REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Defcon 1 this week, expect false-flag terror attack and/or first-strike war

POSTED BY: PIRATENEWS
UPDATED: Friday, March 26, 2010 10:48
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 6211
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Sunday, March 21, 2010 4:09 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:


Military and govt terror "exercises" on September 11, 2001

Quote:

Friday, March 19, 2010:

Just learned that there’s a Navy-wide exercise this coming Mon. Mar. 22 and Tues. Mar. 23 during which, as currently planned, U.S. bases/ commands will be at ‘Charlie’ (C) security level on Monday and then at DELTA (D) security level on Tuesday, March 23. To the best of my knowledge, the last time we were at ‘Delta’ was the day of 9/11, then reduced not too long after 9/11 to ‘Charlie’. My understanding is that the base security levels correspond to DEFCON levels, and that Delta is very high. There’s also something strange about the lack of general alert to personnel on the base where I work, the Naval Postgraduate School (NPS) in Monterey, Calif., about this exercise, as I’m told that other Navy bases in our Navy S.W. Region alerted their personnel to this exercise as much as a month ago, and that Navy instructions were/are for all bases to do the same, yet so far there has been no all hands alert at NPS, and I was also told that someone said they didn’t understand why there was all the ’secrecy’ surrounding the coming exercise for NPS and not elsewhere.



A Wikipedia entry on Force Protection Condition (FPCON) currently used by the Department of Defense describes FPCON CHARLIE as a situation when an instance occurs or when intelligence reports that there is terrorist activity imminent. FPCON DELTA describes a situation when a terrorist attack is taking place or has just occurred.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_Protection_Condition

Quote:

DEFCON 1: This refers to maximum readiness. It is not certain whether this has ever been used, but it is reserved for imminent or ongoing attack on U.S. armed forces or U.S. territory by a foreign military power.

The third time the United States reached DEFCON 3 was during the September 11, 2001 attacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEFCON



“The decision on what level of FPCON to implement is affected by the current threat of terrorism towards military facilities and personnel, the amount of security forces available, and current relationships between the United States and the world, which may affect the chances of an attack.”

The threat level is set by USNORTHCOM.

According to the Washington Post, the Pentagon went to an Alpha security and defense alert once news of the WTC attack was reported, and after their building was hit, they went to a Charlie level of security. This is a scale from A-Alpha to B-Beta, C-Charlie, D-Delta. See John Judge, Kean and failure on 9/11.

http://www.ratical.com/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/911failure.html

It should be noted that the U.S. Navy has an Anti-Terrorism Training Exercise scheduled for March 22 – 26. “Inside information is that the below exercise will go to security level ‘Delta’ on Tuesday, March 23, reportedly the first such instance since 9/11,” a second forwarded email from the same person explains.

“Exercise Solid Curtain/Citadel Shield 2010 is a single, large, Navy-wide integrated exercise designed to enhance the training and readiness of Navy security personnel to respond to threats that may happen in the real world, but is not in response to any specific threat. Loud noises may be heard and members of the surrounding community may experience changes in traffic flow. Gate access may be slowed due to Random Anti-terrorism Measures being in effect. As a part of the exercise, Force Protection Conditions may be elevated, and communications channels may be interrupted.”

“The nationwide exercise is the largest Anti-terrorism/Force Protection (AT/FP) exercise in the country,” Navy Compass reported on Friday. “It is designed to enhance the training and readiness of Naval Security Force personnel to respond to threats to installations and units, leveraging all processes security forces would implement in the event of an actual emergency.”

http://www.navycompass.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&i
d=2054:mc2-eddie-harrison-npase-west&catid=46&Itemid=584


The following press release was issued by the U.S. Fleet Forces Command Public Affairs on March 19, 2010:

Quote:

NORFOLK, Va. (NNS) — Navy shore installations and activities in the continental United States, Hawaii and Guam will participate in Exercise Solid Curtain-Citadel Shield ‘10 (SC/CS-10), an annual security training exercise coordinated by U.S. Fleet Forces Command (USFF) from March 22-26.

The weeklong security exercise is the largest anti-terrorism/force protection (AT/FP) exercise conducted nationwide. It is designed to enhance the training and readiness of Naval Security Force personnel to respond to threats to installations and units, leveraging all processes security forces would implement in the event of an actual emergency.



http://www.infowars.com/false-flag-imminent/



Note how the Pentagon never went to full alert on 9/11, EVEN AFTER THE PENTAGON WAS HIT BY A KAMIKAZE BOMBER, thanks to Cheney's stand-down order...

When my military base was on Alert for wargames, sometimes the "games" were war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Libya

Synagogue Bomb Suspects: The Feds Put Us Up to It!
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/Synagogue-Bomb-Suspects-The-
Feds-Put-Us-Up-to-It-88579537.html

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Sunday, March 21, 2010 4:29 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


For once, you're probably right.

There's absolutely nothing I'd put past this bunch of thieves, thugs and criminals running the show now.

Worst Gov't EVER.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Sunday, March 21, 2010 4:44 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)




Worst, except for the one before...


Nice to see Rappy officially joining the PN crazy-talker crowd. We always knew who he really was at heart. ;)








"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Sunday, March 21, 2010 5:03 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Bush / Cheney never mandated ....

Never mind. There's no sense in talking to you anyways. You're nothing but a proud Alliance lovin' suck up who'll gleefully line up for your State issued MedCard....



Sad, to see so many blindly give away the freedoms we fought 200+ years to maintain.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Sunday, March 21, 2010 5:10 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Oh bullshit - you already gave away those freedoms GLADLY nine years ago for your DepHomSec card and the promise of a little tiny slice of "security". You've had the Alliance's (and George Bush's) cock in your mouth so long you've forgotten what freedom tastes like.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Sunday, March 21, 2010 5:14 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Oh bullshit - you already gave away those freedoms GLADLY nine years ago for your DepHomSec card and the promise of a little tiny slice of "security". You've had the Alliance's (and George Bush's) cock in your mouth so long you've forgotten what freedom tastes like.




Thanks for showing all just what a miserable piece of low life scum you truly are.

Keep it real, Comrade.


( and since you have no life, what so ever, do us a favor and google up the post where I gleefully congratulated George Bush for the Patriot Act. Cite for us where it was MANDATORY for every man, woman and child to buy into Gov't ANYTHING, under penalty of fine / imprisonment w/ the Patriot Act.

Oh, I know you'll quit after zero tries, because I never ONCE did any such thing, and the Patriot Act was never anywhere near this intrusive or restrictive. )


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Sunday, March 21, 2010 5:29 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Don't talk with your mouth full.

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Sunday, March 21, 2010 5:33 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Don't talk with your mouth full.



Wow.... you're how old again?




Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Sunday, March 21, 2010 5:39 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Don't talk with your mouth full.



Wow.... you're how old again?




Old enough to know you shouldn't talk with your mouth full.

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Sunday, March 21, 2010 5:40 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Washington Post: U.S. Information Warfare Operation Takes Down Website Used to Plan Attacks on Americans Inside Iraq; The Website Was Set Up and Run by CIA and Saudi Intelligence
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/18/AR2010
031805464.html

http://cryptogon.com/?p=14421

Note how online forums are created and used by the US govt to gather intel, make mass arrests and stage terrorism against USA...

What the FBI Paid Nazi National Security Intelligence Operative Hal Turner to do, before his arrest for assassinating judges by thought crime
http://family-of-hal-turner.blogspot.com/2010/03/what-fbi-paid-hal-tur
ner-to-do.html

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Sunday, March 21, 2010 5:41 PM

RAHLMACLAREN

"Damn yokels, can't even tell a transport ship ain't got no guns on it." - Jayne Cobb


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Sad, to see so many blindly give away the freedoms we fought 200+ years to maintain.



You might want to read the USA PATRIOT Act again.

Or you might not.


OUR PERSONS OF ONLY THE MOST EXCRUCIATINGLY
AND AGREEABLY SUBSERVIENT NATURES
HIGHLY-EVOLVED MORAL SENSIBILITIES
FINELY-TUNED MENTAL CAPABILITIES:
THE PHILISOPHICALLY COMPLEX
THE ETHICALLY SUBTILE
OR, ALTERNATIVELY,


THE BLINDLY OBEDIENT!


--------------------------------------------------
Find here the Serenity you seek. -Tara Maclay

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Sunday, March 21, 2010 5:49 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Don't talk with your mouth full.



Wow.... you're how old again?




Old enough to know you shouldn't talk with your mouth full.



Judging by your juvenile responses, you're up way past your bed time.

Of course, immaturity WOULD explain your naive, ignorant view on the world. So I guess that should be taken into account. But even so, your parents should monitor your computer time more. And what you say.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Sunday, March 21, 2010 6:02 PM

GINOBIFFARONI



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Sunday, March 21, 2010 6:07 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by piratenews:


Note how online forums are created and used by the US govt to gather intel, make mass arrests and stage terrorism against USA...





That's why I stay away from piratenews.com! It's a scam! It's all false-flag terrorism and CIA datamining!

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Sunday, March 21, 2010 6:08 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Don't talk with your mouth full.



Wow.... you're how old again?




Old enough to know you shouldn't talk with your mouth full.



Judging by your juvenile responses, you're up way past your bed time.

Of course, immaturity WOULD explain your naive, ignorant view on the world. So I guess that should be taken into account. But even so, your parents should monitor your computer time more. And what you say.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."



To quote you,
"You must be looking in a mirror."

I know, I know... It's only childish when others to it to YOU, right?






"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Sunday, March 21, 2010 6:10 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

Bet you'd only have to waterboard him twice to get him to agree with you
Tomorrow"



I wonder how many of your loved ones, your friends and family may have bee saved from waterboarding Islamic terrorists.


Even to save you, I'd waterboard a terrorist.



Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Sunday, March 21, 2010 6:14 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

I know, I know... It's only childish when others to it to YOU, right?



No, it's only childish when a child, like yourself, tries to say it to others, when it so clearly does not apply, except to you.

You know what you said, and how you brought down this thread, as you always do, by going all foul mouthed and pre - pubescent.

You're not capable to engage in reason, logic or mature conversation. We get that. It's just sad that you feel the need to remind everyone of that fact so often.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Sunday, March 21, 2010 6:20 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

I know, I know... It's only childish when others to it to YOU, right?



No, it's only childish when a child, like yourself, tries to say it to others, when it so clearly does not apply, except to you.

You know what you said, and how you brought down this thread, as you always do, by going all foul mouthed and pre - pubescent.

You're not capable to engage in reason, logic or mature conversation. We get that. It's just sad that you feel the need to remind everyone of that fact so often.





You mean the kind of "mature" conversations you engage in when you say you loathe our President because he's black? Those kinds of "mature" conversations?

How many threads have you "brought down" with your foul-mouthed pre-pubescence? How many times have you gone straight to calling someone "moron" or "retard" or "fucking ass hole" or "dick head"?

Funny that you only find it wrong when someone does it to you, instead of you doing it to everyone else.

That's precisely why not one single person here treats anything you say with anything but ridicule and derision: it's all you're worth, so it's all you'll get.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Sunday, March 21, 2010 6:29 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

Bet you'd only have to waterboard him twice to get him to agree with you
Tomorrow"



I wonder how many of your loved ones, your friends and family may have bee saved from waterboarding Islamic terrorists.


Even to save you, I'd waterboard a terrorist.





I wouldn't waterboard a terrorist to save you. Waterboarding never saved a single person.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Sunday, March 21, 2010 6:33 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:


I wouldn't waterboard a terrorist to save you. Waterboarding never saved a single person.



I'd waterboard a terrorist twice to save you, my friend.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Sunday, March 21, 2010 7:05 PM

GINOBIFFARONI



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Monday, March 22, 2010 3:58 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:



I'd waterboard you to save a hamster




Hell, I'd waterboard AU in the vague hope that it would save some hamster somewhere.




The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010

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Monday, March 22, 2010 4:25 AM

BYTEMITE


AURaptor: Gino lives in Canada. No offense, Gino, but I suspect Canada is very low on the list of terrorism targets.

So being I don't think his government has waterboarded anyone, I can conclude decisively that waterboarding has not saved any of Gino's friends and family.

Gino doesn't seem to like any Americans, so I'm hesitant and not arrogant enough to count any of us among his friends.

I do question whether waterboarding has helped any Americans; this is what we are told, but examples of activity that has been interrupted by intelligence gained in this manner would be have been put forward by now in support if it were true. Secrecy would no longer be necessary when the hypothetical threats in question are over.

Also, being that the CIA, NSA, and Homeland Security offices haven't changed hands, I'm reasonably sure they probably STILL waterboard people. Presidential orders have nothing to do with it. They're just carrying on the same old Cold War mentality and methods they've used in the past.

Only Eurasia's fallen, and Eastasia is (gasp) an economic (backstabbing) ally. Terrorists are the new Soviet Union.

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Monday, March 22, 2010 5:11 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:


I wouldn't waterboard a terrorist to save you. Waterboarding never saved a single person.



I'd waterboard a terrorist twice to save you, my friend.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."





1) You ain't my friend, palooka.

2) That just shows your obsession with waterboarding and other forms of torture. You don't care one whit about me or anyone else; you just get off on torturing people.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Monday, March 22, 2010 5:14 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


I do question whether waterboarding has helped any Americans; this is what we are told, but examples of activity that has been interrupted by intelligence gained in this manner would be have been put forward by now in support if it were true. Secrecy would no longer necessary when the hypothetical threats in question are over.



Don't forget that every single example that HAS been cited and declassified has been instantly and roundly debunked, up to and including the latest horseshit handed down by Tricky Dick Cheney, when he claimed that torture had revealed plans that were thwarted a year before the subject was tortured.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Monday, March 22, 2010 5:50 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oops, was going to write what Mike did. It's true; the "plots" that were "foiled" because of intelligence gained by waterboarding have been shown in each instance to be laughable or not even true. It's bullshit.

As to the rest, the pissing contest disgusts me. Turn around, Mike, and stop pissing into the wind. You just get it all over yourself.

And here I clicked in thinking this might be an interesting topic...


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Monday, March 22, 2010 11:30 AM

GINOBIFFARONI



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Monday, March 22, 2010 11:32 AM

GINOBIFFARONI



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Monday, March 22, 2010 12:31 PM

BYTEMITE


Wasn't judging you for not liking Americans for the most part, just laying the facts straight.

Was that you a "general you", or a "directed at me" you? I have a sneaking suspicion I'm one of the Americans you don't like, but that could be the ol' paranoia at work.

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Monday, March 22, 2010 12:38 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


I suspect the "wargames" this week are a contingency plan in case the sheeple rise up against Dictator Saddam Hussein Obama Soetoro for his illegal unconstitutional Obamacare Death Panel Tax to bailout the kosher insurance executives who want to keep their $200,000 PER WEEK salaries.


50-million murdered adults required to balance 50-million murdered babies

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Monday, March 22, 2010 12:48 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:



...What the US labels as terrorism will exist as long as the US continues with its current foreign policy, regardless of how many countrys you invade, or people you waterboard, or how many drones you bomb folk with... the way to stop this fiasco is to change the foreign policy choices that make the US reviled by so many.

...So the disgust I feel towards your country may come through in some of my posts, but put yourself in the shoes of people outside your country... and perhaps you will feel some disgust as well, and the same disappointment with Bush lite Obama, who talked a good talk at the start, but seems capable of nothing else.




"...The Obama administration has acknowledged it’s continuing a Bush-era policy authorizing the killing of US citizens abroad. The confirmation came from Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair in congressional testimony last week. Blair said, “Being a US citizen will not spare an American from getting assassinated by military or intelligence operatives overseas..."

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/2/9/obama_administration_us_forces_ca
n_assassinate


The language of that policy is so broad that it basically allows the un-Constitutional killing of Americans without due process at the order of the p-Resident...

In times that were somewhat more civilized , that was referred to as an 'extra-judicial' killing...

As long as the American public has no Constitutionally-Lawful 'money' there is NO chance of reining-in those 'foreign-policy choices' that you referenced...

Gino , trust that many of us are plenty disgusted rat-cheer...

EXCLUSIVE…Indonesian Forces Tapped by Obama for Renewed US Aid Implicated in New Assassinations

"...In a Democracy Now! exclusive, investigative journalist and activist Allan Nairn reveals US-backed Indonesian armed forces carried out a series of assassinations of civilian activists in late 2009."

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/3/19/exclusiveindonesian_forces_tappe
d_by_obama_for


Hey , didn't ScamBO used to be a 'civilian activist' ? Wasn't he an Indonesian, too ?

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Monday, March 22, 2010 12:57 PM

GINOBIFFARONI




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Monday, March 22, 2010 1:04 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


"There will be, in the next generation or so, a pharmacological method of making people love their servitude, and producing dictatorship without tears, so to speak, producing a kind of painless concentration camp for entire societies, so that people will in fact have their liberties taken away from them, but will rather enjoy it, because they will be distracted from any desire to rebel by propaganda or brainwashing, or brainwashing enhanced by pharmacological methods. And this seems to be the final revolution." --Aldous Huxley

The Ultimate Revolution

By Case Wagenvoord

Our houses are filled with screens that divert our attention from the real world even as they paint a distorted view of that world. The problem with this ubiquity of screens is not mind control ala 1984; it is mind apathy.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25046.htm


Wealth Creates Poverty?
"Terrorism, Globalization and Conspiracy"

By Dr. Michael Parenti

Globalization is an attempt to extend corporate monopoly control over the whole globe. Over every national economy. Over every local economy. Over every life.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11635.htm

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Monday, March 22, 2010 1:21 PM

MINCINGBEAST


Wait a second, Gino taint 'Merican?

Dunno, for some reason, just sorta reckoned he was.

Also, USA-USA-USA!

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Monday, March 22, 2010 2:01 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:
Wait a second, Gino taint 'Merican?

Dunno, for some reason, just sorta reckoned he was.

Also, USA-USA-USA!




Careful... For some, those might be fightin' words! :)




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 6:44 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

What the US labels as terrorism will exist as long as the US continues with its current foreign policy....the way to stop this fiasco is to change the foreign policy choices that make the US reviled by so many
I wholeheartedly agree, as it's obvious here many others do as well.

What you're leaving out is that every single empire has done the same...on a less global scale and sometimes in different ways, but it is in the nature of empires to "conquer". We've been the dominant empire for a while--don't worry, that's changing and you'll have another government to hate eventually. But as far as I can see through history, rare is the time a people can truly change their government's direction when the empire is at full strength...once it starts to decay, maybe, and often then only by rebellion. I hope we can find another way; rebellion all too often puts those in power who are WORSE than the status quo.

I wasn't surprised that it's a generalized "you", Byte--I kind of felt it was personal, too, until I learned he was Canadian, and I know a lot of them feel the same about Americans.

Gino: "Some" of your posts? Darlin', it comes through a LOT, to the point where it's as predictable as Frem's defense of the treatment of children, and others I won't mention because they don't belong in the same category, as they're just predictably stupid. I understand your feelings to a degree, but I disagree that a people can be held responsible for their government's actions, especially now as so many are distrusting our government and trying in their ways to make change.

I know for me, all it does is make me feel defensive--when I disagree with what you say-- because I agree with it most of the time; even then with a tad of defensiveness. We DO try to change things, some of us as much as we can, but this is the biggest country to have ever been an empire and it's a global world now, so it doesn't surprise me we haven't been able to have much effect on the government's workings.

It doesn't bother me much, BECAUSE I know you're Canadian, just as Peacekeeper is British (don't we have an Ozzie here too?), so you don't see it from the inside. Just like Frem's particular bent, I recognize it and accept it for what it is. But I think in some cases it's unfair, in others it's lack of understanding, and in many, being true.

You'll probably get to hate China next; Russia was a failure, and China will DEFINITELY be the biggest empire yet, when they get going. And they are, trust me!


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 8:34 AM

GINOBIFFARONI



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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 8:51 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I understand your feelings to a degree, but I disagree that a people can be held responsible for their government's actions, especially now as so many are distrusting our government and trying in their ways to make change.

Yeah, that bothered me too. Gino - so if you were born in America, then the George Bush debacle would never have happened? That's pretty much what you're saying.

You're free of blame because you were born a few hundred miles to the north, while W is my fault because I wasn't. That's just ridiculous. And here Godwin's laws proves out: it's like you'd blame the Holocaust on the people who hid Anne Frank, just because they were German citizens.

You seem a reasonable person, Gino. Surely you don't see the world as black and white as all that.

Now, if you're saying that every American has a responsibility to try to shut down the remains of the Bush/Cheney machine, and to make reparations for their madness, that I agree with. Responsibility is different than blame. I'm responsible for trying to improve my govt. But I don't deserve to get bombed by terrorists simply because I was born here.


-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 8:52 AM

GINOBIFFARONI



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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 9:01 AM

GINOBIFFARONI



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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 9:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Gino, I don't fully understand your response to my post. It's confusing.

And I wasn't saying people don't suffer for their government's actions...obviously it's true. I was trying to say that INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE shouldn't blame others for their governments' actions...if I knew Germans during the holocaust who disagreed with what was happening, I wouldn't blame THEM for their government's actions...ditto anyone else, be they Irania, Japanese, or whatever.

I do not believe the citizens of a country can be held to account for their government's actions; I meet and talk to people based on what they express and believe, not on their government's words and actions. People are individuals; individuals can rarely be effective in changing a government's stance, but that doesn't make them representational of it.

And of COURSE I don't think it's just Canada, now you're being silly. I've said repeatedly that the world is pissed at us, and for good reason, and gone on and on about the harm Bush's foreign policy has done us in the eyes of the world and my frustration that in some respects it's being continued. If you've missed all that, that's one thing, but I don't think you have, especially as it's often been in conversations with YOU.

The fact that people get killed because of actions of their government is not what we've been discussing...it is the personal blame of seeing all people of a country as representational of their government, which essentially is blaming even those of us who don't agree with what our government does personally responsible for it. I think that's wrong.

Most of us agree with you about the problems with the American government's actions, it's all over this forum. We try to protest, write to our representatives, express our anger, vote according to our consciences, do whatever we can. Yet you continue to say "you" and to tell us we're responsible for whatever our government does...THAT is what we were referring to. It's disconcerting and not particularly pleasant, especially as we're already frustrated and feel powerless.

Mal's corollary is actually accurate. He's indicating that if you were talking to some of the people who hid Anne Frank, you'd say "you Germans" when referring to Germany's government's actions, and not see them as individuals who were against those actions.

If you want to turn things around like you apparently did in responding to me; how would you feel if the Canadian government behaved as ours does, and the people you talked to from other countries blamed YOU for everything your government did? Maybe if you think on that you can better understand what we're trying to express.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 9:45 AM

FREMDFIRMA



I think he's trying to say it's not, yanno... personal, so much as he has issues with our leadership, for which we are, however, in part responsible.

I've never taken it personally myself, but I see how someone might, sure.

I don't think he means it in a personal way beyond why-did-you-elect-these-idiots, really.

-F

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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 9:56 AM

GINOBIFFARONI



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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 9:58 AM

GINOBIFFARONI



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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 10:29 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


We're still talking at cross purposes, Gino. I understand the point you're making. But the discussion we're in started out because of, and has continued on my part because of, how YOU, as a person, talk to US, as individuals on this board.

I was very clear in saying that of course citizens of a misbehaving government pay the price; that is not the issue at hand. The issue is you saying "you" did this or that, when in actuality it was our government who did it.

As it happens, I have friends of over ten years standing in Canada, Australia, Britain, Greece and one from the Mideast--that is not counting the Afghans living here, who think of themselves as part of this country. They all treat me as an individual, they don't say "you", they say "you Americans" or "you yanks" sometimes, meaning our population in general, but they say "your government", or, like me, refer to them individually such as "what that fucker Bush did..."

Can you understand what I'm trying to say? It's not about holding EVERY American responsible for what the American government does, it's about taking people as individuals, understanding those who agree with their government and those who don't are separate entities, not to be "blamed" for their government's actions.

You never lived under a society such as ours, so in my opinion it's disingenuous to say "the price they pay for failing to rein in that gov". I don't believe the people of Russia are responsible for "failing to rein in" the actions of the USSR, nor do I blame the people of China for their failure to stop their government today. Certainly I blame those who SUPPORT those governments' actions, but I can't know which is which until I get to know them individually, and I'm not so superior, having lived where I have, as to blame them for the actions of their government. I also do not blame the Afghans for the actions of Karzai, etc. People are individuals; those seeking power find ways to be in charge; once there, it's damned hard to go against them without ending up with worse people in charge. I understand that concept. Apparently you do not, or else choose not to. That's prejudice, in my view.

Do you get what I'm saying at all?


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 10:37 AM

GINOBIFFARONI



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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 10:37 AM

GINOBIFFARONI







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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 10:56 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Defcon 1 this week, expect false-flag terror attack and/or first-strike war"

Didn't PN predict the end of the world or some such ? I remember a count-down that fizzled.

Maybe we could start another one ...

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 11:07 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Okay, I give up. Obviously I'm not getting through, or you don't want to understand, I can't tell which.

I have been talking all along about how YOU treat US here, nothing more. Once a person knows another person's stand on things, in my world it's respectful not to blame them for everything. In a small way it's akin to the discussion we had about Jews through history doing nasty things so no sympathy for Israel, they all deserve it.

As I said, I have friends all over the world. I don't treat them, any more than they treat me, as if they are personally responsible for everything their government does; they are PEOPLE, and many of them disagree with their government's actions; I treat them as such.

Apparently you have no desire to treat the people here with respect and recognize them as individuals when you talk to them; your sense of superiority is such that you feel we are all to blame for everything our government does, whether we agree with it or not, whether we've tried to change it or not--we're all just to be lumped together. So be it.

Unfortunately, if the Canadian government ever does anything reprehensible (because of course it never HAS or will I'm sure), I won't hold you to account for it personally, I will recognize you as a PERSON who holds specific beliefs and treat you as such.

It's a shame you can't show the same decency to us. I've respected you and agreed with you a lot. This makes things clearer for me; not that it will change my agreeing with you when warranted, but it's lessened my respect a lot.

As usual, spent too much time here. I'll give you the last word if you want it, because obviously there is no sense in continuing to try and get through to you. I didn't previously realize just how strong your prejudice was. I do now and will remember in future.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 11:44 AM

GINOBIFFARONI



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