They put this in the "Friday Dump", but it got picked up anyway (tho' it appears not by the MSM). No disbarment,no prosecution:[quote]DOJ: No misconduct..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

There goes prosecuting the torturers

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 01:16
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1931
PAGE 1 of 1

Saturday, February 20, 2010 8:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


They put this in the "Friday Dump", but it got picked up anyway (tho' it appears not by the MSM). No disbarment,no prosecution:
Quote:

DOJ: No misconduct for Bush interrogation lawyers

Justice Department lawyers showed “poor judgment” but did not commit professional misconduct when they authorized CIA interrogators to use waterboarding and other harsh tactics at the height of the U.S. war on terrorism, an internal review released Friday found.

The decision closes the book on one of the major lingering investigations into the counterterrorism policies of George W. Bush’s administration. President Barack Obama campaigned on abolishing the simulated drowning technique of waterboarding and other tactics that he called torture, but he left open the question of whether anyone would be punished for authorizing such methods.

Liberal Democrats had pressed for action against the authors of the so-called torture memos, and they indicated they aren’t finished discussing the matter. Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., said he was “deeply offended” by the legal memos and planned to hold a hearing Feb. 26.

An initial review by the Justice Department’s internal affairs unit found that former government lawyers Jay Bybee and John Yoo had committed professional misconduct, a conclusion that could have cost them their law licenses. But, underscoring just how controversial and legally thorny the memos have become, the Justice Department’s top career lawyer reviewed the matter and disagreed.
“This decision should not be viewed as an endorsement of the legal work that underlies those memoranda,” Assistant Deputy Attorney General David Margolis wrote in a memo released Friday.

Margolis, the top nonpolitical Justice Department lawyer and a veteran of several administrations, called the legal memos “flawed” and said that, at every opportunity, they gave interrogators as much leeway as possible under U.S. torture laws. But he said Yoo and Bybee were not reckless and did not knowingly give incorrect advice, the standard for misconduct.

The Office of Professional Responsibility, led by another veteran career prosecutor, Mary Patrice Brown, disagreed.
“Situations of great stress, danger and fear do not relieve department attorneys of their duty to provide thorough, objective and candid legal advice, even if that advice is not what the client wants to hear,” her team wrote in a report that criticized the memos for a “lack of thoroughness, objectivity and candor.”

Damn. Hell. Fuck.





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Saturday, February 20, 2010 8:28 AM

CHRISISALL


And the Golden Rule is still in effect.



The pissed Chrisisall

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Saturday, February 20, 2010 8:57 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Yup, deeply disappointed, and it's not going to buy them a damn bit of cooperation or kudos from the people who were cheerleading the torture (Cheney & Co.).

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Saturday, February 20, 2010 9:35 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


As I said before, this matter has no business going in front of a politically sensitive American court.

It would be like the Nazis running the Nuremberg trials

The only place to do this is through the ICC, hard to be disappointed when this was a forgone conclusion.




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Saturday, February 20, 2010 10:41 AM

LITTLEBIRD



Very disappointing!

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Saturday, February 20, 2010 2:36 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!




" Somehow....' I told you so', just doesn't quite cover it "




Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first.

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Saturday, February 20, 2010 3:43 PM

FREMDFIRMA



This is cause they ain't as bloody STUPID as the former administration.

You open the door for certain things, you face the possibility that when the next asshole climbs to power, they might not like you, AND will be able to use all those tricks against YOU.

Cause not a one of em ever wants to cut the leash, just change which political hand is holding it.

-F

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 9:12 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I guess you're right, Frem: Another strike against hope and change. Damn.

Did you hear something?





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Sunday, February 21, 2010 10:32 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"The only place to do this is through the ICC ..."

Maybe it's wending its way there. As far as I know, the ICC is charged with looking into these things when a country can't or won't look into it themselves. This would be a necessary step to go in that direction.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 10:39 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Would be nice...sigh...whether anyone yet has the power to dictate to us, I don't know. But I wish SOMEONE would take the initiative and put our breaches in place, punish those who broke international law, etc. Maybe eventually...I can hope.



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Sunday, February 21, 2010 10:46 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Well, I guess it should say, "there goes THE U.S.A. prosecuting the torturers"; If I were any of those guys, I'd be REAL careful about leaving the country. Ever.


No telling what might happen to them in another country, where they don't have the same rights as a citizen of that country...

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 10:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, my, don't I WISH! We should send them invitations to other countries, or maybe it's still too early for that...

Hey Mike (or anyone); I'm trying to change my avatar, but it only comes up a URL! I did it exactly the same way I put up the last one, AND my signature, and no bigger...any suggestions?



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Sunday, February 21, 2010 11:12 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Oh, my, don't I WISH! We should send them invitations to other countries, or maybe it's still too early for that...

Hey Mike (or anyone); I'm trying to change my avatar, but it only comes up a URL! I did it exactly the same way I put up the last one, AND my signature, and no bigger...any suggestions?





Perhaps an invite to a film festival


LMAO,, hahhhhhaaaaaahahaaaaahahaaaa




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 11:18 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oooo, festival...better yet, how about something which was going to give them an award or medal or something? They LOVE shit like that! Or a speaking engagement that pays lots and lots of money?

Any ideas on the avatar? I'm really stuck. sigh...computers!



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Sunday, February 21, 2010 12:02 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:Oh, my, don't I WISH! We should send them invitations to other countries, or maybe it's still too early for that...




All expense paid weekend of pheasant hunting in France, for Cheney ?

Lucrative speaking engagement during Oktoberfest in Munich for W ?







Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first.

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 12:27 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
The only place to do this is through the ICC,



Probably not really likely. As outraged as folks are about the memos, they're not too significant when weighed against the stuff the ICC is currently trying, such as genocide, extermination, conscripting child soldiers, sexual slavery, murder, rape, pillaging, etc.

http://www.icc-cpi.int/Menus/ICC/Situations+and+Cases/Cases/

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 12:50 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Oooo, festival...better yet, how about something which was going to give them an award or medal or something? They LOVE shit like that! Or a speaking engagement that pays lots and lots of money?

Any ideas on the avatar? I'm really stuck. sigh...computers!





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Polanski


lmao still




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 12:55 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
The only place to do this is through the ICC,



Probably not really likely. As outraged as folks are about the memos, they're not too significant when weighed against the stuff the ICC is currently trying, such as genocide, extermination, conscripting child soldiers, sexual slavery, murder, rape, pillaging, etc.

http://www.icc-cpi.int/Menus/ICC/Situations+and+Cases/Cases/

"Keep the Shiny side up"



So you are arguing that the US did some stuff, but it is too small to worry about...


But I only stole a little money...

But I only killed a couple people...



How is that a legal defence ?

How far do you need to go to be " significant "

I wonder just how big this is if ALL the files, witnesses, etc were exposed ?


Or is international justice only good for the third world despots the US doesn't like




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 1:06 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Gino, now you're being absurd--and unfair. Of COURSE what anyone does is worth investigating. But up against "genocide, extermination, conscripting child soldiers, sexual slavery, murder, rape, pillaging"? Seriously? Hopefully they'll get around to it in time, I sincerely hope so.
Quote:

Or is international justice only good for the third world despots the US doesn't like?
You know that isn't true for the majority of people, inside or outside the US. We want them brought to justice; if the ICC is too busy, there ought to be other ways, but I don't fault them for dealing with those horrors FIRST, or we find another way!

You've got an awful lot of hate toward America; is your country pure as the driven snow, or do you just pay most of your attention to ours?



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Sunday, February 21, 2010 2:02 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Gino, now you're being absurd--and unfair. Of COURSE what anyone does is worth investigating. But up against "genocide, extermination, conscripting child soldiers, sexual slavery, murder, rape, pillaging"? Seriously? Hopefully they'll get around to it in time, I sincerely hope so.
Quote:

Or is international justice only good for the third world despots the US doesn't like?
You know that isn't true for the majority of people, inside or outside the US. We want them brought to justice; if the ICC is too busy, there ought to be other ways, but I don't fault them for dealing with those horrors FIRST, or we find another way!

You've got an awful lot of hate toward America; is your country pure as the driven snow, or do you just pay most of your attention to ours?






I try to form my opinions looking at actions

and I don't see ANY meaningful investigation / prosecution happening.

the opinion of Americans be damned, I'm looking at the actions or lack thereof

How about :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3035296.stm

seems like " justice unless it is us " to me

My problems with my countrys foreign policys is we support yours too often,

How many people faced warcrimes charges in your Vietnam adventure ?

http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/165/29461.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/kissinger-faces-uk-qu
estioning-over-dictators-network-657593.html



and I am supporting the opposition partys to bring the government current in power down



your last snark makes me think you don't want to discuss the facts as you say you do, so be it then




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 3:38 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa06.html


While I dont agree with all the cites, not up to me to decide

Mind you I can add, and some part time African warlord with child soldiers dont have anything on your crowd

http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa06.html

Period Country USA Policy Details Civilians Killed
1945 South Korea Support for massacre of dissidents on Cheju Island. 100,000 +
1948 Vietnam Support of French efforts to recolonise. thousands
1950 Bahamas Biological tests (with Canada and UK). unknown
1950 Korea Stopping refugees crossing the front line. hundreds
1952 Cuba Support for military coup and death squads. thousands
1952 Korea
China Biological warfare. unknown
1954+ Guatemala Organisation of military coup; arming and training of government death squads. 100,000 +
1957+ Haiti Support for brutal dictatorship. 60,000
1962 Cuba Attack on industrial facility. 400
1963 Iraq Supplying military government with lists of dissidents to be eliminated. thousands
1964 North Vietnam Blanket bombing. unknown
1964 Brazil Support for brutal dictatorship. 75,000 +
1965 Indonesia Supplying government with lists of dissidents to be eliminated. thousands
1965 to 1973 Laos Blanket bombing. hundreds of thousands
1965 Peru Setting up military camps to eliminate dissidents. unknown
1967 Vietnam "Friendly Fire". 80
1968 Vietnam My Lai Massacre by USA troops over 200
1970 Vietnam Chemical warfare. thousands
1970 Laos Chemical warfare. Over 100
1971 Vietnam Military action. 5,000
1972 Vietnam Blanket bombing. unknown
1972 Lebanon
Syria Air attacks by Israel supported by the USA. hundreds
1973 Chile Organisation and support of military coup and its follow-up actions. 5,000
1969 to 1973 Cambodia Blanket bombing, mostly in secret. 600,000
1964 to 1975 Vietnam
Laos Blanket bombing. 2,500,000 +
1939 to 1975 Spain Financial support for brutal dictatorship. 192,684
1975 to 1979 Cambodia Khmer Rouge auto-genocide resulting from five years of secret bombing. 2,500,000 +
1975 to 1999 East Timor Support and arming of Indonesian invasion and genocide (with UK and Australia). 200,000
1975 Iraq Abandoning of former Kurdish allies. unknown
1976 Nicaragua Massacre of dissidents by supported and armed un-elected government. thousands
1978 Lebanon Supporting of invasion by Israel. 700
1978+ Guatemala Arming, training and support of government death squads. 20,000
1953 to 1979 Iran Support and finance for unelected, brutal government put in place by USA and UK. unknown
1979 Nicaragua Support and arming of unelected, brutal government put in place by USA. 30,000
1980 to 1992 El Salvador Training, arming and financial backing for government death squads. 75,000
1980 to 1990 Iran Support and arms for invasion by Iraq. 1,000,000
1980 Italy Support and finance for urban terrorists. 86
1980 South Korea Massacre of dissidents by military government armed and supported by USA. thousands
1981 Lebanon Support of bombing raids by Israel. 320
1982 Lebanon Support for invasion by Israel including use of UN veto. 17,500 +
1982 to 1990 Chad Training and arming of military regime. thousands
1982 to 1986 Guatemala Support and arming of brutal, military regime. 50,000 +
1983 Grenada Invasion to remove leader. 500
1976 to 1984 Argentina Support and finance for military regime. 30,000
1986 Nicaragua Support and arming of former government troops for destabilisation. 50,000
1986 Libya Military attack on oil installations. 70 +
1987 to 1992 Palestinian Territories Support and finance for occupation and settlement building by Israel. 1000 +
1983 to 1987 Lebanon Support and arms for military action by Israel and CIA sponsored terrorism. 50,000 +
1988 Iran Shooting down of commercial passenger airliner. 286
1988 Iraq Support (with UK), finance and arms for regime which uses poison gas on its Kurdish population. 6,000
1989 Panama Invasion to remove leader. 4,000 +
1991 Iraq Invasion (with UK and other countries). 200,000
1992 Somalia Invasion. 7,000
1974 to 1992 Angola Arming and support for rebels destabilising country. 650,000 +
1986 to 1994 Colombia Finance (with UK oil companies) and support for regime that kills dissidents. 20,000 +
1995 to 1998 Turkey Arms and finance for regime that kills dissidents and its Kurdish population. 27,000 +
1995 Mexico Military aid to supress dissidents. unknown
1996 Lebanon Arms and support for Israel in its occupation. 120
1996 Palestinian Territories Arms and finance for Israeli occupation. 80 +
1997 Rwanda Arms and finance for regime that kills dissidents. 6,000
1965 to 1997 Indonesia Arms, support and finance for brutal dictatorship. 1,000,000
1990 to 1997 Iraq Pressure on UN to impose and maintain sanctions and bombing raids (with UK support). 1,200,000 +
1998 Afghanistan Finance (with UK) for brutal Taliban government. 2,000 +
1998 Sudan Bombing. unknown
1986 to 1998 Guatemala Support, finance and arms for regimes that kill dissidents. 200,000
1999 Yugoslavia Bombing (with other NATO countries). thousands
1999 Iraq Bombing (with UK support). hundreds
1991 to 1999 Kuwait
Iraq Unexploded cluster bombs. 1,620
2000 Palestinian Territories Support, arms and finance for occupation and settlement building by Israel. hundreds
2001 Colombia Arms and training for regime that kills dissidents. 18
2001 Palestinian Territories Support, arms and finance for occupation and settlement building by Israel. hundreds
2001 Palestinian Territories Ethnic cleansing. 100 +
2001 Afghanistan Bombing (with UK). 3,760 +
1995 to 2001 Peru Helping military shoot down aircraft suspected of drug running. unknown
2002 Palestinian Territories Political support, finance and arms. hundreds
2002 Angola Intelligence. unknown
2002 Iraq Bombing (with UK). unknown
2002 Yemen Missile attack on vehicle. 6
2003 Afghanistan Support for war lords. 300 +
2003 Algeria Finacial and military support for unelected government. hundreds
2003 Iraq Invasion (with UK). 17,000 +
2003 Bolivia Support for government that is crushing economic dissent. 40
1976 to 2003 Indonesia Support for government suppressing minorities in Aceh province. 12,000 +
2003 Palestinian Territories Political support, finance and arms. hundreds
2003 Uzbekistan Support for dictator. unknown
2004 Palestinian Territories Political support, finance and arms. 1,400 +
2003 to 2007 Iraq Invasion and Occupation (with UK). 655,000 +
2006 Palestine, Lebanon Political support and arms. (with UK). 1,300 + (to August)
2006 Haiti Removal of elected government. (with France). 8,000 + (to September)
2007 Somalia Removal of government. (with Ethiopia). 2,000 +
2008 Palestine Political support for siege and killings. 700 +
2009 Palestine Political support and arms. 1,300 +

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 4:00 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Mind you the International Court of Justice has found the US guilty in at least one case,

Mind you the US ignored the verdict, and the law once again became meaningless

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States#Legal_clarific
ation_and_importance



so no law but the law you make,

this how lynchings become commonplace

note to self... buy stock in rope factory






Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 4:54 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

so no law but the law you make,



Yep. Sadly.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 5:10 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

note to self... buy stock in rope factory



No kidding. Me, I'll be setting up Mike's Ropes 'N' Gallows Emporium, located right next door to Frem's House of Tar, Feathers, Torches & Pitchforks.

Hey, as long as we're throwing 'em all out, might as well make a buck or two off it. It's the American Way™, after all! :)

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 5:31 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
So you are arguing that the US did some stuff, but it is too small to worry about...



Too small for the ICC, with limited time and resources, to move to - or near - the top of their list. Then again, I haven't seen them going after the Al Qaeda and Taliban commanders who order suicide bombing attacks on civilians, murder of teachers, destruction of schools, etc, which would seem to me to be more egregious crimes than saying waterboarding was acceptable.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 5:37 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Nah.

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 6:06 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


I have googled some of the links, it is interesting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tailwind

Operation Tailwind
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Operation Tailwind
Part of the Vietnam War
Special Forces Hatchet Force Tailwind.jpg
SOG Hatchet force loads up for Operation Tailwind
Date 11 September to 13 September 1970
Location Southeastern Laos
Result U.S. victory
Belligerents
Flag of the United States.svg Hatchet Force of MACV-SOG Flag of Vietnam.svg North Vietnam
Commanders
Eugene McCarley Unknown
Strength
16 Americans,
110 Montagnards Unknown
Casualties and losses
16 wounded (U.S.),
3 killed, 33 wounded (Montagnards) At least 54 killed
[show]
v • d • e
Military engagements
of the Vietnam War

Sunrise – 1st Ap Bac – Go Cong – Hiep Hoa – Chan La – 34A – Long Dinh – Kien Long – Quyet Thang 202 – Nam Dong – Thanh Hóa – Gulf of Tonkin – An Lao – Bình Gia – Pleiku airbase – Market Time – Vung Ro Bay – Thanh Hoa Bridge – Song Be – Ba Gia – Đồng Xoài – Starlite – Chu Lai – Plei Me – Minh Thanh – Hump – Gang Toi – Ia Drang Valley – Game Warden – Sea Dragon – Crimp – Masher/White Wing – Suoi Bong Trang – Cu Nghi – Kim Son Valley – A Shau – Birmingham – Xa Cam My – 1st Dong Ha – Wahiawa – Hastings – Minh Thanh Road – Prairie – Đức Cơ – Long Tần – Beaver Cage – Attleboro – Bong Son – Tân Sơn Nhứt airbase – LZ Bird – Deckhouse Five – Cedar Falls – Tuscaloosa – Tra Binh Dong – Bribie – Junction City – Francis Marion – Union – Hill 881 – 2nd Ap Bac – 1st Con Thien – Malheur I and Malheur II – Baker – Nine Days in May – Union II – Vinh Huy – Buffalo – 2nd Con Thien – July Two – Hong Kil Dong – Swift – Dong Son – Wheeler/Wallowa – 3rd Con Thien – Medina – Ông Thanh – 1st Loc Ninh – Dak To – Mekong Delta – Tam Quan – Thom Tham Khe – Phoenix – Khe Sanh – Ban Houei Sane – Bien Hoa – 1st Tet – 1st Saigon – Huế – Lang Vei – Lima Site 85 – Toan Thang I – Delaware – 2nd Dong Ha – May '68 – Kham Duc – Coral-Balmoral – Duc Lap – Sealords – Speedy Express – Dewey Canyon – Taylor Common – 2nd Tet – Apache Snow – Hamburger Hill – Twinkletoes – Binh Ba – LZ Kate – Bu Prang – Texas Star – Chicago Peak – Khe Gio Bridge – Cambodia – Kompong Speu – Prey Veng – Snuol – FSB Ripcord – Tailwind – Chenla I – Jefferson Glenn – Son Tay Raid – Lam Son 719 – Chenla II – Ban Dong – Hill 723 – FSB Mary Ann – Long Khanh – Easter '72 – 1st Quảng Trị – 2nd Loc Ninh – An Lộc – Đồng Hới – 3rd Dong Ha – Kontum – Thunderhead – 2nd Quảng Trị – End Sweep – Hoang Sa – Iron Triangle – Svay Rieng – Phuoc Long – Ho Chi Minh – Buôn Ma Thuột – Xuân Lộc – Truong Sa – 2nd Saigon – SS Mayagüez

Air operations
Farm Gate – Chopper – Ranch Hand – Pierce Arrow – Barrel Roll – Pony Express – Flaming Dart – Iron Hand - Rolling Thunder – Steel Tiger – Arc Light – Tiger Hound – Shed Light – Carolina Moon – Bolo – Popeye – Niagara – Igloo White – Giant Lance – Commando Hunt – Menu – Patio – Freedom Deal – Linebacker I – Enhance Plus – Linebacker II – Homecoming – Babylift – New Life – Eagle Pull – Frequent Wind

Operation Tailwind was a covert incursion into southeastern Laos by a company-sized element of U.S. Army Special Forces and Montagnard commando (Hatchet Force) of the Military Assistance Command, Vietnam Studies and Observations Group (MACV-SOG or SOG), conducted between 11 September and 13 September 1970 during the Vietnam War (also known as the Second Indochina War). The purpose of the operation was to create a diversion for a Royal Lao Army offensive and to exert pressure on the occupation forces of the People's Army of Vietnam (PAVN).

Nearly 30 years later, Peter Arnett narrated a CNN/Time Magazine report produced by April Oliver, Jack Smith, Pam Hill, and others. The "Valley of Death" report claimed sarin nerve gas had been used, and other war crimes had been committed by U.S. forces during Tailwind, kicking off a controversy that ended in retraction of the claim by both news organizations and purging all staff members responsible for it.
Contents
[hide]

* 1 Operation
* 2 Controversy
o 2.1 Fallout
* 3 References
* 4 External links

[edit] Operation
For more details on the covert organization, see Military Assistance Command, Vietnam Studies and Observations Group.

During late 1970 the overall U.S.-supported military effort in the covert war in the Kingdom of Laos was foundering. Operation Gauntlet, a multi-battalion Royal Lao Army offensive that was to determine the fate of Paksong and the strategic Bolovens Plateau, was failing. A call went out to SOG's Saigon headquarters asking if the highly-classified unit could insert an element near Chavane and disrupt PAVN defenses. Colonel John Sadler, SOG's commander, replied in the affirmative, even though none of his cross-border reconnaissance teams had ever operated so deep in Laos. Indeed, the target area was 20 miles (30 km) beyond the unit's authorized area of operations.

The mission was launched by three platoons of Command and Control Central's (Kontum) Hatchet Company B and two U.S. Air Force Pathfinder Teams. The 16 Americans and 110 Montagnards, under the command of Captain Eugene McCarley were heli-lifted from a launch site at Dak To to a landing zone (LZ) in a valley 60 miles (100 km) to the west, near Chavane. The distance to the target was so great that the men were lifted by three U.S. Marine Corps CH-53 Sea Stallion helicopters, escorted by 12 AH-1 Cobra gunships.

McCarley then called down airstrikes on enemy troop dispositions and equipment caches. The North Vietnamese responded by trying to concentrate their forces, but the U.S. troops kept on the move, even at night.

On the morning of the third day the Americans overran an enemy bivouac and killed 54 PAVN troops. Why the enemy had not fled was a quandary until members of the Hatchet Force discovered a bunker buried beneath 12 feet of earth. Inside they found a huge cache of maps and documents. They had overrun the PAVN logistical headquarters that controlled all of Laotian Route 165. Two footlockers were quickly filled with the intelligence haul, and the Hatchet Force then began to look for a way out. The North Vietnamese were closing in, but McCarley, instead of moving toward an LZ large enough for the extraction of the entire force, dropped off elements at three separate (and smaller) landing zones, catching the North Vietnamese unprepared.

Casualties incurred during the operation amounted to three Montagnards killed in action and 33 wounded while all 16 Americans were wounded. Many more men of the Hatchet Force would have died had it not been for the efforts of SOG medic Sergeant Gary Rose, who was recommended for the Medal of Honor for his actions.

Actions taken during the extraction operations later came under fierce dispute. Allegations were made that U.S. aircraft, in an unprecedented reversal of policy and breach of international treaties, had utilized sarin nerve gas ("GB" in US/NATO nomenclature) when North Vietnamese ground troops began to attack the LZs. Indeed, it was not disputed that some chemical agent was utilized, nor that both North Vietnamese and American soldiers struggled against its effects. However, most witnesses, sworn and unsworn, stated categorically that only a potent tear gas (most probably a CN/CS mixture) was used. Others, according to two members of the U.S. media, insisted it was sarin, or a combination of tear gas and sarin.[1]
[edit] Controversy

On 7 June 1998 a controversial version of the above events was broadcast during the premiere of the Cable News Network's NewsStand CNN & Time in a report entitled Valley of Death. The segment alleged that Operation Tailwind had been devised simply to eliminate a group of Americans who had defected to the enemy and were holed up in a Laotian village. The broadcast went on to claim that sarin had been utilized during the operation. According to Valley of Death, the agent had been sprayed from aircraft twice—once to prep the village and once during the extraction. It also claimed that over 100 men, women, and children had been killed during the attack on the village.

The broadcast (and the ensuing 15 June Time magazine article) seemed to have reliable credentials. Admiral Thomas Moorer, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the time of Tailwind, stated that nerve agents had been used, and not just during this operation. Former SOG Lieutenant Robert Van Buskirk (one of the three platoon leaders) and three of the participating SOG sergeants allegedly lent testimony to support the allegations as edited and presented in the televised and published investigative report.

Van Buskirk stated that the Hatchet Force was exposed on the Landing Zone ("LZ") when the teargas agent was deployed to drive the enemy back. He also stated that he saw his men (who were not equipped with gas masks) convulsing when the wind blew the agent back upon the LZ. One key point of proof was missing from the broadcast: the North Vietnamese Army, who had chemical warfare units stationed in southern Laos at the time, made no comment on what would have been a propaganda coup of gigantic proportions.

The reports, which indicated that war crimes had been committed, caused the Pentagon to launch its own investigation. It concluded the claims made in the program were false. Van Buskirk, it seemed, had forgotten the episode for 24 years and had only recently recalled his repressed memory and was also suffering from psychological problems. Admiral Moorer was 86 years old at the time of the story and living under assisted-care retirement.
[edit] Fallout

CNN and Time magazine then undertook an internal investigation which, after three weeks, concluded that the journalism was "flawed" and the report should be publicly retracted and apologies made. Two key CNN producers of the report, April Oliver and Jack Smith, were fired outright. Senior producer Pam Hill resigned. Reporter Peter Arnett was reprimanded and soon left for HDNet and then NBC.

New York attorney Floyd Abrams had urged CNN/Time Warner to retract the report, whilst acknowledging that it may have had truth to it, saying:

“It doesn’t necessarily mean that the story isn’t true,” Abrams insisted. “Who knows? Someday we might find other information. And, you know, maybe someday I’ll be back here again, having done another report saying that, ‘You know what? It was all true.’”

[2]

The producers, Oliver and Smith, were chastised but unrepentant. They put together a 77-page document supporting their side of the story, with testimony from military personnel apparently confirming the use of sarin. Active and retired military personnel consulted by the media, including CNN's own military analyst, USAF Major General Perry Smith (ret), noted that a particularly strong non-lethal formulation of "CS" teargas was indeed used during Tailwind, but that it should not be confused with sarin, which is categorized as a weapon of mass destruction by the United Nations [1].

In early July 1998, CNN News Group Chairman, President and CEO Tom Johnson issued a statement describing the findings of the internal investigation. He pledged acceptance of the findings and reiterated that the allegations in Valley of Death and related reports "cannot be supported." He said there was insufficient evidence that sarin or any other deadly gas was used, nor could CNN confirm that American deserters were targeted or even at the camp in Laos.

After their dismissal from CNN, Oliver and Smith ardently maintained the truth of their work and both brought lawsuits against their former employer. Oliver was the first to settle out of court for a reputed $1 million [3]. Smith fought longer but also eventually settled for an unknown amount [3]. By June 2000, less than two years later, none of the executives responsible for hiring and firing the two, including Johnson, remained with CNN.



So they were sacked for lying...

but received Millions in a out of court settlement

hmmmmmm


I wonder if US files were declassified and released... as happened to the KGB, what might be revealed




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 6:18 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
So you are arguing that the US did some stuff, but it is too small to worry about...



Too small for the ICC, with limited time and resources, to move to - or near - the top of their list. Then again, I haven't seen them going after the Al Qaeda and Taliban commanders who order suicide bombing attacks on civilians, murder of teachers, destruction of schools, etc, which would seem to me to be more egregious crimes than saying waterboarding was acceptable.



"Keep the Shiny side up"



Excellent point, hand all your Bagram and Gitmo prisoners over to the Hague, with all documentation, and they can trials for them too.

With all the money being spent, I'm sure some can be found for due process.

and investigators really need to talk to them anyway...






Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 9:01 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Just need to have the trial with a foreign judge, investigators, etc

They can use US law still right ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corrupt_Organiza
tions_Act



Under RICO, a person who is a member of an enterprise that has committed any two of 35 crimes—27 federal crimes and 8 state crimes—within a 10-year period can be charged with racketeering.


RICO offenses

Under the law, racketeering activity means:

* Any violation of state statutes against gambling, murder, kidnapping, extortion, arson, robbery, bribery, dealing in obscene matter, or dealing in a controlled substance or listed chemical (as defined in the Controlled Substances Act);
* Any act of bribery, counterfeiting, theft, embezzlement, fraud, dealing in obscene matter, obstruction of justice, slavery, racketeering, gambling, money laundering, commission of murder-for-hire, and several other offenses covered under the Federal criminal code (Title 18);
* Embezzlement of union funds;
* Bankruptcy fraud or securities fraud;
* Drug trafficking; long-term and elaborate drug networks can also be prosecuted using the Continuing Criminal Enterprise Statute;
* Money laundering and related offenses;
* Bringing in, aiding or assisting aliens in illegally entering the country (if the action was for financial gain);
* Acts of terrorism.


Well, maybe they didn't embezzle Union funds.... but then again


Pattern of racketeering activity requires at least two acts of racketeering activity, one of which occurred after the effective date of this chapter and the last of which occurred within ten years (excluding any period of imprisonment) after the commission of a prior act of racketeering activity. The U.S. Supreme Court has instructed federal courts to follow the continuity-plus-relationship test in order to determine whether the facts of a specific case give rise to an established pattern. Predicate acts are related if they "have the same or similar purposes, results, participants, victims, or methods of commission, or otherwise are interrelated by distinguishing characteristics and are not isolated events." (H.J. Inc. v. Northwestern Bell Telephone Co.) Continuity is both a closed and open ended concept, referring to either a closed period of conduct, or to past conduct that by its nature projects into the future with a threat of repetition.




LMAO

When the U.S. Attorney decides to indict someone under RICO, he or she has the option of seeking a pre-trial restraining order or injunction to temporarily seize a defendant's assets and prevent the transfer of potentially forfeitable property, as well as require the defendant to put up a performance bond. This provision was placed in the law because the owners of Mafia-related shell corporations often absconded with the assets. An injunction and/or performance bond ensures that there is something to seize in the event of a guilty verdict.


Hi, I'm seizing the assets of the US government

LMAO

How big would the performance bond be ? Would China sign off on it ?




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Monday, February 22, 2010 1:53 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I just find it amusing and a bit sad at all the thought,time and effort some here are putting forth for such a clearly ridiculous and pointless mind exercise. And that's all it is, and all it'll EVER be.

I like fantasy and fiction as much as anyone, but geeze....c'mon.



Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first.

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Monday, February 22, 2010 3:29 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Excellent point, hand all your Bagram and Gitmo prisoners over to the Hague, with all documentation, and they can trials for them too.



Also too small for the ICC. Just foot-soldiers. Some we could probably return to the Iraqi or Afghani governments for trial.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, February 22, 2010 6:09 AM

ELVISCHRIST


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
I just find it amusing and a bit sad at all the thought,time and effort some here are putting forth for such a clearly ridiculous and pointless mind exercise. And that's all it is, and all it'll EVER be.

I like fantasy and fiction as much as anyone, but geeze....c'mon.



Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first.




could of said the same for CPAC

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Monday, February 22, 2010 6:54 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Morning...sorta. Gino, I didn't go through your long list; I don't have to. I KNOW what you're saying, and I agree with it. I know enough of America's bullshit to know there are many; I don't have to know each one. My ONLY remark was about the ICC--and Geezer answered that for me. So we have no argument, except that the ICC is the wrong venue...and the fact that we can't do anything about any of that.

When you say "YOU", you're talking about our government, not "US" the people. The day your government engages in such things and you are able to stop or prosecute them for it, we'll have a basis for discussion. I do what I can, protest what I can, vote and contact my representatives. What else do you suggest?

If someone wanted to go back through history and list all of Britain's covert operations, I'm sure the list would be a least as long, if not longer. There's a book available on Amazon on just that; the blurb says:
Quote:

Millions of people have died as a result of Britain’s foreign policy. Mark Curtis calls these victims Unpeople – those whose lives are seen as expendable in the pursuit of governments’ economic and political goals.
In Unpeople, Mark Curtis shows the Blair government’s continuing support for many of the world’s most repressive regimes and, using unearthed evidence from formerly secret documents, reveals for the first time the hidden history of unethical British policies, including: support for the massacres in Iraq in 1963; Britain’s extraordinary private backing of the US in its aggression against Vietnam; support for the rise of Ugandan dictator Idi Amin; the prosecution of a covert, ‘dirty war’ in Yemen in the 1960s; Britain’s backing of apartheid regimes in South Africa; secret campaigns with the US to overthrow the governments of Indonesia and British Guiana; the welcoming of General Pinochet’s brutal coup in Chile in 1973; and much more.

This explosive new book, from the author of Web of Deceit, shows the reality of the Blair government’s policies since the invasion of Iraq, revealing that our military is poised for a new phase of global intervention in alliance with the US, while an extraordinary government propaganda campaign is being mounted to obscure the reality of this policy from the public.



Given your country's history is hundreds of years older than ours, surely you can extrapolate that their (not YOUR) covert policies and foreign policy blunders probably outweigh ours. The blurb begins: "When a nation's foreign policy is not subject to its citizens or humanitarian standards ..." It's true for both our countries. Have your people been any more successful at stopping or prosecuting them than we have? You want to be angry at a country, please start with your own before you blanket condemn ours, okay? Nobody here disagrees with you that many VERY wrong things have been done by both.

Everything seems geared to recent history that I can find in a quick search, and I'm not willing to search harder. I found this as just a place to start:
Quote:

In seeking to justify the war preparations of Washington and London, much has been made of the alleged stockpiles of chemical weapons held by the Iraqi regime. In fact the first government to use chemical weapons against the Iraqi people was the British, under the direction of Winston Churchill, along with many other assaults on Iraqi sovereignty.

Faced by a growing popular insurrection against its imperial dominance of Iraq in 1920, London carried out an aerial bombing campaign of civilian villages, described by one anonymous cabinet member at the time as the bombing of the women and children of the villages.

A year earlier, the high command of the Royal Air Force (RAF) had suggested to Churchill, then Secretary of State for War, that chemicals be used against recalcitrant Arabs as [an] experiment. Churchill readily agreed. I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas<.q> Churchill said. I am strongly in favor of using poisoned gas against uncivilized tribes.. It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gases: gases can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected.

The use of troops and extreme brutality has characterized the British rulers' whole relation with Iraq and the rest of the Gulf region. Their intervention in Iraq began in the mid-19th century, as popular opposition to the Ottoman empire opened an opportunity to seize it from the Turkish rulers.

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51/215.html

Let's not compare atrocities, shall we? Both countries have their fair share. Doesn't make one any better or worse than the other, or more in need of prosecution. And it won't happen in either case. End of story.

Elvis: Excellent point.



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Monday, February 22, 2010 7:34 AM

BYTEMITE


Oh, I figure eventually some back door deal will be made and someone will be sold up the creek. None of the big guys though.

If we want to go after the big guys in administrations and members of congress and the industrial/military/intelligence community, we probably can't do so within the structure they've built to prop themselves up.

So, we've got two options, 1) the American people actually stand up and start taking our government apart to cut out the corruption, or 2) we wait for TPTB to run everything into the ground, and THEN we have ourselves a trial.

As much as I'd like to believe there's still a possibility for one, mostly because I don't like to sit on my hands, feels a bit too much like being complicit, I suspect that everything is probably too entrenched and well equipped for the people to make a stand. But I'd like to put an end to some of the abuses and human rights violations NOW, before it gets worse/we do more, so we definitely got to keep trying. Even within that same system, because some people are damn scared of what might happen if we take it all away, and it's not fair for us to make that judgment for them.

But I have to say, seeing that I think number two might be inevitable no matter how much good people try to fight it, two might be the best option if it's justice you're looking for. In the event of a collapse, basic human decency might maintain laws regarding human rights for the general population, but I think I could make a pretty good argument as to the people who like to violate those same laws being exempt from those protections. >)

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Monday, February 22, 2010 9:02 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Morning...sorta. Gino, I didn't go through your long list; I don't have to. I KNOW what you're saying, and I agree with it. I know enough of America's bullshit to know there are many; I don't have to know each one. My ONLY remark was about the ICC--and Geezer answered that for me. So we have no argument, except that the ICC is the wrong venue...and the fact that we can't do anything about any of that.

When you say "YOU", you're talking about our government, not "US" the people. The day your government engages in such things and you are able to stop or prosecute them for it, we'll have a basis for discussion. I do what I can, protest what I can, vote and contact my representatives. What else do you suggest?

If someone wanted to go back through history and list all of Britain's covert operations, I'm sure the list would be a least as long, if not longer. There's a book available on Amazon on just that; the blurb says:
Quote:

Millions of people have died as a result of Britain’s foreign policy. Mark Curtis calls these victims Unpeople – those whose lives are seen as expendable in the pursuit of governments’ economic and political goals.
In Unpeople, Mark Curtis shows the Blair government’s continuing support for many of the world’s most repressive regimes and, using unearthed evidence from formerly secret documents, reveals for the first time the hidden history of unethical British policies, including: support for the massacres in Iraq in 1963; Britain’s extraordinary private backing of the US in its aggression against Vietnam; support for the rise of Ugandan dictator Idi Amin; the prosecution of a covert, ‘dirty war’ in Yemen in the 1960s; Britain’s backing of apartheid regimes in South Africa; secret campaigns with the US to overthrow the governments of Indonesia and British Guiana; the welcoming of General Pinochet’s brutal coup in Chile in 1973; and much more.

This explosive new book, from the author of Web of Deceit, shows the reality of the Blair government’s policies since the invasion of Iraq, revealing that our military is poised for a new phase of global intervention in alliance with the US, while an extraordinary government propaganda campaign is being mounted to obscure the reality of this policy from the public.



Given your country's history is hundreds of years older than ours, surely you can extrapolate that their (not YOUR) covert policies and foreign policy blunders probably outweigh ours. The blurb begins: "When a nation's foreign policy is not subject to its citizens or humanitarian standards ..." It's true for both our countries. Have your people been any more successful at stopping or prosecuting them than we have? You want to be angry at a country, please start with your own before you blanket condemn ours, okay? Nobody here disagrees with you that many VERY wrong things have been done by both.

Everything seems geared to recent history that I can find in a quick search, and I'm not willing to search harder. I found this as just a place to start:
Quote:

In seeking to justify the war preparations of Washington and London, much has been made of the alleged stockpiles of chemical weapons held by the Iraqi regime. In fact the first government to use chemical weapons against the Iraqi people was the British, under the direction of Winston Churchill, along with many other assaults on Iraqi sovereignty.

Faced by a growing popular insurrection against its imperial dominance of Iraq in 1920, London carried out an aerial bombing campaign of civilian villages, described by one anonymous cabinet member at the time as the bombing of the women and children of the villages.

A year earlier, the high command of the Royal Air Force (RAF) had suggested to Churchill, then Secretary of State for War, that chemicals be used against recalcitrant Arabs as [an] experiment. Churchill readily agreed. I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas<.q> Churchill said. I am strongly in favor of using poisoned gas against uncivilized tribes.. It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gases: gases can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected.

The use of troops and extreme brutality has characterized the British rulers' whole relation with Iraq and the rest of the Gulf region. Their intervention in Iraq began in the mid-19th century, as popular opposition to the Ottoman empire opened an opportunity to seize it from the Turkish rulers.

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51/215.html

Let's not compare atrocities, shall we? Both countries have their fair share. Doesn't make one any better or worse than the other, or more in need of prosecution. And it won't happen in either case. End of story.

Elvis: Excellent point.





Actually I have argued in the past Winston Churchill was a war criminal, you;ll have to talk about Citizen ... he is the resident expert on that one


Hang them all I say


So not the ICC, shall we reconvene Nuremberg ?

The fact that it has gone on so long, without any action... I am saying you

Someone has to be responsible, you own your government and everything it does.

BTW Canadian... not British

besides I'd be the first for calling out for the heads of our leaders if they pulled 10% of what you do every year


Now you see why we have terrorism, rule of law is dead




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Monday, February 22, 2010 9:08 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Oh, I figure eventually some back door deal will be made and someone will be sold up the creek. None of the big guys though.

If we want to go after the big guys in administrations and members of congress and the industrial/military/intelligence community, we probably can't do so within the structure they've built to prop themselves up.

So, we've got two options, 1) the American people actually stand up and start taking our government apart to cut out the corruption, or 2) we wait for TPTB to run everything into the ground, and THEN we have ourselves a trial.

As much as I'd like to believe there's still a possibility for one, mostly because I don't like to sit on my hands, feels a bit too much like being complicit, I suspect that everything is probably too entrenched and well equipped for the people to make a stand. But I'd like to put an end to some of the abuses and human rights violations NOW, before it gets worse/we do more, so we definitely got to keep trying. Even within that same system, because some people are damn scared of what might happen if we take it all away, and it's not fair for us to make that judgment for them.

But I have to say, seeing that I think number two might be inevitable no matter how much good people try to fight it, two might be the best option if it's justice you're looking for. In the event of a collapse, basic human decency might maintain laws regarding human rights for the general population, but I think I could make a pretty good argument as to the people who like to violate those same laws being exempt from those protections. >)




Well, there's always political assassination to effect regime change. We've advocated it before, as a nation and a people; don't see why we'd place our own leaders above the treatment we'd advocate for others.

'Course, we could also start with some mild torture, too, since we apparently have decided that torture isn't torture when Americans do it...

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Monday, February 22, 2010 9:25 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I agree with Nuremburg 100%.

Sorry, I have trouble keeping track of who's from where in this place.

You think we don't call out what our government does? Then you're either not paying attention or ill-informed. We do. And we protest publicly. Not that it does any good.

Okay, Canada. I don't believe your government begins to come even close to what our government does, but I don't know if you are aware of everything, and they've been doing the same thing that began our "cover ops" here for quite some time:
Quote:

Canadian spies have been conducting "covert" operations in foreign countries to gather information about threats to national security, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service admitted for the first time on the weekend.

"Events have increasingly required us ... to operate abroad," CSIS director Ward Elcock told a Vancouver security conference. "As a result, working covertly abroad has become an integral part of the service's operations."

CSIS "has been conducting operations abroad for many years," Mr. Elcock said, but such work has become more important now that the most troublesome threats to Canada's security originate outside the country.

"Extremists respect no barriers, either international or moral."

The admission comes amid continuing calls in the Commons and elsewhere for Ottawa to consider creating a foreign intelligence service like the CIA to operate secretly around the world, gathering information on terrorist groups. In the past, Mr. Elcock has responded to such proposals by saying a new foreign spy service is unnecessary because CSIS is already capable of working internationally and that it gets foreign intelligence from its allies.

CSIS has never before confirmed publicly what it said this weekend -- that its agents have been running covert spy missions in other countries, and that such operations have become a central part of the agency's work.

The statement came Friday night in Mr. Elcock's speech to the Canadian Association of Security Intelligence Studies, but it was initially muddied by uncertainty over exactly what he had said. Several people in the audience of intelligence academics and government security officials thought he had said CSIS was working "covertly" abroad, but the text of his address said "overtly."

Senior officials told the National Post, however, that the version of the speech posted on the CSIS Internet site contained a typo, and that Mr. Elcock had indeed said the agency was conducting "covert" foreign operations, although they insisted that should not come as a surprise.

http://circ.jmellon.com/docs/html/csis_admits_to_spying_abroad.html

Quote:

In the wake of the attacks on America on 11 September 2001, the Canadian government increased CANSOF’s budget by some $119 million5 as an integral part of Canada’s participation in the Global War on Terrorism (GWOT), with an intent to double the size of this unit to a reported goal of 600 personnel. Considering the size of the regular CF, as well as the demanding selection requirements for those individuals who aspire to become SOF operators, this is a most difficult challenge.6 The CF might have to shift the SOF recruiting and selection process, looking instead to reservists and to Canadians who already have the identified skills and capabilities. The creation of a reserve CANSOF squadron, paralleling a move made by a number of our allies, would provide a trained and operationally ready cadre of SOF operators, support personnel and staff able to augment CANSOF when required.

Tact and persuasive skills are also important for those involved in advising and training foreign militaries. Those not sensitive to the socio-cultural milieu in which they are operating will hold little local influence over foreign officers and their NCOs, many of whom might have had more practical experience. As one Special Air Service (SAS) operator noted: “You may advise the wily Afghan how to orchestrate a better ambush, but never say that they do not have experience in conducting ambushes.”

By their very nature, SOF operations are low-visibility, utilizing speed, surprise, audacity and deception to minimize the associated risks, while maximizing the results. These tactics, techniques and procedures (TTPs) enable SOF forces to accomplish missions that, in many cases, conventional military forces could likely accomplish, albeit with greater difficulty. Hence, they are a “force of choice.”

In addition, CANSOF-conducted initiatives, while requiring a relatively small outlay in personnel and material, would contribute strategically to nation building, democratization and regime stabilization in nascent democracies. Canadian participation in FID and military assistance programs would enhance Canada’s international stature while providing a viable and attractive option for those nations that might not seek assistance from the British or Americans.

http://www.journal.dnd.ca/vo6/no4/operatio-eng.asp

Welcome to the modern world. I am most certainly NOT saying they've done anything specific, but we started out just spying, too. Your country may be headed down the same road, who knows?

Now that I understand you're Canadian, it explains a lot about your animosity toward the US and the use of "your". Again; I have agreed with you on numerous points, and I think you have made clear how you feel, so why continue except out of personal antipathy? I'm not saying you shouldn't express your opinions or trying to censor you in any way, but respectfully, I see no reason to continue the debate.



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Monday, February 22, 2010 10:32 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by ElvisChrist:


could of said the same for CPAC




By electing Ron Paul as the top choice for President ? The mad doc will be 77 by the time Nov. 2012 comes around..... it's showing the old guy a nod of appreciation, but no one seriously is buying THAT.



Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first.

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Tuesday, February 23, 2010 1:16 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Interesting...

http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/rizkhan/2010/02/20102482154372
383.html




The ICC will go the way of the league of nations if it doesn't change its tune...



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