There are some sick, sick people in our country. Or do you think she was justified? Personally, I agree with Medvedev:[quote]Russian President Medvedev..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Tennessee Mother Ships Adopted Son Back to Moscow Alone

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 19:09
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1663
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Sunday, April 11, 2010 8:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


There are some sick, sick people in our country. Or do you think she was justified? Personally, I agree with Medvedev:
Quote:

Russian President Medvedev Calls Boy's Return a 'Monstrous Deed'

A Tennesee mother's decision to send her 7-year-old adopted son back to Russia, alone and with a note that she no longer wanted him, has horrified officials and adoption experts in both countries.

Angry Russian officials are calling for a halt to all U.S. adoptions until the two countries can hammer out a new agreement that spells out the conditions and obligations for such adoptions.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedevcalled the boy's abrupt return "a monstrous deed." The Russian president told ABC News' George Stephanopoulos in an exclusive interview that he had a "special concern" about the recent treatment of Russian children adopted by Americans.

Torry Hansen of Shelbyville, Tenn., put 7-year-old Artyem Saviliev -- renamed Justin Artyem Hansen in the U.S. -- on a plane to Moscow's Domodedovo airport with a note in his pocket saying she was returning him, that the boy had severe psychological problems and that the orphanage had lied about his condition.

"I no longer wish to parent this child," the note read, calling the boy a liability.

"This child is mentally unstable." Hansen wrote to the Russian Ministry of Education. "He is violent and has severe psychopathic issues/behaviours. I was lied to and misled by the Russian Orphanage workers and director regarding his mental stability and other issues."

Adopted six months ago, the boy was traveling on an expired U.S. visa. He was taken to a hospital for a medical evaluation. Video footage showed Artyem looking bewildered as he is taken from the police station to the hospital by Russian social service workers.

"On every level putting a little kid on a plane and shipping them somewhere is horrific behavior. If you have a problem, you deal with the problem," said Adam Pertman, executive of the Evan B. Donaldson Adoption Institute. "It is certainly the equivalent of abandoning your child."

Sheriff: 'There May Be No Crime'

Bedford County Sheriff Randall Boyce told ABC News that he had tried to visit Hansen Thursday and again today, but was told by Hansen's lawyer "they said they will meet with us later, sometime next week they said."

"This is a touchy deal and I'm not sure if anything illegal has been done or not," Boyce said.

The sheriff said, "Our plan is to have the adoption agency check with the people in Moscow or whatever part of Russia they're in and check with this child and see if they see signs of abuse."

Boyce said he intended to move slowly and carefully in his investigation.

"We're breaking new ground here," he said. "There may be no crime at all when you really get down to it. Maybe some bad judgment in the way she turned this child back."

The Tennessee Department of Child Services also is looking into elements of the case.

"DCS looks into child abuse and neglect," said Rob Johnson, the department's director of communications. "By statute we look into cases alongside law enforcement. We look at it from a child welfare point of view.

"We have tried to visit the Hansen family today," Johnson added. "We are working alongside law enforcement on trying to interview them."

Of particular interest to DCS would be the safety of any children that may be in the Hansen home, Johnson said.

"We do not track international adoptions," Johnson said. "They are private adoptions."

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/anger-mom-adopted-boy-back-russia/story?id=10
331728





"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Sunday, April 11, 2010 10:57 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Jeepers, one more reason we really, REALLY need to start considering children as people, instead of objects or property, you ask me.

Imagine how the kid feels, treated mostly like an unwanted package while the adults talk about his fate right over his head without so much as asking him a damn thing.

-F

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Monday, April 12, 2010 6:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sickening, isn't it?? Blows my mind someone would be so totally...well, can't think of a word!

I know adopting kids from some countries can end up getting a kid with that "syndrome"...where they weren't nurtured as babies, you probably know the name. Have seen some stuff on that and, man, I don't know if I'd be up to it! But there have to be better answers than this, and I hope to gawd she pays for it in SOME way.

I don't know how you change the mindset of some parents about children, it's akin to their concept of pets, something they "own" and control, and for some, status symbols or conveniences or something. I don't get it, either with children or with animals, but I see it and recognize it for what it is.

Do you think mankind can ever get to the point of viewing children as people? Hasn't happened throughout history, so while I desperately wish it were possible, I have my doubts. Children are so helpless, and the organizations set up to protect them can be worse than nothing in some cases; I know, have heard horror stories from some who have dealt with them, and of course what you've seen is the very worst! How I wish...


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Monday, April 12, 2010 6:34 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Sickening, isn't it?? Blows my mind someone would be so totally...well, can't think of a word!


Fucking shallow, two words, Niki.

She wanted a pet, not a person. People come with problems and personalities & such.

So sad for that kid...


The not-laughing Chrisisall


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Monday, April 12, 2010 6:56 AM

AGENTROUKA


This is horrible.

Didn't it enter her mind that she might get some help before "returning the merchandise"? Like she would if it was her own child? Jesus. That poor child.

I think everybody is at fault here. The horrible woman for being so callous and the Russian orphanage for not checking the woman's readiness and not telling her about the child's problems. Did they think just selling the child to a richer country would be solution enough? It's my understanding they often sell children with serious medical conditions to unsuspecting buyers. (Sorry, arrange adoptions.) That's deeply unethical, too, if it can't be guaranteed that the new parents can pay for the medical treatment the child will need.

Ugh.

This is what makes international adoptions sort of scary, to me. There seems to be very little accountability on every level.

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Monday, April 12, 2010 7:03 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

This is what makes international adoptions sort of scary, to me.

Thing of it is, you are GOING to get a kid in some kind of pain, barring babies.
To adopt in this way means you HAVE to have a big heart, not a small mind.


The serious Chrisisall


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Monday, April 12, 2010 7:06 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I agree Agent. And yes, from what I've heard, they DO ship them off without letting people know what they're in for.

And certainly she must have had other options than just shipping him back...bitch. Surely others were in the same position and didn't resort to such callous treatment.

Nope, Chris, that doesn't do it for me...I can't think of words bad enough to describe here, everything in my vocabulary fails me.




"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Monday, April 12, 2010 7:12 AM

BYTEMITE


What gets my goat, besides just OMG bad mother, is how both countries are going to jump on this as an opportunity to slam each other and increase tension. And here we thought the cold war was over.

I predict we're going to see Elian Gonzales levels of back and forth politicking that won't be thinking of the happiness or security of the kid, and if the kid really wasn't troubled like Torry-whats-her-face claimed, he sure as hell gonna be after this.

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Monday, April 12, 2010 7:15 AM

CHRISISALL


Niki, you know that "World peace" answer that runs its course in beauty pageants?

If I could do ANY one thing, I'd create a world family city for kids that need homes, parents, food, love, cartoons...

Take care of and love kids, and you'd GET world peace, IMO.


Chrisisall


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Monday, April 12, 2010 9:29 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

This is what makes international adoptions sort of scary, to me.

Thing of it is, you are GOING to get a kid in some kind of pain, barring babies.
To adopt in this way means you HAVE to have a big heart, not a small mind.

The serious Chrisisall




Even babies that are adopted can have serious medical conditions that the prospective parents/buyers are not told about. Grossly irresponsible, as it can even endanger the health of the child.

I don't doubt that there are big-hearted people out there who are willing and ready to bestow all their care and love on a child marked by illness, trauma or psychological disorders. But apparently they also hand over the children to people like that horrible woman, who not only was ignorant enough to not consider the chance of adopting a child with "flaws" but who would be overwhelmed enough (I'm being kind here) to reduce that child to the status of damaged merchandize.

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Monday, April 12, 2010 9:51 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Not necessarily, Byte:
Quote:

Top officials from the U.S. State Department plan to travel to Moscow this week to push Russia to allow adoptions by U.S. families to continue.

The trip comes after a U.S. family sparked outrage by sending an adopted 7-year-old boy back to Russia alone. Officials in Moscow have threatened to halt all adoptions by U.S. families.

"We were certainly shocked, as was everybody, about the return of the child. We are hoping to work with the Russians to continue the adoptions of children," said Michael D. Kirby, principal deputy assistant for consular affairs.

"We have had over 50,000 children adopted from Russia. The vast majority are doing great here in the United States."

Families in the United States have adopted 14,079 children from Russia in the last five years, including 1,586 in 2009, according to the State Department.

Russia is the third most popular country for U.S. families adopting children internationally, behind China and Ethiopia.

The family that returned the boy said he showed violent and psychotic behavior -- and that officials in Russia had given no warning.

"I am sorry to say that for the safety of my family, friends and myself I no longer wish to parent this child," Torry Hansen wrote in a note in the child's backpack.

She added that Russian orphanage workers "lied to and misled" her about the boy, Artyem, who was renamed Justin Artyem when the family adopted him last year.

In a phone call with CNN, Hansen's mother, Nancy Hansen, said the boy "had a hit list of people he wanted to hurt." No. 1 on that list: his American mom.

The final straw, the adoptive grandmother said, came last week when the family caught him trying to start a fire in the home.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, in an interview with ABC News, called the boy's return a "monstrous" act.

Kirby, speaking to CNN's "American Morning," said, "We have to talk about how we can follow up after the children are adopted. First, are the parents properly screened in the process? Are the agencies that are screening them doing all that they could do to ensure that they are prepared to be new parents?"

He added U.S. officials also must work with Russians "to make sure that the children themselves are also fully understanding what is going to happen to them as they move to a new country in a strange place."

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/04/12/russia.adoption/index.html?hpt=T2

Not that all their fancy plans will WORK, but it's a start. And I think Russia has an overload of orphans to the point where they'd be pretty easy to convince to continue the adoptions.

We'll have to see. I certainly agree with every word of the article, especially the last parts, which address some of what you said, Agent, so I hope SOME things are implemented to improve the adoptions and avoid anything like this again.

Yes, Chris, the old "it takes a village" thing is definitely something we've lost in the modern world. I'm not sure if it would bring about full world peace, but it'd sure make a huge, positive difference!!!




"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Monday, April 12, 2010 1:59 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Do you think mankind can ever get to the point of viewing children as people? Hasn't happened throughout history, so while I desperately wish it were possible, I have my doubts.


Take heart - folks once thought the very same about women and minorities!

It can happen, and I plan to make damn sure it does, a plan which, ironically, came to me *AS* a child.

-F

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Monday, April 12, 2010 2:11 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Niki, you know that "World peace" answer that runs its course in beauty pageants?

If I could do ANY one thing, I'd create a world family city for kids that need homes, parents, food, love, cartoons...

Take care of and love kids, and you'd GET world peace, IMO.


Absofuckinlutely - s'why I bang that drum as hard as I do.

On a lighter note, some of the gamers I hang with online are russian, and one of em, his younger sister (who is too young for me) has this bizarrely romanticized view of americans (she thinks we're all cowboys or something) and kept sayin she was gonna get herself mail ordered to me as one of them russian-bride things (I *think* she was joking, but with her it's hard to tell) seemingly unaware of just what kinda horror hides under those labels - thankfully the girl has the attention span of a hyperactive goldfish...

But point of that is, most folks have a ridiculously idealized view of such things without respect to the reality that people are people the world over, and many of em are assholes.

We can handle wolf-children, closet-kids, and the like, and now have the advantage that most of our available fosters and would-be adopters *were* originally mistreated kids, who have gone on to rebuild a normal life or something thereof, and as such when we find one with a specific problem, it's possible to hook them up with a "parent" who has also faced and overcome it, allowing them to give back some of the help they recieved and "pass it forward", which is theraputic for both involved.

Damn sad thing this one is too high profile for us to even get near it, much less involved, all we can do it hope it raises awareness of the plight of children everywhere.

I *do* however, find it tremendously offensive that everyone involved, including the media, is treating the kid like a pet or unwanted package, and not a single bloody one of em have asked HIS opinion on the matter whatever.

THAT foolishness I mean to change, right up to my last very breath.

-F

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Monday, April 12, 2010 7:13 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I *do* however, find it tremendously offensive that everyone involved, including the media, is treating the kid like a pet or unwanted package, and not a single bloody one of em have asked HIS opinion on the matter whatever.

THAT foolishness I mean to change, right up to my last very breath.

-F



Would you really want the media piling on a 7-year-old child who is already traumatized enough? Of all the people supposed to ask that child his opinion, random reporters looking for a soundbite don't enter my mind first.

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Monday, April 12, 2010 8:42 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Asking an already (allegedly) disturbed seven year old child how they feel about being abandoned yet again, you'd probably get a 'screw the world' reaction, and who can blame him.

There are international adoptions and international adoptions, if you know what I mean. Good organisations screen parents very carefully (so this woman would have been out) and they prepare them for what they might expect with a child and get them to really think through what they are taking on. Then there is the other extreme - shocking organisations which just do baby bartering, and all sorts of shoddy practices take place in the name of money - including kidnapping, falsifying medical records, no screening of adoptive parents.

Makes me sick to the stomach when I think about what children endure.

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Monday, April 12, 2010 11:31 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Oh I didn't mean us, or the newsies - I meant someone with the actual authority to act on that decision, sitting down across a table and honestly asking him for input, which I can all but guarantee you never happens in these cases.

And that's a damn sad thing.

Of course, when *I* was that age, I didn't subscribe to "seen and not heard", and you'd bloody well *know* my opinion whether you'd asked for it or not!

Prolly why the adults hated me so.

-F

ETA: Wendys Comment "Adults are just children grown old enough to matter."

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Monday, April 12, 2010 11:44 PM

AGENTROUKA


Frem,

I suspect the reason they don't ask the child is that they can probably not accomodate what the child would ask of them and need the most.

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Tuesday, April 13, 2010 4:25 AM

JONGSSTRAW


They interviewed the kid today and he said.....

"Flew in from Chattanooga, BOAC
Didn't get to bed last night
On the way the paper bag was on my knee
Man, I had a dreadful flight

I'm back in the former USSR
You don't know how lucky I are, boy
Back in the former USSR

Been away so long I hardly knew the place
Gee, it's good to be back home
Leave it till tomorrow to unpack my case
Honey, disconnect the phone

I'm back in the former USSR
You don't know how lucky I are, boy
Back in the US, back in the US
Back in the former USSR

Well the Ukraine girls really knock me out
They leave the Tenn. toothless behind
And Moscow girls make me sing and shout
That Georgia's always on m-m-my mind
Oh, come on

I'm back in the former USSR
You don't know how lucky I are, boys
Back in the former USSR


Oh, show me round the snow-peaked mountains way down south
Take me to you daddy's farm
Let me hear you balalaikas ringing out
Come and keep your comrade warm

I'm back in the former USSR
Hey, you don't know how lucky I are, boys
Back in the USSR
Oh, let me tell you honey. woo woo woo!"



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Tuesday, April 13, 2010 4:59 AM

BYTEMITE


Jongstraw? >_>

<_<

Might be just a little too soon. I think people are still outraged.

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Tuesday, April 13, 2010 5:04 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Frem, have you dealt with any of those kids who have that...is it "attachment-deficit" disorder? If so, did you have any luck, and how would you deal with this kid? Because it sounds to me very much like what he's got, and from what I hear, it's not only incredibly hard to deal with, sometimes you can NEVER truly help the child.

Just curious--obviously NOT excusing what was done and won't even address the woman or I'd go all nasty icons on 'ya...think I'm going to stay pissed about that one for a long time...


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Tuesday, April 13, 2010 5:19 AM

BYTEMITE


I know that's addressed to Frem... I don't know that it's impossible. In my experience, just because they don't really attach to people, they can still learn right from wrong. Choosing to be and do good is entirely another thing, but some do, and some even develop empathy, despite being unable to form close relationships with deeper emotional connections. They may not really feel affection towards anyone, or it might be exceedingly rare, but sometimes they do become able to imagine how and consider how another person might be feeling.

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Tuesday, April 13, 2010 6:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


This today:
Quote:

The driver hired to deliver an adopted Russian boy from the Moscow airport to the Russian education ministry last week said he was "shocked like a crazy man" when he realized what was happening.

Seven-year-old Justin Artyem was sent back to Russia alone by the Tennessee family that adopted him because of what they said was violent and psychotic behavior.

Arthur Lookyanov said the child was in "a good mood" during the two-hour ride Thursday morning, drawing pictures and playing with his Spiderman toy most of the time. But near the end of the ride, he cried, saying he missed "Grandma Nancy," Lookyanov said.

It was his adopted grandmother, Nancy Hansen, who bought Justin a one-way ticket on a United Airlines flight from Washington to Moscow and arranged for Lookyanov to meet him there.

Lookyanov provided CNN with a copy of his e-mail exchanges with Hansen.

"I am interested in hiring you for a pick-up from DME (Domodedovo Airport) to the office of the Ministry of Education and Science of the Russian Federation on Monday April 12th," Hansen initially wrote to Lookyanov, according to the e-mails.

Lookyanov responded with an extensive e-mail that included references for his work as a professional driver for foreign visitors. His fee would be $120, he said.

When Hansen later sent an e-mail to say she had booked a flight that would arrive on Thursday morning, she gave no hint that the passenger would be a child, Lookyanov said.

"I had not big plans so I can meet you at Domodedovo," Lookyanov wrote back to her. "Where are you going to stay in Moscow?"

It was not until Wednesday that Hansen told him his passenger would be a young boy who would be escorted through the airport by an airline employee carrying an envelope with two envelopes inside it, according to the e-mails.

"One is an envelope for the Ministry of Education, Tverskaya Street, 11, Moscow," Hansen wrote. "The other envelope will be addressed to you. Inside will be your payment in US Dollars."

Hansen instructed the driver to take the child inside the ministry and give the envelope to the receptionist.

When Lookyanov and the boy arrived at the ministry, he knew something was "terribly wrong" when he realized that no one was expecting him. When several women came down to investigate why he was there, they opened the envelope intended for the ministry.

"I am sorry to say that for the safety of my family, friends and myself I no longer wish to parent this child," wrote Torry Hansen, the adoptive mother.

An angry phone call to the United States followed, with Lookyanov talking to Nancy Hansen first, complaining that he had been deceived, he said.

Although the driver's duty was completed, he said, he stayed with the boy throughout the day as they waited for juvenile authorities to pick him up.

While they waited, Justin used his pencils to draw "a beautiful house" with only one small door. He also drew another boy who he said was Logan, his 10-year-old friend, according to Lookyanov.

At the end of the day, just before the boy was taken to a special hospital, he gave his driver two gifts. He handed him the United Airline wings he was given on the plane and a picture he had drawn while waiting at the ministry.

Lookyanov said the experience has left him sad and depressed. But the most difficult thing, he said, has been the negative comments made in the Russian media reports, some suggesting that he is partly to blame for the boy's plight. He said he wanted people to know that he had no idea his passenger was an adopted child being returned to Russia.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/04/13/russia.adoption.returned/in
dex.html?hpt=T2


Sick ("mother", not driver).


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Tuesday, April 13, 2010 9:10 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I suspect the reason they don't ask the child is that they can probably not accomodate what the child would ask of them and need the most.


I suspect, depending on his mood, what he might ask of em would likely be anatomically impossible...
But there's no harm in asking, and maybe even explaining why - I mean, half the time when an adult starts trying to explain *why* they said no, even the adult explaining it begins to realize they didn't do it for a logical reason, but out of sheer denial-reflex.
Makin em have to explain it tends to make em aware of it.

As for attachment disorders, Byte has the right of it, unless there are satellite conditions, despite not having an ability to really connect with other humans, they can CHOOSE how they want that to go - the main reason so many of em choose dark and vengeful roads is often how they have been treated, since they have no emotional bond as a check and balance to exploring in that direction, and strangely, rarely, some of em who have.. come back, simply... choose not to remain there, but that's a really hard thing to put in mere words to someone who's not dealt with it.

You gotta remember, I don't connect so well with other humans myself, and you better believe I'll steal a good idea if I see it - many of these kids still have the ability to connect with animals, and can establish a proxy bond via a mutually shared pet, and if they still have a bond at all, even a weak or damaged one, that can start to repair and strengthen it.

Was one of my schoolteachers who came up with that, getting a class pet and putting me in charge of it's care in order to have some of my connection with it bleed over on the class and put an end to my unending hostility towards them, since by that time I considered other humans to be "evil" since I didn't understand their behavior save to notice that most of it's effects on ME were negative, and I didn't like that not one bit.

It worked, too - I still miss that big ole bunny, a very large female lop-ear, who was quite reciprocating of my affection to the point of even learning most of the good doggie tricks, and could even manage a wheezy, asthmatic sounding purr.

Anyhows, most folks with problems aren't as bad off as they're made out to be, it's more that the folk tasked with helping them don't wanna spend the effort and start trying to rationalize and justify that - and two of the worst candidates for it are attachment disorders and autism spectrum kinda stuff, which often get the poor kid labelled a hopeless basketcase or sociopath, and shunted into what's called Class IV, aka, beyond all hope.

I suppose there are, I mean, considering we don't save em all, or even most of em - but even *starting* from a Class IV designation, we save a damn sight more than we logically ought to, which convinces me that said designation is often bullshit - of course, TRY calling bullshit on it without a whole wall full of expensive paper from some so-called educational institution, which if you pressed them into a corner, would freely admit to you that when it comes to the real workings of the human mind, we don't really "know" hardly a damned thing.

Funny note to that, considering we do deal with a lot of folk who have Sensory Defensiveness...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_defensiveness

Mind you, I used to have a bad, bad cause of that myself, you did *not* touch me without permission cause I'd go all berserkerang on you without warning, and literally COULDN'T stop till the "threat" was removed from my presence - that was directly related to the only human physical contact I had for almost a decade being violent or controlling in nature and a direct reaction to it in combination with an inability to form emotional attachments to my own kind.

So, that was a major factor in building the fortress of solitude, as some call it, our sensory-safe quiet room that cannot be opened from outside, I think I mentioned that before, right ?

Well, apparently there was a concurrent evolution of that same idea over in the Netherlands, which is IMHO, about 25 years ahead of us in effectively dealing with children, both normal and with problems - one reason that I will immediately point out when the guns/safe society/sanity issue raises it's head, it's not cause them people are armed, it's cause they're saner, and that is a DIRECT result of treating their kids better, but anyhows...

They came up with a similar room idea we're thinking of trying to adapt in a modular form, so the room can be refitted at need on a case by case basis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snoezelen

Very interesting, and with possible beneficial effects even for normal children, and as helpful stimulation for very young folk with potential problems that haven't sprouted into the full dark flower just quite yet.

All in all, yeah, were we involved, we could prolly do something for the kid, but we don't dare given how public the whole matter is.

-Frem

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Tuesday, April 13, 2010 9:33 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Betcha that bunny gave off more signs of happiness than you knew; the rabbit equivalent of "wagging their tail" or "purring" is "tooth grainding"....they move their jaw back and forth as if they were chewing something. It's unmistakeable, and cute as hell.

I love it when my guys do that, it's kind of an honor. And bunnies like best having you put your hand over their face and stroke backward...it gives the sense of "hiding" and they adore it. Some like scritches behind the ears, or stroking the ears, but I guarantee that hand over the face thing makes 'em ecstatic.

I've only got one that gives kisses back now, lost the other one to the (expletive deleted) husky...she's the Netherland Dwarf, tiniest breed of bunny, and she's one fierce little thing to others, loves me.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Tuesday, April 13, 2010 11:16 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Oh yes, that Bunny completely adored me, that thingie you mentioned, and it would follow me around and hop up in my lap when I sat down.
(Said bunny was well behaved enough to have free run of the classroom)

Also, I dunno how common it is, at the time I didn't know diddly about rabbits, so I figured she was smart enough... and litter box trained her, too.

Having just looked that up, apparently it's not uncommon NOW, but given I didn't much tell anyone till after the fact, the general reaction was "that's impossible!" back at the time.

She'd sit up, beg, roll over, play dead - not quite fetch, but if she really wanted she would push things around...

Oh, and she loved twinkies, which we prolly not real good for her, but since she saw ME eating them, she wanted - and I am something of a sucker, especially back then when the idea of anything on the planet not hating me was kinda foreign to me.

Mind you, this was a BIG bunny, not as big as Humphrey here, but certainly in a 10-13lb range.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-514728/Hopping-record-books-Hu
mphrey-stone-rabbit-king-big-bucks.html


-F

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Tuesday, April 13, 2010 11:47 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yeah, I got that she wasn't a dwarf--luckily for her, because sugar is anathema to rabbits, can cause serious internal problems and even death. I have to be very careful with mine...tho' I'm a woos, too, and all three adore the ice tea I live with 24/7, so I give 'em a sip now and again.

And yes, rabbits can be litter-box trained, fairly easily. Most pet stores sell little snap-on "toilet" trays for rabbit cages. I've never bothered, but I'm lazy and just sweep up after them when they go back to their cages. If I didn't, the dogs would have a ball; we call them "rabbit raisins".

I 'trained' Midi (my Netherland Dwarf) several things, but I just enjoy their company mostly, training is for dogs to me. Besides, I love their natural behaviors most of all; when they get what we call "rogue neurals" and sprint off this way and that, their love of digging, pushing stuff around with their noses as you said, and all that.

Dwarf rabbits are usually more feisty than regular ones, but I've been lucky, all mine have been great--Midi's "rasty", but that's about it, and none of them have bitten us. I think rabbits are cool, and Midi's SO tiny, it's like having a little stuffed toy to snuggle.

This is when I first got her...she was abut 3/4 grown, so you can imagine how tiny she still is!

I'm grateful to the rabbit you had; look what she helped give us, in you!


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Tuesday, April 13, 2010 12:36 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Frem, have you dealt with any of those kids who have that...is it "attachment-deficit" disorder? If so, did you have any luck, and how would you deal with this kid? Because it sounds to me very much like what he's got, and from what I hear, it's not only incredibly hard to deal with, sometimes you can NEVER truly help the child.

Just curious--obviously NOT excusing what was done and won't even address the woman or I'd go all nasty icons on 'ya...think I'm going to stay pissed about that one for a long time...




I think the latest term is Reactive Attachment Disorder and there are treatments that claim to be effective.

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Tuesday, April 13, 2010 12:50 PM

BYTEMITE


"Most treatments involve increasing the responsiveness and sensitivity of the caregiver..." -Wikipedia

But what if it's got to the point where the kid just wants to be left alone? <_<

All of these personality disorders. Sometimes I think we oughta just leave people be.

I also wonder about all of this blaming the caregiver stuff. Sometimes it seems too easy an explanation for all the complexities that go on in our brains. Yeah, there's abuse, yeah, abuse causes a lot of issues, but I don't buy that there's all these people remembering stuff that happened to them before they were three. Seems to me like psychiatrists taking advantage of the inherent suggestibility of memory.

Again, I'm not saying that abuse doesn't happen, and RAD probably is caused by abuse. But I think some people don't actually have problems, and people go looking for causes anyway.

What if this kid and Hansen just didn't connect? What if the adoptive mother is lying about the degree of problems the kid was exhibiting because she wasn't ready or because of that lack of connection?

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Tuesday, April 13, 2010 1:50 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
"Most treatments involve increasing the responsiveness and sensitivity of the caregiver..." -Wikipedia

But what if it's got to the point where the kid just wants to be left alone? <_<

All of these personality disorders. Sometimes I think we oughta just leave people be.

I also wonder about all of this blaming the caregiver stuff. Sometimes it seems too easy an explanation for all the complexities that go on in our brains. Yeah, there's abuse, yeah, abuse causes a lot of issues, but I don't buy that there's all these people remembering stuff that happened to them before they were three. Seems to me like psychiatrists taking advantage of the inherent suggestibility of memory.

Again, I'm not saying that abuse doesn't happen, and RAD probably is caused by abuse. But I think some people don't actually have problems, and people go looking for causes anyway.

What if this kid and Hansen just didn't connect? What if the adoptive mother is lying about the degree of problems the kid was exhibiting because she wasn't ready or because of that lack of connection?



There's a lot of interesting (and terrifying data) that has come out of kids raised in orphanges, firstly with Bowlby and English orphanages mid century and more recently, orphanages in the Baltic states in the 90's. The evidence is pretty clear these days that abuse and neglect, particularly in early infancy results in something akin to brain damage in a child. The brain doesn't develop properly when you are not held and treated with loving care. The ratio of carers in the Baltic state orphanages meant that most babies just weren't able to get enough of that loving care to thrive, it's not necessarily a criticism of the carers, just the system and of course, war which inadvertently leads to orphans. It's kind of official, war leads to generational brain damage.

Anyway, there is a fondness for over diagnosing these days, you are right. My understanding is that RAD children are at the extreme end of the spectrum, not where they are doing a bit of acting out, or outside the box behaviours, but really difficult, anti social and behaviioural problems, the kind of which would lead to jail or mental incapacity later in life.

How you treat it is another story, and has it's fair share of controversies. But I guess what is inarguable is the plasticity of the brain and it's ability to heal, even when there has been significant trauma.

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 4:57 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Very much inarguable, although I will add from empirical evidence that females tend to be far more resilient than males in that rebound, although we've never been able to pin down exactly why.

Like I said, we do get mostly "lost cause" kids, considered irredeemable basketcases, and one of my specialties is "unshelling" or "reattaching" a kid gone total catatonic - striving to hold onto the tenuous bond I have with other humans has given me a lot of insight into the subtleties of it, and because of that I can coax them out better than anyone else we got cause I can "feel" their sense change in response to stimuli when most folk would completely miss the opportunity that presents.

The extremes that result in it come from either sensory overload on one end, and leave-me-alone taken to the Nth degree on the other, both of which are immediately mollified to some extent by limiting external stimuli - most folk wouldn't think to put a sleeping mask or blindfold on a catatonic in a soundproofed room and then try a minimalist aromatherapy, it seems almost counterintuitive until you really think it all the way through.

baking bread, fresh grass and laundry dryer exhaust have been our greatest hits on that front, the latter especially cause we've never come across a single person who hasn't shown a positive reaction to it.

As for overdiagnosing, I addressed that in another thread - but it's not so much overdiagnosis as wanting to pigeonhole and category stuff rather than spending the time and effort on an individualized diagnosis, which is IMHO, where things start to go all wrong every time in conventional therapies.

Some of the "hopeless basketcases" that wound up with us were barely even Class-II, and fully capable of leading a normal life with a mere minimum of theraputic investment - but admittedly those split about 50/50, half were just low priority kids nobody wanted to "waste" resources on, and the other half (hellcamp kids) were iatrogenic, the "shrinks" having been complicit in their abuse and incarceration, it was impossible for a conventional therapist to build the necessary trust-relationship required, and any/every attempt to force that issue would just make them worse, not better.

Mostly though, it's a lack of patience, understanding of the critical NEED for patience, cause once a conventional therapist starts pushing on a patient with issues, the patients issues can and will start pushing back, till where you get a nasty bit of almost hardwired defense complex - which is, as I discussed with Littlebird a while back, something I know all too damned much about.

And once they've done that, once that sacred trust has been violated, then you *HAVE* to go to an alternate source for treatment, cause again, anything else is just gonna make em worse off.

-Frem

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 6:16 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ahhh, now we're entering MY world. There is no question that today there is an over-dependence on drugs, and overdiagnosis of people who might well be okay on their own. The worst problem is with children; parents who think their kids "have problems" or were told so by the school because of acting out, etc. Let me say that right off.

With adult it's much more complicated. Under the guidelines of DSM-IV--oops, it's now DSM-V (the Diagnostics and Statistics Manual, the p-doc's "bible"), whatever problems we may have are not a "disorder" unless they severely hamper our ability function. So as to leaving people alone, aside from children, trust me, we don't get better on our own (although in old age, a lot of people's disorders go away, admittedly, and some young people grow out of it as their bodies change). So it's much harder for adults to be diagnosed when they're just in a funk or somesuch thing.

Children, now, that's a serious problem. I HATE to see young kids put on any kind of meds, because until they're at the very LEAST teenagers, you usually can't truly judge what's going on--they're still in the formative stage. It's actually sometimes even harder with teens, because...well, you know why!

BUT, in cases where it's needed, it's invaluable. Here are three: We have had two young people on the forum I run for the mentally disordered, both are bipolar. Their lives were hell; every Spring H would go manic (it's pretty common for depressive episodes in Winter and mania in Spring for us: light, among other things). One year she was firmly convinced she was an angel and could save everyone. This is not teenage acting out, for a couple of months she was absoutely certain and rejected any attempts at help, because of course there was nothing wrong in her eyes.

They finally stabilized her meds and she was okay--sometimes even regular meds don't work, so we learn to "jiggle" our "cocktails". Every Spring H went through one form or another of mania, but as she matured out of teen years, she got a better handle on it and she's now in her twenties, functioning normally and enjoying life. Can you imagine what happens to a teenager in a case like this? Just the loss of friends, boyfriends, the difficulties in home and at school, the abuse by other kids...Frem can well tell you, no doubt!

Now we have W; her case is less severe, but it's complicated by the onset of bad asthma over the past two years, which has actually caused her as many problems as the bipolarity, and complicated same because of meds and what asthma triggers. They haven't quite got her meds worked out yet, but she's getting better. She's in her mid-teens right now.

Then there's my own family. This will take a bit. After years of a miserable time together, I got dx'd at 48. I'm a bear on self-education, so I learned a lot about mental disorders, especialy my own, and while reading began to recognize something. My husband, Jim, fit the definition of "dysthymic" to a T (chronic mild depression, inability to recognize positive things in life, rages over small things, and more). I sent him to a p-doc and he got diagnosed and put on meds.

He changed dramatically, and began reading about anger management, buddhism, etc. He went off a couple of times (not unusual, we feel so "cured" on the RIGHT meds, we sometimes believe we are and NOBODY wants to take meds, especially psychotropics!); we could tell within a week of his going off. He was the dominant influence in our home until the past ten years, and when his kids or brother lived with us, we all lived on eggshells and under a "cloud" of his moods.

Now, he's off meds and a completely different person from the guy I knew all those years. His anger flares and almost instantly disappears, he's patient, loving, LAUGHS (!)...the mixture of meds showing him how it could be, his own self-education and efforts, and age have turned his life, AND MINE, completely around. I've never known a man as wonderful as him now.

Then there's his brother, who lived with us for 20 years. Briefly; he was initially diagnosed with depression (otherwise known as unipolarity), they put him on anti-depressents and he went manic. This is a problem they've grappled with for ages; while we can be depressed and present as such, if we're not on a "cocktail" of both anti-depressants AND mood stabilizers, it can send us manic. Many have been hospitalized, some committed suicide, and even people who showed no signs of bipolarity previously, had it triggered and were bipolar the rest of their lives. They're getting a handle on it; back when I was dx'd, it happened WAY to frequently. Like to me.

So we have Jim with dysthymia and Curt with bipolarity, and Curt (who was closer to their family) looked back and recognized a couple of their relatives on his dad's side had been "eccentric" or even hospitalized. The gene is there.

Jim's daughter has NEVER had any problems, he's one of the most stable, even-keeled people I've ever met. Then she had a daughter. By the age of two, M was really hyperactive--sharp as a whip, but she went through "phases". I talked to L and found I didn't have to; she was already aware after what happened to her father and uncle, and told me she was going to "watch".

She did nothing until a year ago, when M began having nightmares and couldn't sleep for weeks on end. She was having trouble at school and with friends. Lisa sought help, they found her the right meds, and she's a happy kid again--she's 13 and off meds, but will go back on them if the symptoms resume. I'm against keeping kids on meds if there's any other possible solution.

All three of these girls fit the profile perfectly: Higher than average IQ, artistic, empathetic, sensitive, moody, talented. M in particular has been in her drama class and school plays since an early age, has a great voice, dances and has been in small indie films. She was scary as a child; WAAYY too bright and mature, it was almost freaky.

There are three examples of young people for whom it was a lifesaver to be dx'd and medicated and it has made a dramatic change in their lives.

So, except that I agree over-diagnosis and medication IS a problem with youngsters, mostly I agree with Frem:
Quote:

it's not so much overdiagnosis as wanting to pigeonhole and category stuff rather than spending the time and effort on an individualized diagnosis, which is IMHO, where things start to go all wrong every time in conventional therapies.
. Not "every" time, but yes, therapy can be as dangerous as it can be helpful. I won't go on about that, but it's true. And pigeonholing is a REAL problem. Many of us carry traits from one or more "disorder"--I've got some mild OCD and a bit of borderline...tho' that's where it starts to get difficult. Detecting a borderline from a bipolar is hard, because we share many symptoms. Luckily mine fit bipolarity clearly, so it wasn't that difficult, but MANY people get mis-diagnosed (on my single favorite bipolar website--in Australia by the way--the owner has fantastic information, and says it can sometimes take ten YEARS to get the right dx, and up to another five to accept it).

My bits of OCD and borderline don't affect my functioning enough to be called "disorders", my research just showed me I have them. But my bipolarity has affected my entire life, and unfortunately this stuff wasn't as well understood as I grew up, so I didn't get dx'd until I was 48. I used to wonder what my life would have been like if I'd been dx'd and medicated earlier...there were two different careers I could have gone into that would have been enormously fulfilling and which people pushed me toward, telling me I had an aptitude. I wish I'd had the chance. But my life is good, I'm not complaining.

Dunno if this is helping anyone; my main point is that Frem's got it right that there's way too much desire on the part of p-docs to pigeonhole us...and more...and I know some of the reasons. I could say a lot about p-docs! The problem with pigeonholing is that we are all different, all affected by our disorders differently, and meds affect each person differently. There was a study done of p-doc who saw people presenting with depression for half an hour; X number of the people were diagnosed depressives. They switched everyone around and gave the p-docs an hour and a half with them; a much larger numer of people were dx'd with bipolarity.

There is too much over-diagnosis of children, which you can blame more than half of on schools. Things like Ritalin are badly over-used. Teachers are dealing with large classes, they haven't the time or energy to deal with "problem" children, so parents are pushed into putting their kids on meds and/or into therapy. And too often when that doesn't work, into the realm Frem deals with.

Therapy (especially on a young person) can be more dangerous than helpful, definitely. I've never heard it described as such, but I'm going to write it down and save it, Frem, because you came up with the most concise, clear explanation of the danger of therapy I've ever heard:
Quote:

once a conventional therapist starts pushing on a patient with issues, the patients issues can and will start pushing back
That nails it fantastically! So does
Quote:

it was impossible for a conventional therapist to build the necessary trust-relationship required, and any/every attempt to force that issue would just make them worse, not better
Building up trust is VITAL in therapy for anything to work; if that trust is damaged, abuse can do horrible things, and the person's inability to trust the therapist essentially stops any possiblity of the therapist helping them. (By the way, we had custody of Jim's young son for a few years, tried two kinds of therapy, talk and a live-in group home, and it scarred both him and Jim and I forever...both were disasterous. Turned out years later he was dx'd Bipolar II, like me, and he's doing great now.)

It's a blessing beyond belief when there's someone around like Frem to fight for these kids and ESPECIALLY to care enough to deal with the hard cases. There are no effective "cocktails" for RAD, nothing pharmaceutical that will let them lead a functional, good-quality life, and the vast majority of people just can't deal with a serious case. If it weren't for Frem and people like him, of which there aren't nearly enough, those lives would be lost forever, which is unthinkable.

Sorry for the ramble, it's a subject obviously close to my heart and which I've learned a TON about, not just by my own self-education but because I've been part of several different websites since diagnosis 15 years ago, been through several p-docs and therapists, been through mental disorder with my husband, brother-in-law, and Jo, whom I brought from England and who turned out to be BOTH borderline and Bipolar I (your imaginations would fail you, trust me), headed up a support group for a couple of years, and have known most of the people on the website I run for over ten years, so have been privileged to watch the paths their lives have taken.

Thanx for listening. One more time: Frem, thanx for existing and caring so much. You are worth your weight in gold, and more...bless you.




"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 6:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, Frem, I can easily explain why
Quote:

females tend to be far more resilient than males in that rebound
, or at least in part. Women TALK, it's how we process things; men DO--like gym exercise, sports, etc. They are less inclined to "work things out", more inclined to "fix"...if they can't "fix", they're stuck; often times anger is the result, or pulling away.

I've seen it dozens of times, even with Jim...and if you've ever read "Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus", you'd get a wonderful insight into how our brains are wired differently.

BECAUSE we talk, women are more likely to be more open than men, too, and somewhat more willing to trust...we NEED that outlet of talking in order to process things; for men, it's a more alien concept.

There are more reasons, of course, but I have no doubt that's part of it. Goes back to caveman genes.

By the way, rarely are people "born" with disorders. We carry the GENETIC PROPENSITY...it takes something to cause the gene to manifest. And that something, far more often than not, is childhood abuse or trauma, be it psychological, physical, sexual or the sort of abandonment that causes RAD. We can also manifest by later trauma, PTSD, or head injury, but from what I've seen, upbringing is by far the biggest cause. Back to "it takes a village..."


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 7:27 AM

BYTEMITE


I see how it helps, also seen how it hurts. Frem is a helper.

Something about what's being said here is setting something ugly off in me, not sure what it is, wants to snarl and bite. Going to not say anything more.

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 8:36 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I can understand your feelings, Byte, given your previous post. I'd like to try and respond to some of what you wrote
Quote:

All of these personality disorders. Sometimes I think we oughta just leave people be.

I also wonder about all of this blaming the caregiver stuff. Sometimes it seems too easy an explanation for all the complexities that go on in our brains. Yeah, there's abuse, yeah, abuse causes a lot of issues, but I don't buy that there's all these people remembering stuff that happened to them before they were three. Seems to me like psychiatrists taking advantage of the inherent suggestibility of memory.

Again, I'm not saying that abuse doesn't happen, and RAD probably is caused by abuse. But I think some people don't actually have problems, and people go looking for causes anyway.

What if this kid and Hansen just didn't connect? What if the adoptive mother is lying about the degree of problems the kid was exhibiting because she wasn't ready or because of that lack of connection?

Coupla things. Check out RAD; some of the things these kids do is terrifying, and it doesn't necessarily come from "abuse", it comes from not bonding...generally places LIKE overseas, where kids are just thrown into orphanages and nobody gives 'em any love--or even attention. Negative attention doesn't necessarily cause RAD, it's the virtually complete lack of human interaction.

Me, I don't hate bad caregivers--in the above, the orphanages are so overwhelmed with kids, it's virtually impossible for it NOT to happen. Even with plain old abusers, I don't hate them...I hate what they DO, but usually abusers were abused themselves, so it's hard to hate a victim. You find this stuff runs in families most of the time. Something needs to be done to HELP the kid, because it's usually too late for the abuser, but that doesn't mean we have to blame them entirely.

Yes, there is a serious problem with "remembered" abuse. It sickens me, for all the damage it can do to everyone in the family. There are good and bad p-docs AND therapists, that's a fact...and maybe even more bad ones than good ones. Even some of the good ones do the absolutely wrong thing for all the good reasons; messing with people's minds and emotions is damned dangerous and just like religion, there's a component of power which can affect therapists unconsciously. Having that much trust put in a person's hands can make it far too easy to fall into a control position. As for p-docs, I TRULY believe that there are far more 'bad" ones than good, both from my own experience and that of others. There are many reasons; their education pushes toward medication, they're on the bottom rung of "physicians", again the power thing, and more. We only go to p-docs for rx as therapists can't prescribe; other than that, I wouldn't touch them with a ten-foot pole!

The scariest thing nowadays is that so many p-docs won't take a patient on unless they agree to let the p-doc ALSO do the therapy. It's terrifying; they're not trained for it, they don't (in many cases can't) make the necessary empathetic connection, and most are doing it because you see a p-doc once every few months, whereas a therapist once or twice a week (more money). It shouldn't be allowed, and it scares me to think of those trapped by this Catch-22.

For the most part, people don’t have problems that others go looking for causes...in children, as I said, yes, it’s happening too frequently, but for adults, 99% of the time there has to be something SERIOUSLY wrong for someone to want to see a p-doc or get medicated. As I said, nobody wants to take this stuff, sometimes the side effects can be horrendous, and what works for one person may well not work for another, etc. Plus the stigma, which is bad enough for kids (for whom being medicated should be kept TOTALLY in the family!), but believe me, nobody wants to be called “mentally ill” and, as I said, it can take up to five years to even ACCEPT a diagnosis of some sort of disorder. So the problem is almost entirely with children, the school system, parents giving up...all the things Frem has encountered.

The adoptive mother could be lying; gawd knows there are enough out there who can’t deal with just the normal stuff accompanying having a child, and if they adopted out of some altruistic motive but didn’t think about what they’d actually have to deal with, it’s reprehensible. At the same time, I’ve seen documentaries on RAD, and, well, it boggles the mind the lengths to which parents have to go to deal with it. I’d bet the vast percentage can’t...as far as I know, most of the kids suffering from RAD come from countries overseas inundated with orphans and live in conditions we can’t even imagine. It’s different than a kid with “problems” over here. We can’t know the truth, but I’m betting, given he came from Russia, that dealing with him was something they weren’t at all prepared for. It’s not about the mother ‘not connecting”, it’s about the connection not made when he was FAR younger; as Frem can attest, not having that connection early can damage a child for life. Magons said it perfectly:
Quote:

The evidence is pretty clear these days that abuse and neglect, particularly in early infancy results in something akin to brain damage in a child. The brain doesn't develop properly when you are not held and treated with loving care. The ratio of carers in the Baltic state orphanages meant that most babies just weren't able to get enough of that loving care to thrive, it's not necessarily a criticism of the carers, just the system and of course, war which inadvertently leads to orphans. It's kind of official, war leads to generational brain damage.
It’s nobody’s “fault”, and often doesn’t involve abuse per se, just the lack of nurturing which makes for inability to empathize or connect.

For some further information:
Quote:

Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) is a complex psychiatric illness that can affect young children. It is characterized by serious problems in emotional attachments to others. RAD usually presents by age 5, but a parent, caregiver or physician may notice that a child has problems with emotional attachment by their first birthday. Often, a parent brings an infant or very young child to the doctor with one or more of the following concerns:

• severe colic and/or feeding difficulties
• failure to gain weight
• detached and unresponsive behavior
• difficulty being comforted
• preoccupied and/or defiant behavior
• inhibition or hesitancy in social interactions
• disinhibition or inappropriate familiarity or closeness with strangers.

The physical, emotional and social problems associated with RAD may persist as the child grows older.

Most children with Reactive Attachment Disorder have had severe problems or disruptions in their early relationships. Many have been physically or emotionally abused or neglected. Some have experienced inadequate care in an institutional setting or other out-of-home placement (for example a hospital, residential program, foster care or orphanage). Others have had multiple or traumatic losses or changes in their primary caregiver. The exact cause of Reactive Attachment Disorder is not known.

Children who exhibit signs of Reactive Attachment Disorder need a comprehensive psychiatric assessment and individualized treatment plan. These signs or symptoms may also be found in other psychiatric disorders. A child should never be given this label or diagnosis without a comprehensive evaluation.

Treatment of this complex disorder involves both the child and the family. Therapists focus on understanding and strengthening the relationship between a child and his or her primary care givers. Without treatment, this condition can affect permanently a child's social and emotional development. However, unconventional and forced treatments such as "rebirthing" strategies are potentially dangerous and should be avoided.
Parents of a young child who shows signs or symptoms of Reactive Attachment Disorder should:

• seek a comprehensive psychiatric evaluation by a qualified mental health professional prior to the initiation of any treatment

• make sure they understand the risks as well as the potential benefits of any intervention

• feel free to seek a second opinion if they have questions or concerns about the diagnosis and/or treatment plan

Reactive Attachment Disorder is a serious clinical condition. Fortunately, it is relatively rare. Evaluating and treating children with complex child psychiatric disorders such as Reactive Attachment Disorder is challenging. There are no simple solutions or magic answers. However, close and ongoing collaboration between the child's family and the treatment team will increase the likelihood of a successful outcome.

That doesn’t sound as bad as it actually IS to deal with a child with RAD, nor does it mention that it’s often children from war zones who suffer from it, but both are facts.



That’s the best I could find, and it’s not nearly good enough. The documentary I saw, a little boy’s room was nothing but a mattress on the floor; he had to wear a helmet all the time because he would bang his head against the wall; when he raged, his mother would wrap her arms around him and hold on for dear life, hold him until it passed, and he did her considerable damage doing so; he had threatened his mother with a knife, and even tho’ a child, was strong enough to overpower her.

It’s something you can’t imagine or truly understand unless you experience it. I understand it can be difficult to accept, but there are people/children out there who need us to better understand, and adoptions should not be allowed unless the parent truly know what they're in for.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 8:51 AM

BYTEMITE


I think maybe the problem is when someone said "attachment deficit" I didn't think of RAD, and I'm still not really thinking of RAD. If increasing touchy-feely helps RAD, I wouldn't know, can't judge.

But there's personality disorders out there that are also have attachment issues. I was feeling grumpy, in a mood, calling back on my own experiences and desires to be left alone. So, yeah, that's why I said what I did. I still don't really want to have relationships with anyone in real life, people are too incomprehensible, frustrating, and demanding. Friendships take too much effort, and god forbid ROMANTIC garbage crap, I don't like being touched. Going to a therapist to try to change that about myself is not something I want to do. It's something I'm defensive about, I guess, because of how people where I live react to that. I don't like being told it's a phase, or when they realize it's not that something's wrong with me and I should get help. I'm happy being on my own, happier than I'd be otherwise.

I think that's where the snarly is coming from here. I'ma go give your post a more thorough read and try to keep an open mind. I know this is different than what's going on with me, it's minor parallels I'm struggling with.

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 9:24 AM

BYTEMITE


It seems to be three things that are provoking me.

First, the diagnosis and meds thing. The more I think about it, about all my meds did was keep me from suicide. Just turned me into a zombie. So I'm reacting badly to the diagnosis and meds part of it, how you talk about people were so much better after they got properly diagnosed and medicated.

Second, the upbringing thing, I know it's true for a lot of people and kids, yet it's directly in conflict with my own experiences, because there was nothing in my past to give me the disorders I have.

And third, the touchy-feely thing, which I will always react negatively towards.

And here's another thing, why do we always have to be HAPPY and content most of the time to be well-adjusted and living a good quality of life? Emotions are just a state of being, right? So why does it matter if I'm filled with despair or anxiety or anger or am suicidal at times? If I never act on any of those things, then why's it a big deal?

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 10:00 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

I still don't really want to have relationships with anyone in real life, people are too incomprehensible, frustrating, and demanding. Friendships take too much effort
Oh boy oh boy, do I relate to THAT one! I made few friends after we moved here, and for years now it's only been those who live in our house. I'm very lucky that Choey took up my invitation and moved West--and so is she, because she, too, has no desire to make new friendships (she's Bipolar I, and has a MUCH rougher time than I do!). Jim's never been "social" either, so all three of us are quite happy doing our own thing, relating to one another some, and not making new friendships.

If Jim weren't here, or if he dies before me, I will NEVER have another romantic relationship. By my age, I've learned too much about the bad parts for the good parts to outweigh them! Besides, after having a woman for a lover, no man can come close!

Yes, for far too many people, they get the wrong meds and it's worse than being unmedicated. My "hero", Hagop Akiskal, who understands bipolar prefectly, has said that the concept seems to be to medicate people until they don't "act out", whereas it should be to resolve the SYMPTOMS, allowing the person to live their own life. Far too many people go "med uncompliant" because of what you described, or the horrible side effects, and it's just plain wrong.

There may be nothing in your past, which I can accept--the human brain being what it is, we can never know anything definitive. But I, too, thought there was nothing in my past and felt I didn't "deserve" to have some kind of disorder because of that. I lucked into a particular kind of therapy where there were people with HORRIBLE past who HAD been affected by them, and the therapist told me that psychological abuse can be every bit as bad as physical or sexual, even worse in that we don't see it as abuse so feel like I did.

As I continued from there on, I saw more and more the manipulation and emotional abuse my mom had put me through and realized the problem wasn't ME, it was what she'd done to me...it was subtle as I was growing up, and it was only when I tried to SEE it that a whole world opened up for me. And no, it didn't come about through regressing or any fancy therapy, just being with others and the support of the therapist to find my own way. Yes, EMDR later on was a big part of it, but it was only insofar as being able to look at what happened in the past, as an adult, and see and hear what happened, whereas as a child, I just internalized it and didn't question it.

I'm not saying that's the case for you, just that for some of us, we aren't actually conscious of te messages we internalized.

The touchy-feely thing works for some people, not for others. You have every right to feel as you do about it, but it MIGHT just indicate something in your past. I HATED being hugged and resisted it something fierce. After that therapy, I LOVE being hugged, tho' sometimes I still have to overcome an instinctive resitance to it. I came to realize that my mother USED being hugged, it was payment and she demanded it (not overtly, she just trained me). I realized after that, that my early feelings had been because I saw hugging as her clawing hands forcing me, and now I'm free of that. And her. And a LOT of the messages she gave me. Some I will carry forever, but I'm damned glad to have gotten past the subconscious ones I internalized back then.

NOBODY says we have to be happy, Byte, far from it. Adversity helps us grow, and everyone has bad times. Diagnosis comes for people who can't get OUT of being unhappy, who have severe enough symptoms that they need and want help. Everyone is filled with anger, anxiety and despair at times; when it's all you know, the reverse question comes into being: Why should we be UNhappy all the time?

Good quality of life doesn't mean being chipper and happy all the time. For most people, happiness or contentment are fleeting and occasional at best. But why should a person be filled with misery ALL the time? Why should a perseon be driven to suicide by a crossed synapsis in their brain which would otherwise allow them to be happy sometimes, content sometimes, angry sometimes and sad sometimes?

You have absolutely NO reason to believe me, and I hope you don't take offense at this. But from my experience and having known people (albeit mostly through the internet the past ten years), I think there's something there.

I see:

A strong reaction to something that has nothing to do with you;

Justification that there was nothing in your childhood which would cause any disorder;

Rationalization that there's no need to be happy "most of the time" (which nobody IS);

Pretty strong dislike of being touched;

Rationale that "Emotions are just a state of being"...they are that, but the state of being isn't good if suicidal thoughts and/or ideation is there;

It's neither here nor there unless you want it to be, and has no relevance to the topic under discussion. Given you've had bad experiences with meds (and possibly with therapy?), I'm not surprised you feel as you do about it. Meds should never make us feel like zombies; that means the p-doc didn't bother to work with the person to get the meds RIGHT, as Hagop says.

That I see things there which you do not is totally unimportant, I just feel the need to point them out, because they could indicate something. If you like your life the way it is and nothing gets in the way of you functioning or doing what you want to do, it doesn't matter in the slightest.

For me, I know when I came up against something that triggered me but I didn't know why, it was something I investigated. I spent a lifetime in denial, thinking nothing had happened to me, I was just "born" that way, but once I gave it a try, my life literally turned around. It's far from perfect, trust me, but it's better than it ever was before, and I've been able to actually love myself while accepting the negatives. That seemed like an incomprehensible thing to me most of my life.

My disorder cost me a career, when I fully expected to go on working until old age. Accepting disability took me longer than accepting the diagnosis by far, again because of the stigma and the thing most people who live on disability feel: that we're somehow "less than", and that we should be pulling our own weight. It's called guilt. Most of us who are on disability because of mental conditions, especially if we were what we thought was "successful" before it, fight a strong sense of guilt. I hate that I can't work; I miss so many things about it, not to mention the money (!), but over time I came to realize that the career I'd kind of "fallen into" was the worst possible career for a bipolar, and eventually caused my bipolarity to manifest to the point where it left me incapable of continuing. Now my life is quiet and I take care of the disorder, "fight" it in the ways I can, accept it in other ways. My life is better, on the whole.

I hope I haven't offended. Please get as pissed at me as you want if I've overstepped my bounds...I tend to be driven by instinct far too often I know, but after all I've seen, read and experienced, I can't help it. Everyone should be at peace with their life as much as outside circumstances allow, and when I see things, I go with my gut. Please forgive my impulsivity.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 10:08 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Hoo lordy!

Ok, gimme a minnit, gotta absorb alla this and address it.

Actually that rant was a bit of a two parter, and instead of jumpin back and forth I'll just repost the other half from the other thread to start with.
Quote:


Bah, any pysch diagnoses MUST be individual to the patient, and individualized or you're just wasting your time.

All too often modern medicine tries to pigeonhole classify stuff and then throw a pill at it and that works about as well as treating tuberculosis with cough syrup, ok ?

And you can ONLY do a proper diagnosis by expending the time and effort observing your potentive patient over a substantial period of time in a controlled environment - that's not just talk, that's the bare minimum facts, hell, even diagnosing a behavioral disorder takes a minimum of 90 minutes of observation within a controlled environment...

So yeah, when I see a 10minute question-checklist "diagnosis" steam starts rollin out my ears - I don't CARE how much paper they have from some so-called educational institution, I will bet my empiric diagnosis (which takes all day) versus their quickie checklist any day of the week, and I would lay good money on it to boot!

Ironically, one of the best folk we ever had, and still do, to help make those kinds of diagnosis, or at least assist with em, is a dude who used to be a professional gambler specialising in poker - his ability to spot behaviorial traits and quirks that would often pass the notice of a less observant individual has been an invaluable resource, especially in combination with someone who has the skill and experience to add up those things and speculate as to the root causes behind them.

But what it comes down to, with this, all of this, is that people are PEOPLE, human beings, each and every one as individual and unique as a snowflake, and every diagnosis and treatment MUST reflect that, or you're just wasting your time, potentially harming your patient and indulging in what I feel to be gross criminal negligence in your responsibility to them.

Ergo, I take a very, VERY dim view of most conventional psych people, despite having no formal education at all - which matters a hell of a lot less to the poor folks asking you for help than whether or not you know what the hell you're doing - all they really have is a buncha theories, some of em from KNOWN liars and nutters, educated guesses, and the ability to prescribe drugs that can temporarily abate the symptoms, but for them trying to even find the root of the problem is like probing a minefield blindfolded cause they don't really *know* a damned thing for sure - nobody does, and trying to do it without a proper diagnosis in the first place is like stickin your arm into a running garbage disposal.

Sorry, hot button topic for me, that one.


And imma get to the rest of this, my day off and I am lazin about, so I figure it's a useful thing to do.

-F

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 10:11 AM

BYTEMITE


Thanks for indulging my dark side. I think that *just* being content is not enough. Being content is too much like that zombie feeling I used to have on meds. It's empty. When I'm content, that makes me feel empty. If I have any kind of emotion, I'm going to try to grab on to it, and appreciate it, the good emotions AND the bad. I do tend to have mostly bad emotions that I register recently, this is most likely the stress. Anger and depression and anxiety, even feeling suicidal, are better than zombieness.

Anyway, I hijacked this thread well enough. Let's talk more about RAD now that I've gotten to the root of the snarly, I understand the beast now and I think I can leash it up.

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 10:44 AM

FREMDFIRMA



I'll respond to Niki's stuff first, cause there's so much more of it and I have to dig for the words to address yours Byte.
Quote:

if you've ever read "Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus", you'd get a wonderful insight into how our brains are wired differently.

Read it, don't agree with all of it, but it is cute and insightful - it's just way oversimplified so that folk without heavy background can understand it, concept with training wheels on it, kinda like.
Quote:

By the way, rarely are people "born" with disorders. We carry the GENETIC PROPENSITY...it takes something to cause the gene to manifest. And that something, far more often than not, is childhood abuse or trauma, be it psychological, physical, sexual or the sort of abandonment that causes RAD. We can also manifest by later trauma, PTSD, or head injury, but from what I've seen, upbringing is by far the biggest cause. Back to "it takes a village..."

Yep, takes one to wreck a kid too, all the folks who have to be complicit for it to happen - and as I pointed out in the school laptop spying thread, that kinda thing can carry through a community generationally because it's not like children that abused their peers stop when they reach adulthood, they just start gettin rewarded for it, and what do you think they teach THEIR kids - and the poor kids on the recieving end are even more at a disadvantage cause their own parents are emotionally diminished from that abuse and struggling with their own oft-unadmitted problems which all too often they take out of their own kid who then gets it from both directions.
There's some "communities" generations deep in that which I wouldn't mind seein bombed off the face of the earth, cause it's one thing to wind up takin crap from your peers and parents, mostly one doesn't have a choice...

But delivering it unto them ?
That *IS* a choice, never for a moment think it's not, you can CHOOSE to stay your hand - I never accepted my familys racism cause I thought the very idea was fuckin idiotic, still do, and it was MY choice to not be - no one can force you to knowingly dish out abuse, some folk might do it from ignorance or lack of empathy, but those who do it intentionally and on purpose ?

I've no mercy nor patience for them, or their excuses, none whatever.
Quote:

messing with people's minds and emotions is damned dangerous and just like religion, there's a component of power which can affect therapists unconsciously. Having that much trust put in a person's hands can make it far too easy to fall into a control position.

I mighta mentioned before, one of the ways I sideslip the defenses these folks have built up is by playing to the hero myth, the idealized concept of a "savior" who will "rescue" them, from the ritual gesture of the extended hand, right on down the line - and yet during the therapy it becomes clear to em in all the subtle ways I can throw it that I ain't so heroic, hard to explain how I encourage them to view me as a shyster who's pulled a fast one to help them, but a shyster all the same - if I can get em to NOT trust me, I call that a "win", cause it's that kinda unquestioning trust that got a lot of em hurt in the first place.
I also don't play that "better-than" bullshit most shrinks do, I got my flaws and happen to be pretty upfront about em, although imma have a word with someone about their television intake... captain caveman, hmmph!

-Frem

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 11:11 AM

FREMDFIRMA


And now, Byte's stuff.

Forgive me, kiddo, this part ain't easy for me, and yet, it is - hard to explain but I think you will understand, since we're both of the same extraordinarily rare mentality - just that one of us has more years of experience with it, is all.

What's setting you off is certainly a combination of effects, and you are correct from one angle...

First there's the lack of respect our society shows for who you are, your desire to be left alone, especially in your "me-time", which if aggressed upon is likely to provoke you something serious, and your personal space and sensory defensiveness about being touched.

And the invasive feeling when someone tries to make you feel better when you're having a sulk and don't WANT to feel better, or you're angry and have a REASON to be, fuck the happy smiley face, this is me, deal with it.

Hell, the words "anger management" will set a dark spark off, cause yanno, people don't get pissed at things without cause, and maybe addressing the problem that set you off instead of trying to "manage" an anger that is all too often justified - that's a pet peeve of mine when I watch my niece receive drastically unfair treatment from her mother, and then get mad about it, only to have her mother yell those words at her...

And so I took her by the hand and drove her over to Friendlys and bought her a sundae, and if her mother had a damned thing to say about it, she kept it to herself.

And yes, the automatic assumption that you must have had a horrible childhood, when you know that is not the case - which is what, more than anything else, convinces me you're a Dark Spark.

My early childhood was pretty ugly, but never from my mother or within my household, all of the ugliness was external, and that is a different thing, so yes I know how grating, and insulting, that assumption is - and why I would never make it at you.

But the rage, the snarly as you call it, that comes from a different source, and I think you know it, but maybe just didn't wanna say it out loud cause you either don't have the words, or it might sound ridiculous...

So I will say it.

What lit the fuse, and so badly, during this discussion, is the very thing that lights mine, and while it is rooted in compassion, it's not a very NICE form of compassion because it manifests as pure rage at at world and society which can do these things.

It's Himeis rage, Sailor Nothings rage.
"THIS SHOULD NOT BE HAPPENING, THIS SHOULD NOT EXIST!"
And followed up by a frustrating compulsion to DO SOMETHING about it, RIGHT NOW, in the most brutal and violent method possible, to crush the someone or something behind it, causing it, responsible for it, to rend it utterly, blatantly, publicly, and hang it's head on a spike as a bloody unignorable example of the price that *should* be extracted for such conduct.

Only, it's not that simple an issue, there isn't one head you can lop off, one building to raze, or one throat to wrap your hands around - and your desire be 'civilized' and the complexity of the issue lacking those things slams head on into your rageful compulsion with a loud bang and accompaniment of mental static and you just grind your teeth and growl in frustrated rage.

Because how dare they, what gives them the right, or even any reason to destroy the one pure thing in this world, the one thing that matters most, and in doing so imperil the future of not only all of us, but mankind itself, can't they SEE what they are doing, don't they care - and if they don't I wanna make em care, slam their face into the ugly results of their doing and grind it all the way into their brain, over and over so they never EVER forget...

Oh yes, I know that rage, if you ask the right people they'll say it's the only true love I've ever known, it's what I tap into that powers the berserkerang, the indomitable will, refusal to bend and break when by all rights I should be dead - but for all it's power I never, ever let it get loose, because you do that, what makes you different from them ?

And so you channel it, into words, into voice, into thought and action, use it, pound and form it like steel, until it's a WEAPON, but always remember that is what it is, and such a thing is only as decent as the one who wields it and their own personal choices.

That help any ?

-Frem

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 11:14 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Read it, don't agree with all of it, but it is cute and insightful - it's just way oversimplified so that folk without heavy background can understand it, concept with training wheels on it, kinda like.


Seconded. There probably are differences (ouch it stings to say that), but I really don't think it can be put into terms of white matter vs. grey matter, what men can do better and women can't. Or any other way that people simplify this, I hear a LOT of differing explanations, and I don't give much credence to any of them in particular. All together they might mean something, but the picture does not seem well defined.

Other parts, thinking. To be honest, the more you talk about it, I do think I have something like what you have, but I'm not so sure it runs quite as deep. Maybe I just haven't been triggered as much as you, really. That might be what it is.

I've clamped down on the little flare ups I'm still getting from rereading by analyzing my reaction. My anger here was mostly defensive, drawing upon what I experienced in my past, wanting to defend kids maybe like me from being messed with. Bad medicine/diagnoses in particular, but oddly also from what I kinda see as "easy solutions" that make people feel better, but may not solve the problem. Or ideas which may not respect who they just naturally are. I have issues with a number of mental and personality disorder diagnoses.

RAD seems to be a legitimate one, though, now that I understand it better and it's not what I thought it was.

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 12:07 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Other parts, thinking. To be honest, the more you talk about it, I do think I have something like what you have, but I'm not so sure it runs quite as deep. Maybe I just haven't been triggered as much as you, really. That might be what it is.


In part, there's also that you're prolly less violent without the sadistic bent - see, one of the reasons that my own people call me barbaric is cause I do have a sadistic bent, which I hold a grip of steel on to keep it from getting out of hand - but when the situation calls for it, like a trio of camp stooges deciding to make a problem of our legally authorized, court-ordered removal of one of their victims, for example...

I not only cut it loose, I REVEL in it, a rabid explosion of violence and pent up rage and frustration so intense that the few times it's gone that way were sufficient fodder for the rumor mill to come up with all sorts of scary stories - but also like I said, the use of violence does psychic harm to the wielder as well as the target, so I have a warped kind of taste for it, like that little twinge a longterm alcoholic who has kicked the habit has whenever he stares at the bottle, the siren song of temptation, don't you know...

And I *know* this, which is why I try to set up the situation so it doesn't come to that, and since I absolutely won't do that kinda thing in front of someone who would be traumatized by it, I generally have one of my allies with me as both helper and "holder of the leash".

But yeah, it's far more intense with me because I've fed that monster, and when you feed it, it gets bigger, meaner, nastier.

-Frem

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 12:20 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I not only cut it loose, I REVEL in it, a rabid explosion of violence and pent up rage and frustration so intense that the few times it's gone that way were sufficient fodder for the rumor mill to come up with all sorts of scary stories - but also like I said, the use of violence does psychic harm to the wielder as well as the target, so I have a warped kind of taste for it, like that little twinge a longterm alcoholic who has kicked the habit has whenever he stares at the bottle, the siren song of temptation, don't you know...

OK, this is ironic. And maybe my present situation doesn't fit this thread, but it's somehow close, so I'll go with it.

I just completely blew up at a stranger. Called him an asshole and other assorted terms. I don't think I've ever done something like that before. (In real life. ) It was over a stupid parking situation. A neighbor has asserted his rights in a way that makes thing dangerous and damned inconvenient, for no other reason than to piss on his territory. It's ridiculous.

So I was sitting here trying to be less mad and it occurred to me that for most of my life I would have meekly complied with his order not to turn around in his space, and I'd have been left feeling all powerless and wimpy. I also would have had suppressed anger eating at me for days. OK, not that this is hugely better, because I'm still mad and I feel rather silly. I didn't accomplish a thing by yelling at him. Could have handled it better.

But, I must admit, it was nice to feel mad and just go ahead and BE mad. I think I've always been too afraid to let myself do that. Dunno. I don't think I could be a junky for it like you're saying though, Frem. Too scary. I don't know if the guy's going to key my car or go after my cats or something.

Niki, Bytemite, you seem similar types of people with similar histories of being... um... emotionally frozen, maybe? (I apply the term to me, please don't be offended if it doesn't fit you) so I thought you'd relate. Or at least wouldn't mind me venting.

Lord what a mess. And so unnecessary.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 12:24 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

My early childhood was pretty ugly, but never from my mother or within my household, all of the ugliness was external, and that is a different thing...


This is... similar. I'm not sure how much I can say about my parents, sometimes they set me off too, sometimes I think they were only trying their best in an impossible situation, or maybe there was a rejection feedback loop that just escalated. It's hard to tell when and how much is just my own interpretation. But the environment was safe. If I was left alone. Interactions with them generally weren't and aren't positive, but they were thankfully very limited. I did a lot of book reading.

>_> I'm a little sadistic. ._. If the threat reaction fantasies are anything to judge by. In an actual fight I'm usually deadly serious, it doesn't tend to come out there, but again, based on the above, it could. I get it sometimes in an argument too. Sometimes you just enjoy a good fight, the hunt, going for the jugular.

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 12:36 PM

BYTEMITE


It does feel good, doesn't it? Freeing. It's the dark side everyone has, beast or demon within. Mine needed feeding today, looks like.

It's not that people are bad. But put them in close proximity, and they will eventually argue over something. Tension and frustration towards other people happens, and doesn't diminish our capacity for compassion.

Except apparently certain American mothers and their adopted Russian children they don't want to make the effort to understand.

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 1:06 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Good on YOU, Mal4! It's great to get in touch with your emotions--even if it doesn't work out so well, sometimes it's healthy just to give vent to them and feel empowered, as Frem says.

Frem, I agree with everything you quoted from the other thread. As you can see, my feelings are much the same about p-docs and therapists. I especially liked
Quote:

But what it comes down to, with this, all of this, is that people are PEOPLE, human beings, each and every one as individual and unique as a snowflake, and every diagnosis and treatment MUST reflect that, or you're just wasting your time, potentially harming your patient and indulging in what I feel to be gross criminal negligence in your responsibility to them.
Damned straight! That's why so many people get misdiagnosed, and treatment ends up being "do this and this and this", some or all of which may not be relevant to what THEY are dealing with. There's still so much wrong with psychiatry...but don't get me started!

Byte, I don't see "contentment" the way you do. I have feelings, lots of them (!), good and bad; things pleasure me, things make me hurt...more than "regular people" as it comes with the disorder. But I don't live in the negative emotions, I take them and I take the bad. The idea that nothing but negative emotions is better than being content seems strange to me, but that's probably because we view contentment differently. Good old semantics...English is TOUGH!

Frem, of course it's over-simplified, it has to be or people wouldn't read it...title, too, has to grab. I agree with a lot of it, disagree with some, but the difference between women talking to process and men feeling the need to "fix" and being frustrated when they can, that's awfully common. That's the only thing I was talking about.

And yup, your entire paragraph on generational abuse...isn't it horrific? I get pissed off mightily at abuse, but even more pissed off that what results from abuse can all too easily run the victim's life, never let them be who they ARE, and then be carried on to the next generation. It truly sickens me.

...and the "better than" attitude of p-docs ...well, I did promise not to get into psychiatry...

Oh gawd...
Quote:

And the invasive feeling when someone tries to make you feel better when you're having a sulk and don't WANT to feel better, or you're angry and have a REASON to be, fuck the happy smiley face, this is me, deal with it.
That one is SO detremental...the instinct for people to say "cheer up", or "why are you always so down?" or "make the effort"...it's one of the worst things for those of us with a disorder. Can make you mad, but also can make an awful lot of us (who already feel "different") just feel worse, because even when we WANT to, sometimes it just has to be ridden out, we don't have the option of cheering up...and when I'm "in the chasm" as I call it, that's the last shit I ever want to hear...just leave me alone, it will pass, it's just "comin' around on the gittar"...but tney can't understand unless they've been there.

Just to be clear if you were talking about us, Jim didn't have valid reasons for his anger. That's where anger management comes in; he would get pissed about some tiny thing and carry it on for as long as a week, treating everyone around him like shit. Never violent, in fact mostly closing himself in his room and drinking, but gawd forbid you had to deal with him for some reason! If someone at the pizza parlor had done something to piss him off, everyone in our home paid for it! He's learned to let stuff go now--he gets mad, sure, and sometimes over things that there's no obvious reason to get mad about, but he flies off the handle then relaxes, gets perspective and moves on. It's so wonderful to see!

And for further clarification, I didn't ASSUME Byte had a bad childhood, disorder or anything else. I want to help, and sometimes just speaking up can help. Believe me, I've been around, a lot, and I've seen miracles happen which I never would have believed before. Byte can certainly take or leave what I thought I saw, and certainly I can be way off the mark, but there is no assumption...there is, if anything, a guessing based on reading what she wrote, and a desire to help if possible.

I was certainly not saying we should be happy all the time, and that if she's not, something's wrong that needs to be fixed. As I said, if her lifestyle feels right, nothing on earth needs to be done.

This confuses me:
Quote:

What lit the fuse, and so badly, during this discussion, is the very thing that lights mine, and while it is rooted in compassion, it's not a very NICE form of compassion because it manifests as pure rage at at world and society which can do these things.
It sounds like you're saying Byte had feelings because of the discussion of RAD, and that attempts to be compassionate and help manifest in rage. Could you clarify that?

I hope I didn't step on any toes. I only know what I've seen, heard and read, and I DEFINITELY think each person is different and should be recognized for such.

I certainly agree, Byte, that
Quote:

what I kinda see as "easy solutions" that make people feel better, but may not solve the problem. Or ideas which may not respect who they just naturally are. I have issues with a number of mental and personality disorder diagnoses.
Anything that doesn't get to the root of the problem and FREE someone from not being who they are is bad; I would add that in some cases, getting help DOES free the person, as well. It sure did me. I was a bitch, literally, and pretty much hated myself and everyone else. I was a controller--still am to an extent. Mostly I thought I was "bad" and it was just naturally "so". It was like swimming against a strong current, all the time.

When we got my cocktail right (which takes time and patience!), it was like I was sculling in quiet water, with little current, and when I got through with a long time of trying different therapists and therapies, it was like I was swimming WITH the current, I could be ME.

It only means something if there are things one wants to change, otherwise, nobody on earth should be trying to make them change to fit their own concept of what's "right". I guarantee Jim is much happier now than the way he was, and his granddaughter wants to be free to explore her world and sing and dance, and now she can. There are no easy answers, and in my opinion meds or therapy are just the start, if anything; it's up to us to make the life we want.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 1:15 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Interactions with them generally weren't and aren't positive, but they were thankfully very limited. I did a lot of book reading.

Wow, Byte, those words could have come out of my mouth! I was an avid reader, kept to my room most of the time. I spent one entire summer vacation on the couch or in my room, reading all "The Saint" series of books. In my case, my mother VIOLENTLY hated my father, blamed him for everything wrong in the world; my father was a total recluse, stayed in his room and rarely, if ever, spoke. I mean if EVER. But boy, could his eyes tear you to pieces.

I actually built myself a room in the attic, only accessible by ladder, to get away. I was given everything I could need in material objects, but there was a "price" for everything, emotional or material, and that's part of what fucked me up.

Once I got out (at 17), going back home for the required visits was something I loathed. I used anger to keep myself safe; if mom said "white", I said "black", and unfortunately that anger carried over toward the whole world. Luckily once I became self-aware, I was able to take care of myself without always being angry; once I could see what she'd done and could look into HER past, I could see enough of where it came from to not hate her anymore. Given my mom had me at 42, they were more like grandparents and died long, long ago. I don't miss them.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 2:53 PM

HKCAVALIER


Tennessee Mother Ships abducted who???

Sorry, that's what it looks like every time I see the subject line.

Carry on.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 2:58 PM

MAL4PREZ


I was typing a reply when I spilled martini all over my keyboard. Yep, my angry neighbor encounter called for a martini. Of which I enjoyed about half. On the good side, the keyboard was due a good cleaning. Who knew so much cat hair could hide in there?

Been doing a lot of dead skin removal while waiting for the keyboard to dry. I got the cast off my foot tonight, and for the first time in 6+ weeks I have access to my own toes. Woo-hoo!

Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I actually built myself a room in the attic, only accessible by ladder, to get away. I was given everything I could need in material objects, but there was a "price" for everything, emotional or material, and that's part of what fucked me up.

Ain't that the truth? I totally relate to your tale, Niki. My parents went through things I can't even imagine, and I must admire what they did for me. Still, they weren't capable of giving me a lot of other things I'd have liked. Things it seems that most other kids get. You know. Attention. Affection.

Which makes me think of "As Good as it Gets" the movie. As Jack Nicholson said: We're only really pissed off when we think about the things we *should* have had, that someone else got and we didn't. That's so true. I'm all right with my childhood until I think: But everyone else had it like this...

It's like me being all pissy and self-pitying about having to get around with crutches. Then I recall that many people don't have 6 weeks of this. They can't walk their whole lives. Then I'm less bothered.

Anyway, I'm really not on topic. I had comments about the return-a-Russian-kid Mom that got washed out with the keyboard. I guess the thing that perplexes me was that this woman felt so helpless with a child that her only solution was to put him on a plane. Really? That was the only option she thought she had?

Makes me ask what it is about kids that makes grownups feel so powerless. It's related to how kids are stripped of power, treated as pets as Frem often says. Adults - some adults - feel completely helpless around them.

Which should be completely ridiculous. But maybe not. Kids have keen eyes, and see our flaws. Like me seeing my parents' weaknesses...

Scary parallels there.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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