REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

in the spirt of the 4th: Liberty for DUMMIES

POSTED BY: ANTIMASON
UPDATED: Monday, July 12, 2010 14:30
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 3636
PAGE 2 of 2

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 4:59 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

My point is regardless of the cost of education, If you decide to go to college YOU should pay the cost agreed. Why on earth should the kid not going to college subsidize the loans(Gov. pays interest while in school or grace period)to the kid in school? It is theft plain and simple. Gov. taking the wages of one kid and giving to another.....Unconstitutional in my book. It's the same principle I would use against most Gov. Programs....Tax me for defense. Hell even tax me for Social security(hate it, but it is what it is), however don't tax me just to give someone else a break. CHOOSE to go to school...pay your tab. Simple.


What about the revenue we get from taxing corporations, can we use that to subsidise higher education? After all businesses benefit from a society (and labour pool) where higher education is within reach of every smart individual.

Heads should roll



Yes. Corporations were meant to be taxed. That's what the supreme court decided. Income was defined as a corporations profits. A man's wage was defined as an even exchange of one mans work and the agreed upon payment. However they should be taxed only in the state they reside.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 5:09 AM

DREAMTROVE


HK

It's because in the hopelessly corrupt free market, I can go out and wing it, and then people can decide for themselves whether they like what I do. Likewise, they can provide services to me, and I can decide whether or not I want them.

In a public economy, I grovel at the feet of the elite plea for mercy to let me do my own thing. Then they deliver "services" to me by force, and
Of course, if the public system had its way I would have been lobotomized, if I hadn't sued their asses for my own release from their "healthcare."

Some choice huh?

I'm sorry, I would like the option to reject "services" and I would like to be able to provide my own services without any annointed institute of approval. Yah, I'd rather take my chances in bartertown.

Right now I'm dealing with the App store which is run very much that way. It's not very free market.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 5:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

There were fewer poor people during W's 8 years, as more people moved up the social ladder.

The Rich got richer because that's what they do. Make smart choices, continue to work hard, it pays off.

Those who make poor choices, spend their $$ unwisely, continue down the same path....

That statement is a lie or ignorance. I don't know whether you just make flat-out statements you've herad elsewhere or make them to get a rise, but it's 100% wrong.

The STANDARD OF LIVING (remember that?) went down during Dumbya's time in office. Because of deregulation, tax cuts for the rich and outsourcing, the standard of living went down. It has little or nothing to do with "poor choices", jobs disappeared which will never reappear, and wages fell behind the cost of living (remember that one?), ergo the gap we've been talking about.

Corporations paid less taxes while people earned less. I posted where Jimmy Buffet did an experiment and discovered his workers paid MORE TAXES than he did, although they earned far less. Families who had homes and lives were made poorer; there are more homeless FAMILIES now than there were since the Great Depression. Dumbya worked for the rich; the rest of us suffered.

Until corporations pay their fair share of taxes, it will worsen. Until some kind of industry is either brought back to the country or created, there will be fewer jobs. More people will suffer.

If you cared to educate yourself you'd realize what a lie the statement is.

for your ignorance, deliberate or not.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 5:54 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


Right now I'm dealing with the App store which is run very much that way. It's not very free market.



And yet, you ARE free to not deal with them, yes?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 5:55 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Niki, I think you meant WARREN Buffet. Not Jimmy. :)

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 6:05 AM

BYTEMITE


And against all evidence otherwise, I'm kinda hoping you meant this one:


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 6:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yep, sorry, Warren Buffet...I just got up. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Would be nice to think an uninhibited free market worked. It doesn't. Cav is right in that
Quote:

corporations set prices and people have no recourse but to pay up
The argument that "if I price something less than my competitor, people will buy from me" is a fallacy. People need and want things, corporations know this. Ergo, they will never price things lower than they can get away with; people need food; they will pay what they have to in order to get it.

Companies will always make as much profits as they can. Whether they have to cut safety, workers' wages, lobby for subsidies or deregulation, and cut corners wherever possible to enhance profits. That's the way it has always been and always will be, if there is no check on their abilities to do these things.
Quote:

Corporations sell produces that include all of their operating costs in the price.
You left out that they get tax breaks everywhere along the way, and pay high salaries to their upper eschelon workers. The pass on the price of things because they CAN; if there weren’t so many loopholes and ways for them to increase their profits which aren’t available to others, taxes would be more equitable. Even doing away with taxes, corporations and the rich are able to put their profits into investments which increase those profits, which also others cannot. An uninhibited free market does not work.

It blows my mind that this utopia of the free market continues to be worshipped, when everything about it has been proven to be untrue again and again. The government is held up to blame for every failing in the free market and the mentality will never change among some that if there were no government, nobody to protect our interests (however poorly they do it sometimes), everything would be rosy. BP is a prime example; because of deregulation and the lax attitude toward oil companies for eight years, weakening of any oversight by the government entity in charge of oversight, they went further and further, lied to avoid what regulation there WAS, and as a result have created a disaster of epic proportion. They WERE pretty much left to their own “conscience” as to how to operate; they are a prime example of the results. 99% of corporations would do the same, unhindered. But that will always be ignored or rationalized by those who believe in unbridled free market.

It's weird; even with a prime example right in front of us, the mentality continues.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 7:02 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Jimmy Buffet did an experiment and discovered his workers paid MORE TAXES than he did, although they earned far less.


That's classic

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 8:13 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:

Jimmy Buffet did an experiment and discovered his workers paid MORE TAXES than he did, although they earned far less.


That's classic




Oh, I don't doubt for a second that Jimmy Buffet has done his fair share of experimentation! After all, he's a pirate, a smuggler, a pilot, a writer, a singer, songwriter, criminal, stoner, a drunk - and those are just the offenses he ADMITS to! :)

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 9:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Like I said, my mistake; it was WARREN Buffet, and I posted it here complete with cites some time back.

Jimmy Buffet, on the other hand, had his concert down there cancelled because of the impending hurricane; he knew people were already planning to come, so he went down and held a FREE concert anyway.

I'd like to take bets as to what Jimmy would say if you asked him about the stuff in this thread. Don't think he'd be in favor of unrestricted free market either...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 10:28 AM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
I wish someone would explain to me exactly how corporations pay taxes. Corporations sell produces that include all of their operating costs in the price. You buy the product, you pay the tax. If you only tax certain corporations like with sin taxes then you are just passing the tax burden to a smaller group of people. Those groups most effected by sin taxes are usually those in society least able to handle the burden. A broad based consumption tax is the only fair way of realistically collecting the revenue needed to get us out of the hole we've dug ourselves.

This argument has always struck me as the very height of irony. Here y'all are defending the "free market" and then you straight up admit that there's nothing free about, that corporations set prices and people have no recourse but to pay up. You admit that there is no curb whatsoever, no "self correcting invisible hand" to keep corporations functioning within their means. No, they will always screw over the little guy no matter what we do and the little guy will have no recourse, so we better just keep paying tribute to our corporate rulers. It's hilarious that you guys don't catch yourselves when you give the game away like that.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.


So you essentially agree that corporations pass tax on to their customers, but the illusion that you are sticking it to the big bad corporations is more important to you than a tax system based in reality. Why you would deny a corporation or any non-monopoly the right to charge what they please for their product is beyond my understanding. Maximising profit is what drives innovation and productivity and makes products affordable for the masses. At exactly what point does a company like Apple go from the underdog fighting the big evil Microsoft with government assistance to the point where they become the evil corporation you disdain. I suppose you want the government to go after Apple now and stifle innovation so the next has been company can get a leg up.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 11:01 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
So you essentially agree that corporations pass tax on to their customers, but the illusion that you are sticking it to the big bad corporations is more important to you than a tax system based in reality. Why you would deny a corporation or any non-monopoly the right to charge what they please for their product is beyond my understanding. Maximising profit is what drives innovation and productivity and makes products affordable for the masses. At exactly what point does a company like Apple go from the underdog fighting the big evil Microsoft with government assistance to the point where they become the evil corporation you disdain. I suppose you want the government to go after Apple now and stifle innovation so the next has been company can get a leg up.

Jesus tapdancing Christo, Kirk--I'm not sayin' any of that. Only that your beloved "free market" ain't. It's just plutocracy. And I'll grant ye, plutocracy is a step up from aristocracy, so the human race is progressin', but not by much.

Now, I s'pose you'll come at me with, "Wull, d'you got a better idea?" because the truth about your own illusory "free" market is too painful to bear. Let's just sit with the lie that is your "free market" for a while until it sinks in, k? Then we might have a fruitful conversation about alternatives.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 11:54 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

I wish someone would explain to me exactly how corporations pay taxes. Corporations sell produces that include all of their operating costs in the price. You buy the product, you pay the tax.


Good point, I had to look into it but found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_incidence

It's a field within economics that studies where the tax burden of a particular tax eventually falls. From the article:

"Imagine a $1 tax on every barrel of apples an apple farmer produces. If the product (apples) is price inelastic to the consumer (where if price rose, a small demand loss will be accounted for by the extra revenue), the farmer is able to pass the entire tax on to consumers of apples by raising the price by $1: consumers are bearing the entire burden of the tax; the tax incidence is falling on consumers. On the other hand, if the apple farmer can't raise prices, because the product is price elastic (if prices rise, more demand will be lost than the extra revenue made) the farmer will have to bear the burden of the tax or face decreased revenues: the tax incidence is falling on the farmer. If the apple farmer can raise prices only $0.50, then they are sharing the tax burden. When the tax incidence falls on the farmer, this burden will flow back to owners of the relevant factors of production, including agricultural land and employee wages."

I think the key is that sometimes the seller cannot inflate the price to recoup the profit because it will dent sales (sorry HK). So this works out as a tax on shareholders/capitalists, not on consumers. Another quote:

"Most markets fall between these two extremes, and ultimately the incidence of tax is shared between producers and consumers in varying proportions."

Interesting stuff, I wish we had an economist on the forum (a real one, not an ideological one).

Heads should roll

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 12:42 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Quote:

There were fewer poor people during W's 8 years, as more people moved up the social ladder.

The Rich got richer because that's what they do. Make smart choices, continue to work hard, it pays off.

Those who make poor choices, spend their $$ unwisely, continue down the same path....

That statement is a lie or ignorance. I don't know whether you just make flat-out statements you've herad elsewhere or make them to get a rise, but it's 100% wrong.

The STANDARD OF LIVING (remember that?) went down during Dumbya's time in office. Because of deregulation, tax cuts for the rich and outsourcing, the standard of living went down. It has little or nothing to do with "poor choices", jobs disappeared which will never reappear, and wages fell behind the cost of living (remember that one?), ergo the gap we've been talking about.

Corporations paid less taxes while people earned less. I posted where Jimmy Buffet did an experiment and discovered his workers paid MORE TAXES than he did, although they earned far less. Families who had homes and lives were made poorer; there are more homeless FAMILIES now than there were since the Great Depression. Dumbya worked for the rich; the rest of us suffered.

Until corporations pay their fair share of taxes, it will worsen. Until some kind of industry is either brought back to the country or created, there will be fewer jobs. More people will suffer.

If you cared to educate yourself you'd realize what a lie the statement is.




Nikita, you ignorant slut.


"Jimmy Buffett" ??? ROFLOL!!

Nothing I said was a lie, ignorant or false. Under 8 years of Bush, there was steady, if slow, growth in the economy and low unemployment. Far better than was found elsewhere during that time, so take that into consideration.

Compare 5% unemployment to 9.5 unemployment

5 is less, thank you W!

" Corporations " don't pay taxes, silly. WE DO! You think the corporations don't just jack up their prices to off set what operating cost they have when the Gubment comes a callin'? You're nuts! The more you stick it to corporations and force them to pay " their fair share " ( what a load of go se! ) the higher the costs to the customer, the less $$ investors and stock holders get, and the less profitable the corporation making it a negative impact on anyone who may have invested for retirement purposes , for example.

Oil companies make less off a the sale of oil than do the Governments, which simply taxes the living hell out of the product, receiving a massive windfall of profit for zero investment. Great scam, if you can run it. And every Gov't does run that scam.

You want to bring jobs back to this country ? Lower the taxes, don't raise them.




NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 12:59 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Lowering taxes DIDN'T bring jobs back. Job growth under 8 years of Bush and his "low taxes"? 1 million jobs, total. Under 8 years of "tax-n-spend" Clinton? 23 million. Under that horrible Carter, in just 4 years? 5 million.

Obama lowered taxes. Where are all those jobs? He just disproved your little theory.

Also, since 1920, Democrats have held the presidency for 42 years, while Republicans have had it for 48 of those years. Yet in that time, the Democrats have created 65% of the jobs. Now, if they're the party that's always raising taxes, then isn't that proof positive that RAISING taxes creates jobs?

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 1:03 PM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Lowering taxes DIDN'T bring jobs back. Job growth under 8 years of Bush and his "low taxes"? 1 million jobs, total. Under 8 years of "tax-n-spend" Clinton? 23 million. Under that horrible Carter, in just 4 years? 5 million.

Obama lowered taxes. Where are all those jobs? He just disproved your little theory.

Also, since 1920, Democrats have held the presidency for 42 years, while Republicans have had it for 48 of those years. Yet in that time, the Democrats have created 65% of the jobs. Now, if they're the party that's always raising taxes, then isn't that proof positive that RAISING taxes creates jobs?

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.





Must I say it?...... All the jobs they created were in the public sector...."butt" you know that already.....And

*drum roll*

You are gay....still

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 1:18 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
I think the key is that sometimes the seller cannot inflate the price to recoup the profit because it will dent sales (sorry HK). So this works out as a tax on shareholders/capitalists, not on consumers. Another quote:

"Most markets fall between these two extremes, and ultimately the incidence of tax is shared between producers and consumers in varying proportions."

Interesting stuff, I wish we had an economist on the forum (a real one, not an ideological one).

Heads should roll

It's getting less and less possible for me to post on this board without being misunderstood and mischaracterized.

Why are you apologizing to me, however ironically? Look: I was critiquing Kirkules' characterization of what he called a "free market" when at the same time he states as fact that corporations can simply raise prices as high as they wish to deal with increased costs. That's not a free market, is it? I was critiquing his position. Critiquing his system as having a strangle-hold on consumers. That is all. Then he comes back blathering about how I must be a socialist because I think he lives in a fairytale.

Now you take what I've said as some kind of denial that supply and demand ever determine anything. WTF? As I say, it's becoming impossible to have a conversation around here.

Until people like Kirkules stop pretending the status quo is some species of "free market," as long as men like him defend the corporatist system, there is not going to be a free market, okay? Is that plain enough for you? Sure, some things are a matter of competition, like entertainment, but the really big things like oil are simply not subject to market forces until they jack the prices by several 100%. But at that point you can hardly call that market forces, that's a parasite killing its host!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 1:25 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


5% is lower than 10 %

Income taxes aren't the same as Corporate taxes.

Will SOMEBODY educate these morons ?




NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 1:27 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


*ALL* the jobs? Really? 23 million jobs created in the public sector under Clinton, huh (and all while slashing the military, remember!)? And somehow, while DRASTICALLY increasing both the size and the cost of government, Dubya managed to only create a million jobs in eight years?

Sounds like y'all just really really suck at getting anything for your money!

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 1:33 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


Oil companies make less off a the sale of oil than do the Governments, which simply taxes the living hell out of the product, receiving a massive windfall of profit for zero investment. Great scam, if you can run it. And every Gov't does run that scam.



And yet somehow, oil companies still manage to sell their product, despite it having "the living hell" taxed out of it. Jeez, you'd think they'd be run out of business with all those taxes on their backs. Or at the very least, we poor consumers wouldn't be able to afford their product, what with all those evil taxes being just tacked onto the price and passed onto us.

Yet still we manage to keep driving 12mpg SUVs. Guess that evil ol' Tax Man hasn't quite broken us yet! And all those evil evil taxes the gubmint is stealing from the oil companies hasn't seemed to have cut into their profits, has it? Of course, they don't pay any corporate income taxes at all, and they STILL get billions in corporate welfare every year from that same big gubmint that's robbing them into bankruptcy...

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 1:34 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:

It's getting less and less possible for me to post on this board without being misunderstood and mischaracterized.




Tell me about it. ;)

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 1:39 PM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
*ALL* the jobs? Really? 23 million jobs created in the public sector under Clinton, huh (and all while slashing the military, remember!)? And somehow, while DRASTICALLY increasing both the size and the cost of government, Dubya managed to only create a million jobs in eight years?

Sounds like y'all just really really suck at getting anything for your money!

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.





No gay-boy. "Butt" when you say 65% of all jobs were created under dems. You are being facetious at best. When you add up the census workers, all FDR's crap, and all the bureaucrats they higher for their massive social programs. That number looks a bit different. "Butt" you already know this....like Yoda once said...."Just being a bitch you are"......And,

*drum roll*

You are gay....still


--------------------------------------------------




”Niki--condescending arrogant fat old bi-polar hag....You are an asshole...one does not need a sockpuppet to tell you to fuck off" ...sayeth Kane

Kwicko wrote, "I've got a soft spot for animals"
I'm guessing he's talking about his anus......Well, it's true........


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 2:23 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
It's getting less and less possible for me to post on this board without being misunderstood and mischaracterized.


It ever was ?

Hell, you just SAY the "A-word" around here and folk break out the flamethrowers.

Anyhow, as I been tellin ya, there's a reason I refer to Capitalism as a religious belief rather than a political one, and discussin it, or trying to, with it's proponents will handily illustrate that this is exactly what it is cause it depends on Faith rather than Evidence, often in direct opposition to the Evidence, ergo, it is a religious, not political, belief, neh ?

On a related note, I mentioned this before but wanted to bring it to your attention specifically.

The similarity between Mondragons operational model and Subury's educational one, and how this seems to be a hopeful future for human interaction if properly nutured.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school

I think the concept here has much potential.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 2:32 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:

Why are you apologizing to me, however ironically? Look: I was critiquing Kirkules' characterization of what he called a "free market" when at the same time he states as fact that corporations can simply raise prices as high as they wish to deal with increased costs. That's not a free market, is it? .


Talk about a mischaracterization, I never once mentioned the "Free Market", that's just your projection. I just pointed out that corporate taxes are a fiction and you made it about your hatred of corporations and delusions of superior knowledge. Corporations are not always able to pass all of their costs to the consumer and I never said they could. Taxes on the other hand are passed on because they effect all companies regardless of competitive advantage. If a company develops a superior widget a company with a inferior widget can't raise their prices and still compete, but at a lower price their product though inferior might still be attractive to a segment of widget consumers. If they try to demand the same price as the superior product they will soon be out of business. Taxes are the same as the raw materials used to make the widget, they don't vary from company to company in the same market and therefore are built into the cost for all companies. In the example that KPO gives any company that is incapable of passing on basic operating costs would be out of business. All companies must be able to pass on basic costs just to break even, a company with a competitive advantage can pass on costs plus whatever the market will bear. The only reason inferior companies exist in a "free market" is because of the of the benefits of the economics of scale and government intervention.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 3:19 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by Kirkules:
...you made it about your hatred of corporations...

Nope. Sorry. I don't hate corporations. It's pointless.

Carry on.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 3:25 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
It's pointless.



It's always nice to end on a point of agreement.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 4:09 PM

HKCAVALIER


I meant to add: I'm sorry I misunderstood you, Kirkules.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, July 7, 2010 4:34 PM

DREAMTROVE


Frem is correct, Capitalism is a religion, as is Socialism.

There is a lot of economics that is not religious, but the most religious of all is a belief in gold. It has no economic basis in fact. I suspect this is only used as a mechanism to lure sheep into poverty away from the real economy


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, July 8, 2010 12:01 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Frem is correct, Capitalism is a religion, as is Socialism.

There is a lot of economics that is not religious, but the most religious of all is a belief in gold. It has no economic basis in fact. I suspect this is only used as a mechanism to lure sheep into poverty away from the real economy




When ever there's any doubt, I'll default on the side of freedom.

There is no freedom in Socialism. None. Ever.






NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, July 9, 2010 10:18 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

There is no freedom in Socialism. None. Ever.
Not for you, in any case.

If I could, I'd throw all the big bankers, the heads of BP, and most of the big corporations into the Gulf and have my OWN kind of tea party.

And you too, Rappy, just because.

Yippeee!!!!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 10, 2010 2:39 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



NO freedom in socialism for anyone.

Who does socialism free, Sig. Who ?




NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 10, 2010 4:45 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Frem is correct, Capitalism is a religion, as is Socialism.

There is a lot of economics that is not religious, but the most religious of all is a belief in gold. It has no economic basis in fact. I suspect this is only used as a mechanism to lure sheep into poverty away from the real economy



Now, see, I've argued this same point with people.

Say everyone is thrown back into poverty, and the crumbling of the economic system has rendered a lot of today's metal working tech out of the reach of average people. People can still probably find ways to melt their gold down, gold doesn't have a high melting temperature, and there are low tech ways to mold metals into say bullets and round shot and stuff.

But gold makes very poor weapons and bullets, it's too soft. So if you can't make something useful out of it, and you can't eat it, what good is it for the poor subsistence community? Gold only exists as a representation of the barter system, giving gold to defer services and trade of goods like food, clothing, and cheap containers like pottery. Gold could be easily excised and the system left intact.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 10, 2010 6:58 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, Cav, DON'T leave, please don't leave. Seems like lately we've got far too many of the rabid types, we need every civil voice we can get!!! You are MUCH appreciated, believe me...I tend not to read theirs, but I always read yours!

As to 5% unemployment, again, Dumbya came into a pretty stable economy, relatively speaking, whereas Obama came into an economy whose unemployment numbers skyrocketed when he first took office...he had no control over that then. He's brought it down and is working at bringing it down further; I'll judge him when his time is up. As opposed to those of you who are desperate to defend his abysmal record after EIGHT YEARS in office!

One of Wulf's favorite fictional heroes couldn't repair what's been done to this country in two years; four would even be a miracle. It took eight for Dumbya to fuck it up so badly, don't blame Obama if he can't fix it with a snap of his fingers.

August 2001:
Quote:

The U.S. unemployment rate jumped to its highest point in four years in August, the government said Friday, as employers cut far more jobs than private economists had expected, pointing to more weakness in the world's largest economy.
Dumbya'd been in office seven months; how'd that happen?

By October:
Quote:

The U.S. unemployment rate rose sharply in October, the government said Friday, as employers cut hundreds of thousands of jobs - the most in 21 years - in response to a sharp slowdown in the world's largest economy.
By now he'd had NINE months...why wasn't it still going up?

June 6, 2003:
Quote:

U.S. unemployment rose in May and businesses cut thousands of jobs, the government said Friday.
Omigawd, he's had TWO AND A HALF YEARS...why hadn't he turned it around yet??

Unemployment climbed STEADILY throughout the Dumbya Administration. October 2009 it hit 10% and it's been going down ever since. NOT fast enough, but considering Dumbya left it at the HIGHEST RATE SINCE 972, I'll give Obama a little longer to repair the damage Dumbya left. You're cheerfully forgetting that Dumbya left us in the worst mess we've been in since the Great Depression.

GHWB came in at 5.4, left at 7.3. Clinton came in at 7.4 after GHWB...he got it down to 3.9...Dumbya came in at 4.2, left it at 7.4 after EIGHT YEARS. You can stop bitching about the rate now until you can compare it to Dumbya's record at the end of his term. It's just a fusilade of jerkass rhetoric until then. Check out the facts: http://www.miseryindex.us/urbymonth.asp Unemployment Rate figures obtained from the U.S. Department of Labor - www.dol.gov

As to job growth, it started to dive SERIOUSLY in 2008 under Dumbya; it hit bottom when Obama took office and in ONE YEAR he's gotten it above where Dumbya left off in 2008. These are PRIVATE JOBS, please note. Again, he hasn't turned it around enough, but my gawd, given the trash heap Dumbya left behind and the fact it took him a year for it to nose dive and Obama has brought it back UP in one year, your argument is absurd.

Check it out:
- Source, Barklay's Capital

http://www.businessinsider.com/10-charts-barclays-capital-2010-5#unemp
loyment-finally-looks-to-be-making-a-turn-in-the-us-as-well-7


These aren't "liberal" sites, they're business sites.

How I wish you guys would get real and stop just spouting FauxNews talking points!

If you guys didn't have the luxury of ignoring everything Dumbya left behind, you'd lose all your talking points. Of course, you do, but it doesn't cut the mustard historically, no matter how much you dismiss the state our country was left in, OR what the last two Republican Presidents did to it.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 10, 2010 8:11 AM

DREAMTROVE


That's a nasty looking chart. As someone who used to read charts professionally, that's sobering. It's a RoC, and as such, it goes way negative, and then comes back to 0, but not out of trend. Post it again a year from now, meanwhile, I'd say run for the hills is what I would read. I don't think it has a lot to do with Obama one way or another, I just think that's scary.


Byte
Quote:


But gold makes very poor weapons and bullets, it's too soft.



Um, Bullets are typically made of lead.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 10, 2010 8:51 AM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
That's a nasty looking chart. As someone who used to read charts professionally, that's sobering. It's a RoC, and as such, it goes way negative, and then comes back to 0, but not out of trend. Post it again a year from now, meanwhile, I'd say run for the hills is what I would read. I don't think it has a lot to do with Obama one way or another, I just think that's scary.



Excellent chart analysis Dream. The uptick in jobs is no different than the recent rally in the stock market, it means little until it stays positive and above trend for a while. It looks just like the chart of a typical bear market rally which is great for traders but not for long term investors. Don't put your retirement money back into the stock market until it breaks and stays above the 200 day moving average and take it out if it drops below. This is the only rule that seems to work for long term investors now that we jump from bear to bull market every couple of years.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 10, 2010 11:29 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

NO freedom in socialism for anyone.

Who does socialism free, Sig. Who ?





Who does capitalism free? Who?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 10, 2010 11:34 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
That's a nasty looking chart. As someone who used to read charts professionally, that's sobering. It's a RoC, and as such, it goes way negative, and then comes back to 0, but not out of trend. Post it again a year from now, meanwhile, I'd say run for the hills is what I would read. I don't think it has a lot to do with Obama one way or another, I just think that's scary.


Byte
Quote:


But gold makes very poor weapons and bullets, it's too soft.



Um, Bullets are typically made of lead.



Lead core, usually, covered by an alloy. Hence "full metal jacket" rounds.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 10, 2010 1:47 PM

DREAMTROVE


Kirk

Thanks. Of course, it's not really an uptick in jobs, since it's a RoC, it's a stopping of the falling. Still, in charts, you should first ignore the extremes and focus on the trend, as you said, the moving average line. Here, it's a down curve.

Once you have established that, you then look at the extremes, relative to that, and see whether they show a tendency toward MA or away from it, and which direction that is. This once I call "the bird points his nose the direction he will fly in. Here it's away, and down, far down.

I call this specific pattern "the jitters." The statistical showing here is that the ability to fall exceeds the ability to climb, and greatly exceeds the standard deviation. That's usually a very scary sign.

Sure it could turn around, but that is definitely not a chart which has turned around yet.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 10, 2010 2:32 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Of course, it's not really an uptick in jobs, since it's a RoC, it's a stopping of the falling.


Even at the very end of the curve where the percent growth turns positive it's still right on the down tread line. Not really looking very encouraging considering the jobs numbers in recent months.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 10, 2010 2:35 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Who does capitalism free? Who?



Me.

The real problem we have,” Mort Zuckerman said, “are some of the worst economic policies in place today that, in my judgment, go directly against the long-term interests of this country.”






NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 10, 2010 2:44 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
That's a nasty looking chart. As someone who used to read charts professionally, that's sobering. It's a RoC, and as such, it goes way negative, and then comes back to 0, but not out of trend. Post it again a year from now, meanwhile, I'd say run for the hills is what I would read. I don't think it has a lot to do with Obama one way or another, I just think that's scary.


Byte
Quote:


But gold makes very poor weapons and bullets, it's too soft.



Um, Bullets are typically made of lead.



Lead core, usually, covered by an alloy. Hence "full metal jacket" rounds.



Exactly, you two, I'm saying Gold has no real useful value, because unlike other metals you can't make weapons or tools out of it. It's good for an electrical current, but if your economy is crashed so far that you're considering falling back on GOLD, you probably don't need to worry about electricity (or electronic money).

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 10, 2010 3:39 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Yup. And if your economy has crashed so far that you're considering using your gold to make bullets, things have REALLY come off the rails! Except that the rails were probably all pulled up and melted down long, long ago...


If it's an apocalypse we're chasing, I'll stock up on spices and seeds, please. If you can cook and grow, and you've got guns, ammo, spices, and seeds, you'd be pretty safe.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, July 10, 2010 4:24 PM

DREAMTROVE


Gold has plenty of value to a stone age society. It's a maleable metal that can be found in its elemental form because it's essentially chemically inert.

What it doesn't have a lot of value to is an iron age society, or anything more advanced than that.

Outside of a strange economic religion which favors those who already have gold.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 12, 2010 2:30 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
I think the key is that sometimes the seller cannot inflate the price to recoup the profit because it will dent sales (sorry HK). So this works out as a tax on shareholders/capitalists, not on consumers. Another quote:

"Most markets fall between these two extremes, and ultimately the incidence of tax is shared between producers and consumers in varying proportions."

Interesting stuff, I wish we had an economist on the forum (a real one, not an ideological one).

Heads should roll

It's getting less and less possible for me to post on this board without being misunderstood and mischaracterized.

Why are you apologizing to me, however ironically? Look: I was critiquing Kirkules' characterization of what he called a "free market" when at the same time he states as fact that corporations can simply raise prices as high as they wish to deal with increased costs. That's not a free market, is it? I was critiquing his position. Critiquing his system as having a strangle-hold on consumers. That is all. Then he comes back blathering about how I must be a socialist because I think he lives in a fairytale.

Now you take what I've said as some kind of denial that supply and demand ever determine anything. WTF? As I say, it's becoming impossible to have a conversation around here.

Until people like Kirkules stop pretending the status quo is some species of "free market," as long as men like him defend the corporatist system, there is not going to be a free market, okay? Is that plain enough for you? Sure, some things are a matter of competition, like entertainment, but the really big things like oil are simply not subject to market forces until they jack the prices by several 100%. But at that point you can hardly call that market forces, that's a parasite killing its host!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.



Well I defend the free market. If Kirk believes corporations can charge whatever they want then that would contradict any support of his for a free market system. So you may have a pressure point on Kirkules' thinking but not on the free market, it's simply not true that they can charge anything they want - or they would...

The ideological comment was not a jibe at you or anyone in particular, that's just my regular longing for science (or history) untainted by politics.


It's not personal. It's just war.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Elections; 2024
Thu, March 28, 2024 11:18 - 2071 posts
BUILD BACK BETTER!
Thu, March 28, 2024 11:16 - 6 posts
Salon: NBC's Ronna blunder: A failed attempt to appeal to MAGA voters — except they hate her too
Thu, March 28, 2024 07:04 - 1 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Thu, March 28, 2024 05:27 - 6154 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Thu, March 28, 2024 02:07 - 3408 posts
Russian losses in Ukraine
Wed, March 27, 2024 23:21 - 987 posts
human actions, global climate change, global human solutions
Wed, March 27, 2024 15:03 - 824 posts
NBC News: Behind the scenes, Biden has grown angry and anxious about re-election effort
Wed, March 27, 2024 14:58 - 2 posts
RFK Jr. Destroys His Candidacy With VP Pick?
Wed, March 27, 2024 11:59 - 16 posts
Russia says 60 dead, 145 injured in concert hall raid; Islamic State group claims responsibility
Wed, March 27, 2024 10:57 - 49 posts
Ha. Haha! HAHA! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!
Tue, March 26, 2024 21:26 - 1 posts
You can't take the sky from me, a tribute to Firefly
Tue, March 26, 2024 16:26 - 293 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL