All the anger about health insurance reform confuses me. Because health care in this country is SO bad, given the games and profit-motive-based actions ..."/>

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Health care reform...why not?

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Thursday, March 11, 2010 09:40
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Monday, March 8, 2010 11:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


All the anger about health insurance reform confuses me. Because health care in this country is SO bad, given the games and profit-motive-based actions of the for-profit insurance companies are out there, every day, on the news, showing all the problems. Why are so many people so vociferous in their hatred of reform? Is it just the Dems and Obama? Is it uneducation? Is it fear of government-run health care? Is it the old "I've got mine; screw you" attitude? Why are so many in denial about the atrocious actions of our for-profit health insurers and so unwilling to conceive of reform? It's all around you; it's undeniable; it is ruining our country. Why won't people take the time to read a few of the facts, and instead keep repeating the lies we're inundated with? This is just a small taste; read it and tell me we don't need health insurance reform. I dare anyone to read all of this and defend our for-profit health insurance system.
Quote:

Health insurers have forced consumers to pay billions of dollars in medical bills that the insurers themselves should have paid, according to a report released yesterday by the staff of the Senate Commerce Committee.

Three health-care specialists testified that insurers go to great lengths to avoid responsibility for sick people, use deliberately incomprehensible documents to mislead consumers about their benefits, and sell "junk" policies that do not cover needed care.

The star witness at the hearing was a former public relations executive for major health insurers whose testimony boiled down to this: Don't trust the insurers.

"The industry and its backers are using fear tactics, as they did in 1994, to tar a transparent and accountable -- publicly accountable -- health-care option," said Wendell Potter, who until early last year was vice president for corporate communications at the big insurer Cigna.

Potter said he worries "that the industry's charm offensive, which is the most visible part of duplicitous and well-financed PR and lobbying campaigns, may well shape reform in a way that benefits Wall Street far more than average Americans."

Insurers make paperwork confusing because "they realize that people will just simply give up and not pursue it" if they think they have been shortchanged, Potter said.

The report released yesterday alleges that insurers have systematically underpaid for out-of-network care. The issue had been brought to light previously in litigation, committee hearings and other investigations, including a probe by New York Attorney General Andrew M. Cuomo. Cuomo described it last year as "a scheme by health insurers to defraud consumers by manipulating reimbursement rates."

As it turns out, insurers typically used numbers from Ingenix, a wholly owned subsidiary of the big insurer UnitedHealth Group. Ingenix had an incentive to produce benchmarks that low-balled usual and customary rates and shifted costs from insurers to their customers, the report said.

Insurers that contributed information to Ingenix often "scrubbed" their data to remove high charges, and Ingenix further manipulated the numbers, removing valid high charges from its calculations, the report said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/24/AR2009
062401636.html
recent article in the National Journal has detailed some of the money spent to try to stop, slow down or derail healthcare reform. The sums are staggering. Some on Capitol Hill are calling for investigations. Why? We know that insurance companies have used every tool at their disposal because they had to. A robust national healthcare plan (public option) would cost the health insurance business billions of dollars. If they are found with their hand in the cookie jar, the American people will be — upset. From their standpoint, so what? It isn’t as if the American people are going to stop using health insurance.

http://www.whereistheoutrage.net/wordpress/2010/01/14/insurance-compan
ies-tried-to-rig-the-game/
of the nation's biggest health insurers began quietly pumping big money into third-party television ads aimed at killing or significantly modifying the major health reform bills moving through Congress.

That money, between $10 million and $20 million, came from Aetna, Cigna, Humana, Kaiser Foundation Health Plans, UnitedHealth Group and Wellpoint, according to two health care lobbyists familiar with the transactions. The companies are all members of the powerful trade group America's Health Insurance Plans.

The funds were solicited by AHIP and funneled to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce to help underwrite tens of millions of dollars of television ads by two business coalitions set up and subsidized by the chamber. Each insurer kicked in at least $1 million and some gave multimillion-dollar donations.

http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=50421 past weekend, a New York Times story provided a frightening lesson about the individual insurance market. Most of us get health insurance through our job, but those who aren’t so lucky and don’t qualify for public coverage are often left with little choice other than buying insurance directly from an insurance company – this is known as the “individual market.”

The individual market is a place where insurance companies have complete and total power - subject only to a set of skimpy regulations in most states. In the individual market, it is generally legal for an insurance company to deny coverage to someone with a pre-existing health condition or to sell them a stripped-down policy that doesn’t cover the condition. Alternatively, an insurer might just charge someone with a pre-existing condition more for their health insurance. They may also be allowed to charge more depending on a person’s gender, age, or occupation. (Gender you say? Yep, in 40 states and the District of Columbia, it is legal for insurers to charge women and men different rates for the exact same health insurance policy).
http://nwlc.blogs.com/womenstake/2008/06/had-a-c-section.html state's largest for-profit health insurer is asking California physicians to look for conditions it can use to cancel their new patients' medical coverage.

Blue Cross of California is sending physicians copies of health insurance applications filled out by new patients, along with a letter advising them that the company has a right to drop members who fail to disclose "material medical history," including "pre-existing pregnancies."

"Any condition not listed on the application that is discovered to be pre-existing should be reported to Blue Cross immediately," the letters say. The Times obtained a copy of a letter that was aimed at physicians in large medical groups.

The letter wasn't going down well with physicians. "We're outraged that they are asking doctors to violate the sacred trust of patients to rat them out for medical information that patients would expect their doctors to handle with the utmost secrecy and confidentiality," said Dr. Richard Frankenstein, president of the California Medical Assn.

Patients "will stop telling their doctors anything they think might be a problem for their insurance and they don't think matters for their current health situation," he said. "But they didn't go to medical school, and there are all kinds of obscure things that could be very helpful to a doctor."
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/feb/12/business/fi-bluecross12 patients with traumatic injuries, such as car crashes, falls and gunshot wounds, were almost twice as likely to die in the hospital as similarly injured patients with health insurance, according to a troubling new study.

The findings by Harvard University researchers surprised doctors and health experts who have believed emergency room care was equitable.

The researchers took into account the severity of the injuries and the patients' race, gender and age. After those adjustments, they still found the uninsured were 80 percent more likely to die than those with insurance — even low-income patients insured by the government's Medicaid program.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33971846/ns/health-health_care/ the midst of a deep economic recession, America's health insurance companies increased their profits by 56 percent in 2009, a year that saw 2.7 million people lose their private coverage.

The nation's five largest for-profit insurers closed 2009 with a combined profit of $12.2 billion, according to a report by the advocacy group Health Care for American Now (HCAN).

"The outsized earnings are a vivid reminder that without comprehensive national health care reform, the gatekeepers of our broken health insurance system always will put the short-term interests of Wall Street before the needs of millions of patients and a national economy plagued by joblessness," the report said.

Insurance companies have also offloaded their most expensive patients by cancelling their policies and raising premiums drastically.

-Wellpoint increased profits 91 percent from 2008 while it chopped 3.9 percent of its total enrollment.

-United Health's profit increased 28 percent from 2008, while enrollment dropped by 3.4 percent.

-Cigna's profit increased 346 percent and enrollment dropped 5.5 percent.

-Humana's profit increased by 61 percent while enrollment decreased by 1.7 percent.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/HealthCare/health-insurers-post-record-pr
ofits/story?id=9818699
Quote:

You will sometimes hear the argument that if we have single-payer, universal coverage, that will lead to rationing of health care. Guess what? Health care is already being rationed. We just don't call it that. What do we call it? We don't call it anything. We just pretend it does not happen. We collude in this denial, because it conflicts with our desire to believe that we, in the USA, have the best health care system in the world.
http://scienceblogs.com/corpuscallosum/2007/09/another_health_insuranc
e_lie.php


Stories, reports, investigations are all over the place, we hear them almost daily. Why all the lauding of our health care system and denial that there is a problem which needs reforming?


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Tuesday, March 9, 2010 2:00 AM

JONGSSTRAW


The Dems are beating an already dead horse to a new death. Americans just don't want it, no matter how many times Obama or Pelosi or Reid tell us that it's good for us, and that they know what's best for us in spite of ourselves. The latest Rasmussen Poll (3/5 - 3/6) shows 53% of Americans against Obamacare, and only 42% in favor of it. Congressional approval rating is holding steady at below 20%.

Even Saturday Night Live took a few moments to weigh in on Obama's Healthcare push:

http://www.thefoxnation.com/entertainment/2010/03/08/snl-mocka-dems-pa
thetic-health-care-push

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Tuesday, March 9, 2010 2:53 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Jongs- Americans have polled over and over and over again THEY WANT THE PUBLIC OPTION.

What they're afraid of... and rightly so... is being force-fed into the maw of the insurances, with tax money lubricating the slide. The problem with Obamacare isn't that it goes too far... the problem is, is doesn't go far enough.

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Tuesday, March 9, 2010 3:11 AM

JONGSSTRAW


The only Public Option polls I can find are from July & August of 2009. The approved Senate Bill has no public option, and no one knows what's in the "new" plan once Reid and Pelosi get done with it. So how can one be in favor of something they know little about? Details? Costs? Personal impact? Billing? Benefits start?....Then just yesterday the CBO came out and stated that Obama has been in-accurately touting the cost savings...it's actually $800+ billion worse than thought :

"Obama Confuses Decades, Inflates Estimated Health Care Savings by $868B"

"Obama boasted Monday that Democrats' health care proposals would cut deficits by $1 trillion "over the next decade," a flub that inflated the actual estimate by $868 billion.
Making his final push for health care reform, pitched his proposal Monday to a crowd in Pennsylvania with a deficit-reduction figure that the White House later admitted missed the mark.

"Our cost-cutting measures mirror most of the proposals in the current Senate bill, which reduces most people's premiums and brings down our deficit by up to $1 trillion dollars over the next decade because we're spending our health care dollars more wisely," Obama told an audience at Arcadia University in Glenside, Pa., a suburb north of Philadelphia.

Obama was so proud of these cost-saving numbers in the latest version of health care reform, he delved into a bit of Washington-speak to back them up.

"Those aren't my numbers," Obama said to the rising applause of the estimated 1,300 in attendance. "They are the savings determined by the Congressional Budget Office, which is the nonpartisan, independent referee of Congress for what things cost."

But the budget office did not say the Senate health care bill would save $1 trillion over the next decade -- or even close to that figure.

It estimated the bill would save $132 billion from 2010 to 2019, leaving Obama's "next decade" estimate $868 billion short.

When contacted about this disparity, a White House official said Obama meant to say the Senate bill would save $1 trillion in its second decade -- a projection that would more closely match congressional analysts' estimates.

The budget office, in estimating possible second-decade savings of up to $1 trillion, also cautioned against putting too much stock in figures for a period so far in the future: "A detailed year-by-year projection for years beyond 2019 ... would not be meaningful, because the uncertainties involved are simply too great."

Nevertheless, Obama is pressing Congress to act on reform measures in the face of united Republican opposition and a Democratic majority that is nervous about the upcoming midterm elections."


On this issue, The Dems lose no matter what they do. 80% of Americans are disgusted with Pelosi & Reid, and I expect we'll see big changes in November.


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Tuesday, March 9, 2010 3:44 AM

SERGEANTX


Niki,

The reason the current bill is so infuriating is BECAUSE things are so bad. Things do need to change, but the stupid bastards in congress have managed to write a bill that will actually make things worse. The insurance companies have been controlling the reform process all along, ensuring that it protects their profits first and foremost.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Tuesday, March 9, 2010 4:45 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
In the individual market, it is generally legal for an insurance company to deny coverage to someone with a pre-existing health condition or to sell them a stripped-down policy that doesn’t cover the condition. Alternatively, an insurer might just charge someone with a pre-existing condition more for their health insurance. They may also be allowed to charge more depending on a person’s gender, age, or occupation.



This argument has always interested me.

If you were, say, a kitchen remodeling business, would you charge the same price for all kitchen remodeling jobs? If you knew that one would only require refacing cabinets and new countertops, and another would require demolition to the studs, new walls and floors, high-end appliances and a lot of custom work, would your business stay afloat if you asked the same money for both?

If you're forced to do all jobs at the price of a simple job, you'll go out of business. If you average all jobs and set that as the price, the folks who don't need a full renovation end up paying more than they need to, or going elsewhere.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, March 9, 2010 5:08 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
The nation's five largest for-profit insurers closed 2009 with a combined profit of $12.2 billion, according to a report by the advocacy group Health Care for American Now (HCAN).

"The outsized earnings are a vivid reminder that without comprehensive national health care reform, the gatekeepers of our broken health insurance system always will put the short-term interests of Wall Street before the needs of millions of patients and a national economy plagued by joblessness," the report said.



And we've already been over this one.

There is a difference between profit and profit margin.

For example, Health Care plans currently have a 4.3% profit margin. 86th on the list. Hardly egregious profits.

http://biz.yahoo.com/p/sum_qpmd.html

If you want to argue healthcare, please argue healthcare. There's plenty of ground to argue on the merits of particular plans. Quit with the half-truths, demonization and scare tactics.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, March 9, 2010 8:02 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


First of all, I didn't post any "half truths", demonizations or scare tactics. What I put up is what's happening today in our country. I can't find anything on the internet that says the health care industry gives better service, isn't harming our economy, doesn't leave millions without health care, or isn't leaving more and more people out of the equation.

You can check any or all of the cites and see if they are reputable, and if you disagree with any, I can probably find what you'd consider a reputable cite (as long as it's not from FauxNews!) that says the same thing. Those are the facts of what's going on in our country, I didn't make them up. Tear 'em apart if you want to, but be specific and post cites to corroborate.

Sig and Serg, yes, I agree wholeheartedly. It's totally wrong that they bailed on the public option, and I won't forgive them. I REALLY won't forgive them if reconciliation doesn't take out some of the most egregious stuff, and they don't go on fighting to improve it.

But as to the bill, yes, nobody likes it, and yes, I too think it's a bad bill. Where did I say anything about this bill? I do happen to believe passing it is better than nothing--we already went through that with Clinton, and if this dies, it'll probably be decades before anyone has the guts to try again. It can be amended and changed--I don't like it, but that's how I FEEL. And my question was the fact that our situation is BAD and needs to be improved somehow.

As to the health insurance reform and polls, the polls have been steady all along with a majority of Americans wanting a public option. THAT is a fact. Here are two recent 2010 public opinion polls on the public option:
Quote:

Okay, this should really give a boost to those arguing that Dems should pass the public option via reconciliation — for the specific reason that it will make the Senate health reform bill more popular.

A batch of state polls by the non-partisan Research 2000 shows that in multiple states represented by key Dem Senators who will have to decide whether to support reconciliation, the public option polls far better than the Senate bill does, often by lopsided margins.

Here’s a rundown, sent over by the Progressive Change Campaign Committee, which commissioned the polls:

* In Nevada, only 34% support the Senate bill, while 56% support the public option.

* In Illinois, only 37% support the Senate bill, while 68% support the public option.

* In Washington State, only 38% support the Senate bill, while 65% support the public option.

* In Missouri, only 33% support the Senate bill, while 57% support the public option.

* In Virginia, only 36% support the Senate bill, while 61% support the public option.

* In Iowa, only 35% support the Senate bill, while 62% support the public option.

*In Minnesota, only 35% support the Senate bill, while 62% support the public option.

* In Colorado, only 32% support the Senate bill, while 58% support the public option.

http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/senate-republicans/polls-in-key-stat
es-public-option-far-more-popular-than-senate-plan
/
Quote:

QUESTION: Would you favor or oppose the national government offering everyone the choice of a government administered health insurance plan -- something like the Medicare coverage that people 65 and older get -- that would compete with private health insurance plans?

FAVOR OPPOSE NOT SURE
OVERALL 68% 21% 11%
DEMOCRATS 82% 9% 9%
REPUBLICANS 51% 38% 11%
INDEPENDENTS 71% 13% 16%
CO-04 (Markey) 68% 20% 12%
FL-24 (Kosmas) 64% 21% 15%
MI-07 (Schauer) 69% 19% 12%
NC-08 (Kissell) 73% 16% 11%
NM-01 (Heinrich) 71% 17% 12%
NM-02 (Teague) 67% 19% 14%
OH-01 (Driehaus) 66% 26% 8%
OH-15 (Kilroy) 69% 22% 9%
OH-16 (Boccieri) 66% 23% 11%
VA-05 (Perriello) 67% 19% 14%

Even in swing districts, the majority of self-identified Republicans favor a public option. Like poll after poll, the numbers prove that the public option makes health care reform more popular, not less. The idea of a public option is incredibly popular with a broad cross-section of people, yet Democrats refuse to add it to health care reform as part of a reconciliation sidecar strategy.

http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2010/01/26/51-of-self-identified-repu
blicans-in-swing-districts-favor-a-public-option
/
Quote:

http://act.boldprogressives.org/cms/sign/frontlinepoll/

No doubt one can find polls going either way; this took a bit of time because I wanted to eomit polls from 2009, polls from what I know to be left-leaning sources like Washington Times, Huffington, etc., but I did my best.

I give you the profit margin statistics...they vary somewhat, but are generally within the 4% area. But this is "PROFIT" margin...which doesn't take into administrative and other salaries, pharmaceuticals, hospital costs, etc., which don't show in profit margins and many reports have pointed out that the health care received to gain this profit margin are reflecting less good health care results. The pharmaceutical compannies made a 16% increase in profit margin, as well ( http://www.usnews.com/money/blogs/flowchart/2009/08/25/why-health-insu
rers-make-lousy-villains.html
). It's the overall cost of health care that is the problem, admittedly, not just the health insurance companies.

The numbers cited also don't take into account the results of health care costs on the economy:
Quote:

It started as a dull throb in the economy, with the pain growing sharper. Now there's finally a diagnosis: Runaway healthcare costs are directly harming businesses and their employees.

As just about everybody knows, the cost of healthcare is rising much faster than wages, profits, and most other things in the economy. Healthcare spending accounted for about 11 percent of GDP in 1987; today it's more than 16 percent, and by 2017 it's very likely to be almost 20 percent. We spend more than $2 trillion a year on healthcare—roughly the same amount we spend on housing—and the cost is rising about five times faster than wages or overall inflation. Exorbitant cost is the main reason 47 million Americans have no health insurance.

Somebody has to absorb those painful price hikes every year, and since companies provide the insurance for about 60 percent of Americans, they're the first to get the bill. Some economists believe that businesses simply shift the cost of health insurance to workers, by offering lower wages to compensate for the costly benefit, and to their customers, by charging higher prices to cover the costs of healthcare.

A new study, however, shows that some industries have become chronically hamstrung by rising healthcare costs, with lower growth and employment than they'd have if costs were lower—or somebody else paid them. Researchers Neeraj Sood, Arkadipta Ghosh, and José J. Escarce of the Rand Corp. analyzed the performance of 38 industries from 1987 to 2005 and found that sectors where a high proportion of workers have company-provided health insurance—such as manufacturing, utilities, communications, education, and finance—showed the lowest growth over the 19-year period. Industries where fewer workers get company-paid health insurance—such as agriculture, hotels, entertainment, retail, and construction—grew more.

Since some industries naturally grow faster than others, the researchers isolated other factors that could explain the discrepancy. They also compared U.S. industries with their counterparts in Canada—where the government, not business, pays for healthcare—to see if the entire industry was suppressed because of global trends or just the American slice. Their conclusion: Rising healthcare costs in the United States have directly curtailed growth and employment. And the industries with the most generous benefits tend to be penalized for it. "Industries which provide healthcare to a large fraction of workers didn't grow as fast as industries offering health insurance to a small fraction of workers," says Sood.

http://www.usnews.com/money/blogs/flowchart/2009/08/04/industries-hurt
-most-by-soaring-health-costs.html


Also, those are overall figures, which differ from state to state:
Quote:

Indianapolis-based WellPoint as a whole posted a profit, recording net income of more than $4.7 billion in 2009, in part because of the sale of its NextRx pharmacy benefit management business, which accounted for roughly half of the company's profit.

That put WellPoint's profit margin at 7.3%, the highest of the five big insurers. Margins at the other four ranged from 3.4% for Louisville, Ky.-based Humana to 7.1% for Philadelphia-based Cigna.

Industry analyst Sheryl Skolnick, a senior vice president at CRT Capital Group, said many of the insurance companies would probably benefit from more customers in the long run.

But they are driven to raise prices for their health plans to satisfy investors, which in turn drives away customers.

"It is a terrible thing to run your business for Wall Street," Skolnick said.

"It creates very bad incentives, and it ultimately prevents you from doing the thing that is in the best long-term interest of your business. . . . There is no way that as long as these businesses are publicly traded, they can have the best interest of their customers at heart."

http://www.healthkey.com/a-z/health-reform/sns-health-obama-profits-in
surers,0,5279091.story


There is no simple answer. But given all the factors I find, there IS one simple fact: Our health care industry is affecting all of us one way or another, and it's only going to hurt us more as time goes on. My point is SOMETHING needs to be done; to me the public option is the only way to give insurance companies competition, and it's competition which would provide relief from rising health care costs and the effects they have on our economy, our country and our people. If anyone has better answers, I'd love to hear them; I don't like the current bill, at all, but I believe that if a first step is made, more will follow.

Yes, I focused on health insurance companies, partly because they are the ones behind fighting so hard to defeat reform...ANY reform. That seems to indicate to me that they don't want any competition, and what they're doing, raising rates, dropping people, only hurts the country and the people worse. If nothing is done, I see them getting worse, as they'll have seen for the second time that their actions have killed reform, which pretty much means they can do whatever they like.



"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Tuesday, March 9, 2010 9:08 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
First of all, I didn't post any "half truths", demonizations or scare tactics.


I pointed out two, which you haven't responded to.

There's also:
Quote:

Six of the nation's biggest health insurers began quietly pumping big money into third-party television ads aimed at killing or significantly modifying the major health reform bills moving through Congress.

Acutally might seem reasonable that the health insurers oppose parts of the pending legislation when you consider that one part of it would require them to insure folks with pre-existing conditions at the same price as healthy individuals - thereby raising costs considerably - and another part would prohibit them from raising fees to cover those costs without going through a currently non-existant bureaucracy. If you ran a business, how would you feel about the government requiring you to implement policy cahanges that would increase your cost, and at the same time prohibit you from raising prices to offset those increased costs? Think you might protest?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, March 9, 2010 9:52 AM

UNABASHEDVIXEN


Niki, you have asked the question I have been asking myself for months. The entire industrialized world is looking at the US healthcare debate and wondering what the problem is. Why wouldn't you want a system that's cheaper and provides more care? It seems like such a no brainer to me. The big thing that drives me crazy is that those who are opposed to universal healthcare don't really understand it - don't get that employers pay the premiums (tiny as they are) in a public, single-payer system the same way that employers in the US (if you're lucky) provide health insurance. But in Canada, for example, the highest premium you or your employer will ever pay is less than $100 a month. And it's a sliding scale - the less you make the less you pay.

We choose our own doctors, hospitals, etc. There's no HMO or anyone telling me who I can see and who I can't. So the argument about choice is a bogus one. A single-payer system is the ultimate in choice because all doctors, hospitials and so on are open to everyone.

Geezer: Access to healthcare is not analagous to home repair. Health is a fundamental part of quality and quantity of life. A new kitchen is not. In Canada and in many countries around the world healthcare is seen as a human right. By the way, for those of you who don't think you should have to pay for the healthcare of others: you already are, in the form of higher prices on consumer goods (ask manufacturers about the cost of providing health insurance to their employees), ridiculous insurance premiums, and lost productivity due to chronic illness and absenteeism. I frankly hate making an economic arugment because I think it's beside the point. But it seems to be the only way to get through to some people. Your system is broken and unbelieveably expensive. Why wouldn't you support a reform that would lead to cheaper coverage for everyone?

*
People before profits

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Tuesday, March 9, 2010 10:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Which two? I responded to the one about profit margins; I see no other. Show me any "half-truths"; the profits they are making are as quoted--yes, there's a valid point that the percentages aren't as bad, but the amount is real. As to demonization and scare tactics; what I posted is from other sources, it's not either one, it's the facts on one side of the argument.

Percentages of profits does not take into account the huge salaries; combine the two, and you get:
Quote:

The five largest U.S. health insurance companies
sailed through the worst economic downturn since
the Great Depression to set new industry profit
records in 2009, a feat accomplished by leaving
behind 2.7 million Americans who had been in
private health plans. For customers who kept their
benefits, the insurers raised rates and cost-sharing,
and cut the share of premiums spent on medical
care.1 Executives and shareholders of the five
biggest for-profit health insurers, UnitedHealth
Group Inc., WellPoint Inc., Aetna Inc., Humana
Inc., and Cigna Corp., enjoyed combined profit
of $12.2 billion in 2009, up 56 percent from the
previous year. It was the best year ever for Big
Insurance.
The outsize earnings are a vivid reminder that
without comprehensive national health care
reform the gatekeepers of our broken health
insurance system always will put the short-term
interests of Wall Street before the needs of millions
of patients and a national economy plagued by
joblessness.
The 2009 financial reports from the nation’s five
largest insurance companies reveal that:
• The firms made $12.2 billion, an increase of
$4.4 billion, or 56 percent, from 2008.
• Four out of the five companies saw earnings
increases, with CIGNA’s profits jumping
346 percent.
• The companies provided private insurance
coverage to 2.7 million fewer people than the
year before.
• Four out of the five companies insured fewer
people through private coverage. United-
Health alone insured 1.7 million fewer
people through employer-based or individual
coverage.
• All but one of the five companies increased
the number of people they covered through
public insurance programs (Medicaid, CHIP
and Medicare). UnitedHealth added 680,000
people in public plans.
• The proportion of premium dollars spent on
health care expenses went down for three of
the five firms, with higher proportions going to
administrative expenses and profits.

http://hcfan.3cdn.net/a9ce29d3038ef8a1e1_dhm6b9q0l.pdf

It's perfectly reasonable to have higher premiums for more possible costs, but the ratio has been out of proportion, changed dramatically from what it was before in order to increase profits. Now the only option left are "high-risk pools", and they don't work, from what I see:
Quote:

The biggest barrier to enrollment is cost. High-risk pools are inevitably expensive because all of the enrollees have medical conditions that could potentially result in costly medical bills, which means the pools cannot spread costs across low-risk and high-risk individuals. Despite attempts to cap premium rates, the coverage is still unaffordable for many. In fact, a recent study found that premiums for high-risk pools are unaffordable for about one-third of eligible individuals. High premiums and high deductibles are often a greater burden on individuals with expensive medical conditions who have already spent large amounts of their income on health care.

Some proponents refer to high-risk pools as “safety nets,” but in reality, the pools do not provide a guarantee of coverage. Most have an exclusion period—some period of time during which an insurer can exclude coverage for certain medical conditions that exist before the insurer issues coverage. These exclusion periods can last anywhere from 90 days to 1 year. Some pools cannot afford to admit more individuals; they either have waiting lists or are completely closed to new enrollees. In the meantime, individuals with costly conditions must go without coverage.

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2008/09/flawed_model.html

Also, regarding recent rate hikes:
Quote:

People facing those rate hikes are among the 26.7 million Americans who buy health insurance on their own. The coverage they get already is tenuous and expensive; it must be renewed every year or six months and costs more than four times more in premiums and co-payments than similar coverage under a group plan.

“These extraordinary increases are up to 15 times faster than inflation,” Health and Human Services Secretary Katherine Sebelius wrote in a letter to the company’s president.

http://interact.stltoday.com/blogzone/the-platform/published-editorial
s/2010/02/rising-premiums-shrinking-risk-pool
/ They are dropping people, excluding coverage and not paying on claims at an increasing rate to make a cheaper "pool" of insured for their profits, leaving many out in the cold and denying claims, dropping people and cutting their coverage off when it gets expensive unreasonably.

The concept of health care run the same way as any other "business" may be fine for you, but it is just plain wrong to me--especially as they have exemption from monopoly status that other companies do; other countries have recognized health care as something that should be available to all. We haven't, and as a result, millions of people suffer and die.

As to the opposition of insurance companies, it is the methods, the lying and fabrications that I'm angry with. They have every right to oppose, but it should be done above board and should be about the reasons they oppose it, not the way it's been done.

Rather than refuting the facts about what's wrong with our health care insurance, why not answer the original question: How can we deny there's a huge problem with what we have, keep the costs from harming our economy further (as it is doing now), and SOLVE THE PROBLEM? Two easy questions: Can you honestly deny we have a serious problem, and how do you suggest solving it? That's what I'm asking.

Even Rachel Maddow recently had a segment called "Don't Blame The Health Insurance Companies", because they ARE businesses, it's their job to do all these things to increase profits. It's some form of SOLUTION we need, not arguments in favor of health insurance companies.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Tuesday, March 9, 2010 10:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, thank you Unabashed...you were posting as i was writing my last response. I don't remember having seen you before, but your entire post was right on, as far as I'm concerned, and speaks to the initial topic: WHY don't we want it changed?? The anti-reform situation has been caused by misinformation, lies and scare tactics (as I was accused of using, which I didn't) which have brainwashed the American people to think any kind of government help is deadly.

I, too, don't understand it; given all the facts I've cited, I don't understand why, bill or no bill, public option or not, people aren't standing up and screaming that it simply ISN'T WORKING and we need to change it. It mystifies me, and it's the reason for this thread. I'm afraid it's devolved into debating the insurance companies, but as I said above, it's their JOB to make profits, but it's not working that way.

And on your most excellent argument, I will quit now. I've been here all morning on this or other topics, and trying to look up facts to cite. It's well past time to quit, and it seems obvious my question isn't being addressed, so it's time to give up, as well.

I envy you your country's solutions to this problem, as I envy all the other countries who are grappling with it and finding ways to solve it; I only wish WE were!


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Tuesday, March 9, 2010 12:05 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

posted by Niki-

But as to the bill, yes, nobody likes it, and yes, I too think it's a bad bill. Where did I say anything about this bill? I do happen to believe passing it is better than nothing



but why, if you agree that it's a bad bill? obviously this is a very contentious subject, but can we all agree that once they pass an entitlement we're stuck with it? look at social security and medicare, we're talking 10's of trillions in unfunded obligations. i think its wise to err on the side of less government intervention, not more. who's to say that government intervention didnt create the current environment? the laws that are established which benefit the insurance companies are passed by congress. my only point is, we need to be deconstructing this system and making it more local and personalized; not committing more money and creating more centralized authorities. thats the real crux of the debate

Quote:

--we already went through that with Clinton, and if this dies, it'll probably be decades before anyone has the guts to try again.


you mean try and push a public option? or reform in general? 'reform' is a legitimate issue, its not going anywhere(save a war/terror attack). its just you will never get 'conservatives', libertarians, or a lot of so-called 'moderates' to go for single payer government care. reform to them may be less government(ideally), more individual choice. and in hindsight, goverment projections are never accurate, these programs are always abused, and consistently riddled with waste and corruption. its not truly capitalism, or a free market, when the government is in collusion with private institutions/corporations, instead it just compounds the problem

and with the devaluation of the dollar and the inflation coming, we will pay a pretty hefty price for subsidizing health care for any and everyone. we dont have an economoy to support the growth to fund even what we have today

Quote:

It can be amended and changed--I don't like it, but that's how I FEEL. And my question was the fact that our situation is BAD and needs to be improved somehow


why cant we TRY a real free market in medicine? let the governmeent remain neutral, let the market provide the oppertunity for people to pay their own way- bring costs down by letting the ingenuity of entrepeneurs provide the competition. and not citizen-subsidized competition, but individual freedom of choice. sometimes i wonder that maybe, if we werent so heavily taxed and regulated, we could achieve these things


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Tuesday, March 9, 2010 12:47 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

The concept of health care run the same way as any other "business" may be fine for you, but it is just plain wrong to me



thats what it is though. we wouldnt have world class physicians, surgeons and the like without the profit motive

something interesting i heard senator Lamar Alexander say at the Obama health-care summit:

Quote:


“Now, some say we need to rein in the insurance companies; maybe we do. But I think it's important to note if we took all of the profits of the health insurance companies entirely away, every single penny of it, we could pay for two days of health insurance for Americans. And that would leave 363 days with costs that are too high. So that’s why we continue to insist that as much as we want to expand access and to do other things in health care, that we shouldn't expand a system that's this expensive, that the best way to increase access is to reduce costs.



i havent looked into this personaly, but it could explain the unfunded medicare/medicaid entitlement bubbles.


Quote:

-especially as they have exemption from monopoly status that other companies do; other countries have recognized health care as something that should be available to all. We haven't, and as a result, millions of people suffer and die.


oh, the bleeding heart. Niki people are not dying en masse. but if they were, it would happen under a single payer too. what about private charity? maybe hollywood can get together, in a sort of 'save Haiti' kind of operation an provide their own funds for the needy. why do the proponants of a public option insist on stealing from me? i can barely take care of myself, you arent 'helping' me by taxing me. as for these exemptions, if it's true, who provides them? the only institution with the authority, the government.

Quote:


why not answer the original question: How can we deny there's a huge problem with what we have, keep the costs from harming our economy further (as it is doing now), and SOLVE THE PROBLEM? Two easy questions: Can you honestly deny we have a serious problem, and how do you suggest solving it? That's what I'm asking.



i think youve heard the suggestions from the republicans by now, its just a matter of whether you subscribe to government intervention or free market capitalism


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Tuesday, March 9, 2010 9:34 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I came back here because something struck me while I was watching TV tonight. What the insurance companies are doing is excused by them being a "business". But that's not valid.

First off, they aren't subject to anti-trust laws, as other businesses are. That means they can be monopolies and pretty much do whatever they want, fix prices, etc.

Second; given the premise that they ARE businesses, and that's all that's available to people, is that right???

I can't think of a proper corollary immediately, but it's something like: Say there were only four or five super markets in America. Smaller ones can't make it because they can't get enough "customers". You have to eat, yes? So if your only option is a monopoly of supermarkets, and they can set prices wherever they want, is that right??

The point is: The American people have no choice but to get their health care from for-profit companies.

If you have a pre-existing condition; you are left out, so you die if something happens.

If your condition gets too costly, you get dropped, so you die if something happens.

If you can't afford insurance, you die if something happens.

No, you don't "die" officially under those scenarios, but studies show you end up in emergency rooms (which the rest of us pay for) and your chances of dying from lack of adequate care are much higher.

Medical care is something everyone needs, sooner or later. That's just a fact. So why should we go on letting companies whose business it is to make profits--at the cost of denying legitimate claims, raising premiums beyond wage levels, denying coverage for absurd things like babies that are judged too fat or too thin, previous cesearian (sp?) surgeries, dropping patients when their costs get too high, dropping patients because it decreases their profit pool, and on and on.

The point is: Don't blame the insurance companies, it's their JOB to make profits. But people need SOME OTHER O P T I O N!


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Tuesday, March 9, 2010 9:36 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


In response to your post:

As to having "world class physicians, surgeons and the like", the operant word is "world class", as in they can hold their own with the rest of the world. Most of the rest of the Western World has some form of public option or other, so that doesn't say anything. I can't find anything on the internet that says America has THE best of those in the world; if you can, please cite same. Added to that; given the damage it has done/is doing/will do to our economy and country, is having "world class" really worth it? Especially when it's been shown in other posts that we don't have the best MEDICAL CARE in the world.

As to people dying,
Quote:

Research in the American Journal of Public Health estimates that 45,000 deaths per year in the United States are associated with the lack of health insurance. If a person is uninsured, "it means you're at mortal risk," said one of the authors, Dr. David Himmelstein, an associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/09/18/deaths.health.insurance/

45,000 to you is obviously not a big number...that's one every 12 minutes. Sure, many die in car accidents, street violence, etc., but the point is this is preventable.

Obviously you don't care about how many go bankrupt over medical costs, either, so this probably means nothing to you:
Quote:



Medically related bankruptcies have been rising steadily for decades. In 1981, only 8% of families filing for bankruptcy cited a serious medical problem as the reason, while a 2001 study of bankruptcies in five states by the same researchers found that illness or medical bills contributed to 50% of all filings. This newest, nationwide study, conducted before the start of the current recession by Drs. David Himmelstein and Steffie Woolhandler of Harvard Medical School, Elizabeth Warren of Harvard Law School, and Deborah Thorne, a sociology professor at Ohio University, found that the filers were for the most part solidly middle class before medical disaster hit. Two-thirds owned their home and three-fifths had gone to college.

But medically bankrupt families with private insurance reported average out-of pocket medical bills of $17,749, while the uninsured's bills averaged $26,971. Of the families who started out with insurance but lost it during the course of their illness, medical bills averaged $22,658. "For middle-class Americans, health insurance offers little protection. Most of us have policies with so many loopholes, co-payments, and deductibles that illness can put you in the poorhouse," said lead author Himmelstein. "Unless you're Warren Buffett, your family is just one serious illness away from bankruptcy."

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jun2009/db2009064_
666715.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index+-+temp_policy+%2Bamp%3B+government


As to the antitrust exemption:
Quote:

The McCarran–Ferguson Act, 15 U.S.C. §§ 1011-1015, is a United States federal law that exempts the business of insurance from most federal regulation, including federal anti-trust laws to a limited extent. The McCarran–Ferguson Act was passed by Congress in 1945.

United States v. South-Eastern Underwriters Association (322 U.S. 533) came before the Supreme Court in 1944 on appeal from a district court located in north Georgia. The South-Eastern Underwriters Association controlled 90 percent of the market for fire and other insurance lines in six southern states and set rates at non-competitive levels. Furthermore, it used intimidation, boycotts and other coercive tactics to maintain its monopoly.

The question before the Court was whether or not insurance was a form of "interstate commerce" which could be regulated under the Commerce Clause of the United States Constitution and the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. The general opinion in law before this case, according to the Court, was that the business of insurance was not commerce, and the District Court concurred with the opinion.

In short, while not changing the opinion of prevailing law, the Court stated that the conclusion that insurance was not commerce under the law rested with Congress, and that the Court would follow the lead of Congress.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarran%E2%80%93Ferguson_Act

Things have changed dramatically since 1945, and even then, the dissenting opinion of Justice Jackson was, in my opinion, valid:
Quote:

Any enactment by Congress either of partial or of comprehensive regulations of the insurance business would come to us with the most forceful presumption of constitutional validity. The fiction that insurance is not commerce could not be sustained against such a presumption, for resort to the facts would support the presumption in favor of the congressional action. The fiction therefore must yield to congressional action, and continues only at the sufferance of Congress.


The public option wouldn't "steal" from you; if you chose it, you'd pay for it just like you'd pay for other health insurance. Because it would provide a CHOICE for people, and not have the profit motive and huge administrative salaries, would be cheaper and thus give competition to the existing companies. And you'll need health insurance sooner or later, trust me. If you can hardly take care of yourself NOW, wait until you get sick or injured!

Your joke about private charities is appreciated; let's leave it at that.

As to suggestions posed by the Republicans, some of them HAVE BEEN INCLUDED IN THE BILL, and immediately they were, the Republicans who proposed them, some who co-sponsored them in the past, proceded to reject them. They have stated VERY CLEARLY that they want no reform at all, and will go to whatever lengths necessary to prevent any.
Quote:

On a private conference call, a group of top Tea Party and conservative organizers offered a surprisingly frank description of their goal, according to a source on the call: Completely blocking any kind of bipartisan compromise, and completely preventing any type of health care reform bill at all from ever becoming law.

The call consisted of representatives of top conservative groups, such as the American Liberty Alliance, the “Tea Party Patriots,” and RecessRally.com.

The moderator on the call, whose name could not immediately be determined, told listeners that bipartisan compromise on the Senate Finance Committee, where senators are holding talks, must be stopped at all costs. The moderator called on members to pressure GOP Senators seeking compromise with Dems, like Chuck Grassley, Mike Enzi, and Olympia Snowe, to stop the negotiating.

“The goal is not compromise, and ANY bill coming out this year would be a failure for us,” the moderator said.

http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/president-obama/on-private-conferenc
e-call-tea-party-organizers-say-no-reform-at-all-is-goal
/

A couple of times different Republicans have stated it flatly: no reform. This was the only one I could find in a quick search; it's late and I don't want to spend any more time on this.



"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 10, 2010 3:06 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I came back here because something struck me while I was watching TV tonight. What the insurance companies are doing is excused by them being a "business". But that's not valid.

First off, they aren't subject to anti-trust laws, as other businesses are. That means they can be monopolies and pretty much do whatever they want, fix prices, etc.

Second; given the premise that they ARE businesses, and that's all that's available to people, is that right???



Now you're starting to see what's going on. The problems with health care aren't caused by a free market. The problem is that we've regulated away all the free market forces that should be there to keep them honest. Both health care, and health care insurance, are distorted markets because we've outlawed the competition that a free market requires to balance supply and demand. When you tightly control who can provide a service, customer choice is diminished and prices inflate. And when you heavily regulate an industry, success in that industry becomes more about navigating and manipulating government policy than satisfying customers.

The moral of the story, in my opinion, is that you can't mix capitalism and socialism. If we're not going accept the aspects of a free market that we don't like (wherein some people will get better health care than others), then we need to take health care off the free market system entirely. Going that route has it's own distasteful side effects (many more in my opinion), but it is still much better than the middle of the road disaster we're wading through now.

You simply can't have for profit businesses operating in an environment where the single biggest deciding factor in their success is their ability to manipulate government. That's what we have now. And that's the problem with the proposed legislation. It takes the worst elements of the current situation and amplifies them. It won't make things better to begin with, and it won't simply be a matter of tweaking it later.



SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Wednesday, March 10, 2010 6:03 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Good points all, and I am out of my league trying to comment on the specifics, but as Sarge mentioned free-market medical care, I figured I would toss this one in...

Before the accident which near killed me, most of my medical care, that consisting of general scratch n dent kinda stuff, including damage I didn't exactly wanna have to explain to folk, was handled by a veterinarian and a dentist that I knew in exchange for some cash, labor and various supplies/favors - when Governments and Corporations get in a persons way, PEOPLE find a way...

It shouldn't have to come to that however, and as Sarge notes, the only thing WORSE than one way or the other is the bastard halfbreed monster we have now.

-F

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Wednesday, March 10, 2010 7:24 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I disagree, Sarge, I think we have ample proof in many aspects of our consumer society that the free market isn't the answer to everything. Are you truly saying Wall Street, for example, needs LESS regulation? I'm betting you are, but I don't think so...I don't think if the health care industry were turned loose on its own that things would get better, rather they'd get worse.

Health care shouldn't be a "business", simple as that. It's people's lives, it's something they have no choice but to buy, and having it only provided by for-profit insurance companies leaves people at the mercy of whatever they choose to get away with to improve profits. JMHO


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 10, 2010 7:41 AM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Health care shouldn't be a "business", simple as that. It's people's lives, it's something they have no choice but to buy, and having it only provided by for-profit insurance companies leaves people at the mercy of whatever they choose to get away with to improve profits.



Naturally, I disagree. But if that's our consensus as a nation, then we need to socialize it properly. Shit or get off the pot. Straddling the drain is killing us.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Wednesday, March 10, 2010 8:02 AM

FREMDFIRMA



And on THAT point, I do believe we have a consensus.

-F

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Wednesday, March 10, 2010 8:45 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Hear hear!

Part of the problem, in my view, is that "shit or get off the pot" is something America has trouble with--we try to mix business and government too much, then often have to put regulation on business because it gets out of hand, and away we go with a patchwork society.

I'm CERTAINLY not for total socialization, but I wish there were a way business would regulat itself better on its own; or even take the long view, instead of tomorrow's profits. I'd be ALL for capitalism if that were the way it was, but it's not, sadly.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 10, 2010 6:29 PM

SERGEANTX


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I'm CERTAINLY not for total socialization...



I'm not necessarily saying we have to go to one extreme or the other. But we need to draw explicit lines between them. If we want to provide basic health care for the poor, for example, as a government service, we can do that and still leave the rest of it as a market commodity. We just have to make sure it isn't a cash cow for the health care industry.

And as far as the long view, all of us are complicit in that weakness. That's what leads us into these regulation quagmires in the first place. The financial situation is the perfect case in point. The way to ensure that companies have a healthy respect for the long term is to let them fail when they are shortsighted. But we aren't willing to take the hit to allow that to happen. So we bail them out and the lesson they learn is that those bailouts are pretty cool, and that getting in bed with government is the key to success. It's voters and their reps who allow this crap - because we aren't willing to consider things in the long term and insist that we can have it all, right now.





SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:40 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ahhh, the 'Murikan way: "I want it all, NOW!" Yup.

I'm not sure about the bank bailouts, given the global situation. My instincts say they were bad, but I don't know enough about global finance to be sure. The thing I HATE (given that we ARE a mixed breed between government and corporations) is that they weren't regulated so that they couldn't DO this shit again...instead they're going on their merry way, doing the same damned shit, and nobody's stopping them.

As to health insurance, I'm not sure your solution would solve the existing problems. But a Medicare Buy-In, I think, would go a long ways!

I don't see a strict delineation between the two as possible, given how far down the road we've gone. I see the best start as CAMPAIGN REFORM!


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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