REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

It’s over: MPs say the special relationship with US is dead

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 6, 2010 06:23
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 6572
PAGE 3 of 4

Thursday, April 1, 2010 6:39 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


ANTI- you can stop shoveling YOUR load of crap. I'm not buying it.

With all our power, and all of our military, outspending the rest of the world COMBINED when we could have come down on the side of the good, we did not.

There were PLENTY of opportunities for us to have created stable, educated, productive, democratic societies. We could have allied ourselves with democratically-elected reformers. We could have set up schools, hospitals, ports, and roads. Instead, what did we do?

Instead, 95% of the time, our goal was "anti-Communism" ... ie, WE IMPOSED CORPORATISM over democractic reform so we could extract copper from Chile and oil from Iran at rock-bottom prices. So that the dictators and plantation owners south of the border would not be overly troubled by people wanting farmland, or by unions. SO that the Indonesian tyrant Suharto could genocide the East Timorese.

If you say that we're so "benevolant", then I ask you: Why did we do that?

Why did we do that, over and over and over again?

Yanno, I think it's time you faced up to reality. And it's the hard fact in many cases we're no better, and often WORSE, than the "enemies" we've tried to vanquish. You are as you do. Not as you THINK you do, would LIKE to do, or RATIONALIZE what you do but as YOU ACTUALLY DO.

That goes for ALL of us: individuals, Russia, China, the USA, the Muslim jihad.

Like the Bible says: By their works you shall know them. That applies to us, too.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 6:47 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Niki

I can't speak for Gino, Frem or Kwicko, but I know this one thing about SignyM: on 9/11 her question wasn't 'why' but 'what took so long' ?

Millions of innocent people have died directly as a result of US military intervention and support. Many times more have died by US-backed economics.

The fact that a combined millions of East-Indians, Chinese and East Africans hated the British for imposing their empire on them doesn't make the US any less hated for doing the same, in its own time, for its own ends, to its own areas of interest.

As for Canada, it has some small stain on it for its treatment of natives. OTOH they gave back something like 1/3 of the country to the Inuit and other native groups. Compare that to the miserable pittance called reservations the US has forced its natives to live on.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 6:52 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"There were PLENTY of opportunities for us to have created stable, educated, productive, DEMOCRATIC societies."

What the US fears most is democracy, b/c democracy doesn't GUARANTEE business results.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 7:10 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Well, it appears that I killed this thread. :brushes hands: \I guess my job here is done\ irony

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 7:17 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Niki

I can't speak for Gino, Frem or Kwicko, but I know this one thing about SignyM: on 9/11 her question wasn't 'why' but 'what took so long' ?

Millions of innocent people have died directly as a result of US military intervention and support. Many times more have died by US-backed economics.

The fact that a combined millions of East-Indians, Chinese and East Africans hated the British for imposing their empire on them doesn't make the US any less hated for doing the same in its own time, for its own ends, to its own areas of interest.

As for Canada, it has some small stain on it for its treatment of natives. OTOH they gave back something like 1/3 of the country to the Inuit and other native groups. Compare that to the miserable pittance called reservations the US has forced its natives to live on.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.




Alot of work still needs to be done with First Nations people here... some treaty groups have done much better than others... some dues to luck, or geography, or better leadership in a few cases ( that never hurts does it )

Addiction problems and unemployment are huge hurdles


I was rather proud of the role they played at the Vancouver Olympics... as partners in the endeavor

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 7:22 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Gino

At least you guys are taking an honest official try at undoing the damage. I suspect a lot of what held you up was getting your constitution 'home' so that you could negotiate treaties and such. The other thing I remember was that this was a result of a Canadian court decision. I can't imagine the US Supreme Court doing the same.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 8:01 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Rue,

Some of that is simply in the history, and with the way things were when the original treatys were drafted...

In my part of the country, it was often two or three northwest mounted policemen who rode out, and then got to know the folk they were dealing with...

they had credibility because without threat of force they could come in and talk like all involved were just folk... and often they became the ones who represented their interests to Ottawa

The animosity and distrust from the days of the Indian wars, Harrison, Tippecanoe, etc really made that sort of engagement in the US nearly impossible.



Interestingly Enough was the 1990 Oka crisis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oka_Crisis

I had some minor involvement as the military unit I was with at the time deployed several communications teams, and my Uncle was one of the RCMP commanders on scene.

From what I was told later, Ottawa ordered the army to overrun the protesters, and Colonel Gagnon refused the order... then the RCMP were ordered to do the same and they refused as well...

Instead the army and the RCMP isolated, and then de-escalated the situation... keeping the Quebec provincial police who wanted to storm the place away.

Finally through negotiations with the Military, as the Mohawks involved refused to talk to the government negotiator the crisis was resolved.


Even today, if say the FBI was deployed to an armed native protest with military support ( the grey area, if it was allowed )

What do you think would have happened?


We have our problems, but thankfully we too have our moments, and usually that comes down to individuals taking a stand... Courts and Governments seems to follow behind that... from the Colonel and RCMP folk who decided busting heads wasn't the solution and keep their cool no matter what




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 8:50 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, I guess Rappy has bailed from the thread, and so has KPO.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 9:02 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Rue, I don't disagree on any point. And you actually made my point for me; a few decades ago, the British Empire was hated as much as we are now, for many of the same reasons. Empires fall. It doesn't take violence; in our case, it could easily be economics.

Thank you for the persective I was trying to put forth.

I maintain that bombing America won't solve anything...things like 9/11 will just make our military strike out more, and any attempt at SERIOUS bombing would likely start WWIII, which I don't think the Canadians would enjoy any more than we would.

Our military is stretched so thin at this point that I think we are beyond the point of no return; the military will HAVE to pull back and rebuild before the kinds of things we've done up until now can be sustained. Maybe they'll learn something in the meantime; maybe the government will change sufficiently to back us out of some of this crap; who knows. I know Obama does want us out of both Afghanistan and Iraq; if we could avoid sending those troops to Somalia or some other place, it would be a beginning.

Only time will tell.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 9:11 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

It doesn't take violence; in our case, it could easily be economics.
Well, violence has been a part in all of the fallen empires so far, so I don't know why we be an exception.

What seems happen is that empires subjugate land and resources, but as their subjects rebel the economic (military) cost of maintaining an empire eventually overtakes the economic benefits, and the empire collapses from excessive militarism.

It would be great if we (the people) could engineer a "soft landing"... a w/drawal from our economic subjects and a reversal of the policies of extraction and exploitation, but (quite frankly) I don't see that happening. Americans just aren't that well-educated.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 9:14 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

cost of maintaining an empire eventually overtakes the economic benefits, and the empire collapses from excessive militarism
Again you answered for me.

The British Empire didn't die because Britain got bombed; it died because the places it had spread itself thin rebelled. I think it'd be great if all the places we've stuck our thumbs kicked us out; I just don't see any solution in bombing the home country. It's just stupid and would not result in anything better than what exists in the world today, in my opinion.

Ooops, you edited and added. I agree wholeheartedly with that last paragraph and I, for one, think it IS possible, just as it was with Britain...for us, economics might make our intrusion elsewhere untenable. I know it won't happen by popular demand, you're right, not enough grey matter floating around, but if those in government started seeing their own futures endangered...who knows?

I see bombing America into submission about like trying to bomb China or Russia into submission. Too damned big, too damned powerful...bombing would just make things worse. That's just my opinion, from what I've seen of history and geography.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 9:24 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

the places it had spread itself thin rebelled.
That IS violence, is it not?

You seem to have a particular issue with striking at the heart of the beast. Now, I personally think that doing so generally incites further repression (both internal and external) and is counterproductive to throwing off the yoke.

OTOH, if we don't want the USA to be lumped together as uniformly imperialist/ proto-fascist, we'd better be prepared to do something effective - like charge Bush and Cheney with war crimes, or cutting off funding for Afghanistan. And if we can't manage that, then I can't blame the rest of the world for their reactions.

----
Ah, I see we cam to agreement after all.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 9:27 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"... it died because the places it had spread itself thin rebelled ..."

But only one of those rebellions was non-violent, and then for only part of the time, and that was what was then known as India with Ghandi leading the protests. There was considerable violence in the rebellions in general (Boxer, Mau Mau, Sepoy).

And the people wherever they are do not go along willingly. You have to force them to participate at the point of a gun - whether it is a militia, a garrison, a police force, torture chambers, disappearances, or whatnot. The only thing that keeps it working is if you have enough enforcement on your side to counteract the resistance. Once that equation is perceived to be altered OR you push people to the point where they literally have nothing left to lose, then the situation changes. It's like a pop bottle shaken - and opened.

BTW, there is another aspect of the British empire which is still going on today and that is Northern Ireland. In the not to distant past the crown evicted the Irish from their lands and then 'gave' large landholdings to loyal British supporters as rewards. Both the takover and the rebellion were violent.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 9:28 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
The British Empire didn't die because Britain got bombed;


Actually it's because Britain was spread thin because of the first and second world wars. There wasn't much rebellion inherent to that though, most places were given self rule relatively peacefully, but they were given self rule because Britain couldn't hold on to them, largely because Britain was bombed so much during the previously mentioned wars.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 9:29 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

personally think that doing so generally incites further repression (both internal and external) and is counterproductive to throwing off the yoke
Arright, now you just GOTTA stop making my points for me, dammit, I'm feeling increasingly irrelevant

I'd love to do the things you suggested; would you kindly suggest how I can?

But I'll have to check for the answer later, 'cuz the huskies are getting into the garbage, tearing up things and making chewing gum out of paper towels they find in the trash can (Kochak's favorite pastime). Their way of saying "get us oooouuuuuttt...or else!" so I'd best listen if I want to salvage the house...

Oops, missed one. That Britain was bombed only hastened the fall of the Empire, in my opinion. Roman Empire didn't fall because Rome was "bombed", nor did the Spanish Empire, Ottoman Empire, and on and on. Rebellion in places HELD by the empire weakens it, and it falls from within or is invaded. Again I make the same point: Imagine "invading" America, Russia or China; it just isn't dooable. And I believe, again, that bombing us would only make things worse for everyone, the world over.

There has to be a better way. Still waiting for it...


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 9:30 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
BTW, there is another aspect of the British empire which is still going on today and that is Northern Ireland. In the not to distant past the crown evicted the Irish from their lands and then 'gave' large landholdings to loyal British supporters as rewards. Both the takover and the rebellion were violent.


If by not too distant past you mean longer ago than the existence of the United States or many of the colonies that it formed from.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 9:32 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


There was alot of violence involved in the dissolution of the British empire


and I am positve that

1. That the people who were fighting Britain, had the means of attacking Britain itself... they would have

2. That these attacks would have accelerated that decline



The spill over into other countrys may not happen

Canada for example, make keep its troops at home ( as they should have from the start )

Perhaps start calling a spade a spade, and lead a movement to diplomatically and economic counter said US policys in NATO, and the UN

Failing that we are part of the problem and open to attack as well, only fair...


Better to take a hit resisting mass murderers



than supporting the bastards who condone and commit it


Remember Bush isn't the only one

Who Killed more Iraqis

Bush, Saddam, or Clinton ?

who was brought to justice ?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 9:39 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
There was alot of violence involved in the dissolution of the British empire


I said relatively, and considering contenders are places like France, it's fairly accurate. Certainly more accurate than your statement :)
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
1. That the people who were fighting Britain, had the means of attacking Britain itself... they would have

2. That these attacks would have accelerated that decline


Indeed, if only the IRA had had the means, say, to attack Britain itself. Of course they could never quite manage it because of lack of funding, probably because nations that are staunchly anti-terrorist, like say the US, would never send them bomb money.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 9:41 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"If by not too distant past you mean longer ago than the existence of the United States or many of the colonies that it formed from."


That is a past still remembered - and still alive in the economic and political structures there.

Hey what can I say ... in the US political memory only lasts about 2 years. Time enough to do your damage and then buy yourself a new image for the next election. Unless you are from the south, in which case your memory might go back to the mid 1800's.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 9:43 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I've had two epiphanies on the topic, one while seeing "Hearts and Minds" which was a documentary of the Vietnam War. It made me realize what Frem said: These are PEOPLE. People who grieve over their parents, children, loved ones. People who feel what we do. There is no difference between us... under the skin we're alike. Even militant jihadists have their mirror image in Rappy.

The second was when my daughter was born and almost died. I felt the deepest grief I have ever felt in my life. And I couldn't help imagining that in some place far away... like a dusty city in Iraq... a mother was crying over her dead baby with the same grief.

It's hard to "think" this. You have to feel it... recognition has to hit you in the gut. Your world has to spin around, and everything you felt to be true... or didn't feel at all... has to change. Unless that happens, it's all words.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 9:46 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:

That is a past still remembered.

Hey what can I say ... in the US political memory only lasts about 2 years. Time enough to do your damage and then buy yourself a new image for the next election. Unless you are from the south, in which case your memory might go back to the mid 1800's.


The people of Northern Ireland have more right to call themselves Irish and live there, than you do to call yourself American, or live where you do. The people who live there, don't want to leave the UK. Calling it part of the British Empire is a gross mischaracterisation, regardless of how it came to be hundreds of years ago.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 9:52 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
There was alot of violence involved in the dissolution of the British empire


I said relatively, and considering contenders are places like France, it's fairly accurate. Certainly more accurate than your statement :)
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
1. That the people who were fighting Britain, had the means of attacking Britain itself... they would have

2. That these attacks would have accelerated that decline


Indeed, if only the IRA had had the means, say, to attack Britain itself. Of course they could never quite manage it because of lack of funding, probably because nations that are staunchly anti-terrorist, like say the US, would never send them bomb money.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.



I wasn't referring to Ireland... different situation I think. Almost more of a internal matter than a foreign war that.

more Sudan, the Mahdi revolt, the Boer war, the Zulu wars, the Marahatta confederation in India

examples like that, maintaining forces that far away from home ( even though East Indian Company forces were largely Indian ) was insanely expensive

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 10:00 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"The people of Northern Ireland have more right to call themselves Irish and live there, than you do to call yourself American, or live where you do."

You're right. I'm a first-generation American, not responsible in any way for the things that were done here in the past or for being born here, and unable to 'go back where I came from' (which would be Poland BTW).

Such is life.

I am not wrong though to point out that the British settled in Northern Ireland by force.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 10:15 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


SignyM

I had that epiphany watching a news report of a African mother comforting her starving and dying child. She did what I have done with those on death's door - I recognized the soft comforting strokes, the quiet and helpless watchfulness in her eyes. All the differences - time, location, language, skin color, cause - erased.

That's what I found so offensive and cynical about Geezer's choice of a white child. As if we all 'understand' that a white child is more valuable.

Maybe I'm slow though. Your type of epiphany came to me later in life.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 10:20 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Mmmm, I guess that means me too...given I'm SECOND generation American. Or does that mean I only have HALF a right to call myself American and live where I do?

Goodness, it gets so confusing...how about someone who's parents were one immigrant and one child of an immigrant and an "American"? Are they one-quarter responsible for the atrocities? Do they only have three-quarters right to call themselves American?

Or does that mean I'm half responsible for all the wrongs done by France? Or that I have to call myself "Half-French American"? I can't call myself French-American, 'cuz only my mom was French. Or, wait, all Black people, even if one parent was white, are "African Americans"...what does that mean for me?

Oh, shit, what the hell; it's just too complex to know who to blame for what and who has what right to call themselves whatever...


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 10:22 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
I wasn't referring to Ireland... different situation I think. Almost more of a internal matter than a foreign war that.


I know, I was taking a swipe at the Americans there.
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

more Sudan, the Mahdi revolt, the Boer war, the Zulu wars, the Marahatta confederation in India

examples like that, maintaining forces that far away from home ( even though East Indian Company forces were largely Indian ) was insanely expensive


The East India Company was dissolved about a century before the dissolution of the British Empire though? Much of what you cite would seem to be part of the expansion, rather than dissolution of the British Empire.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 10:24 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sig and Rue: Bingo, Bingo, BINGO!!! That's why I despair of Americans; if never exposed to other societies and cultures, the insular nature, especially of Middle America, makes it hard for people to ever see those of other nations as "people", feeling exactly the same things they do.

It's why I came back from Afghanistan forever changed, and why I think those of our soldiers who are self-aware and aware of their surroundings will come back from Iraq and Afghanistan changed forever.

If only we could ALL...

Well, wars would be harder to start anyway...


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 10:27 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I am not wrong though to point out that the British settled in Northern Ireland by force.


Which makes the present day Irish descendants of those settlers different from anyone else, how? There's not many, if any nations today that aren't the descendants of people who settled by force. Or is Spain still part of the Roman empire because the Latin descendants are still living there?

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 10:29 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


But isn't it always part of the expansion, not the dissolution, of an empire which causes those things? Empires don't expand as they fail, they contract.

And while discussing examples of those wars far from home, don't forget the British-Afghan occupancy. It was a biggie for the Afghans, and THEY'VE never forgotten it!

Also, Citizen, bear in mind that empires can take hundreds years to fall. Usually they don't even know they're falling until way into the process. Perhaps today's global village will cause it to happen more quickly, but previously it's taken a very long time.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 10:42 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


The problem with the decedents of the British is that they have disproportionate economic and political power TODAY. And the separation of N Ireland from the rest is not an indigenous one but a result of the British colonizing an already-populated area.

If you are arguing that there's an equivalence between US white people and Amerindians, and the British and the Irish I have no argument. But that doesn't necessarily place the British in a better light - just a longer-standing one.

Which is what I find so remarkable about Canada creating a substantial territory for the Inuit and others. It’s an attempt to redress the way things are today to create a least a level of fairness for past injustice, no matter how far back the white settlers can lay their claims.


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 10:46 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
I wasn't referring to Ireland... different situation I think. Almost more of a internal matter than a foreign war that.


I know, I was taking a swipe at the Americans there.
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

more Sudan, the Mahdi revolt, the Boer war, the Zulu wars, the Marahatta confederation in India

examples like that, maintaining forces that far away from home ( even though East Indian Company forces were largely Indian ) was insanely expensive


The East India Company was dissolved about a century before the dissolution of the British Empire though? Much of what you cite would seem to be part of the expansion, rather than dissolution of the British Empire.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.



How long was the British Empire in decline

or the Roman empire for that matter

without bloody, expensive foreign wars to heighten discord back home... would the decline have even started...


My point being is if that expense, combined with a domestic cost...

Boers burning shipyards, or Zulus running loose in Wales

the inclination to continue said policys meets more questions and resistance than they would otherwise...

mind you, as media control and propaganda was more effective back then than today...


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 10:48 AM

FREMDFIRMA


I came to said epiphany rather early in life, I suppose, but much later than I would have liked, since it came to me *as I was inflicting those horrors* and realized, in the blink of an eye, suspended in time for a moment that seemed to last forever, that was I was merely feeding the cycle of revenge, that violence would spark hatred and retaliation, and even if I took that final step and took the life before me, it would not end even there.

And in that moment, I finally, truly, UNDERSTOOD, all the things that Ghandi, and my Sensei, had been trying to hammer through my thick skull.

EXCERPT FROM Cross the Stars
Available via the Baen Free Library.
http://www.baen.com/library/
Quote:

"At any rate, Coon says I should hire your Colonel Hammer to clear undesirable elements off Tethys. I suppose you agree with that?"
She was not really hostile toward him, Danny decided. She was just very frustrated in general. Very possibly Marilee had watched his arrival through the window now behind her, and her subconscious preferred to over-compensate for the embarrassment she must feel.
Aloud Pritchard said, "Well, I might disagree on moral grounds if I thought it would work, ah, madam. But since I never have known it to work in circumstances like yours on Tethys, I'll pretend to be a practical man and disagree on practical terms instead."
The tall woman paused in mid-stride as her brain correlated the words her ears had heard a moment before. She looked at the man who lounged at ease, smiling at her. "Major—" she began in a tone more diffident than that of her angry assurance an instant previous.
"Please," said Danny Pritchard. "That was Alois' little joke, I'm sure, when he announced I was coming. Mister Pritchard. Or Danny, which I'd prefer. But I'm not a soldier anymore."
Marilee sat down with the abruptness of a gun returning to battery. She laughed as she looked out the window through which she could see nothing but sky from her present low angle. "Well," she said, "Danny, I suppose you'd better explain that. I hadn't expected to hear from a mercenary that force doesn't accomplish anything."
"Ex-mercenary," Pritchard corrected. The smile was back. "And force accomplishes a lot of things. They just aren't the ones you want here. Bring in the Slammers and we kick ass for as long as you pay us. Six months, a year. And we kick ass even if the other side brings in mercs of their own—which they'll do—but that's not a problem, not if you've got us." Unit pride lasted even after the unit's work became a matter of distaste. Pride beamed now from Danny Pritchard's face, and his hand caressed a tank that only his mind could see.
"So," the man went on. He got up without thinking about the action because he was focused on plans, on possibilities. "There's what? Three hundred thousand people on Tethys?"
Marilee's eyes narrowed. "On the Council Islands, about. There's a lot more in little holdings on the unclaimed islands, but I don't think anyone can be sure of numbers."
"So," Pritchard repeated. The word was his equivalent of the Enter key when his mind was computing possibilities. "You want to kill fifty kay? Fifty thousand people, let's remember they're people for the moment."
"I don't want to kill anybody!" the woman snapped. She swung abruptly to her feet again. Her boots rapped on the inlaid floor over which her visitor's heels had glided unheard. "I don't even want to kill Bev Dyson. I grew up with him, after all, I . . . maybe he did kill my husband. But I don't want to know that for sure. And I don't want him killed."
"You see," said Danny Pritchard, as if he had not heard his companion expose a part of herself that she had not known existed, "if we go in quick and dirty, the only way that has a prayer of working is if we get them all. If we get everybody who opposes you, everybody related to them, everybody who called them master—everybody."
"They aren't all dangerous!" Marilee shouted. She turned to the wall of trophies and went on in nearly as loud a voice. "They aren't any of them dangerous, except maybe a few. What are you talking about?" She spun back to Pritchard.
The ex-soldier nodded in agreement. "They're not dangerous now, but they will be after the killing starts. Believe me—" he raised a hand to forestall another protest— "I've seen it often enough. Not all of them, but one in ten, one in a hundred. One in a thousand's enough when he blasts your car down over the ocean a year from now. You'll see. It changes people, the killing does. Once it starts, there's no way to stop it but all the way to the end. If you figure to still live here on Tethys."
"M—Danny!" the woman said. "I told you, I don't want killing. Why do you keep saying that?"
"What do you think the Slammers do, milady?" asked Danny Pritchard. His grin was wide as a demon's, as cruel as the muzzle of the guns he remembered using so well. "Work magic? We kill, and we're good at it, bloody good. You call the Slammers in to solve your problems here and you'll be able to cover the Port with the corpses. I guarantee it. I've done it, milady. In my time."
He was still grinning. Marilee Slade gasped and turned away.



Cause that's where it goes - either make peace, or kill EVERYONE - everyone who resists, everyone who disagrees, everyone that might care enough about them to take revenge or retaliate, everyone and anyone who might take it into their head to slip a knife in you over it one day...

Until there ain't anybody left.

-Frem

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 10:57 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

How long was the British Empire in decline



Real decline? Probably started in the early 20's when the economic effects of the sudden expansion of the Empire, combined with the cost of the First World War began to hit home.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 11:06 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
The problem with the decedents of the British is that they have disproportionate economic and political power TODAY. And the separation of N Ireland from the rest is not an indigenous one but a result of the British colonizing an already-populated area.


They're also IRISH today and have as much right to live there and determine their own government as anyone else. So again, how does it make them any different to anyone else? The people you're calling "Indigenous" are descendants of people who displaced an earlier indigenous population, even.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 11:09 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

How long was the British Empire in decline



Real decline? Probably started in the early 20's when the economic effects of the sudden expansion of the Empire, combined with the cost of the First World War began to hit home.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.



Some of the books I have read put it earlier...

most around 1900, with the Boer war, the increase in influence of Germany and Turkey... The rise of other nations with large Navys... US, Japan, Germany, France...

They also suggest a period of stagnation 1860 or so on... post Kowloon.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 11:17 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Some of the books I have read put it earlier...

most around 1900, with the Boer war, the increase in influence of Germany and Turkey... The rise of other nations with large Navys... US, Japan, Germany, France...

They also suggest a period of stagnation 1860 or so on... post Kowloon.



Those weren't really periods of decline. That was more like what the US is experiencing now, as the rest of the world pulls out from under the cloak of the Second World War. Actual decline though wouldn't seem to be coming until after the First World War.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 11:24 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Some of the books I have read put it earlier...

most around 1900, with the Boer war, the increase in influence of Germany and Turkey... The rise of other nations with large Navys... US, Japan, Germany, France...

They also suggest a period of stagnation 1860 or so on... post Kowloon.



Those weren't real periods of decline. That was more like what the US is experiencing now, as the rest of the world pulls out from under the cloak of the Second World War. Actual decline though wouldn't seem to be coming until after the First World War.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.



Ah Hell, I would argue the US is in decline now

wars they can`t afford, internal and external dissent, political dis-functionality, pissing off the rest of the planet

two or three years, another big economic crash, maybe they will start another war nobody really wants ( other than Israel )

China may wind up owning them outright, if they don`t split into two or three separate countrys over teabagging and healthcare




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 11:46 AM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

posted by SignyM-

ANTI- you can stop shoveling YOUR load of crap. I'm not buying it.

If you say that we're so "benevolant", then I ask you: Why did we do that?



im not making excuses.. i believe i meant relatively, but if i forgot to state that.. isnt it clear by now my view on all this? you should know my opinion by now, after all this time.. i gripe about our role constantly. my solution was to become more libertarian, less involved in peoples lives, no matter where in the world

i just dont believe America is the most evil of them all

i tend to believe the 100's of millions of deaths this century, that were a consequence of the various forms of collectivism, marxism et al- to be the real evil we confront. after all what is it but ideology that compells a nation to intervene(for better or worse)? i somehow doubt Chili or Iran, if placed in our position, would behave dramatically different. 'power corrupts..' no matter who you are! we're all human. if the Chinese was the world power, we'd probably have a global single child policy, censorship of expression, political assassinations.. the whole works.

why not work towards some positive policy changes, instead of just ripping AMerica to shreds every post? its just not really constructive




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 12:22 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
Quote:

posted by SignyM-

ANTI- you can stop shoveling YOUR load of crap. I'm not buying it.

If you say that we're so "benevolant", then I ask you: Why did we do that?



im not making excuses.. i believe i meant relatively, but if i forgot to state that.. isnt it clear by now my view on all this? you should know my opinion by now, after all this time.. i gripe about our role constantly. my solution was to become more libertarian, less involved in peoples lives, no matter where in the world

i just dont believe America is the most evil of them all

i tend to believe the 100's of millions of deaths this century, that were a consequence of the various forms of collectivism, marxism et al- to be the real evil we confront. after all what is it but ideology that compells a nation to intervene(for better or worse)? i somehow doubt Chili or Iran, if placed in our position, would behave dramatically different. 'power corrupts..' no matter who you are! we're all human. if the Chinese was the world power, we'd probably have a global single child policy, censorship of expression, political assassinations.. the whole works.

why not work towards some positive policy changes, instead of just ripping AMerica to shreds every post? its just not really constructive






And if WW2 had not of occurred and Nazi Germany was the world power

would you be making the argument that the Japanese would be worse...




Madeline Albright

Mass Murder and War Criminal

do you let her slide because somebody else may have done worse...

or does everyone get judged by exactly what they did... not on maybes and what ifs

Chinese, Russian, or AMERICAN


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 12:45 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I just have to comment on the title "It’s over: MPs say the special relationship with US is dead".

Part of me wants to note that it was probably over between us after 1776 ...

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 9:05 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I just have to comment on the title "It’s over: MPs say the special relationship with US is dead".

Part of me wants to note that it was probably over between us after 1776 ...

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.




I think they are referring to the relationship between man and poodle is done

They learned that some folks just can't be trusted when they say " No problem, we know what we are doing "

Sad thing is the pricks knew exactly what they were doing... and they need to pay the piper for it

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 10:17 AM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

And if WW2 had not of occurred and Nazi Germany was the world power

would you be making the argument that the Japanese would be worse...



is the premise of the question that the US is currently or historically comparable to Nazi era Germany? lets keep this in perspective, America didnt start ww2, or ww1 for that matter. in some ways, that would have made the US an axis power(ironically). as it turns out, most AMericans didnt want to get involved in either of those wars, and but for the attack at Pearl Harbor its possible we may not have. not to say there werent some war proponants, like FDR. only God knows how things would have turned out otherwise. either way, we're in a position of damned if you do/damned if you dont. look i advocate staying out of the worlds business.. then we could be criticized for not coming to anyones aid.

im not going to be apologetic for things i didnt do and cant change. we break our own laws when we dont follow our own CONSTITUTION, which prohibits these things. unfortunately that was too little government for some around here.. so we've since scrapped that. things have coincidentally gotten worse since then. but atleast at one time, our original form of government was based on a document called the bill of rights, and not mein kampf or the communist manifesto. that should be a pretty clear gauge for people.. the closer America returns to that model the better

Quote:

Madeline Albright

Mass Murder and War Criminal

do you let her slide because somebody else may have done worse...




certainly not. would you go as far as to call her a terrorist? what kind of mindset or ideology prompts or compells an individual or entity to do such things; pursue such egregious policies? its a worldview, its an ideology- its a set of personally held principles or beliefs. how can we best stop terrorism? the only way to truly preempt evil is a positive change of heart. i dont believe in central planning like Albright did, just as i dont when Bush or Obama do it. i cant re-write history, but what i can do is promote libertarianism, since(i believe) it allows for the most personal liberty and freedom from tyranny. and tyranny comes in all shapes, sizes and countries

so get on board already, the world has to be changed from the inside out

we all know the NWOs the real puppeteer

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 11:14 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


but what i can do is promote libertarianism

that is good, such ideals could well serve to improve our world

but we still cannot forget justice for crimes that have been committed is necessary before one can really move on. Without that how can we have trust and understanding.

Especially crimes of the magnitude we are discussing

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 12:54 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

posted by Gino-

but we still cannot forget justice for crimes that have been committed is necessary before one can really move on. Without that how can we have trust and understanding.

Especially crimes of the magnitude we are discussing



i agree, who doesnt want to see the guilty brought to justice. unfortantely when its government policy, the accountability gets diluted through the beauracracy. if the UN didnt exist, or the US wasnt a participant, its likely any unwarranted meddling wouldnt be so easily condoned. in your example with Albright, Clinton and the democrats didnt seem to regard what happened as evil or war crimes. to prosecute people for these things, we're going to have to expose the ideologies behind policies that promote coercion and intervention. thats my only point.. its a battle of ideas, hearts and minds more then anything.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 1:42 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
Quote:

posted by Gino-

but we still cannot forget justice for crimes that have been committed is necessary before one can really move on. Without that how can we have trust and understanding.

Especially crimes of the magnitude we are discussing



i agree, who doesnt want to see the guilty brought to justice. unfortantely when its government policy, the accountability gets diluted through the beauracracy. if the UN didnt exist, or the US wasnt a participant, its likely any unwarranted meddling wouldnt be so easily condoned. in your example with Albright, Clinton and the democrats didnt seem to regard what happened as evil or war crimes. to prosecute people for these things, we're going to have to expose the ideologies behind policies that promote coercion and intervention. thats my only point.. its a battle of ideas, hearts and minds more then anything.



hearts and minds are part of it

tearing down a system that protects such... people

might be necessary to prevent it from happening again and again

sad thing is so many are willing to point at Bush and say it was him...

The rot goes so much deeper

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 4:04 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Experienced generals TOLD THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION THAT IT WOULD TAKE MANY MORE TROOPS TO SECURE THE COUNTRY.


I think Bush is an idiot, you think he's a gleeful war criminal(?). Both explain the above, but my theory is somewhat less wild. But 'idiot' and 'psychotic war criminal' are not interchangeable just because they can have the same end result.

Quote:

MAYBE because in Germany we specifically sought to rebuild to protect ourselves from an economically-driven repeat of the WWI reparations, but in IRAQ Richard Bremmer sought to spread Iraq's legs for corporate rape and make Iraq pay for it's own invasion? (Like what was done to Germany post WWI.)


I don't like the WW1 comparison; there was no talk of 'punishing' Iraq for its actions, and no desire to cripple it's future power like Germany's. Are you saying the Iraq invasion was a kind of corporate imperialism? I'm ready to hear your 'capitalism's sinister role' argument.


Heads should roll

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 4:24 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

And you seem to think, naively as possible, that everything we do is for the best, that we're always for "freedom", despite mountains of evidence laid at your feet. The U.S. is ALWAYS out only for what's best for the U.S.; we don't give a fuck about the rest of the world, except as it impacts our business interests.



But the ideas are not incompatible, sometimes U.S interest in foreign countries IS for stability, prosperity and freedom. Like Europe post ww2, and during the cold war. Whatever the motivations the positive benefit of U.S 'intervention' in these cases has been incalculable. Make sure you have that fact in your heads, lefties.

Heads should roll

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 4:58 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

And you seem to think, naively as possible, that everything we do is for the best, that we're always for "freedom", despite mountains of evidence laid at your feet. The U.S. is ALWAYS out only for what's best for the U.S.; we don't give a fuck about the rest of the world, except as it impacts our business interests.



But the ideas are not incompatible, sometimes U.S interest in foreign countries IS for stability, prosperity and freedom. Like Europe post ww2, and during the cold war. Whatever the motivations the positive benefit of U.S 'intervention' in these cases has been incalculable. Make sure you have that fact in your heads, lefties.

Heads should roll



And whatever the motivations, the NEGATIVE impact of U.S. intervention in just about anyplace south of the US-Mexico border has been just as incalculable. So make sure you have THAT fact in your head, righty.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 5:35 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

the NEGATIVE impact of U.S. intervention in just about anyplace south of the US-Mexico border has been just as incalculable.


Disagree - not on the same scale.

Heads should roll

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 5:36 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Experienced generals TOLD THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION THAT IT WOULD TAKE MANY MORE TROOPS TO SECURE THE COUNTRY.


I think Bush is an idiot, you think he's a gleeful war criminal(?). Both explain the above, but my theory is somewhat less wild. But 'idiot' and 'psychotic war criminal' are not interchangeable just because they can have the same end result.

Quote:

MAYBE because in Germany we specifically sought to rebuild to protect ourselves from an economically-driven repeat of the WWI reparations, but in IRAQ Richard Bremmer sought to spread Iraq's legs for corporate rape and make Iraq pay for it's own invasion? (Like what was done to Germany post WWI.)


I don't like the WW1 comparison; there was no talk of 'punishing' Iraq for its actions, and no desire to cripple it's future power like Germany's. Are you saying the Iraq invasion was a kind of corporate imperialism? I'm ready to hear your 'capitalism's sinister role' argument.


Heads should roll



Explain the sanctions then ?

Was that not set up to punish Iraq ?

Were the results of that policy not only known but a part of the public record ongoing for over a decade with UN reports, etc ?

At the time many countrys on the security council said the sanctions were not working, also looking back they were based on even less evidence than the case made for the Bush invasion ?


So not just Bush, but this stains Clinton as well


They say ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law, outright stupidity shouldn't be either...


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Russia says 60 dead, 145 injured in concert hall raid; Islamic State group claims responsibility
Fri, March 29, 2024 00:45 - 56 posts
Elections; 2024
Fri, March 29, 2024 00:33 - 2075 posts
Long List of Celebrities that are Still Here
Fri, March 29, 2024 00:00 - 1 posts
BUILD BACK BETTER!
Thu, March 28, 2024 23:51 - 10 posts
China
Thu, March 28, 2024 22:10 - 447 posts
Biden
Thu, March 28, 2024 22:03 - 853 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Thu, March 28, 2024 17:24 - 3413 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Thu, March 28, 2024 17:20 - 6155 posts
Well... He was no longer useful to the DNC or the Ukraine Money Laundering Scheme... So justice was served
Thu, March 28, 2024 12:44 - 1 posts
Salon: NBC's Ronna blunder: A failed attempt to appeal to MAGA voters — except they hate her too
Thu, March 28, 2024 07:04 - 1 posts
Russian losses in Ukraine
Wed, March 27, 2024 23:21 - 987 posts
human actions, global climate change, global human solutions
Wed, March 27, 2024 15:03 - 824 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL