Berserkely is at it again, as usual. This has been an ongoing problem since the Govenator considered the education budget his own private playground:[qu..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Students, professors to protest education cutbacks

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Wednesday, July 26, 2023 19:26
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Thursday, March 4, 2010 10:27 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Berserkely is at it again, as usual. This has been an ongoing problem since the Govenator considered the education budget his own private playground:
Quote:

The media was out in full force in anticipation of today’s “Day of Action”: There were about as many news cameras as there were demonstrators at the intersection of Bancroft and Telegraph this morning as today’s protests against cuts to California public education got underway at UC Berkeley.

Crowds grew as the morning wore on, until Sather Gate was completely blocked by protesters chanting “No cuts! No fees! Education must be free!” and “Layoff Yudof,” referring to the deeply unpopular president of the UC system.

Picket lines were in effect at the Sather Gate, North Gate, and West Gate entrances to campus, and around California Hall, and are expected to remain until noon, when protesters plan to march from UC Berkeley to Oakland for a rally at Frank Ogawa Plaza, at 14th and Broadway.

http://www.eastbayexpress.com/92510/archives/2010/03/04/protest-underw
ay-at-uc-berkeley



At least they're not alone:
Quote:

A movement born of $1 billion in budget cuts to California's state university system has blossomed into a nationwide protest, as students and professors in 33 states will challenge administrators and state lawmakers to ante up.

Most of Thursday's demonstrations will focus on cuts to state-funded colleges and universities, which supporters say drive up tuition, limit classes and make higher education unobtainable to many.

A blog called Student Activism said in a Twitter update that 122 events are slated from coast to coast -- most on campuses, and some at state capitals.

Dissatisfaction, anger and an uncertain future have led professors and students to call for a day of action to defend education.

(more at http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/04/us.day.of.action/index.html?hpt=T2

Interactive map of states participating in protests across the nation today at http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/04/us.day.of.action/index.html?hpt=T2


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 10:39 AM

MINCINGBEAST


my heart goes out to these kids. seriously.

but amidst all of the protests, and anger, i do not detect an alertnative to the cuts. the message seems to be: cutting education sucks and is evil. ok. but what can we cut instead, and what are other ways to make up the short fall?

absent some other solution, the financial reality is that educational funding is being cut to the bone. protests, while emotionally satisfying, do not "move the needle." might as well protest being broke.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 10:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


They are working on other stuff, this is just what gets media. OUR problem is the govenator--he's put us in such a position that education funding now has to be cut, but if he hadn't had his finger in the till on it all along, we wouldn't be as bad off.

Education has to be a priority, to me. How about cutting some salaries outside education, like bureaucrats? Unworkable I know, but I'm allowed to dream. There are I'm sure many programs that, if they went through the budget, could be cut to produce funds...anyone ever see "Dave"? Okay, so I like to imagine fantasies as possible, but don't lump me with the wind who thrives on TV and move heroes, please!

Arizona:
Quote:

Ted Ferris said he'll be open to anything when he leads a panel to recommend alternatives to higher-education cuts as Arizona faces a $3 billion budget deficit for the coming fiscal year.

That's why the Arizona Board of Regents assembled the Fiscal Alternative Choices Team, said Ferris, former head of the Arizona Sports and Tourism Authority - to offer ideas.

"The regents just want to make sure, for the sake of higher education and education generally in this state, to include as many creative ideas as possible," Ferris said in a telephone interview Monday.



Nationwide:
Quote:

Already, 27 states have announced education cuts. In California, a state that teeters on the edge of bankruptcy, Governor Schwarzenegger has slashed $2.5 billion for K-12 education. New York is gutting $2.5 billion from public universities and colleges.


State leaders warn they have no choice. But cuts are not the only option. Rather, cuts are the policy demanded by big business in this situation. Over the past period, big business has fought for tax breaks and bailouts, inevitably paid for with cuts elsewhere, like in education

California:
Quote:

An economic recession, even a severe one, need not mean we are doomed to endure spending cuts in education and other services. It’s time to recall that it was in the middle of the worst of economic times—the Great Depression of the 1930s—that Americans were able to win the most expansive increase in social programs by going into the streets to demand a reordering of social priorities.

If social programs could be established and funded in the Great Depression, they certainly can be now. California, like the nation as a whole, has enormous wealth. Unfortunately over the course of the last 30 years much of that wealth has been flowing upwards from working and middle class families to the corporations and the wealthiest 10 percent of the population. Recent Congressional Budget Office reports indicate that in 2005 the income of the wealthiest 3 million Americans was approximately equal to that of the bottom 166 million.

It's a start...


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 11:19 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Unfortunately, their protests are not going to produce much. California has more problems than probably any other state......gigantic budget deficit, un-funded union pension deals for eternity, energy shortages, bankrupt health system, bankrupt cities, a declining tax base, and out of control illegal immigration. And now the Legislature, in its' infinite wisdom, has come up with a great new plan....Make cursing illegal, and issue fines to people for bad language! I'm not joking, there is a measure in the Captol now to do just that. In many ways it's a look into the possible future of America.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 11:25 AM

MINCINGBEAST


i have friends, berzerklers, at the protests, and their suggestion is basically: RAISE TEH TAXES ON TEH CORPORATIONS! so, not really an alterantive, though i recognize they don't speak for the larger protests.

and granted, i generally think that protests are not necessarily the most persuasive tools.

the anti-cursing stuff is part of a large phenomenon of commemorative legislation. you know, the process that brought you national avocado day, and trans-gender-appreciation-awareness-and-guilt week. now we have talk like a school marm week! this stuff is popular, because it 1) involves glad handling 2) allows for pious bloviating and 3) costs no money. whats worse, is that the anti-cursing legislation is in part inspired by a high school student's crusade against colorful language. the little bitch.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 11:27 AM

JONGSSTRAW


You owe Arnold $10!

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 11:44 AM

MINCINGBEAST


in other news, california's funding short fall was solved today by the state's new anti-cursing legislation.

"i can't fucking beleive that the goddamn state of California sent me a bill for 5 billion fucking dollars," said mincingbeast. "Might as well try to squeeze jizz from a stone, assholes. I would like to invite all Californians, collectively, to kiss my goddamn ass."

Mincingbeast later specified that he was reffering to "the bad part of his ass."

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 12:08 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


California is largely a victim it's constitution - and a Ronald Reagan mindset.

By constitution, California isn't allowed to retain a meaningful surplus from the good years to tide it over in the bad ones. Bad move, there.

The constitution REQUIRES a supermajority to pass the yearly budget. Every single year. (California. A constitutional provision dating back to 1933 requires a two-thirds vote for general fund appropriations for purposes other than public schools)

The constitution allows for the proposition process. It was that process that gave it mind-numbingly bad Prop 13, benefiting large landholders (railways, utilities, refineries, commercial real-estate holders) who will NEVER see their property taxes go up - as property taxes are only revalued on sale.

That same proposition process created term limits for legislators - Prop 140 in 1990. That guarantees that only the best funded (read business-supported) newcomers will gain seats. Bad idea if you're looking for a legislature to represent the people.

It's that self-same constitution that allows bond measures to be put on the ballot. And they are ALWAYS pitched as 'something for nothing' b/c, as they ALWAYS proclaim - WITH NO NEW TAXES !

BTW - that Ronald Reagan mindset causes many problems. The idea that somehow taxes are the big evil, instead of a necessary function to pay for common infrastructure.


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 12:22 PM

MINCINGBEAST


fair points rue. taxes are the price we pay for civilization: this is not a new idea. in california, we seem to believe that civilization is something that we need not pay, nor work for, so long as we are californian enough.

californians generally evidence an absolute sense of entitlement, complete naivety, and stubborn belief that we can have all of the warm-and-fuzzy services that we desire, without paying for them. sort of the worst impulses of conservatives and liberals conspiring to produce a failed state.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 12:44 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Perhaps the school needs to spend its money more wisely...

Maybe eliminate some programs that may not lead to employment opportunitys for the graduates, perhaps other programs with similar themes should be merged together...

http://grad.berkeley.edu/programs/list.shtml

African American Studies
Asian Studies¹
Buddhist Studies¹
Ethnic Studies¹
Folklore¹
Jewish Studies¹
Near Eastern Religions
Rhetoric


If someone want to have a degree in basket weaving that is well and good... but public money needs to go to programs that have some public benefit...


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Thursday, March 4, 2010 12:56 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
And now the Legislature, in its' infinite wisdom, has come up with a great new plan....Make cursing illegal, and issue fines to people for bad language! I'm not joking, there is a measure in the Captol now to do just that. In many ways it's a look into the possible future of America.



Next they'll tell you to use the three shells!

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 12:56 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:



School fires entire teaching staff

ASSOCIATED PRESS
Last Updated: 10:50 PM, February 24, 2010
Posted: 1:44 PM, February 24, 2010

CENTRAL FALLS, R.I. — A Rhode Island school district has voted to fire all the teachers at an underperforming school.
The Central Falls School Committee voted Tuesday evening to fire every educator at Central Falls High School at the end of the school year.
It's the only school in the tiny, impoverished city north of Providence. Only about half its students graduate, and only 7 percent of 11th-graders were proficient in math in 2009.
The plan was developed because of a federal effort to makeover failing schools.
The Central Falls Teachers Union says it is reviewing legal options and hasn't decided what action to take.
Education Secretary Arne Duncan applauds the decision and says "when schools continue to struggle we have a collective obligation to take action."


Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/all_teachers_fired_at_underperfo
rming_X3nqPRBXONpxFpMSNritAN#ixzz0hFeHWuLk




They should stop their bitchin' and remember their place.



Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 1:11 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Next they'll tell you to use the three shells!"

How do you load a shotgun with three ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 1:26 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"... public money needs to go to programs that have some public benefit..."

I disagree with your very narrow definition.

In your example, education should stop at high school. Everything you need to know to get a job you can learn in high shcool, if the curriculum is structured correctly.

Or maybe you think college is necessary for SOME jobs that need higher learning. In that case colleges should only graduate engineers, doctors, people with learning that has PRACTICAL application. Theoretical mathematics ? Gone. Physics ? Poof ! Theoretical chemistry ? Erased.

Or maybe you concede that SOME higher learning that doesn't have immediate application should be allowed. After all, how can society make technological progress without people pushing the boundaries of the known ? But then you have created idiot savants, people who know what to do and how to do it - but not why, or if, in fact, it should be done. As long as the money is good and someone is willing to pay, is as far as the logic goes.

Well, maybe it might be OK if SOME people learned history, logic, and rhetoric. Oooey gooey soft stuff that addresses things like - what are we assuming ? How did we get here ? Where should we go from here ?

Or maybe, just maybe, a population that is truly educated is a better, more thoughtful, more aware society.

***************************************************************

BTW - this is from a person whose every degree is scientific.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 1:32 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"Next they'll tell you to use the three shells!"

How do you load a shotgun with three ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.



Not the reference I was makin'.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 1:34 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I was joking - I guess it was pretty lame.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 1:39 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"Next they'll tell you to use the three shells!"

How do you load a shotgun with three ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.



Saiga 12 gauge with drum magazine.





Only three? But it's got room for 30!




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Thursday, March 4, 2010 1:45 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


After all - why settle for one bird when you can get the whole goddamn flock !
Signed

Burt Gummer


That was pretty lame too, hunh ? OK, I'll go away now.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 4:19 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"... public money needs to go to programs that have some public benefit..."

I disagree with your very narrow definition.

In your example, education should stop at high school. Everything you need to know to get a job you can learn in high shcool, if the curriculum is structured correctly.

Or maybe you think college is necessary for SOME jobs that need higher learning. In that case colleges should only graduate engineers, doctors, people with learning that has PRACTICAL application. Theoretical mathematics ? Gone. Physics ? Poof ! Theoretical chemistry ? Erased.

Or maybe you concede that SOME higher learning that doesn't have immediate application should be allowed. After all, how can society make technological progress without people pushing the boundaries of the known ? But then you have created idiot savants, people who know what to do and how to do it - but not why, or if, in fact, it should be done. As long as the money is good and someone is willing to pay, is as far as the logic goes.

Well, maybe it might be OK if SOME people learned history, logic, and rhetoric. Oooey gooey soft stuff that addresses things like - what are we assuming ? How did we get here ? Where should we go from here ?

Or maybe, just maybe, a population that is truly educated is a better, more thoughtful, more aware society.

***************************************************************

BTW - this is from a person whose every degree is scientific.



I agree where you think I disagree

theoretical sciences, research, practical engineering... all have very real public benefits


some of the other things might be good as a class, but is ridiculous as a degree program.

And if there is a place for it as a degree program, private donations and interest groups should foot the bill.

A BA in Jewish Studys ?



I'm all for people having a well rounded view of the world, I would argue that you do not get that rounded in school...

but if you are cutting back course because you can't pay for things...

Keep the things that have immediate value, if and when you can afford the basket weaving stuff.. sure why not. But to allow it to interfere with putting out doctors, chemists, engineers, etc

I think that is irresponsible





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Thursday, March 4, 2010 4:48 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I kind of agree ... and kind of disagree.

FWIW, at this point in time the majority of graduate students in the 'hard sciences' come from overseas. After all, the prevailing US attitude is - why work really, really hard at something if it doesn't make you rich ?

And then, many of the new-minted chemists I work with are depressingly narrow-minded techno-drones. Their attitude seems to be - I worked really, really hard to learn how to do this narrow field - now show me the money.

While I can understand the feeling that people should economize in tough times, I think ditching what we used to call 'fluff' classes, or even majors, would simply drive those above trends further. Those who will not go into the sciences or different types of engineering will go into business, and those who go into science or engineering will become even more myopic than now.

FWIW I came up through the 70s, when universities were tightly attuned to society due to the Vietnam War and the hippie movement. New degrees never seen before like 'Women's Studies', and 'Environmental Studies' were being offered. I even took those classes - they were interesting and helped me broaden my outlook. Otherwise I would have remained a provincial geek. And it didn't seem to hurt our generation any to have them.


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 4:54 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
And now the Legislature, in its' infinite wisdom, has come up with a great new plan....Make cursing illegal, and issue fines to people for bad language! I'm not joking, there is a measure in the Captol now to do just that. In many ways it's a look into the possible future of America.



Next they'll tell you to use the three shells!

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."




Somebody watched Demolition Man recently

John Spartan: [whispering to Lenina] Look, I don't know if you guys know it, but uh... you're out of toilet paper.
Alfredo Garcia: [confused] Did... did you say toilet *paper*?
Lenina Huxley: Um... they used handfuls of wadded paper back in the 20th...
[Lenina, Alfredo, and Erwin all laugh]
John Spartan: I'm happy that you're happy, but the place where you're supposed to have the toilet paper, you've got this little shelf with three seashells on it.
Erwin: He doesn't know how to use the three seashells!
[Erwin continues to laugh, then calms down]
Erwin: I can see how that could be confusing.


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Thursday, March 4, 2010 5:03 PM

GINOBIFFARONI



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Thursday, March 4, 2010 5:04 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I kind of agree ... and kind of disagree.

FWIW, at this point in time the majority of graduate students in the 'hard sciences' come from overseas. After all, the prevailing US attitude is - why work really, really hard at something if it doesn't make you rich ?

And then, many of the new-minted chemists I work with are depressingly narrow-minded techno-drones. Their attitude seems to be - I worked really, really hard to learn how to do this narrow field - now show me the money.

While I can understand the feeling that people should economize in tough times, I think ditching what we used to call 'fluff' classes, or even majors, would simply drive those above trends further. Those who will not go into the sciences or different types of engineering will go into business, and those who go into science or engineering will become even more myopic than now.

FWIW I came up through the 70s, when universities were tightly attuned to society due to the Vietnam War and the hippie movement. New degrees never seen before like 'Women's Studies', and 'Environmental Studies' were being offered. I even took those classes - they were interesting and helped me broaden my outlook. Otherwise I would have remained a provincial geek. And it didn't seem to hurt our generation any to have them.


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.




As a class, sure


But to take it as a degree?


Women's Studies... I think belongs as part of a social sciences program, not as a stand alone field...


cross field applications should be encouraged, but still be useful

Environmental Studies and chemistry

physics and engineering

hell business and any science degree


all these have niches that could make you rich, particularly if it was your passion



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Thursday, March 4, 2010 5:22 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I think we are mis-communicating. I don't think the individual purpose of education should be to get rich (money). I'm not decided about measuring the social benefits and costs of education. Should they be measured in money ? Is there a better measure ?

Anyway, I'm open to more discussion, but I'll have to leave it for another day.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 6:15 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I think we are mis-communicating. I don't think the individual purpose of education should be to get rich (money). I'm not decided about measuring the social benefits and costs of education. Should they be measured in money ? Is there a better measure ?

Anyway, I'm open to more discussion, but I'll have to leave it for another day.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.



Education should lead to something employment wise, shouldn't it ?

Otherwise we have people with educations partly paid for by society, then having to pay them unemployment... or coffee house employees with degree making minimum wage...

Maybe money is the wrong measure, I would say usefulness should be it, but that translates into money as well...

I thing degree programs should have applicable value, or be paid for %100 by whatever private interests that desire them...


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Thursday, March 4, 2010 6:27 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


So, no taking classes just for knowledge's sake? Hell, there goes about 80 hours of my course load... (all paid for by ME, thank you very much).

I often took classes "just because" - just because I was interested (but not because I wanted a job in that field - I knew I wasn't going to be a particle physicist or an astronomer, or a history or government professor). Some of those classes even led me off into different fields of study, which I'd have never been exposed to if I was ONLY going to school to find out what my job was supposed to be.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Thursday, March 4, 2010 6:30 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
And now the Legislature, in its' infinite wisdom, has come up with a great new plan....Make cursing illegal, and issue fines to people for bad language! I'm not joking, there is a measure in the Captol now to do just that. In many ways it's a look into the possible future of America.



Next they'll tell you to use the three shells!

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."




Somebody watched Demolition Man recently




Thank you!

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, March 4, 2010 8:24 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
So, no taking classes just for knowledge's sake? Hell, there goes about 80 hours of my course load... (all paid for by ME, thank you very much).

I often took classes "just because" - just because I was interested (but not because I wanted a job in that field - I knew I wasn't going to be a particle physicist or an astronomer, or a history or government professor). Some of those classes even led me off into different fields of study, which I'd have never been exposed to if I was ONLY going to school to find out what my job was supposed to be.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions





the point I'm trying to make


taking classes good, even just for fun

taking a degree program that leads nowhere bad


plus Mike, you paid the course fees... I'm guessing the school also received supplemental funding from state and federal sources which kept those course fees low enough to be almost reasonable ...

and that is really the money we are talking about,

But if you racked up three or four years ( or more ) of student loans, grants, etc to get a degree in Jewish Studies, or Rhetoric, or Folklore... then you graduate... then what are you going to do?

Classes good, but not the whole shot...

I have friends who did similar things...

then defaulted on their loans, worked crap jobs trying to get enough money together to take the classes they should have at the start...


its ugly









Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Friday, March 5, 2010 5:59 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Gino

Your question is very philosophical, but incomplete. Useful for what ? Productive to whom ?

Let me propose a hypothetical society. For lack of a better term I'll call them Karalians. Everyone who can works enough to meet their needs and have a measure of security, and to support those who are too young, too old or too infirm to work. No one is very rich or powerful, but no one is very poor and powerless either. These Karalians love art, music and dance. They lovingly pour much time into teaching their children to sing and play the traditional songs, to dance the group dances, and to create beautiful art to give away to those they love and like. It even may be a society you would like to live in, if you had the chance. So, after years of this effort, the children are grown. Should the parents now be asking - but are they useful ? Are they productive ? Why did we waste our time on them this way ?

In societies of artificial dearth like ours, your questions make one kind of sense. But in the range of possibilities, they are unnecessarily restrictive.


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, March 5, 2010 7:09 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


If govt would quit stealing $70-trillion/year from govt CAFR "pension" funds, nobody would have to pay taxes nor tuition of any kind. Govt has kept 2 sets of books since the 1950s, based on billionaire Al Capone's successful model in Chicago.

This proves how stoopid students and teachers are, who never heard of CAFRs, which are a censored topic for all degree programs.

Comprehensive Annual Financial Report for govt, a/k/a Annual Financial Report for universities
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5823209513192072459
http://cafr1.com
http://cafrman.com

Search your local CAFRs
http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGLS_enUS346US346&aq=f&sourceid=ch
rome&ie=UTF-8&q=cafr

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Friday, March 5, 2010 7:31 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Gino

Your question is very philosophical, but incomplete. Useful for what ? Productive to whom ?

Let me propose a hypothetical society. For lack of a better term I'll call them Karalians. Everyone who can works enough to meet their needs and have a measure of security, and to support those who are too young, too old or too infirm to work. No one is very rich or powerful, but no one is very poor and powerless either. These Karalians love art, music and dance. They lovingly pour much time into teaching their children to sing and play the traditional songs, to dance the group dances, and to create beautiful art to give away to those they love and like. It even be may be a society you would like to live in, if you had the chance. So, after years of this effort, the children are grown. Should the parents now be asking - but are they useful ? Are they productive ? Why did we waste our time on them this way ?

In societies of artificial dearth like ours, your questions make one kind of sense. But in the range of possibilities, they are unnecessarily restrictive.


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.




This is my point " Everyone who can works enough to meet their needs and have a measure of security, and to support those who are too young, too old or too infirm to work. "

Some of these programs produce at a cost, people who are not too young, or old, or infirm who still cannot meet their own needs, have a debt load due to their share of their education cost, have no security, and are unable to contribute to the security of others...


If these people REALLY need to go to that place, non government funded ways should be available to them...

Once again, Engineers who take art classes is a good thing

Chemists who study dance is a good thing

Lawyers who take cultural studies course is a good thing

taking a degree in folklore, defaulting on your student loans because the only job you can find after graduation is in a coffee shop is a bad thing

Bad for the person, who set themselves back years for an education that doesn't meet their own need for security or support. Bad for the government who invested in that education, likely bad for that persons family who threw money in as well, only to witness their " student " enter poverty as a result.




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Friday, March 5, 2010 7:34 AM

MINCINGBEAST


education is getting cut. there is absolutely no way around this short term, and there is plenty of blame to assign. nobody disagrees that cutting education hurts, but if any positive effect comes from the protests, it will merely be venting frustration with the economic reality we face. of course, i'd be frustrated too if the funding that puts students in seats was slashed, while administrators and other worthless bureucrats continue to receive lucrative salaries.

i'm with gino on this one. i don't not beleive that classes in say, jewish studies or african american studies are valueless. these classes, and majors, represent important areas of knowledge that are worth developing. but, as a fellow who earned a BA with very little applicability or carry over for a job, i can not agree that a degree in Literature is as socially valuable as a degree in Engingeering. while there are certainly "soft" benefits in having people exposed to these degrees, the fact is, certain classes are low hanging fruit.

EDIT: "taking a degree in folklore, defaulting on your student loans because the only job you can find after graduation is in a coffee shop is a bad thing"

crap, which i would've read that before posting my incoherent reply. excellent point! and the sad thing is, this hypo describes the majority of people that I know that came out of the UC system. it would've described me, too, had I not sold out and learned to enjoy the taste of blood.

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Friday, March 5, 2010 7:45 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Another point...

back in high school I remember having to contend with teachers with education degrees

and no experience or background with anything else...


I had a math teacher I cornered one day while working on some problems, and I asked " How do you apply this ? "

She didn't have a clue as to any practical use for what she was trying to teach... She was repeating what was in the book with no real understanding of it at all...

Education Degree, ten years teaching math... = Fail


Someone set a trashcan on fire in the hallway, and she didn't even know how to work an extinguisher...


Later, I went through Math Courses taught by engineers and designers... and my grades were higher.. I had a much better understanding of the material as when I asked " How do you use this " the answer would be something I could picture and relate to... which is how many people learn.


So even with both a education degree, and a decade of experience... was this teacher living to her potential, or did her education fail her even though it provided security...




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Friday, March 5, 2010 7:55 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:
education is getting cut. there is absolutely no way around this short term, and there is plenty of blame to assign. nobody disagrees that cutting education hurts, but if any positive effect comes from the protests, it will merely be venting frustration with the economic reality we face. of course, i'd be frustrated too if the funding that puts students in seats was slashed, while administrators and other worthless bureucrats continue to receive lucrative salaries.

i'm with gino on this one. i don't not beleive that classes in say, jewish studies or african american studies are valueless. these classes, and majors, represent important areas of knowledge that are worth developing. but, as a fellow who earned a BA with very little applicability or carry over for a job, i can not agree that a degree in Literature is as socially valuable as a degree in Engingeering. while there are certainly "soft" benefits in having people exposed to these degrees, the fact is, certain classes are low hanging fruit.

EDIT: "taking a degree in folklore, defaulting on your student loans because the only job you can find after graduation is in a coffee shop is a bad thing"

crap, which i would've read that before posting my incoherent reply. excellent point! and the sad thing is, this hypo describes the majority of people that I know that came out of the UC system. it would've described me, too, had I not sold out and learned to enjoy the taste of blood.



2 friends come to mind

the first took a degree in political science

defaulted on her loans after trying to pay them and live on minimum wage for a year... moved to Korea to teach English... last I heard from her


Another guy took a communications degree, sold computers for Dell for the next five years scraping by, paying his loans

He lucked out marrying a nice girl who works doing something computer related in the banking industry...



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Friday, March 5, 2010 7:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Rue, you nailed it perfectly about California, on every point. Prop 13 is a mess, and one of the largest reasons for our problems. Well to go back, REAGAN was a mess, and one of the largest reasons for our problems. Good old "trickle down"...

Prop 13 does help the elderly who stay put--we bought in 1975 and our property taxes are puny compared to today's values. If we sell, because of our age we can buy in county and the property taxes will not be raised on what we buy! It's lovely for a very few (and all those you mentioned), but it's been bankrupting the state for years.

The 2/3 majority is also a major problem, and why our budgets EVERY YEAR are late, people suffer, etc. We sometimes have good ideas in CA--other times we are just the crazies people think we are. I blame Reagan.

Mincing, while I agree with some, I've never seen any sense of entitlement in any of the Californians I know. Mostly I see a stronger willingness to raise taxes to pay for good things--like our high recycling rate, etc. Maybe that's just No. Ca., 'cuz I saw the same thing in the Santa Clara valley and SF. So maybe it's my OWN naivte talking...

Gino, I take your point, but happen to believe those courses ARE important. People need to be more “rounded” and not just turned out as working drones. Rue covers it for me, all the way down the line. I agree with you in principle, for what you’re saying, but I will continue to hold the belief that people need to be more well rounded and have the opportunity to explore their possibilities. I cam out of the junior college system; I took lots and lots of interesting classes, but I also took about four “business” classes. Those classes helped me gain a job as a file clerk, and I went up from there. A degree in anything BUT business would have gotten me there a bit faster, I dunno, but I treasure all the other classes I took far above the business ones. So I guess we come from two different places. For me, in today’s working world, it’s not as important what your degree is IN as what classes you TAKE. Tons of people with prefectl valid degrees can’t get jobs and have to start from the bottom and move up, despite their fancy degrees. I guess I’m in favor of expanding the human mind, as opposed to narrowing it. Just my opinion.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, March 5, 2010 8:02 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"... who still cannot meet their own needs ..."

As I tried to point out, we live in a society of artificial lack. People who do ANY job 40 hours a week are net productive in society. They ARE contributing more than they are taking. That we continue to suck value out of them to give to the already obscenely wealthy and powerful is a fault of our system, not of them.

But the system has corroded our humanity.

There IS no such thing as being poor, but wise. Poor, but talented. Poor, but inventive. Money is the only measure of our worth.

If you believe that, then yes, people with degrees that don't MAKE SOMEONE MONEY are a waste of human flesh. If you don't, then you will think otherwise.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, March 5, 2010 8:06 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"... Prop 13 does help the elderly who stay put ..."

That only happens b/c the major landholders - and I mean millions of square miles of land - will NEVER see an increase in their property taxes. If they were proportionally paying taxes comparable to the average homeowner, your taxes would not need to go up so drastically on resale.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, March 5, 2010 8:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, I fully agree. Was just mentioning how it does benefit people like us, given this IS the situation we live in. Just a teeeny little "aside", if you will.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, March 5, 2010 8:11 AM

MINCINGBEAST


Gino: My experience is skewed because I was a literature creep,as were most of my peers, but I honestly do not know anybody from the UC system that came out of my dept., and went on to working with their degree. We're talking baristas with a $30,000 piece of paper and a "broadened mind." had a good time in undergrad, and now face the reality of a cold hard world that doesn't give a damn about how well they know foucault. quite disappointing. if anything good comes of the current crisis, perhaps it would creating less of these unfortunates.

Rue: Prop. 13 has been a disaster for our state, and our schools. My impulse is to connect it to what I consider the Californian sense of entitlement. "I shouldn't have to pay property taxes that fund schools, but I am entitled to the best schools possible for my kids."

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Friday, March 5, 2010 8:22 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Prop 13 passed b/c, like most propositions on the ballot, it benefitted a group with power (in this case VERY large landholders) and b/c Californians are EASILY duped over the issue of taxes. All you have to do is whisper the word and people will rally to your cause - without bothering to figure out who really benefits and who really pays, in the end.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, March 5, 2010 8:22 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"... who still cannot meet their own needs ..."

As I tried to point out, we live in a society of artificial lack. People who do ANY job 40 hours a week are net productive in society. They ARE contributing more than they are taking. That we continue to suck value out of them to give to the already obscenely wealthy and powerful is a fault of our system, not of them.

But the system has corroded our humanity.

There IS no such thing as being poor, but wise. Poor, but talented. Poor, but inventive. Money is the only measure of our worth.

If you believe that, then yes, people with degrees that don't MAKE SOMEONE MONEY are a waste of human flesh. If you don't, then you will think otherwise.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.



Go down to a soup kitchen and see how many people have degrees and debt with no hope of employment that would give them security...


I knew several people who needed to feed themselves out of the food bank, with degree similar to this, and this was during a boom, not a recession...

the guy I mentioned who worked for Dell, worked 60 or so hours a week, living in a rooming house where he shared a toilet down the hall with the other folk living there up to the point he met his wife... was he happy... no ( not being snarky, I know of one suicide attempt )

Maybe it is the system, or society

But I see the waste of potential, the misery and the hurt

" There IS no such thing as being poor, but wise. Poor, but talented. Poor, but inventive "

Drop by a homeless shelter and I'd bet money you would find examples of all three


Talent, Inventive, Wise... just no hope


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Friday, March 5, 2010 8:36 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Gino

During the Depression well educated men were reduced to trying to sell apples on the street. Skilled workers were begging handouts.

Is your answer to keep people from investing in education or skills ? Or do you think the problem lies elsewhere ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, March 5, 2010 8:48 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:
my heart goes out to these kids. seriously.


But not your wallet.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Friday, March 5, 2010 8:52 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Gino

During the Depression well educated men were reduced to trying to sell apples on the street. Skilled workers were begging handouts.

Is your answer to keep people from investing in education or skills ? Or do you think the problem lies elsewhere ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.



With limited resources why train people in skill sets that statistical studies would reveal to be not in demand ?

If you need 50 doctors, why train 30, and 20 people in folklore... then complain about the shortage of doctors, the lack of spaces in medical programs, the lack of funding for programs, the taxes paid into education, the lack of social assistance for the 15 of the 20 folklore guys living on the street...

Target education funding and design programs which produce people with a better chance of success... And by success I mean to at a minimum be able to provide for themselves to a degree that offsets the investment made in their education.

Like I said, some people suffer for their educational choices even during boom times

Lean times, people need all the chances they can get...



Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Friday, March 5, 2010 9:09 AM

MINCINGBEAST


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:
my heart goes out to these kids. seriously.


But not your wallet.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.



my heart is as empty as my wallet, and i, as a grad student on the verge of graduation, am similarly situated.

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Friday, March 5, 2010 9:54 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"If you need 50 doctors, why train 30, and 20 people in folklore... then complain about the shortage of doctors ..."

You seem to think that economic supply and demand are forces of nature. They are not. Supply and demand are driven by what we chose to value, what we chose to withhold, what we chose to reward. They are all choices.

Since you mention doctors specifically, in 2007 in the US there were 2 applicants for every spot in medical school. Some people see this as a problem - perhaps the pool is too shallow. Other people see this as a bonus - surely there are more than enough applicants to fill all the places. Either way, the number of doctors isn't limited by the availability of applicants.

So why is there a doctor shortage ? If the 'laws' of supply and demand worked the overabundance of applicants and the shortage of doctors would work itself out quickly. But that's not the case.

Let's take another example: PhD chemists. This is certainly a demanding field, something which you would expect would produced relatively low numbers of people. And there is definitely a need - for materials chemists, biopharmaceutical chemists, petroleum chemists etc. Yet the going rate for job applicant PhD chemists with some experience in these fields is barely above minimum wage - largely due to the heavy use of contract and temporary work.

If the 'laws' of supply and demand held, you would not expect this result.

Now let's look at a hypothetical. There are 100 nursing jobs available. Every single person who goes to school gets a nursing degree. Does that make more nursing jobs available ?

In the big picture there are more than enough qualified people to do any job. There are more than enough OVER qualified people to do any job. What you are proposing is that people give themselves better weapons in this Roman arena we call an economy. And in the short-term, some people will do better. But by going that route you guarantee that overall, in the long run, everyone loses.

What I am saying is that there are other answers. Yes, they involve a major rethinking of what we assume. But the first thing is to not discount education - ANY education - as being somehow useless to society. If it produces more thoughtful people, then society has benefited.

***************************************************************

And now I have to leave. I expect to be back next week, and look forward to more discussion - if not on this topic, then on some other.

Good luck to all.

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Friday, March 5, 2010 9:59 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

With limited resources why train people in skill sets that statistical studies would reveal to be not in demand ?
WHAT limited resources?

Sure we're short of food, water, trees, wildlands, clean air and clean ocean. But we're not short of people. People train people. People learn from people. THAT we have plenty of!

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Friday, March 5, 2010 10:17 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
WHAT limited resources?

Sure we're short of food, water, trees, wildlands, clean air and clean ocean. But we're not short of people. People train people. People learn from people. THAT we have plenty of!


Actually people do not train people. People learn from trained employees (professors, doctors, teachers, etc). Employees drawing a salary and benefits train people. Employees sitting in rooms with electric lights and chalk boards...perhaps computers or other essential equipment train people.

So lots of people. Little money for salary, benefits, buildings and support services all of which are essential for training people...unless you're training people to be unskilled workers. That you can do with the resource you describe (people).

You can have all the people in the world available to teach computer programming...but if your resources are limited to people and perhaps some sticks and dirt, your future computer programmer is going to end up picking fruit to earn a living.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Friday, March 5, 2010 10:58 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Just a quick reply and then gone - but all those THINGS you point to as an example of resources - electricity and light bulbs, buildings and clean halls, computers and chalk, and invention - are a result of - somebody's effort. Iron is just a rock in the ground until somebody mines it, somebody transports it, somebody smelts it, somebody designs it, somebody machines it ... Those 'things' don't grow on trees ready to be plucked. They aren't found in nature. They are the crystallized work of many people. It still comes back to the 'resource' of people.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, March 5, 2010 11:02 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The "things" you need to teach people are trivial in relation to the required time and skills (people).

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