REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

'Expropriate it,' he said.

POSTED BY: GEEZER
UPDATED: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 09:01
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Monday, February 8, 2010 10:44 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has ordered the expropriation of several historic buildings in the main square in the capital, Caracas.

The buildings include a former residence of the country's 19th Century independence hero, Simon Bolivar.

The president said the move was part of an effort to preserve Venezuela's national heritage.

The order is likely to please and anger Venezuelans in equal measures, says the BBC's Will Grant in Caracas.

President Chavez's instructions to take over several buildings came during an impromptu tour of the square from where he was presenting his weekly television programme, Alo Presidente.


"What's that building? Wasn't it once a theatre?" Mr Chavez asked the mayor of Caracas, Jorge Rodriguez, who was accompanying him.

Reassured that the state theatre was already in state hands, Mr Chavez turned his attention to the building next door, which he was told was now owned by a jeweller.

"Expropriate it," he said.

Mr Chavez also ordered that another building, once occupied by Simon Bolivar, pass into state hands, as well as a number of other sites of historic interest.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8503892.stm

So maybe this will be the benchmark by which we determine when Pres. Obama goes Socialist. When he starts seizing buildings on a whim, with no consultation or legal process.


"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, February 8, 2010 12:24 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


So taking buildings without consultation or legal process makes one a socialist, eh?

Good to know. "Hero" is gonna be disappointed that you called Bush a socialist, though.



"Welcome to the fifty-first state! YEEEEEE HAWWWW!"


Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, February 8, 2010 12:32 PM

BYTEMITE


Ppht, cities and states do that in America already. Anything to avoid spending a buck, even if it means screwing the existing owner. Mostly it's to appease some developer or another. Money speaks, and investors got money (to contribute to campaigns)

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Monday, February 8, 2010 12:45 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Yeah, Byte, but when they do it, it just validates how great capitalism is. ;)

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Monday, February 8, 2010 12:59 PM

STORYMARK


So.... did this have a point other than Grandpa going for another weak attempt at makin' a zinger?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, February 8, 2010 5:16 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
So taking buildings without consultation or legal process makes one a socialist, eh?



Yeah. I guess that does make Saddam Hussein a Socialist too.

But back on topic. Do you have any problem with Pres. Chavez expropriating people's businesses and homes without due process, or is that okay with you? Do you think that's fair?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, February 8, 2010 5:24 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
But back on topic. Do you have any problem with Pres. Chavez expropriating people's businesses and homes without due process, or is that okay with you? Do you think that's fair?

"Keep the Shiny side up"




Now THAT's funny. Asking some on this forum to "stay on topic ". Good luck w/ that !



The T.Rex they call JANE!


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Monday, February 8, 2010 5:26 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
So taking buildings without consultation or legal process makes one a socialist, eh?



Yeah. I guess that does make Saddam Hussein a Socialist too.




Oooohhhh... So close. But no Panatella.

Who did you imagine Saddam took those buildings from when he built them?


Quote:


But back on topic. Do you have any problem with Pres. Chavez expropriating people's businesses and homes without due process, or is that okay with you? Do you think that's fair?



I'm sure I have as much problem with that as you did with the invasion and expropriation of Iraq by the U.S.

You DO have a problem with that, don't you? Do you think it's fair, or is it okay with you?



Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, February 8, 2010 5:28 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Iraq, Japan, Germany...... all exactly the same, huh?





The T.Rex they call JANE!


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Monday, February 8, 2010 5:28 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
But back on topic. Do you have any problem with Pres. Chavez expropriating people's businesses and homes without due process, or is that okay with you? Do you think that's fair?

"Keep the Shiny side up"




Now THAT's funny. Asking some on this forum to "stay on topic ". Good luck w/ that !





That IS funny. Did you have anything to say that's, y'know, ON TOPIC?

As always, you don't.

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Monday, February 8, 2010 5:28 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Iraq, Japan, Germany...... all exactly the same, huh?





The T.Rex they call JANE!





My, you ARE stupid, aren't you?

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Monday, February 8, 2010 5:30 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Iraq, Japan, Germany...... all exactly the same, huh?





My, you ARE stupid, aren't you?



Just burned you and obliterated your nonsensical point.

Stupid like a fox, huh?



The T.Rex they call JANE!


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Monday, February 8, 2010 5:31 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
So taking buildings without consultation or legal process makes one a socialist, eh?



Yeah. I guess that does make Saddam Hussein a Socialist too.

But back on topic. Do you have any problem with Pres. Chavez expropriating people's businesses and homes without due process, or is that okay with you? Do you think that's fair?

"Keep the Shiny side up"




You keep saying without due process ?

what is due process here?

BBC did not say

Are the people in question appealing ?

http://countrystudies.us/venezuela/41.htm

A court system does exist, are the laws in Venezuela being broken ?


This also happens in Israel all the time without the right to appeal, are they socialists too ? of course there it is not to preserve historic buildings, but to run out folk they don't like... is that okay with you? Do you think that's fair?, which is worse ?










Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Monday, February 8, 2010 5:36 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Iraq, Japan, Germany...... all exactly the same, huh?





My, you ARE stupid, aren't you?



Just burned you and obliterated your nonsensical point.

Stupid like a fox, huh?





Well, if you think the Iraqis planned 9/11, then I guess you'd have a point. 'Course, you'd be a fuckin' moron, too. Oh, wait - that's your tune!

I mean, you DID realize that Japan attacked *US*, and Germany then declared war on *US* as they were obligated by treaty to do once we declared war on Japan, right? You knew that, right?

So can you show me where Iraq attacked us and declared war on us, causing us to go to war against them?

Wasn't that YOUR nonsensical point?

Man, you being around makes me miss WhoZit. You actually make that guy look smarter!


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Monday, February 8, 2010 5:40 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


Just burned you and obliterated your nonsensical point.


LOL, same ole' 'Rapticus, I see. Busting your arm patting yourself on the back for losing in the Arena AGAIN.
LOL.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, February 8, 2010 6:14 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Iraq is no more taken over by us than Japan or Germany. As Obamessiah has stated, we're on course to leave, as we have always planned to leave.

No 51st state, no expropriation, not in the least.

You might want to try some aloe vera on those burns, son.


Won again, Chris. Sorry you're too dim witted and/ or partisan to fess up to that fact. Oh well.




The T.Rex they call JANE!


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Monday, February 8, 2010 6:28 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


How long before I burn your ass so bad - AGAIN - that you storm off after throwing one of your little fits? Remember this one?




I think you need all the burn creme you can get, boy.




And since when did you start worshipping Obama? You refer to him as your messiah, so I take it you're used to being on your knees, yes?

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Monday, February 8, 2010 6:48 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


No response to the issue, huh?

Didn't think so.

Go find some more pics to post, you got nothing else.



The T.Rex they call JANE!


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Monday, February 8, 2010 7:41 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
So maybe this will be the benchmark by which we determine when Pres. Obama goes Socialist.



well.. lets be fair, Obamas probably more a 'corporatist'. if General Motors literally became 'Government Motors', we could call him a socialist. as it stands, he's perfectly content continuing the status quo of giving mega-corporations the protection of the US taxpayer, rendering them infallable. like GE, like the insurance companies, like the banks, like the military industrial suppliers... and so on

but hey whos counting...

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Monday, February 8, 2010 7:44 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
So maybe this will be the benchmark by which we determine when Pres. Obama goes Socialist.



well.. lets be fair, Obamas probably more a 'corporatist'. if General Motors literally became 'Government Motors', we could call him a socialist. as it stands, he's perfectly content continuing the status quo of giving mega-corporations the protection of the US taxpayer, rendering them infallable. like GE, like the insurance companies, like the banks, like the military industrial suppliers... and so on

but hey whos counting...



Which makes him worse than Bush... HOW, exactly?

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, February 8, 2010 7:49 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
No response to the issue, huh?

Didn't think so.

Go find some more pics to post, you got nothing else.




The issue that I kicked your ass? Again? Or the issue that you run away crying like a baby every time I do it? Gosh, maybe I should take the high road and go after the "your mom" comebacks, like you would. Talk about a desperate wanker...

As for your ludicrous claims that we never took over Iraq, or Japan, or Germany? You DO know what an UNCONDITIONAL surrender is, don't you? You DO know that we then installed governments in those places, right? But yeah, in that howling vacuum of your head, I'm sure none of those count as invasions, occupations, or taking over. SUUUUUURRRRRE they don't.



Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, February 8, 2010 8:06 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Which makes him worse than Bush... HOW, exactly?



only in as much as hes already at a minumum doubled the Bush deficits. i never claimed he was different then Bush; hence, i didnt vote for the guy. some of us were able to see through the 'hopey-changey' euphoria

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Tuesday, February 9, 2010 1:11 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

As for your ludicrous claims that we never took over Iraq, or Japan, or Germany? You DO know what an UNCONDITIONAL surrender is, don't you? You DO know that we then installed governments in those places, right? But yeah, in that howling vacuum of your head, I'm sure none of those count as invasions, occupations, or taking over. SUUUUUURRRRRE they don't.



No, we controlled all 3 countries, and then left. We didn't permanently take them over, as you so falsely attempted to claim we're doing w/ Iraq. This was about what Hugo is doing down in Venezuela, and randomly taking things under State control, and your false comparison w/ regards to Iraq. That was your original flawed position. Try to keep up. I know it's tough for you to do anything other than throw juvenile fits and try to hide the fact that you got served, but that game wore thin, long ago.

Selah



The T.Rex they call JANE!


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Tuesday, February 9, 2010 2:47 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Can you show me where I used the word "permanently"? Or are you making shit up like you always do? When you imply that Chavez is doing things on a "permanent" basis, do you mean to say that you think he's immortal? NOTHING in the universe is PERMANENT.

For the record, our occupation - or taking over without legal consultation or justification or due process - of Iraq ISN'T like what we did with Japan or Germany. We've been in Iraq for longer than we occupied Japan, and for FAR longer than we were in control of Germany.

You just got served, AGAIN. I'm sure you're used to that by now.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Tuesday, February 9, 2010 3:25 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Who did you imagine Saddam took those buildings from when he built them?


If he built them, then he didn't take them from anyone.
Quote:


I'm sure I have as much problem with that as you did with the invasion and expropriation of Iraq by the U.S.

You DO have a problem with that, don't you? Do you think it's fair, or is it okay with you?



So you expect Chavez will give the stores and homes back? Wanna bet?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, February 9, 2010 3:42 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
You keep saying without due process ?

what is due process here?

BBC did not say

Are the people in question appealing ?

http://countrystudies.us/venezuela/41.htm

A court system does exist, are the laws in Venezuela being broken ?



In a one-party state, the laws usually end up being what the party in power and its leaders want. Pretty much all the news coverage of Chavez's seizures of businesses, media outlets, homes, etc. would lead one to believe that he decrees it and the military moves in to do his bidding.

Human Rights Watch notes that "Venezuela currently lacks a credible, independent judiciary that can serve as a check on arbitrary state action and a guarantor of fundamental rights."

http://www.hrw.org/en/node/79218

Quote:

This also happens in Israel all the time without the right to appeal, are they socialists too ? of course there it is not to preserve historic buildings, but to run out folk they don't like... is that okay with you? Do you think that's fair?, which is worse ?


I wouldn't call the Israelis Socialists. Their government seems pretty Facist a good bit of the time. I'm certainly no defender of the government's actions, and consider them heavy-handed and generally stupid.










Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"


"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, February 9, 2010 5:31 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:

Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Who did you imagine Saddam took those buildings from when he built them?



If he built them, then he didn't take them from anyone.



Then why do you insist on calling him a socialist, if he didn't take anything from the people?

Quote:

Quote:


I'm sure I have as much problem with that as you did with the invasion and expropriation of Iraq by the U.S.

You DO have a problem with that, don't you? Do you think it's fair, or is it okay with you?



So you expect Chavez will give the stores and homes back? Wanna bet?




So you expect we'll give all the palaces and buildings back? ALL of them? Wanna bet?

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Tuesday, February 9, 2010 5:33 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Human Rights Watch notes that "Venezuela currently lacks a credible, independent judiciary that can serve as a check on arbitrary state action and a guarantor of fundamental rights."

Well shit, so do we, to put it bluntly.

And while the rise to power and resultant corruption have driven ole Hugo off the deep end of the slippery slope, this really isn't one whit different that misuse of eminent domain here in the states, is it now ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_London

So where were you when this was an issue, eh ?

Nope, for YOU, this isn't about the act in question, which I consider wrong no matter who does it or where, for YOU this is about *who* is committing it, cause it's all just bullshit and excuses to flame a guy the producers of your current political Kool-Aid do not like, without a single thought in your pointy little heads to the notion that your little pet Kool-Aid servers are as guilty or worse of DOING THAT SHIT HERE.

Which if it really was an issue, and not some bullshit excuse, you'd be a hell of a lot more concerned about, but no, you whinge and whine and point fingers and pretend to "care" about the same folks you'd just as happily blow to bits in the name of "freeing" them from someone a little too 'left' for the liking of the powers that be, who are more pissed off about the fact that he cut the puppet strings and kicked rapacious american corporations out of his country for not paying the fucking rent, not to mention for the resources they were taking.

But no, just like the little wind up toys you are, you point and wail when someone ELSE does it, but slobber and cheer on command when your Kool-Aid servers do it, and in your treasured ignorance, fail to see the dichotomy of this.

Face the facts, it's Hugos country, they elected his ass, and they, the PEOPLE of Venuzuela, stood up to our military, political, and espionage efforts to sabotage their nation not once, but several times, and even stomped flat one of our coup attempts in 2002 against the guy which was both blatant as hell and technically an act of war.

Like Castro, this is a guy who stood up to, and eventually succeeded, in casting down one of our more brutal puppet regimes, and won the support of the people who got mistreated and crapped on, and if the locals maybe don't care too much for the way he's running things, they STILL prefer that to our so-called "help", and you can't blame them.

Do I think he's an ass, and corrupted by the power he holds, sure I do, just like Castro, Khomeni, and a lotta folks who threw down our puppets, but face the facts, despite their lack of respect for the law and human rights, the notion that these goons are a fucking IMPROVEMENT on the puppet-governments they threw down is a goddamned shameful thing.

The people of venezeula want him out, let THEM throw his ass out, cause the last thing they want is our "help", given what the inevitable price is.

And it kinda pisses me off that imma hear this same bullshit from you same people when Kharazi inevitably gets dumped the same way The Shah, Pinochet, Perez, Papa Doc, and all the rest of our little puppet kings have, especially since the people of afghanistan will without a doubt replace his ass with the most hostile (to us) sumbitch they can possibly find...

So you can be pretty sure I've little respect for the opinion of fools who whinge and whine and point fingers with one hand while polishing tyrannys jackboot with the other.

If this REALLY mattered to you, you'd have been throwing this hissy when it mattered to americans, instead of using it for a bullshit excuse to cry "foul" in the name of people you'd "rather see dead, than red".

Cause that's what it's REALLY about, and we all know it, so quit pretending.

-F

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Tuesday, February 9, 2010 7:14 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Posted by Fremdfirma:

Nope, for YOU, this isn't about the act in question, which I consider wrong no matter who does it or where, for YOU this is about *who* is committing it, cause it's all just bullshit and excuses to flame a guy the producers of your current political Kool-Aid do not like, without a single thought in your pointy little heads to the notion that your little pet Kool-Aid servers are as guilty or worse of DOING THAT SHIT HERE.



Egg-fucking-ZACKLY!

It's not that Grampa has a problem with WHAT Hugo's doing - he only has a problem with the fact that HUGO is doing it.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Tuesday, February 9, 2010 9:10 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Well shit, so do we, to put it bluntly.

And while the rise to power and resultant corruption have driven ole Hugo off the deep end of the slippery slope, this really isn't one whit different that misuse of eminent domain here in the states, is it now ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_London

So where were you when this was an issue, eh ?


I was commenting on how stupid the Court's decision was.

Also note the long-term results of Kelo (from the same cite)

"Prior to Kelo only eight states specifically prohibited the use of eminent domain for economic development except to eliminate blight: Arkansas, Florida, Illinois, Kentucky, Maine, Montana, South Carolina and Washington. By July 2007, 42 states had enacted some type of reform legislation in response to the Kelo decision. Of those 42 states, 21 enacted laws that severely inhibited the takings allowed by the Kelo decision, while the rest enacted laws that place some limits on the power of municipalities to invoke eminent domain for economic development. The remaining eight states have not passed laws to limit the power of eminent domain for economic development."

So at least here it does get worked through the court system, many such cases do get decided in favor of the owners and not the state, and backlash against a bad ruling can generate good legislation. Somewhat different from 'Chavez wants, Chavez takes, government rubberstamps'.

Quote:

Nope, for YOU, this isn't about the act in question, which I consider wrong no matter who does it or where, for YOU this is about *who* is committing it, cause it's all just bullshit and excuses to flame a guy the producers of your current political Kool-Aid do not like, without a single thought in your pointy little heads to the notion that your little pet Kool-Aid servers are as guilty or worse of DOING THAT SHIT HERE.


Sorry, Fremd, but by any reading from any resonably impartial source, Chavez is (as you note yourself) an asshole and is working his way up to typical tin-pot dictator. He's moving in the same direction as Mugabe in Zimbabwe, but at a faster pace. He may have been a revolutionary hero at one time, but he's got the taste of power now, and will use the mantle of Socialism, while betraying its philosophy, to ensure he stays on top. None of this is changed by the government of the U.S. or the governments of other countries also making (or having made) less-than-wise decisions.

You're also making an invalid assumption if you believe I'm suggesting that the U.S., or anyone else outside Venezuela, should do anything about removing him. I'm just pointing out his continuing foibles and wondering how much longer the lefties will continue to hold him up as a shining exemplar of Socialism.




"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, February 9, 2010 10:12 AM

FREMDFIRMA


He ever was ?

Unfortunately Geeze, we DO bear some responsibility since they've got such a short yardstick to measure him by thanks to that asshat Perez, and frankly even as fallen as he is, he's still better on his worst day than Perez was.

And yes, I am oh so well aware that's headed for a tin pot dictatorship, ever since he started foolishly removing the limits on the power of his own office, which his people, to their discredit, let him do, sure...

But it's THEIR country, man, when they want our "advice", our "help", which if they had any sense they'd nuke themselves rather than do, they'll bloody well ask for it.

There's a lotta countries who will tolerate being a tin-pot dictatorship if they get to pick the dictator, especially if the alternative is US picking the dictator, which happens often enough.

We want credibility, that's a game we have GOT to stop playing, and every time we go round picking shit with Chavez we enrage his people and increase his support by just that bloody much - we had any friggin SENSE we'd pull back, and let that reach it's inevitable conclusion one way or the other, without stickin our nose into it, especially since while his armed forces couldn't *quite* send us packing, he can damned well bloody that nose if we poke it to far, and he's half itchin for the chance to do it cause it'll give him an "enemy" to blame for a lotta problems that are the fault of his own policies and officials.

That said, you DO have some of that better-dead-than-red aroma comin off ya like a bad aftershave, Geeze, so why not be honest about it ?

-F

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Tuesday, February 9, 2010 10:39 AM

UNABASHEDVIXEN


Why is everyone in this forum (okay, maybe not everyone, but you know who you are - and you're on both sides of the political spectrum and everywhere in between) incapable of making a coherent argument? I'm not talking about crazies like PN or that Kingeichblahdeblah guy, I'm talking about people who seem to be able to express themselves somewhat. If you have a problem with what Chavez is doing, tell us why without falling back on tired cliches about socialism - this isn't about socialism or capitlism but about a particular action you disagree with. Tell us why. If you can't do that without resorting to a bunch of nonsense that adds nothing to the point you seem to be trying to make (but I confess it's hard to figure out the point most of the time in RWED) then really you have nothing to say.

This thread has the potential for interesting conversations but it always devolves into "Bush sucks!" "Obama rocks!" "Obama's a socialist Christian-hating puppy eater!" "Yo Momma!"

When there's too much partisan bullshit flying around for the woman who works for a political party that's when you know it's time to take a step back. If you have a point, make it. If you dont, STFU already.

*
People before profits

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Tuesday, February 9, 2010 11:00 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


one point, Chavez is also trying to undo decades of the " corporatism " which the US sponsored tyrants installed throughout most of Latin America ( and the world )

With entitys such as the United Fruit Company, and Standard Oil making policy beneficial to the companys bottom line, and to those who support the company... it may well take years to undo, and return their country into one where the people call the shots.

With the resistance to many of Obamas changes, can you see where trying to resist " corporatism " or even revert it in the US would also be an uphill battle ? The United States may well go through a similar phase in the near future... or go all the way to Corporate run American, particularly with the recent supreme court ruling.

Chavez may do many things that make him seem the asshat, but I do not envy him his fight. While many freedoms are curtailed, healthcare, education, poverty, employment, etc are things he is doing a much better job at addressing that the previous lackey juntas who had the US stamp of approval. This also separates him from Mugabe in Zimbabwe.

I think it may take another decade to really judge the effects of Chavez... Hopefully some of things he planted takes root, so when there is a push for more democracy there, it will not be subverted by other interests as it so often happens.


Oh, yeah... guys Geezer acknowledged the parallel I made between Chavez and the actions of Israel, which he described as fascist as well as stupid... a little unfair to attack him for picking on Venezuela selectively. Unlike AURAPTOR he does make some points about one party systems and the need for an impartial judiciary. Mind you with the direction the US is moving, after two terms of Palin the fight against Corporatism may well become your own.





Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Wednesday, February 10, 2010 3:55 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
He ever was ?

Unfortunately Geeze, we DO bear some responsibility since they've got such a short yardstick to measure him by thanks to that asshat Perez, and frankly even as fallen as he is, he's still better on his worst day than Perez was.



Very well could be. But Perez is gone and what Chavez does is current events. That's why I comment on it.

Never heard you complaining about the Norman Bastards that took Britain away from my Saxon forefathers. Or was that the Saxon Bastards that took Britain away from my Celtic forefathers?

Quote:

But it's THEIR country, man, when they want our "advice", our "help", which if they had any sense they'd nuke themselves rather than do, they'll bloody well ask for it.


As noted before, I'm not giving them advice, or suggesting anyone try to help them. It is their business, although it'll probably take another revolution, since the electorial machinery is now in the bag.

But I don't see why that should prohibit me from commenting on it. That would be like saying that the RWED posters who aren't citizens of the U.S. couldn't comment on American politics, government, society, etc. (Hmmm )

Quote:

That said, you DO have some of that better-dead-than-red aroma comin off ya like a bad aftershave, Geeze, so why not be honest about it ?


Fremd, if folk actually want to be Socialists or Communists, (or pretty much anything else) it's fine with me - as long as it's not with a gun to their heads, or with their guns to my head. I have noted previously that I can't find many (if any) examples of countries with long-term successful Socialist/Communist economy. I don't think it works very well. Places like China and Vietnam are keeping the political trappings and moving toward Free(ish) Market at flank speed. Maybe the South and Central American countries trying it now will do better. Venezuela does not make me hopeful.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, February 10, 2010 4:51 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Fremd, if folk actually want to be Socialists or Communists, (or pretty much anything else) it's fine with me
Bull. There are plenty of folks who wanted to be socialists, or communists... and you shit your pants about it every single time. AFA you're concerned, our support of the Shah of Iran (who took power after a CIA engineered coup), or Pinochet, or the Taliban (we called them "freedom fighters" back then), or Somoza, any number of tyrants who took down home-grown socialist movements was justified. But didn't we hold a gun to the people's heads, forcing them into tyrannies?

Because, yanno, I KNOW folks from central and south America, and they've told me stories... oh yes, they have... about the US-trained torture techniques (School of the Americas), about people showing up for a (fake) union meeting, only to be gunned down by (US led and supported) mercenaries, about the disappeareds, all the way through the Honduran coup.

Nope, Geezer, you're a dyed-in-the wool corporatist who will use or justify every trick in the book - mass murder, torture, intimidation, invasion, dictatorship, economic reprisal, coups, etc etc ... including lying and weaseling your way thru this board... to stamp out socialism anywhere and everywhere it appears even if it has the support of the people.

Basically, you're a chickenshit fucktard who is still under the illusion that we buy your story of being a "reasonable" middle-of-the-road-guy and not a rabid corporatist merc. Well, you aren't, and we don't.

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Wednesday, February 10, 2010 6:03 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


SignyM.

You forgot to accuse me of being a paid shill for the government, like you used to.

Sorry, but real people have their own opinions outside your paranoid fantasies.

Go take your meds.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, February 10, 2010 6:31 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Fremd, if folk actually want to be Socialists or Communists, (or pretty much anything else) it's fine with me - as long as it's not with a gun to their heads, or with their guns to my head.
First of all, I noticed that you sidestepped the point of the discussion entirely. Apparently, you have nothing to say about our imposiiton of capitalism on various countries - at the point of a gun, I might add. Something that you not only didn't object to, but actively supported.

No. Having nothing substantive to refute my post with, you launched right into a personal attack-
Quote:

You forgot to accuse me of being a paid shill for the government, like you used to
- a misdirected one at that. That wasn't me, Geezer. You must be getting old. Aricept usually works for that. And of course you have your own opinion. It just happens to be rapidly pro-corporate. Shall I dig up your rationalizations of our various "interventions" around the world, when WE held a gun to people's heads and said "Our way or.. dead?"? (Yep, when I have time I believe I shall. )

Everyone recognizes your POV, except possibly for you. Unfortunately, there's no medicine for self-deception, otherwise I would suggest that you take a double dose.

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Wednesday, February 10, 2010 7:05 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Iraq, Japan, Germany...... all exactly the same, huh?


I'm not sure what this has to do with Chavez, unless this is a response to Kwicko's point about expropriating nations, and the argument is that the U.S. was justified in Germany and Japan, and will eventually be justified in Iraq.

In which case... Still is completely off topic, and kind of a red herring, and doesn't make sense. Japan started industrializing in the 1800s (See Meiji Restoration, the early 1900s war with Russia, WHICH JAPAN WON), so we didn't exactly improve on Japan so much as firebombed the bejeezus out of their paper houses.

And we split Germany with Russia, which caused untold heartbreak in the form of the Iron Curtain and the Berlin Wall. Though that was actually more Russia's fault... Still, not such a great idea to walk into a country and carve it up. It's basically trying to build a skyscraper with only dynamite and bullets.

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Wednesday, February 10, 2010 7:12 AM

BYTEMITE


Actually, Kwicko, we still have bases in Japan and Germany, so technically we're still occupying them.

Nation building and social reform efforts have long since ceased, however. Germany was probably the longest one, what with (again) the Berlin Wall thing, then the Soviets falling.

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Wednesday, February 10, 2010 7:25 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:

Iraq, Japan, Germany...... all exactly the same, huh?


I'm not sure what this has to do with Chavez, unless this is a response to Kwicko's point about expropriating nations, and the argument is that the U.S. was justified in Germany and Japan, and will eventually be justified in Iraq.



That's specifically to what I was responding. The view that we simply took something as Chavez did. The overall point being, we left those countries, as we'll be leaving Iraq. Hugo likely won't be releasing that which he's taken , for the good of the State, any time soon. Certainly won't happen while he's still in power.

As for the GOOD that came of it, or whether or not Western industrialization had any improvement on those countries.... not in any way connected w/ what's being discussed.



The T.Rex they call JANE!


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Wednesday, February 10, 2010 7:28 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Iraq is no more taken over by us than Japan or Germany. As Obamessiah has stated, we're on course to leave, as we have always planned to leave.
Quote:

The overall point being, we left those countries
But if we left Japan and Germany, why do we still have bases there? And I'll betcha dollars to donuts we'll have bases in Iraq too.

The occupation continues!

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Wednesday, February 10, 2010 7:30 AM

BYTEMITE


Some people do start off with good points on both sides, Vixen, and some threads actually manage to survive and stay very civil conversations. It's why I come here.

This argument IS very partisan, however, and has even polarized people who pride themselves on not being partisan. I think it's because everyone inadvertently pushes everyone else's buttons. The people who tend to think most along party lines tend to polarize most, and they do it purposefully. Which is fairly ingenious actually, though it doesn't help long term board unity.

I sit on the sidelines and act as the peanut gallery when this happens. Mostly the anger subsides and people will get along again elsewhere, unless it gets too personal, in which case the argument requires neutral mediation to calm both sides down.

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Wednesday, February 10, 2010 7:36 AM

BYTEMITE


AURaptor: Ahhhh, okay. I'm not sure if I agree, Germany and Japan don't have two major religious sects that hate each other and various tribal disputes to deal with, so nation building is a lot more difficult. Frankly I think we ought to just LET the tribes and religions define their own mini-states, rather than try to force them all to work and live together. As in Afghanistan, much of the population appears to be fairly mobile, and if not mobile, then capable of mobilization. A history of caravans and nomadic tribalism is in their blood, and there might be less conflict if we just let all the like groups group and settle together.

But I now understand where this fits in the conversation. Thanks for clarifying.

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Wednesday, February 10, 2010 7:58 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Still, not such a great idea to walk into a country and carve it up. It's basically trying to build a skyscraper with only dynamite and bullets.


Ding Ding Ding.

You win the kewpie doll.

That's kinda my point - right along with that folks like Khomeni, Chavez and Castro are an all but inevitable side effect of that foolishness and we should admit to bearing some small part of our own complicity in that.

Side note, btw - the Japanese are pretty pissed off about those bases right now, and since we have no real reason to be there, happen to be up to our ass in middle east quicksand, not to mention stretched thin militarily, happen to be making an issue of it, while betting on our desperate need for boots on the ground to help advance their desire to be rid of the damned things.

-F

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Wednesday, February 10, 2010 7:58 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Absolutely, the issues, differences and problems from one situation to the next are many.

Didn't mean to imply otherwise.

And as for having bases in other countries.... where's Ron Paul when ya need him ?





The T.Rex they call JANE!


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Wednesday, February 10, 2010 8:06 AM

BYTEMITE


Ooh, yeah, decommission some of our bases. There's an idea I think most everyone could get behind. Close up some monetary sinkholes, which for us would be only beneficial for the economy. Plus it would help generate good feelings from the locals, especially if we show that see, America IS willing to give up the land when the job is done. In theory I don't know how true that is, because often times these same bases are a foothold for economic interests (especially military contractors), but it'd still be a nice gesture.


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Wednesday, February 10, 2010 8:54 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Having nothing substantive to refute my post with, you launched right into a personal attack



Sorry, Siggy, but when you spend two paragraphs insulting someone, you really shouldn't expect them to take the time to wade through your paranoid insults and provide substantive refutations of whatever little bits of discussion you hide there.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, February 10, 2010 9:01 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Having nothing substantive to refute my post with, you launched right into a personal attack



Sorry, Siggy, but when you spend two paragraphs insulting someone, you really shouldn't expect them to take the time to wade through your paranoid insults and provide substantive refutations of whatever little bits of discussion you hide there.

"Keep the Shiny side up"



Geezer. Changing the topic again, I see. Why should I be surprised?

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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