - it doesn't equate to loonyness. Conspiracy theories I would say, are a different matter - they are often outlandish and deny all the available evidence.

Is the view that Sarah Palin is an 'ignorant airhead' a conspiracy theory (or comparable to one)? Certainly the very idea of a VP candidate and popular political figure being an ignorant airhead is quite outlandish and unlikely... but in my subjective judgement the evidence points to just that. Certainly, she has given so many apparently clueless answers that such a conclusion can only be described as hasty/cynical (not loony) at worst.

Heads should roll

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Monday, January 18, 2010 4:20 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yet I only need to twitch a finger... :)


It's said that it takes thirteen muscles to smile, yet it only takes seven to pull the trigger on a really nice sniper rifle.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde







Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Monday, January 18, 2010 4:31 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Seems to me the folks who put the video you posted together are loonies on a par with pundits like Limbaugh, the folks who put 'birther' sites up, and those who create pictures of Pres. Obama in Joker makeup.

My view on this:

I agree that a lot of the Palin scoffs are unfair (though not all of them!), and there are a lot of cheap shots taken at her (although in this example she set herself up for cheap shots by foolishly re-using her infamous 'all of them' line). This is just the nature of partisan politics - it's bias, shaded lenses - it doesn't equate to loonyness. Conspiracy theories I would say, are a different matter - they are often outlandish and deny all the available evidence.

Is the view that Sarah Palin is a dunderhead a conspiracy theory (or comparable to one)? Certainly the very idea of a VP candidate and popular political figure being an ignorant airhead is quite outlandish and unlikely... but in my subjective judgement the evidence points to just that. Certainly, she has given so many apparently clueless answers that such a conclusion can only be described as hasty/cynical (not loony) at worst.

Heads should roll



And while the idea of a dunderhead VP *seems* unlikely... at the same time it seems pretty dang *normal*, too.

Anyone remember Dan Quayle? Spiro Agnew? *ahem* Ermmm...


Joe Biden?

I rest my case.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, January 18, 2010 4:33 PM

CHRISISALL


Some say potatoe, while I say potato...


The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, January 18, 2010 4:40 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Anyone remember Dan Quayle? Spiro Agnew? *ahem* Ermmm...


Joe Biden?

I rest my case.


hmm, I see your point...

I should've stuck with 'ignorant airhead' (Joe Biden for e.g sometimes gives evidence of deep *knowledge* of some issues, if not wisdom). Best to edit I think.

Heads should roll

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Monday, January 18, 2010 7:18 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Naaaahhh - no edit necessary. We're used to thinking of our VPs as dunderheads, it would seem. They only become magically NOT dunderheads if they happen to get promoted. (LBJ, Truman, etc.)

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Monday, January 18, 2010 8:25 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Sometimes I think they are there to make their principal looks smart...

Draw attention with pointless photo ops etc



Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Monday, January 18, 2010 10:42 PM

CHOPPER


I'll give you ten to one that Borat Obmamie does not know who George Washington was. Hell, the idiot does'nt even know who his own father is.

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Monday, January 18, 2010 10:51 PM

CHOPPER


I'm sorry, sockpuppet sh*theels are not allowed to be taken seriously on this forum.
Please try another.

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Tuesday, January 19, 2010 3:35 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
My only point was that being in government should entail some intimate knowledge of the workings & history of it, in the way being in martial arts entails the same.



I agree, but I don't quite get your point.
Palin did name a Founding Father, something some of the folks mocking her in this thread seem to be unable to do. She also supplied information about Washington (his dislike for political service) that many folks don't know.

If Beck had asked her how a bill becomes law and she flubbed that, I'd say go ahead and scoff, but that didn't happen.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, January 19, 2010 3:46 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Geezer - do you really see her as presidential material?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, January 19, 2010 4:10 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Geezer - do you really see her as presidential material?



Not really. I just object to the attack video at the beginning of this thread. It's mean-spirited and snarky...but most of all, its premise is factually incorrect.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, January 19, 2010 4:42 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:

Not really. I just object to the attack video at the beginning of this thread. It's mean-spirited and snarky...but most of all, its premise is factually incorrect.



She seems to have that effect on people... I'd be happy if we never talked about her or W again.
I always took "Founding Fathers" more as a concept than a specific group.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, January 19, 2010 9:24 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
My only point was that being in government should entail some intimate knowledge of the workings & history of it, in the way being in martial arts entails the same.



I agree, but I don't quite get your point.
Palin did name a Founding Father, something some of the folks mocking her in this thread seem to be unable to do. She also supplied information about Washington (his dislike for political service) that many folks don't know.

If Beck had asked her how a bill becomes law and she flubbed that, I'd say go ahead and scoff, but that didn't happen.

"Keep the Shiny side up"




I'd love to hear her expound on his Christianity. ;)

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Tuesday, January 19, 2010 9:51 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
My only point was that being in government should entail some intimate knowledge of the workings & history of it, in the way being in martial arts entails the same.



I agree

Then we can leave it at that.

It's just that the landscape of her knowledge (in all ares) seems to be dreadfully short on acreage.
*cheap shot, I know- so sue me!*


The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, January 19, 2010 9:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


My, this one’s gone a long way since I was last here, too. I love this place!

Geezer, all I’ll say is
Quote:

Government is her BUSINESS. She should know it like I know martial arts.
and
Quote:

My only point was that being in government should entail some intimate knowledge of the workings & history of it
. I’m not trying to “prove” anything, nor do I think I’m smarter than Palin. Those statements make the point for me. Period.

Gino: Excellent. Tho’ I’m not sure I would agree to your choice for me. But your basic statements are RIGHT on target! And I think the “best cartoon ever” is hysterically right on!

KPO:
Quote:

This is just the nature of partisan politics - it's bias, shaded lenses - it doesn't equate to loonyness. Conspiracy theories I would say, are a different matter - they are often outlandish and deny all the available evidence.
Thank you. You said it better than I.

Damn, Mike. I was going to cite Quayle, and you beat me to it!



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