It appears we have more in common with Russia these days than we did during the cold war; unfortunately, that commonality isn't a good one:[quote]2 Femal..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Moscow Subway Suicide Blasts Kill Dozens

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Monday, April 5, 2010 08:37
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2157
PAGE 1 of 1

Monday, March 29, 2010 8:25 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


It appears we have more in common with Russia these days than we did during the cold war; unfortunately, that commonality isn't a good one:
Quote:

2 Female Bombers Kill at Least 38 During Rush Hour Attack Likely Linked to Muslim Separatists from Caucasus Region

Two female suicide bombers blew themselves up Monday in twin attacks on Moscow subway stations jam-packed with rush-hour passengers, killing at least 38 people and wounding more than 60, officials said. They blamed the carnage on rebels from the Caucasus region.

The blasts come six years after Islamic separatists from the southern Russian region carried out a pair of deadly Moscow subway strikes and raise concerns that the war has once again come to the capital, amid militants' warnings of a renewed determination to push their fight.

The first explosion took place just before 8 a.m. at the Lubyanka station in central Moscow. The station is underneath the building that houses the main offices of the Federal Security Service, the KGB's main successor agency, a symbol of power under Vladimir Putin.

About 45 minutes later, a second explosion hit the Park Kultury station, which is near the renowned Gorky Park. In both cases, the bombs were detonated as the trains pulled into the stations and the doors were opening.

"I heard a bang, turned my head and smoke was everywhere. People ran for the exits screaming," said 24-year-old Alexander Vakulov, who was on a train on the platform opposite the targeted train at Park Kultury.

"I saw a dead person for the first time in my life," said Valentin Popov, 19, who had just arrived at the station from the opposite direction.

The iconic Moscow subway system is the world's second-busiest after Tokyo's, carrying around 7 million passengers on an average workday, and is a key element in running the sprawling and traffic-choked city.

Russian TV showed amateur video from inside the Lubyanka station of wounded and possibly dead victims sitting and lying on the floor. The train platform was filled with smoke. The LifeNews.ru site showed gruesome photos of dead passengers sprawled inside a mangled subway car and a bloody leg lying on a station platform.

(more at http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/03/29/world/main6342397.shtml?tag=
cbsnewsSectionContent.4



"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, March 29, 2010 8:33 AM

CHRISISALL


The only answer is to execute all suicide bombers to show we're serious about maintaining order!

[/reactionary snark]


The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, March 29, 2010 8:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...





"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, March 29, 2010 9:02 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


This is hardly surprising at all if you look at the history of the region


http://www.religioustolerance.org/geno_ch.htm

http://www.globalissues.org/article/100/crisis-in-chechnya

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War


Another conflict where both sides are terrorists

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, March 29, 2010 9:46 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Another interesting thing to consider


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings


Ryazan incident

At 8:30 P.M. on 22 September, 1999, a resident of an apartment building in the city of Ryazan noticed two suspicious men who carried sacks into the basement from a car with a Moscow license plate.[23][35][36][37]. He alerted the police, but by the time they arrived the car and the men were gone. The policemen found three 50 kg sacks of white powder in the basement. A detonator and a timing device were attached and armed. The timer was set to 5:30 AM.[17] Yuri Tkachenko, the head of the local bomb squad, disconnected the detonator and the timer and tested the three sacks of white substance with a "MO-2" gas analyzer. The device detected traces of RDX, the military explosive used in all previous bombings.[9] Police and rescue vehicles converged from different parts of the city, and 30,000 residents were evacuated from the area. 1,200 local police officers armed with automatic weapons set up roadblocks on highways around the city and started patrolling railroad stations and airports to hunt the terrorists down.[9]

At 1:30 A.M. on 23 September, the explosive engineers took a bit of substance from the suspicious-looking sacks to a firing ground located some kilometers away from Ryazan for testing.[38] During the substance tests at that area they tried to explode it by means of a detonator, but their efforts failed, the substance was not detonated, and the explosion did not occur.[38][39][40][41] At 5 A.M. Radio Rossiya reported about the attempted bombing noting that the bomb was set up to go off at 5:30 A.M. In the morning, "Ryazan resembled a city under siege". Composite sketches of three suspected terrorists, two men and a woman, were posted everywhere in the city and shown on TV. At 8:00 A.M. Russian television reported the attempt to blow out the building in Ryzan and identified the explosive used in the bomb as RDX[42]. Vladimir Rushailo announced later that police prevented a terrorist act. A news block at 4 p.m. reported that the explosives failed to detonate during their testing outside the city[38][39][43][44][40][41]

At 7 P.M. Prime Minister of Russia Vladimir Putin praised the vigilance of the Ryazanians and called for the air bombing of the Chechen capital Grozny in response to the terrorism acts[45]. He said [46]:
“ If the sacks which proved to contain explosive were noticed, that means there is a positive side to it, if only the fact that the public is reacting correctly to the events taking place in our country today. I'd like ...to thank the public... No panic, no sympathy for the bandits. ”

Later, the same evening, a telephone service employee in Ryazan tapped into long distance phone conversations and managed to detect a talk in which an out-of-town person suggested to others that they "split up" and "make your own way out". That person's number was traced to a telephone exchange unit serving FSB offices.[47] When arrested, the detainees produced FSB identification cards. They were soon released on orders from Moscow.[48][49]

On 24 September, FSB director Nikolai Patrushev announced that the exercise was carried out to test responses after the earlier blasts[50]. The Ryzan FSB "reacted with fury" and issued a statement saying[46]:
“ This announcement came as a surprise to us and appeared at the moment when the ...FSB had identified the places of residence in Ryzan of those involved in planting the explosive device and was prepared to detain them. ”

FSB issued a public apology about the incident.[50]



and hey, the next Winter Olympics is going to be held right near the area in question...

oh joy




NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:59 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


If only Russia hadn't stuck its nose into M.E. politics, and supported those evil Jews....

Oh, wait. They did neither of those things, and yet still civilians are being blown up.

Huh.




Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 1:48 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Just to change the title back. Seems we've picked up yet another troll.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 5:24 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Russia NEVER stuck its nose into mid-east politics? Really?

Guess it must have been some OTHER Soviet Union that was supplying everybody but Israel back in the day, or that invaded and occupied Afghanistan...




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 5:28 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
If only Russia hadn't stuck its nose into M.E. politics, and supported those evil Jews....

Oh, wait. They did neither of those things, and yet still civilians are being blown up.

Huh.




Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."



Have you no knowledge of the Chechen war AU ?

you do this to a country, you make no friends, and worse... you create people who will repay you in kind













http://image.guim.co.uk/Guardian/world/gallery/2008/mar/26/photography/GD6699169@GROZNY,-RUSSIAN-FEDER-3252.jpg



Mind you two weeks after Russian began its first bombing campaign, President Bill Clinton visited Russia and proclaimed Yeltsin to be Russias Abraham Lincoln

And I don't think he was being ironic...



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 7:39 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


big trouble coming


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 8:20 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by JaynezTown:
big trouble coming





What an idiot...

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 9:10 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Pathetic. Shows real class to have fun with others' suffering: NOT!


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 10:52 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1060708.html

Russia: Chechen Official Puts War Death Toll At 160,000

As for civilians, the human rights organization Memorial says up to 75,000 Russian and Chechen civilians have lost their lives since 1994.



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, April 1, 2010 10:53 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:



What an idiot...



Not a fan?

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 1:35 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Russia NEVER stuck its nose into mid-east politics? Really?

Guess it must have been some OTHER Soviet Union that was supplying everybody but Israel back in the day, or that invaded and occupied Afghanistan...





So, these bombings are a delayed reaction for what occurred under the Soviet Union era ? 21 years ago ?

Really?

The Chechens are upset that the old Soviet Union supplied everyone BUT Israel ?

Really?

Hard to figure out that " religion of peace ", ain't it ? Or the simple mind of Kwickie, at least.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 2:08 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Russia NEVER stuck its nose into mid-east politics? Really?

Guess it must have been some OTHER Soviet Union that was supplying everybody but Israel back in the day, or that invaded and occupied Afghanistan...





So, these bombings are a delayed reaction for what occurred under the Soviet Union era ? 21 years ago ?

Really?

The Chechens are upset that the old Soviet Union supplied everyone BUT Israel ?

Really?

Hard to figure out that " religion of peace ", ain't it ? Or the simple mind of Kwickie, at least.






Sorry, but my post was in reaction to your simple-minded blanket statement that Russia "hadn't stuck its nose into M.E. politics". I showed that they quite clearly had.

It seems pretty clear that these bombings were more in retaliation for the Russian bombing of Chechnya. As Gino has pointed out time and time again, if you go around the world being a bully and bombing people, sooner or later someone WILL strike back.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 2:24 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Just a wild coincidence that the suicide bombers in Moscow were Muslim, huh?

People on the Left wrongly blame our involvement w/ Israel as being a driving force of why we were struck on 9/11, ( us embassies, uss cole, etc.. ) but no where in OBL's fatwa does it mention anything about that. And no one accuses Russia of sidling up w/ Israel, so that can't be the reason. MY POINT was that the islamo terrorists don't have the same issues w/ Russia as they claim they do w/ the United States, and yet they get attacked, with suicide bombers.

The Chechens have their own history with Russia. They're also Muslim. Muslims blow themselves, and civilians up via suicide bombs.

Seems there's no end of excuses they'll offer as a reason why they'll commit such acts.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 8:06 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


small brain... thats why raptors went extinct right ?






NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 8:12 AM

MINCINGBEAST


im with rappy on this one. the bombings weren't carried out because of islam, but islam certainly played a role in the bomber's motivations. that, and the absolute revolting brutality the russians have visited upon chechnya. they ought to leave the chechens alone, so they can visit absolute brutality on themselves and their neighbors.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 8:19 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:
im with rappy on this one. the bombings weren't carried out because of islam, but islam certainly played a role in the bomber's motivations. that, and the absolute revolting brutality the russians have visited upon chechnya. they ought to leave the chechens alone, so they can visit absolute brutality on themselves and their neighbors.



That is not what Rappy said...


and prove they will " visit absolute brutality on themselves and their neighbors "

where are you getting that from ?

or are you speaking from personal prejudice


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 8:37 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURAPTOR:
Just a wild coincidence that the suicide bombers in Moscow were Muslim, huh?

People on the Left wrongly blame our involvement w/ Israel as being a driving force of why we were struck on 9/11, ( us embassies, uss cole, etc.. ) but no where in OBL's fatwa does it mention anything about that. And no one accuses Russia of sidling up w/ Israel, so that can't be the reason. MY POINT was that the islamo terrorists don't have the same issues w/ Russia as they claim they do w/ the United States, and yet they get attacked, with suicide bombers.



Actually, I blame our involvement in places like Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and other nations in the area at least as much as any involvement with Israel. As you so often claim, we're meddlesome, we meddle; we're in their homes and in their heads, and we haven't the right. Russia has the same problem: they meddle where they shouldn't.

Quote:


The Chechens have their own history with Russia. They're also Muslim. Muslims blow themselves, and civilians up via suicide bombs.



Christians blow up others, often civilians. Truman was a Christian, right? Man, he blew the fuck out of some civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, right? So that would prove that christianity is the religion of murder and hate, yes?

Quote:

Seems there's no end of excuses they'll offer as a reason why they'll commit such acts.



Which makes them different from you... HOW, exactly? You've never met you didn't like when it comes to killing Muslims.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 8:54 AM

MINCINGBEAST


gino, the russian's justification for brutalizing the chechens, if i recall, was something along the lines of "if we don't brutalize you guys, you guys will be in charge of the brutality."

and c'mon guys, to argue that the dudes who pull this kind of bullshit (suicide bombings, in particular) do not link it at all in their own minds to their belief in an imaginary bronze age deity is just silly. silly, i say.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 9:14 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Spot on, Mincing!

(excuse to return thread title to what I originally put up...)


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 9:23 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:
gino, the russian's justification for brutalizing the chechens, if i recall, was something along the lines of "if we don't brutalize you guys, you guys will be in charge of the brutality."

and c'mon guys, to argue that the dudes who pull this kind of bullshit (suicide bombings, in particular) do not link it at all in their own minds to their belief in an imaginary bronze age deity is just silly. silly, i say.




As you were pretty quick to challenge anti semitic comments in other threads, I just wanted to take the opportunity to challenge any anti Muslim comments you are making here...

suicide bombing = bullshit ?

don't buy that, sign of desperation, lack of hope, desire for revenge, willing to do anything to hurt those who fucked you over... all things I can accept and even relate to ...

and I am not Muslim.



When you said " they ought to leave the chechens alone, so they can visit absolute brutality on themselves and their neighbors. "

what proof do you have to offer that if left alone they would do such things?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Chechnya

Do you suspect they will automatic begin to act like Israel due to their shared history of abuse ?






NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 9:36 AM

MINCINGBEAST


gino, wasn't trying to make an anti-muslim comments, but rather a comment on the circularity of brutality. and i didn't, if i recall, mention anything bout my joo-ry, or israel. if you'd like, i'd be more than happy to fabricate an endless stream of anti-muslim comments. that way, you could accuse me of prejudice, i could accuse you of being stupid, and we'd both be happy with our smug moral sanctimony.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 9:49 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:


and c'mon guys, to argue that the dudes who pull this kind of bullshit (suicide bombings, in particular) do not link it at all in their own minds to their belief in an imaginary bronze age deity is just silly. silly, i say.




Again, that would make them different from us HOW, exactly?

From Dubya Bush's own words, HE clearly linked bombing the living fuck out of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis with HIS "god", and thought he was fully justified in doing so. So why am I supposed to care if someone who believes in another "god" blows themselves up? Hell, if anything I applaud their resolve; I wish Dubya had had the balls to blow himself up to prove his point, but he's been a gutless coward his entire life, so I wouldn't expect him to change his (yellow) stripes.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 9:50 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:
gino, wasn't trying to make an anti-muslim comments, but rather a comment on the circularity of brutality. and i didn't, if i recall, mention anything bout my joo-ry, or israel. if you'd like, i'd be more than happy to fabricate an endless stream of anti-muslim comments. that way, you could accuse me of prejudice, i could accuse you of being stupid, and we'd both be happy with our smug moral sanctimony.



I apologize Mince,

What you had said did strike me as very anti Muslim, and as AU frequently makes such comments I wanted to clarify your intent, just as you challenged the intent of others in treads earlier.

So you are saying with the " circularity of brutality " Chechnya independance would resemble Israel then ?

Endless suspicion, paranoia, and hatred on both side spilling into constant fighting ?







NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 10:01 AM

MINCINGBEAST


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:
gino, wasn't trying to make an anti-muslim comments, but rather a comment on the circularity of brutality. and i didn't, if i recall, mention anything bout my joo-ry, or israel. if you'd like, i'd be more than happy to fabricate an endless stream of anti-muslim comments. that way, you could accuse me of prejudice, i could accuse you of being stupid, and we'd both be happy with our smug moral sanctimony.



I apologize Mince,

What you had said did strike me as very anti Muslim, and as AU frequently makes such comments I wanted to clarify your intent, just as you challenged the intent of others in treads earlier.

So you are saying with the " circularity of brutality " Chechnya independance would resemble Israel then ?

Endless suspicion, paranoia, and hatred on both side spilling into constant fighting ?




no hard feelings. my statement was, on second look, susceptible to an interpretation that I didn't intend. glad you called me out on it.

the Russians have been holding their fist over chechyna for a while. as I understand it, the Russians justified their recent bullshit in Chechnya by citing terrorism, and an attempted Chechen incursion into Dagestan in 1999. i quibble with that. The argument seems to be: "Gee, if we don't brutally decimate your population, fringe elements of your population might do brutalize your population. Therefor, we must decimate your population to save your population." Sounds a bit like viet nam reasoning.

wasn't thinking specifically of israel with the circularity-of-brutality stuff, but its an apt analogy. mutual disgust, constant fighting, inability to consider the other side's point of view, utter hopelessness--its on point, isn't it?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 10:05 AM

MINCINGBEAST


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:


and c'mon guys, to argue that the dudes who pull this kind of bullshit (suicide bombings, in particular) do not link it at all in their own minds to their belief in an imaginary bronze age deity is just silly. silly, i say.




Again, that would make them different from us HOW, exactly?

From Dubya Bush's own words, HE clearly linked bombing the living fuck out of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis with HIS "god", and thought he was fully justified in doing so. So why am I supposed to care if someone who believes in another "god" blows themselves up? Hell, if anything I applaud their resolve; I wish Dubya had had the balls to blow himself up to prove his point, but he's been a gutless coward his entire life, so I wouldn't expect him to change his (yellow) stripes.



Didn't say they were different from us. was specifically talking about suicide bombings, which Christians and Jews generally do not pull off, but if you want to expand it to Bush--why, would you be surprised to learn that I agree with you? that going to war against another country because it will please your imaginary buddy is the apogee of dumb? Note that my bronze age fictional deity is mysteriously unnamed. All believers are benighted.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 10:15 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Oh, I get your point, Mince. I just wanted to point out that having the courage of one's convictions, and blowing oneself up to prove the point, takes rather more courage than pushing a button in a bunker in Nevada, or barking an order into a phone. Christians and Jews don't blow themselves up, it could be argued, because they are in general more cowardly than Muslims.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 10:20 AM

MINCINGBEAST


fair point. reminds me of something bill maher said, that i agreed with: the dudes who hijacked the planes on 9/11 weren't cowards. they had balls.

but maybe its more that just balls. by the time blowing yourself up sounds like a good idea, you are officially down for anything--and i think that the depressed circumstances that many muslim countries find themselves in (a product of colonialism and history) may account for a lot of that. so maybe its just that jews and christians just have more to lose, in their minds.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 11:34 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Is suicide attack a Muslim only thing?

I would point out the Japanese Kamikaze Pilots, who were willing to give it all to attempt to turn a tide from their own

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamikaze

or in our own popular culture...


Randy Quaid crashing his fighter into the alien mothership in Independence Day

Or examples from our own history,

Many recipients of the Medal of Honor or the Victoria Cross pressed home the attack with little or no hope of survival

you work with what you have, and lacking cruise missiles and helicopter gunships... if all you have is a brick of RDX and the right amount of piss off and hopelessness... you do what damage you can.

As for choice of targets... both sides ( hell all sides ) have been targeting civilians going back forever... can't make just one stop

The school attack at Beslan, one of the things the attackers said there was you have killed our children, see now we can get at yours.

Not pretty, but realistic

particularly if you put yourself in the other guys shoes

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 12:29 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Gotta agree with Gino on that one.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 12:54 PM

MINCINGBEAST


certainly there is nothing uniquely islamic about blowing yourself up, anymore than there is anything uniquely American about being a fat dick, or Canadian about being second-fiddle to a fat dick. i would quibble, though, about the proportion of christians who are currently blowing themselves up in attacks on civilian populations, vs. the numbers of muslims doing the same. i don't see religion at the root of said behavior, but rather desperation.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 1:50 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:
certainly there is nothing uniquely islamic about blowing yourself up, anymore than there is anything uniquely American about being a fat dick, or Canadian about being second-fiddle to a fat dick. i would quibble, though, about the proportion of christians who are currently blowing themselves up in attacks on civilian populations, vs. the numbers of muslims doing the same. i don't see religion at the root of said behavior, but rather desperation.



Lots of truth to that,

desperation, lack of ability to do much else to fight back...

what you said before about the cycle of violence

In the history of the Chechen fight... hell go back two generations and a majority ( half million or so ) of them were thrown into cattle cars and hauled to Siberia as slave labour

over a decade later about half made it back to their land, and the beat down continued, and continued


has to leave psychological fingerprints doesn't it


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 2:15 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:
certainly there is nothing uniquely islamic about blowing yourself up, anymore than there is anything uniquely American about being a fat dick, or Canadian about being second-fiddle to a fat dick. i would quibble, though, about the proportion of christians who are currently blowing themselves up in attacks on civilian populations, vs. the numbers of muslims doing the same. i don't see religion at the root of said behavior, but rather desperation.

I'm with you, and with Gino on this. Western nations have the power at the moment, so we don't have to resort to suicide bombings. Doesn't mean we wouldn't. If the US was invaded and held by a foreign power, you betcha Americans would be carrying out suicide attacks against the invaders. In fact, I bet those who scream most against the Iraqi suicide bombers would be lining up first to get a TNT vests if armed foreigners starting setting up checkpoints in their hometown.

Yeah, I don't think it's religion. I think it's powerlessness. When a people are oppressed and have no other option, they'll do anything they can. Wish the powers that be would realize this and cool it with the oppression. Trying to root out and kill every terrorist will never solve the problem. America just needs to get the fuck out of those countries, let them have the oil which should be theirs anyway.


-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 2, 2010 5:37 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


So since none of us see it as a "Muslim thing", maybe we could quit collectively trying to label it as such.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 5, 2010 8:30 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


http://www.ericmargolis.com/political_commentaries/time-to-set-the-che
chen-free.aspx




TIME TO SET THE CHECHEN FREE

April 05, 2010
There is an old saying about the fierce Chechen tribes who inhabit southern Russia’s Caucasus mountains: `Chechen cannot ever be defeated. They can only be killed.’
Chechen are Russia’s nemesis. Even the notoriously brutal Russian mafia fears the ferocious Chechen, and for good reason.

Last year, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin proudly proclaimed that resistance to Russian rule in the North Caucasus had been eliminated. The region was pacified.

Confounding Putin’s claim, Chechen suicide bombers hit Moscow’s subway last week, killing 39 and injuring over 70. Chechen suicide bombers in Dagestan killed twelve, mostly policemen. There were further attacks in neighboring Dagestan. The North Caucasus was again at a boil.

The attacks seriously rattled Russians and left the Kremlin deeply embarrassed and enraged.

Two `black widows’ – wives or daughters of Chechen independence fighters killed or raped by the Russians (Russians call them `Islamic terrorists’ and `bandits’) – took their revenge last week, as so often in recent years.

The latest Chechen leader, Doku Umarov - all his predecessors were liquidated by Russia – claimed from his hideout in the Caucasus mountains that the subway attacks were reprisal for the recent killing of Chechen civilians by Russian security forces.

He warned Moscow, `we will make you feel what we feel.’

In recent years, Chechen `black widows’ have brought down two civilian airliners. Other Chechen hijacked an entire Moscow theater, and derailed the “Alexander Nevsky” Express that runs from Moscow to St. Petersburg.

Chechen are a tiny but fierce North Caucasian mountain people of Indo-European origin. They, and other Muslim Caucasian tribes, such as Dagestanis and Cherkass
(Circasians), have battled Russian imperial rule for the past 300 years.

In 1877, Imperial Russia killed 40% of the Chechen population of about 220,000. Four hundred thousand Cherkass were expelled.

Stalin, from neighboring Georgia, hated Chechen. He divided Chechnya, creating the republic of Ingushetia. Then, in July 1937, his secret police, NKVD, shot 14,000 Chechen.

In 1944, Stalin ordered the entire Chechen people rounded up and shipped in cattle cars to his Siberian concentration camps or dumped to perish into icy fields. Other Muslims followed: Ingush, Tatars, Karachai, Balkars.

Neither bullets nor gas chambers were needed in Stalin’s death camps. A third of the prisoners died each year from cold, starvation or disease in the concentration camps. In all, some 2.5 million Soviet Muslims were murdered by Stalin, ‘the Breaker of Nations,’ among them half of the Chechen people.

In my new book, “American Raj,” I entitle the section on the Chechen, “Genocide in the Caucasus.”

Gulag survivors filtered back to Chechnya. When the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, Chechen demanded independence like the Soviet republics.

Instead, Boris Yeltsin’s government invaded Chechnya, killing some 100,000 Chechen civilians through massive carpet bombing and shelling. Chechen leader Dzhokar Dudayev was assassinated, reportedly thanks to telephone homing equipment supplied to Moscow by the US National Security Agency. President Bill Clinton actually lauded Boris Yeltsin’s as “Russia’s Abraham Lincoln.”

Incredibly, Chechen fighters managed to defeat Russia’s army and won de facto independence.

But in 1999, apartment buildings in Russia were bombed, killing some 200 people, and creating a national panic.
Chechen `terrorists’ were immediately blamed. But there was disturbing evidence that government agents staged the bombing to justify invading Chechnya.

Moscow media reported that a group of Federal Security Service( FSB – the successor to the KGB’s internal security service) agents were caught red-handed planting explosives in an apartment building. They claimed the explosives were merely bags of “sugar,” part of a “test.”

An ex-FSB agent, Alexander Litvinenko, joined other critics in accusing the government of a false flag operation in staging the attacks to justify a new war against the Chechen. In 2006, Litvinenko was poisoned with radioactive polonium-210 in London.

Litvinenko also accused the Kremlin of being behind the murder of the crusading Russian journalist Anna Politkovskaya. She told me before her death that she was marked for assassination by the government because of her stinging exposés of Russia’s human rights violations in Chechnya.

FSB chief Vladimir Putin was catapulted into power by the anti-Chechen hysteria caused by the mysterious bombings. Two years later, the eerily similar 9/11 attacks would similarly turn George Bush from a non-entity into a hero, and provide a pretext for the US to invade Afghanistan and Iraq.

Powerful Russian forces invaded and crushed the life out of Chechen resistance. All moderate Chechen leaders were assassinated, the last in Qatar in 2004, leaving mostly militant Islamists. A Moscow-installed Chechen puppet regime imposed a rein of terror upon the population, using torture, murder, mass reprisals, hostages and rape.

The world ignored these violations but paid rapt attention to another crime, the death of over 300 Russian child hostages in the still murky school massacre at Beslan.

The outside world totally ignored the death of another 100,000 Chechen after Moscow successfully branded them, `Islamic terrorists.’ A quarter of the Chechen people, Muslims and Russians, died from 1991 until 2010, not counting Stalin’s mass murder. But Chechen keep fighting on.

Moscow worries insurrection is spreading across its soft Caucasus underbelly. President Dimitri Medvedev made laudable efforts to humanize Russia’s rule there. But after the subway atrocity, Putin and Medvedev vow to `destroy’ remaining resistance in Chechnya, Dagestan and Ingushetia.

Moscow should end this historical tragedy by granting Chechnya independence. Doing so is of course risky: it could spark demands by other Caucasian Muslims for independence, and enflame some of Russia’s 20 million-strong Muslim minority – though most still appear content to live in the Russian Federation.

An independent Chechnya could also open another door to growing US penetration of the Caucasus and campaign to encircle Russia. The US and Russia came frighteningly close to a head-on clash over Georgia. The Cold War has not ended.

An independent Chechnya would be unstable and violent. But that is better than the savagery and atrocities that this terrible conflict continues to generate.

Modern Russia needs to set the Chechen free.


copyright Eric S. Margolis 2010



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 5, 2010 8:37 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Another parallel with Israel Mince...

Wipe out all the moderate leaders, then paint the entire opposition as extremists when they are the only ones left standing to lead their people.

Good PR, bad for peace as you lose out on having moderates to negotiate with.

Sadly this sounds way too familar



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Biden
Thu, March 28, 2024 19:42 - 851 posts
China
Thu, March 28, 2024 19:33 - 444 posts
Russia says 60 dead, 145 injured in concert hall raid; Islamic State group claims responsibility
Thu, March 28, 2024 19:16 - 51 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Thu, March 28, 2024 17:24 - 3413 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Thu, March 28, 2024 17:20 - 6155 posts
BUILD BACK BETTER!
Thu, March 28, 2024 16:32 - 9 posts
Well... He was no longer useful to the DNC or the Ukraine Money Laundering Scheme... So justice was served
Thu, March 28, 2024 12:44 - 1 posts
Elections; 2024
Thu, March 28, 2024 11:18 - 2071 posts
Salon: NBC's Ronna blunder: A failed attempt to appeal to MAGA voters — except they hate her too
Thu, March 28, 2024 07:04 - 1 posts
Russian losses in Ukraine
Wed, March 27, 2024 23:21 - 987 posts
human actions, global climate change, global human solutions
Wed, March 27, 2024 15:03 - 824 posts
NBC News: Behind the scenes, Biden has grown angry and anxious about re-election effort
Wed, March 27, 2024 14:58 - 2 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL