Not too well, I guess; she doesn't want anyone but the choir she preaches to hearing her, apparently. Nothing to do with the cheat-sheet thing on her pa..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

How's that pressy-attentiony thing workin' out for 'ya, Sarah?

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Friday, February 26, 2010 16:10
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Sunday, February 21, 2010 1:15 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)








Terrorist.

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 1:26 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Damn Gino, steal *all* my thunder, why don't ya ?

You've left me with really not much to say, but I do have to take issue with the idea of Texas or Utah being the first to secede...

See, Utah, and moreso Texas, they *TALK* a good game, but historically, when the rubber meets the road they take a dive so fast it's appalling.
(Ok, maybe imma a little hard on TX, but I got my reasons, not the least of which was living there...)
If they'd REALLY wanted to be independent, they woulda pulled out at the end of the Civil War when the Union had almost nothin left to throw at them and all they woulda had to to was bait those fools out into the badlands and cut off their supplies with mounted irregulars, then watch em bake to death out there.

But instead they knuckled under despite having every possible advantage they *could* have, and given previous and subsequent behavior from a historical viewpoint fully convinces me they'll only *actually* secede if a secessionist victory is a foregone conclusion, and they'll hold off a while spouting platitudes and condemning the "traitors" right up to the quick "we were always on your side, really.." change of heart near the very end - and should things go badly, they'll also be the FIRST to jump ship on you, too.

Seriously, look at the history, they might talk a good game, but the texan primary battle tactic is to run for the hills as soon as things get nasty.
That said, you back em into a corner, they'll hand you your ass on a plate.

Still, I wouldn't be sanguine about counting on them for any backup.

Vermont and New Hampshire are your better options, especially as they've actually put the time, effort and money into a secondary level of infrastructure as a check against disaster (like that massive blackout that wiped out power damn near everywhere) but also in the eventuality it should come to such a thing, and while they're very conservative folk who take half of forever to make up their minds - once they do, they're also some of the most stubborn folk in the country.

They go, Maine will prolly go with em, and Rhode Island never really gave a damn what the Union thought in the first place, being so small it goes mostly unnoticed, although Massachusetts is kind of a toss-up, and New York wouldn't budge for quite a while.

So if you're lookin for how that'd go, look north, not south - and I note for the record that Michigan happens to be probably THE most defensible state up here from - barring the UP, we only really got one border to defend, and decayed that it is, the industrial capacity to field the heavy stuff, along with a population and mindset that doesn't have a lotta problems about usin it on somebody (or anybody, we *are* admittedly a little trigger happy), plus we get on with the Canadians quite well, thankee muchly.

Not that I think it'd ever come to that, cause state authority would likely fall before federal, and the resulting social collapse would make such a scenario unviable, as the scattered communities thrown back on their own resources would prolly see federal intervention as a blessing once the ugly realties of such an event come clear to them in an unignorable way, and those who don't will be in community-sized chunks, easy prey for the imperial war machine.

Most of the folk talking about secession really have no idea just how fast things can and will go to hell in a handbasket if you start taking an axe to the mutual support systems which enable us to go on about our daily lives, because they take these things for granted to the point where they're invisible save when the bill gets paid at the end of the month.

Trust me, you do NOT wanna see what happens to a medium-largish city when you cut off food, water and power to it - remember we've done casualty estimates for this, and that's why I don't support it.

-Frem



I was thinking more the economic means to break away first.

Texas has oil and gas, an agricultural base, ports, heavy industry, and people with the cash and connections to give it a go. Particularly if one or two neighbors throw in.

The Northwest US, Hawaii, Alaska, all have secessionist groups...

but all would require some outside support

California, possibility's, but don't see them going on their own unless there was a big immediate reason to, but they would likely go second

The interesting thing would be how the US military would fracture... or would they side with the Federalists if they decided to hold the union by force again...

Not that I see any potential Robert E Lees out there


" Trust me, you do NOT wanna see what happens to a medium-largish city when you cut off food, water and power to it "

I have given that one alot of thought the past few years

Hmmm I wonder if Canada might not gain a province or two before it was over.



Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 1:27 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:






Terrorist.




Nice, simple but accurate




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 1:29 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Texas: Not likely to happen. Rick Perry is a god-damned idiot who should probably consider himself lucky to not be in prison this evening, on a host of charges and for myriad reasons. His saying that Texas could secede is an ignorant reading of how we came into the union after the Civil War. What it SAYS is that we can be split into five different states, NOT that we can secede and go our own way. And the charter doesn't even say WHO has the authority to decide whether, or when, or how it's supposed to happen.

I take issue with Frem's analysis of the "typical Texas fighting strategy". Having grown up in West Texas, I can tell you for a fact that the "typical" fight starts with some shrimp going up to the biggest buy in the room and starting shit with him, just so everybody else knows he's a badass and leaves him alone. Problem with that is, I'm 6'8".

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 1:32 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:






Terrorist.




Nice, simple but accurate




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"



Why, thank you, Gino! I found that pic somewhere, then lost it, then searched and searched and searched until I found it again, then found the "thoseposters" site and made that, and then saved it so I wouldn't lose it again!

I *wish* I could find the morphed image that someone (I *think* it was Citizen, but it might have been you) put up of Sarah Palin morphed with a Pit Bull. I've searched for that and just can't find it again...

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 1:37 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:






Terrorist.




Nice, simple but accurate




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"



Why, thank you, Gino! I found that pic somewhere, then lost it, then searched and searched and searched until I found it again, then found the "thoseposters" site and made that, and then saved it so I wouldn't lose it again!

I *wish* I could find the morphed image that someone (I *think* it was Citizen, but it might have been you) put up of Sarah Palin morphed with a Pit Bull. I've searched for that and just can't find it again...

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde



Not me I wish...


Man Bush looks like he passed a joint over to Condi in that pic

lol




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 6:49 PM

FREMDFIRMA



I meant BATTLE tactics, Mikey.

I'll give that when it comes down to good ole fisticuffs most texans are pretty scrappy, and a little *too* willing to throw down the hoe-down, sure.

But in an out and out military engagement, their primary tactic has pretty much been to run the hell away as fast as possible, hell, Santa Annas biggest mistake was boxing them in at San Jacinto instead of chasing them around in circles till they gave up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gonzales
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runaway_Scrape
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_San_Jacinto

Worse is that Santa Anna shoulda *known* better, but it's also a well known fact that the Mexican Army never learns a damned thing, like EVER, cause they were to repeat that mistake on another April, 27 years later, at Camerone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camerone

Hint to Mexican Army: When your smaller, weaker opponent forts up and refuses to surrender, go find a fucking textbook and look up the word Siege, I mean, damn...

Anyhows, unfortunately Mikey, my dim opinion of Texans is from having to deal with em, and about 85% of em that I ever did acted much like Wulfie on his worst day, with a hefty side order of hypocrisy, making Governor Goodhair rather typical of the breed - and don't even get me started on them throwing "Yankee" around as the geographic version of a racist ephithet, not only at someone born south of the Mason Dixon line, but by folks who weren't even native born Texans.
*eyeroll*
The moment that really brought my ire at that whole attitude was having to sit there and listen to a black supervisor hurl some seriously racist verbal abuse at a bunch of migrant-worker illegals from down south, without a single thought to the truly idiotic level of irony involved.
(I was damn tempted to ask him if he learned those words from his grandaddys experiences on a cotton plantation, but just bit my tongue and walked away)

Of course, you got the other 15%, who were pretty decent folk, but 15% ain't enough to run a revolution when the fair-weather-friends of the other 85% side with whoevers winning at the moment...

As for Michiganders, problem with them (remember that no one, NOT A SINGLE ONE OF EM, reported Norinco, ever!) is that they like firepower, lots of firepower, and they loooove using it - if things ever go to hell in a handbasket, they'll be too busy using it on EACH OTHER to be any threat to anyone else - starting with the rightie-whitey racist as crap Militia guys from up north, and the more tolerant, racially diverse guys of the south who despise those yooper bastards with an equal passion.

People are crazy, but you knew that.

-F

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:50 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Texas: Not likely to happen. Rick Perry is a god-damned idiot who should probably consider himself lucky to not be in prison this evening, on a host of charges and for myriad reasons. His saying that Texas could secede is an ignorant reading of how we came into the union after the Civil War. What it SAYS is that we can be split into five different states, NOT that we can secede and go our own way. And the charter doesn't even say WHO has the authority to decide whether, or when, or how it's supposed to happen.

I take issue with Frem's analysis of the "typical Texas fighting strategy". Having grown up in West Texas, I can tell you for a fact that the "typical" fight starts with some shrimp going up to the biggest buy in the room and starting shit with him, just so everybody else knows he's a badass and leaves him alone. Problem with that is, I'm 6'8".

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde



Maybe he is an idiot, but hey...

the guy who had his job before him was an idiot too, and look how that turned out...

Does that make it more likely to happen...

or does that say something about the voting habits of texans



Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Monday, February 22, 2010 2:48 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Gino, I think it says something about the voting habits of Texans, unfortunately. Hell, we voted Bush in TWICE before the rest of the country ever heard of him - AND THEN WE VOTED FOR HIM TWICE FOR PRESIDENT *AFTER* knowing what a fuck-up he was! (And when I say "we", I definitely "include myself out" of that group).

And here's Perry, who served half of Bush's second term, then got himself elected TWICE, and is now running for a third full term.

I guess it gets easier to run when you've got the Alcoholic Beverage Commissioner forcing his agents to go around collecting "protection money" from every bar and night club in the state on the taxpayers' dime and donating it to Perry's political war chest.

Oh, wait - I forgot. We're on a semi-public forum, so I should add [i[ALLEGEDLY. ;)



Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, February 22, 2010 7:42 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Gino, not taking offense, but beginning to wonder "why me?"
Quote:

both of you are
. How about "both of them"? You agreed with the photo Mike put up; so do I. I posted three definitions of terrorism; one of them mentioned "The word "terrorism" is politically and emotionally charged, and this greatly compounds the difficulty of providing a precise definition. Studies have found over 100 definitions of “terrorism”."; I hold to that.

I don't understand what you mean by
Quote:

I think our differences in the definition is you are stuck with the idea that other people use terror as an end and the US uses terror as a means.

I think I established the ends the people we are talking about are looking for, and the means they are using are what they are

I'm not "stuck" with any definition; it's my opinion. I posted elsewhere a bit about British "terrorism", do you think BRITAIN (or probably more practically "England") is a terrorist state? Why single the US out, and why with such vehemence?

As to the cite, I don't always read cites; I try to post only the relevant argument to make my points, then the link if others want to explore further. I felt you posted te relevant points, and found no need to refer to the cite for more. I'm not sure what response you expected?

I've agreed with you on several points, even that the US is in some ways a terrorist state. I've also said that we might agree to disagree, as neither will change the other's mind, so we're at an impasse. Why are you continuing to harp on this? I find it confusing. It's beginning to "feel" as if you need there to be a "winner" or something...?

Oh, Mike; don't feel too bad. After all, we gave the country Reagan, remember?



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Monday, February 22, 2010 9:09 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

After all, we gave the country Reagan, remember?



And Nixon. :) But only in response to Texas giving you LBJ...

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, February 22, 2010 9:20 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Gino, not taking offense, but beginning to wonder "why me?"
Quote:

both of you are
. How about "both of them"? You agreed with the photo Mike put up; so do I. I posted three definitions of terrorism; one of them mentioned "The word "terrorism" is politically and emotionally charged, and this greatly compounds the difficulty of providing a precise definition. Studies have found over 100 definitions of “terrorism”."; I hold to that.

I don't understand what you mean by
Quote:

I think our differences in the definition is you are stuck with the idea that other people use terror as an end and the US uses terror as a means.

I think I established the ends the people we are talking about are looking for, and the means they are using are what they are

I'm not "stuck" with any definition; it's my opinion. I posted elsewhere a bit about British "terrorism", do you think BRITAIN (or probably more practically "England") is a terrorist state? Why single the US out, and why with such vehemence?

As to the cite, I don't always read cites; I try to post only the relevant argument to make my points, then the link if others want to explore further. I felt you posted te relevant points, and found no need to refer to the cite for more. I'm not sure what response you expected?

I've agreed with you on several points, even that the US is in some ways a terrorist state. I've also said that we might agree to disagree, as neither will change the other's mind, so we're at an impasse. Why are you continuing to harp on this? I find it confusing. It's beginning to "feel" as if you need there to be a "winner" or something...?

Oh, Mike; don't feel too bad. After all, we gave the country Reagan, remember?






Frustration

I see the shit your country does I want it to pay


maybe I am what Frem called a Dark Spark on another thread


Blair should be hung too, same with many world leaders... Chechnya comes to mind. But the US keeps putting itself up as a model to the world, a country of laws, and democracy... lies and bullshit

remember you asked for my opinion, now you have it

and just think, your terrorism is ongoing, own it

and the way I see it... if you give guns and money to someone and they send out death squads... maybe you have a defense... unless you continue to send them guns and money... then you own their crimes too

Israel, Saddam gassing the Kurds, etc, etc, etc

When you said well maybe someday someone will get charged...

you can see how someone living with your crap will feel

do you better understand why terrorism exists now ?

why it is more about you allowing your government to go crazy, than religion or differences in wealth, or the other Faux news explanations ?


I want you to see beyond the definitions, beyond pointing at someone elses bullshit... Maybe feel a little outrage



Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Monday, February 22, 2010 9:37 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, this is getting ridiculous. You've heard my outrage many times. I didn't "point" at anyone else's attrocities except to respond that other contries are guilty of many of the same things the US is.
Quote:

why it is more about you allowing your government to go crazy, than religion or differences in wealth, or the other Faux news explanations ?
I don't understand that one, and if you think we "allow" our government to do anything, then you have no grasp of how the PEOPLE in a country have often little or no impact on what their GOVERNMENT does. We dow what we can; we protested Vietnam until we went hoarse...it didn't do any good. We TRY to vote in better politicians...that hasn't done much good either. We do what we can to fight the military-industrial complex, what else do you suggest? We're not all Frem, and I don't think even HE can have much influence on our military's actions.

My problem is your hard-on for the US, and your blaming those of us here with "you" so much. We have problems, but we're not THE worst nation in the world, believe it or not. I've agreed with most of your points, in two separate threads; at this point it's pretty obvious you're not hearing me and just want to attack. "I" am not my government, nor is anyone else here, but if you want to characterize us that way, there's nothing I can do about it, except cease engaging you.

So I'm off to walk the dogs; hopefully more constructive conversations will ensue.

Yeah, Mike, I forgot Nixon, dammit! I'm not sure LBJ is a fair comparison to EITHER Reagan or Nixon, so I'll have to give California -2 and Texas -1-1/2, I'm afraid!



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Monday, February 22, 2010 10:01 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Oh, this is getting ridiculous. You've heard my outrage many times. I didn't "point" at anyone else's attrocities except to respond that other contries are guilty of many of the same things the US is.
Quote:

why it is more about you allowing your government to go crazy, than religion or differences in wealth, or the other Faux news explanations ?
I don't understand that one, and if you think we "allow" our government to do anything, then you have no grasp of how the PEOPLE in a country have often little or no impact on what their GOVERNMENT does. We dow what we can; we protested Vietnam until we went hoarse...it didn't do any good. We TRY to vote in better politicians...that hasn't done much good either. We do what we can to fight the military-industrial complex, what else do you suggest? We're not all Frem, and I don't think even HE can have much influence on our military's actions.

My problem is your hard-on for the US, and your blaming those of us here with "you" so much. We have problems, but we're not THE worst nation in the world, believe it or not. I've agreed with most of your points, in two separate threads; at this point it's pretty obvious you're not hearing me and just want to attack. "I" am not my government, nor is anyone else here, but if you want to characterize us that way, there's nothing I can do about it, except cease engaging you.

So I'm off to walk the dogs; hopefully more constructive conversations will ensue.

Yeah, Mike, I forgot Nixon, dammit! I'm not sure LBJ is a fair comparison to EITHER Reagan or Nixon, so I'll have to give California -2 and Texas -1-1/2, I'm afraid!






Sure you have expression outrage... but you also have said

" I see no good whatsoever in what they’re doing. They’re universally labeled “bad guys”, which means their view is rejected, first of all. Second, nothing like what Al Qaeda is doing will change foreign policy, our government has to do that, and hasn’t in almost a hundred years. All they’re doing is killing a bunch of innocent people in order to make a statement, which statement is lost on the wind...not our wind, the world’s. Our wind thinks America can do wrong, foreign policy-wise. Two wrongs never do make a right. "


My intent was to convey why people join Al Qaeda, why they feel the way they do about your country

and if the US ceased their policys, do you not think Britain would back off, or that it would give Israel pause ? Perhaps Russia could be reigned in ?

protests and marchs... didn't accomplish much, an attempt I give you that

I didn't come up with the argument that Americans are individually responsible for the actions of their government, the first ( I know of anyway ) was a guy named Abdullah Azzam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_Yusuf_Azzam

Do you understand terrorism and what drives it better ? that is the whole point I am trying to make here.

Do you still think Al Qaeda is so bad ?

You both share a common cause in wanting to stop your governments foreign policy ? So what I am saying the end is the same where you differ is the means.

And we seem to agree the " nice " means do not work...

so what are we left with








Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Monday, February 22, 2010 1:40 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Niki, I *don't* think Al Qaeda are "universally" labeled as "bad guys". In some places, they're seen as heroes. I'm not making this up. I know it sounds ludicrous, but it's true. *I* don't agree with their message nor their methods, but there are those who do.

I'm told there are some who feel the same way about the U.S. military, too, which I don't get, either.

From an outsider's perspective, I don't think you and Gino really have any beef with each other; I think you're both arguing essentially the same thing, just not seeing eye-to-eye about HOW you're arguing it. At the end of the day, though, y'all seem pretty close to the same views.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, February 22, 2010 2:28 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


The Russian revolution might not have happened without the external disaster of WW1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Revolution_%281917%29

Funny how declines in economic power, military power and national prestige ALWAYS seems to require an outside force as a tipping point.


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Monday, February 22, 2010 2:40 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


But what's our outside force? And what's our tipping point?

Is Al Qaeda the outside force, and Iraq the tipping point?

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, February 22, 2010 3:04 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
But what's our outside force? And what's our tipping point?

Is Al Qaeda the outside force, and Iraq the tipping point?

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde



Al Qaeda would be one of the outside forces, Iraq, China... hell Israel are all collectively acting in ways that are underpinning the US

As for a tipping point, the economy...


http://english.aljazeera.net/business/2010/02/201021743521113498.html

China sold a record amount of its US Treasury holdings in December, ceding its place as the world's biggest foreign holder of US debt to Japan.


They say it isn't significant... but does China do things that are insignificant ?

Crashing both the US and Japan at the same time ?

They really learned their economic warfare well...




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Monday, February 22, 2010 3:11 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Speaking of the economy









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Monday, February 22, 2010 4:04 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


They say it isn't significant... but does China do things that are insignificant ?

Crashing both the US and Japan at the same time ?

They really learned their economic warfare well...



You know what's most impressed me about China ascendency? That they learned it SO well - hell, they completely bypassed the rampant military spending and cold war arms race bullshit, and just quietly went about building all our shit and underselling us while doing it, and the next time we turn around, they're on the verge of overtaking us as an economic power.

They say Reagan showed the Soviets that he could spend them into oblivion (which I disagree with, but that's another conversation for another time). The Chinese watched and learned, and decided that instead of trying that against us, they'd sidle up beside us, act friendly, and the outproduce us into obsolescence. And it's not their fault that we didn't realize it until it was too late.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, February 22, 2010 4:24 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Doing things the way they did has built up their own economy, usually at the expense of their competitors... mind you that is what a global economy is all about.

Internal dissent is lower because jobs and money and consumer goods are at a all time high

Planning that goes beyond the next four years strikes again



In Soviet Amerika.... all stores are Wallmart




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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 11:35 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8533827.stm


Chinese takeover of GM's Hummer collapses
Hummer
GM bought the Hummer brand in 1999 and sold it last year

General Motors (GM) is to wind down operations of its Hummer vehicles - after failing to complete a planned takeover by a Chinese firm.

GM did not comment on why the sale to China-based Tengzhong had collapsed. Reports have said Beijing had refused to approve the purchase.

GM agreed to sell the brand last year, as it offloaded famous names it owned and went into bankruptcy protection.

It said it was "disappointed" the deal could not be completed.

"GM will now work closely with Hummer employees, dealers and suppliers to wind down the business in an orderly and responsible manner," said John Smith, vice-president of corporate planning and alliances.

The firm added it would continue to honour Hummer warranties, and provide service support and spare parts to current owners around the world.

Waning popularity

GM emerged from Chapter 11 in July last year, announcing that it would discontinue the Pontiac and Saturn, and saying it would sell Swedish brand Saab and its European operations, Opel.

It eventually decided to keep Opel - which includes UK brand Vauxhall - and sell Saab to Dutch carmaker Spyker.

Hummers were originally built as military off-road vehicles by a company called AM General.

The brand took off as US motorists flocked to the sport utility vehicles favoured by celebrities including Arnold Schwarzenegger.

GM bought the Hummer brand in 1999, but sales have suffered recently as the gas-guzzling performance and military image have become less popular.

Hummers weigh up to five tonnes and have fuel consumption of about 15 miles per gallon.

Tengzhong - which is based in China's Sichuan province - specialises in making equipment for the road, construction and energy industries.

Under the terms of the original deal, Tengzhong was going to take an 80% stake in Hummer, with the remaining 20% going to Hong Kong entrepreneur Suolong Duoji.

The company had also said it would be focusing on improving efficiency in Hummer models, including the introduction of diesel engines.




LMAO

No you keep your trash






Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 1:46 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

LMAO

No you keep your trash




HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Makes you almost feel sorry for the idiots who were stupid enough to buy those crap cars. Almost.

I feel bad for the workers losing their jobs, though.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 2:10 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

LMAO

No you keep your trash




HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Makes you almost feel sorry for the idiots who were stupid enough to buy those crap cars. Almost.

I feel bad for the workers losing their jobs, though.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde




What were they making when they were working ?

40 an hour or better, full on free ride benefits

The unions are a huge reason why the auto industry collapsed

The executives and their graft had equal partners







Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 2:25 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Honesty in the Auto Industry








Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 2:29 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

Oh, Mike; don't feel too bad. After all, we gave the country Reagan, remember?



Unconditionally the best President this country has had in the past 100 years.





Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first.

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 2:34 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"40 an hour or better, full on free ride benefits."

Actually ... no. That's a myth.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/11/ap/congress/main4664833.shtm
l


"(AP) Hourly wages for United Auto Workers laborers at General Motors Corp. factories actually are almost equal to those paid by Toyota Motor Corp. at its older U.S. factories, according to the companies. GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota says it pays about $30 per hour.

The difference is in benefits, with the unionized factories having far higher costs.

GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69 including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses. Toyota says its total costs are around $48. The Japanese automaker has far fewer retirees and its pension and health care benefits are not as rich as those paid to UAW workers."


Here in California, a Kaiser (HMO) family plan costs nearly $1,000 / month (or with simple arithemtic, $12,000 / yr). If the US had a decent health care systm, that would be a big chunk of change for labor cost alone.

On top of that retirees who gave up wages in order to have a pension and health care benefits are getting paid as well. And I'm guessing that their insurance premiums are pretty high.

I'd say that a large part of the labor cost difference is in insurance premiums.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 2:53 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Did someone hear something? I thought I might have, but it was too ridiculous to be real... oh, well...



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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 4:06 PM

GINOBIFFARONI





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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 4:10 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"40 an hour or better, full on free ride benefits."

Actually ... no. That's a myth.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/11/ap/congress/main4664833.shtm
l


"(AP) Hourly wages for United Auto Workers laborers at General Motors Corp. factories actually are almost equal to those paid by Toyota Motor Corp. at its older U.S. factories, according to the companies. GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota says it pays about $30 per hour.

The difference is in benefits, with the unionized factories having far higher costs.

GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69 including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses. Toyota says its total costs are around $48. The Japanese automaker has far fewer retirees and its pension and health care benefits are not as rich as those paid to UAW workers."


Here in California, a Kaiser (HMO) family plan costs nearly $1,000 / month (or with simple arithemtic, $12,000 / yr). If the US had a decent health care systm, that would be a big chunk of change for labor cost alone.

On top of that retirees who gave up wages in order to have a pension and health care benefits are getting paid as well. And I'm guessing that their insurance premiums are pretty high.

I'd say that a large part of the labor cost difference is in insurance premiums.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.



True enough, and it would be of use for everone, not just those with unions



Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 4:36 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Did someone hear something? I thought I might have, but it was too ridiculous to be real... oh, well...



I think it was a joke, but it was so full of static...


The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 5:49 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Did someone hear something? I thought I might have, but it was too ridiculous to be real... oh, well...





Something about Reagan being the worst President in 100 years, until Dubya came along. I think that was the gist of it. Lotsa static, none of it made much sense.


Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 6:06 PM

GINOBIFFARONI












The day Ronnie got shot


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Wednesday, February 24, 2010 8:11 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oooo, I WANT that t-shirt!! (But the graphic under it didn't come out...)



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Thursday, February 25, 2010 9:32 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


FFF.net

when Reagan died


http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=5601#74770






Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 10:03 AM

HKCAVALIER


Ah Gino,

We all looked so young back then!


HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 10:22 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
FFF.net

when Reagan died


http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=5601#74770


HEY! >
Quote:

AURAPTOR
Three-point, four-hour, should do it.

Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 12:44



Virtually none of those things listed have anyhting to do w/ Reagan or his Administration.

Reagan was perhaps the best President in the last 50 yrs, I say the last century.



" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "



Wow, before I came here AU was JUST as deluded & JUST as bad at spelling! HA!


The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 12:01 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


We were all young once








Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Thursday, February 25, 2010 12:12 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Quote:

AURAPTOR
Three-point, four-hour, should do it.

Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 12:44



Virtually none of those things listed have anyhting to do w/ Reagan or his Administration.

Reagan was perhaps the best President in the last 50 yrs, I say the last century.



" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "



Wow, before I came here AU was JUST as deluded & JUST as bad at spelling! HA!




Only I wasn't deluded OR bad at spelling. Same then as I am now, consistently right. So, what's your point again ?



Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first.

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Friday, February 26, 2010 8:45 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


REAGAN?!?! he who channeled nancy the last half of his presidency?? o...my...gawd!!! glad i wasn't here back then. well, i wouldn't have been--for long!!

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/557191 says it for me. as does
Quote:

In 1980, when campaigning to become U.S. President, Reagan wrote to a North Carolina tobacco farmer reassuring him of his strong support for the tobacco industry. "I also want to assure you that my Administration will end what has become an increasingly antagonistic relationship between the Federal government and the tobacco industry. The Carter Administration has all too often singled out the tobacco industry for selective criticism and damaging restrictions. … I can guarantee that my own Cabinet members will be far too busy with substantive matters to waste their time proselytizing against the dangers of cigarette smoking," Reagan wrote.

Ronald Reagan (died June 5, 2004) was the first professional actor to become an American president. A conservative Republican, he was elected to office in part because of dissatisfaction over a weak economy. Reagan's legacy includes unprecedented federal budget deficits fueled by tax cuts made at the same time the federal budget grew, due to massive increases in military spending (which the Soviet Union could not match). Conservatives credit him with winning the Cold War against the Soviet Union. However, critics fault his involvement in the Iran-Contra arms scandal and his support for the anti-Soviet Mujahideen in Afghanistan (part of which went on to become the basis for Osama bin Laden's Al Qaeda).

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Ronald_Reagan

Quote:

As governor of California and president of the United States, he enacted policies that, in the main, greatly expanded the role and size of government.

As governor, he oversaw the largest tax increase in Californian history. Democratic Governor Jerry Brown cut back the tax rate when he came to office.

As president, Reagan expanded the federal government by about 90%.

Ah, but this was for defense, one might protest. And defense spending, according to the conventional wisdom, doesn’t count for some reason. In fact, defense spending is good for a "capitalist" economy, even though it was supposedly defense spending that brought down the Soviet economy. (I wonder if Reagan’s increases in California’s spending when he was governor can be attributed to a good-faith effort on his part to beat Oregon and Nevada in an arms race.)

All in all, Reagan allowed the welfare state to enlarge and the military budget to explode, causing monstrous budget deficits and government growth that dwarfs government growth under Clinton, even when Clinton had a Democratic Congress. Reagan’s tax cuts notwithstanding (some of which he reversed), the state grew fat and its growth will inevitably be financed through inflation or tax increases (unless the state defaults).

Reagan also bombed Libya, put the "war" in War on Drugs, allowed the continuation of Selective Service registration (despite his campaign promise to end it), helped the Khmer Rouge terrorize Thailand, imposed brutal trade sanctions on Nicaragua, funded the murderous brutal Contras, sold missiles to Iran, gave assistance to Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden, and lied to the American people.

That he did all these things in the name of "freedom," "capitalism," "small government," and "liberty" renders his legacy, in my opinion, all the more insidious. If bad Reaganesque policies continue to have a pass because of their superficial rhetorical selling points, American liberty will have suffered, not strengthened, because of him.

Many Americans say Reagan was a man of principle, regardless of what else we might think of him. And yet I’ve heard few examples of how he acted on his principles. More often, I hear excuses that he had a principled ideology but failed to follow through.

Still, his rhetoric probably did bring a fair number of people around to adopting some good values. And even some of his policies – such as pulling out of Lebanon after terrorists bombed the Marine base in Beirut, lifting oil price controls, continuing Carter’s deregulation – were quite admirable, especially by today’s standards.

By and large, however, Reagan’s words are used to advance the power of the state. Many in today’s War Party, previously critical of Reagan’s relative restraint, claim that Reagan would have approved of their pet war in Iraq, when we do not know one way or the other if that is true.

They say Reagan made them revere liberty, and that their reverence towards liberty leads them to revere war.

They say that his words about the Soviet Union are applicable today, and that what we face now is Cold War II.

They say that Clinton and even Bush the Second haven’t sufficiently followed Reagan’s policy of bloated military spending and foreign bellicosity.

They have in the past compared him to Thomas Jefferson, when all the two presidents had in common was that their words were better than their presidencies. (Even this is a weak comparison, seeing as how President Jefferson actually shrank the government.)

Today’s champions of neo-Reaganism invoke the legacy of a man who practiced libertarian rhetoric and carried out a predominately statist agenda, and they do it to advance an agenda even more statist than Reagan’s.

As much as I think certain misanthropes distort and twist Reaganism to their devious purposes, it is no surprise that the Gipper would have such a vile following. No symbol is more useful in the advocacy of empire than a respected leader who glorified freedom even as he trampled it.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/gregory/gregory12.html

and much, much more. his 'legacy' is a fantasy with which right wingers delude themselves. they should read rhe FACTS! personally, i will never live down that we gave him to the country...we 'muricans does like our celebrities...



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Friday, February 26, 2010 9:08 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


It's funny, because what Rappy and the right hate Obama for (and even call him "criminal" for!) are the exact same policies that they LOVED Reagan and Dubya for.

Obama - increasing the size of government, increasing deficits and debt, seeing unemployment levels of 10% in his first term = BAD.

Dubya - doubling the size of government, increasing deficits and debt, seeing the stock market tumble 45% during his second term = GOOD.

Clinton - decreasing deficits and debt, balancing the budget, enacting pay-as-you-go legislation, leaving office with a budget surplus and a robust economy = BAD.

Reagan - nearly doubling the size of government, massive deficits, more than doubling the national debt, seeing America into what was then its worst recession since the Great Depression, IN HIS THIRD YEAR IN OFFICE = GOOD.

Something about it just doesn't compute...

Add to that the almost universally accepted oxymoron about Republicans keeping us safe from terrorists, and it's just laughable. On average, FAR more Americans die in terrorist attacks under Republican presidents than under Democrats.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Friday, February 26, 2010 4:10 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Of course it computes: consider who you're talking about! I refuse to believe any THINKING Republican doesn't actually know the truth--it's the ones steeped in self-delusion and/or buying what they're told who buy into the fantasies, silly!



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