Okay, in the interest of fairness, I’ve finally found Maddow slanting something and I’m sharing it. As well, it brings up some interesting points about ..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

An unusual take on infrastructure cuts, and a gift to our righties

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 13:12
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Tuesday, August 10, 2010 7:27 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Okay, in the interest of fairness, I’ve finally found Maddow slanting something and I’m sharing it. As well, it brings up some interesting points about infrastructure changes going on because of budget cuts. This took several hours, so I hope you’ll bear with and read it, or at least enough of it to get the gist. I think it would be interesting to discuss. By that I don’t mean so much Maddow’s presentation; all media is biased and tho’ I’ve never caught MSNBC in a direct lie, I’m willing to point out bias where I see it. But the infrastructure questions it brings up I think are fascinating.

So. Last night Maddow reported on Congress coming back to work during their August recess to vote on a $26.1 billion aid package of emergency funding for states and local governments. Mind you, I think this I a necessary thing and again, I’m frustrated by the Party of No’s blocking tactics. The Republicans are expected, of course, to unilaterally vote no. While I don’t agree with this, especially as it will end up with many teachers being laid off, some checking brought up the fact that her reporting had omitted some of salient points.

She cited a number of cuts being made around the nation, and I checked it out. Turns out there are two sides to every story. She cited some of these and I went on to find others, and it was very enlightening. So here are both sides of the ones she cited and some others I found. First, place by place and nationally I will present the “negatives” of several issues, then the “positives” of those stories,:

First the negatives:

Nogales, AZ:
Quote:

The Santa Cruz County Public Works Department plans to darken 879 of the 1,164 streetlights primarily in Rio Rico and Tubac. Altherr wants to keep 285 lights that illuminate important intersections and roadways and turn off the rest of the lights, which would result in a savings of an estimated $100,000 a year, he wrote.


Stamford, CT:
Quote:

Facing a $1.2-million budget cut, the Ferguson Library will reduce hours and days at all branches beginning in September -- avoiding, for now, closing any of the libraries.


Santa Rosa, CA:
Quote:

The city council gave the go-ahead to implement the first phase of a four-year program to turn off or reduce the amount of time 10,000 of the city’s 16,000 street lights are on. The move, expected to cut the city’s annual street lighting bill of $800,000 in half, is prompted by the city’s budget crisis.


Tuscon, AZ:
Quote:

City officials are looking for more than $50 million in cuts to balance the budget. eliminating 165 positions and reducing contributions to social services agencies
They’re cutting the Parks & Rec budget, closing public swimming pools, and more.

Colorado Springs, CO:
Quote:

At a time when the world is still reeling under the impact of the recession, the government in Colorado has struck upon a unique plan. While the other countries are planning on cutting down expenditure on various schemes and policies, the government in Colorado has decided to start at the grassroots level. In an attempt to meet up the enormous budget deficit of $28.5 million, the city of Colorado Springs has decided to cut down on costs by removing the street lights in the roads, and also to do away with the trash cans. Moreover, even the police helicopters are being auctioned off in the auctioning sites in the internet.


San Francisco, CA:
Quote:

Most public transportation news isn’t good news these days—shrinking budgets have led to service cuts and fare increases all over the country, and the San Francisco Bay Area is no exception. We reported last week on how AC Transit, the East Bay’s bus service, has been particularly hard-hit.


Philadelphia, PA:
Quote:

Is the money saving policy of closing individual fire stations on a rotating basis compromising the safety of the public? Across the city Monday, 3 fire engines and 1 ladder company sat silent as the mayor's administration, struggling with an economic crisis, tries to save nearly $4-million. "The mayor's latest proposal is rolling brownouts taking affect today is dangerous, it's mistaken and it's undertaken without any regard to its impact," said Bill Gault, President Local 22 Firefighters' Union.


Clayton County, GA:
Quote:

The county commission voted 4-1 Tuesday night to terminate its contract with MARTA, which operates C-Tran, the county's cash-strapped bus system. About 2.1 million rides were taken on C-Tran buses during the last fiscal year, according to MARTA.

County Commissioner Michael Edmondson said when C-TRAN started five years ago it was funded 100 percent with federal monies that no longer exist. MARTA has run the county bus system since April 2007. According to an AJC study, the county spends about $10 million per year to operate C-TRAN, but only collects $2.5 million in revenue from riders.



Hawaii:
Quote:

Hawaii schools to move to four-day week in state cost-cutting measure. All 256 of Hawaii's public schools will be closed in the first of 17 "furlough Fridays" that will see a drastic cut in school time for up to 171,000 children. The reduction of the school week from five to four days will last for at least the next two years.

The furloughs are the most draconian measure yet taken in the US, where the recession has forced many states to slash public services. At least 25 states have forced teachers to take unpaid days off, but most of the cuts have fallen on holidays or on preparation days rather than on actual school days.

Hawaii's cuts have been particularly punishing because unlike other parts of the US, the entire education budget is paid for by the state which is labouring under a $1bn deficit. Education accounts for about a quarter of the state's overall resources.



Elsewhere:
Quote:

In Marlow, Okalahoma, the four day school day didn’t work for students or teachers. Teachers in Marlow felt that instruction suffered using the new schedule. “It was harder on the teachers. We were asking the kids to move at a quicker pace,” district Superintendent Bennie Newton told the Brattleboro Reformer. “We’re hoping the four-day week won’t come into play next year.”

To just cut one day of instruction without making significant changes to the school day and curriculum runs the risk of selling kids short. And constantly changing the school calendar is hard on working parents, who rely on consistency to provide child care when their kids aren’t in school.

Peach County, GA:
Quote:

Rex recommended eliminating report card ratings for this school year because of the severity of the cuts. Most cuts made to the state Education Department are passed on to schools, with roughly 96 percent of the agency's money going to the state's 85 school districts, according to state estimates.

The state sets high expectations for schools, but there's an assumption that the state will provide an adequate level of resources for schools to reach those goals, Rex said. With this degree of cuts, test results may not reflect what schools are capable of doing

One major consideration she would keep in mind would be the effects of changes on families, such as a four-day week, she said. Most families are working families, and if children aren't in school, she questioned where they would go.



Nationally:

Unpaving roads:
Quote:

In a country that once amazed the world with its visionary investments in transportation, from the Erie Canal to the Interstate Highway System, is now in the process of unpaving itself: in a number of states, local governments are breaking up roads they can no longer afford to maintain, and returning them to gravel. Emerging nations are making huge efforts to upgrade their roads, their ports and their schools. Yet in America we’re going backward.
Street Lights
Quote:

The recession has brought hard times to municipalities across our nation and around the world. While analyzing their budgets, looking for places to trim expenses, municipal leaders in a number of communities have noticed that they have been paying out a large, steady flow of funds to pay the power and maintenance bills for the streetlights which their towns and cities operate.


A conclusion:
Quote:

We’re told that we have no choice, that basic government functions — essential services that have been provided for generations — are no longer affordable. And it’s true that state and local governments, hit hard by the recession, are cash-strapped. But they wouldn’t be quite as cash-strapped if politicians were willing to consider emergency funding for the states.



Okay, now the positives and clarifications Maddow didn’t mention on the ones she cited:

Nogales, AZ:
Quote:

In an Aug. 27 memo to County Manager Greg Lucero, Public Works Director Scott Altherr said the county spends $120,000 to $130,000 of Highway User Revenue Fund (HURF) money each year on street lighting. “Many of the lights did not meet the criteria of serving a traffic safety purpose. HURF dollars cannot be used to pay for these lights.”


Santa Rosa, CA:
Quote:

Even local astronomers think shutting off hundreds of street lights in Santa Rosa’s junior college neighborhood is a good idea.
Quote:

Deputy Public Works Director Jason Nutt said the 1.1-square-mile junior college neighborhood, among the most well-lit in the city, will be the initial target of the reduction program. Of the 675 streets lights in that area, 307 will be turned off. Another 145 lights, mostly located mid-block in residential areas, will be shut off at midnight rather than left on until dusk.


Stamford, CT:
Quote:

George Harvey, library board president, said his group realized it needed to come up with a budget and that "we looked at a lot of scenarios," including keeping normal summer hours throughout the library system.

"We hope to raise enough money in July and August," Harvey said of the plan that was approved June 15. "We didn't want to shut everything down. We felt it was important to keep the main library open, and these are modest cutbacks."



Tuscon, AZ:
Quote:

More than half of that shortfall is the result of lower-than-expected sales tax revenue, a memo from Interim Finance Director Frank Abeyta and Deputy City Manager Mike Letcher shows. The rest is because of a failure to account for higher gas prices; higher pension, insurance, prison and payroll costs; and a transfer of funds to the state, records show.


Colorado Springs, CO:
Quote:

The police department got the two OH-58C helicopters from the Department of Defense in 1995 and used them for missions including responding to wildfires, surveillance and public safety. The helicopters were grounded in December. Despite trying to raise taxes as a measure to meet budget deficits, the move fell through, because the voters did not approve of the measure. Therefore, the only option was to cut down on government measures.


San Francisco, CA:
Quote:

But across the bay in San Francisco it’s a totally different story. Last month, Muni officials said that they’d managed to cobble together enough money from city and regional transportation bodies to restore about half of the service cuts they’d made in May. Yesterday, they announced that they have a plan to roll back nearly two-thirds of the cuts.


Philadelphia, PA:
Quote:

This is a standard practice in fire companies across the United States of America. It's one of the things that fire departments do, this is not new," explained Mayor Michael Nutter. By City Council District, Councilwoman Joan Krajewski leads the pack with 67 brownouts scheduled this month. But that's largely due to the fact that the engine 38 fire house has been demolished to make way for a new one two years from now. Its personnel & equipment has been moved to Engine 33, 3 and half miles away.


Clayton County, GA:
Quote:

Nearly five months after the dismantling of Clayton County’s C-TRAN bus service, a new, private, bus company is attempting to fill the void. QuickTransit, a local service catering specifically to Clayton residents, began operating on Monday. With a fleet of five buses and six paratransit vans, the service is picking up two of C-TRAN’s busiest routes.

Prior to owning QuickTransit, Clayton County resident, Tywanna Albro, was a stay-at-home mother. However, following the closure of C-TRAN, Albro and her husband decided to take matters into their own hands. “Clayton County is really suffering because there is no transportation,” Albro said. “Businesses are closing, people are losing their jobs, or they are paying lots of money on taxis. We actually took a leap of faith and invested our own money into the service. We bought buses from Virginia and we bought buses from California. We are growing, and we are currently looking for more drivers.”

Riverdale Mayor Evelyn Wynn-Dixon said residents and businesses along the Ga. Highway 85 corridor were deeply impacted by the shutdown of C-TRAN. She believes the system can be a great benefit to the city. “It’s not only going to help with our citizens, but it is going to help our economic development, and make us attractive.”



Hawaii:
Quote:

Most of its 13,000 public school teachers approved the furlough Friday plan because although they must swallow an 8% reduction in their pay packages, their time off for holidays and teacher planning days is left untouched. A proposal to bring in random drug testing for teachers has also been pushed back. “Everybody knows about those slack Friday afternoons, nothing ever gets done, so whats the point?”


As to schools, the 4-day school week is being tried in a number of places across the nation, some to good results, some not.

Georgia:
Quote:

Faced with laying off 39 teachers last year, the 4,000 student district chose instead to close down schools one day a week, cutting over $400,000 from their budget. And it paid of in more ways than one.

Kids came to school more often, as did their teachers, cutting the substitute teacher budget by two thirds. Test scores rose, and the graduation rate will reach 80 percent for the first time in years, say district officials. Working parents in Peach County were able to send their kids to an inexpensive “Monday care” program sponsored by the local Boys and Girls club.

South Carolina
Quote:

Jim Rex collaborated with educators across the state to create five proposals that he said would save money and do the least amount of harm to students' learning. Local school leaders would have the flexibility to decide what's best for their students. His requests, announced Tuesday, were:

--Changing state laws that prohibit more cost-effective school calendars, such as eliminating the state's minimum 180-day school year requirement and allowing districts to operate four-day weeks.
--Limiting testing this year to only what is required by federal law, which would mean a one-year exemption from end-of-course tests and social studies tests.
--Eliminating 2009 ratings for schools and districts on the state report card.
--Giving districts flexibility to use state money as they see fit instead of how lawmakers mandate.
--Enabling districts to eliminate programs that lawmakers demand.

On the potential of moving to a four-day week, Rex said school districts immediately would see a 20 percent savings in fuel, drivers' salaries and other personnel costs. Schools would have longer days but not spend as much money in delivering instruction, he said.



Nationally:

Unpaved roads:
Quote:

]You can’t argue the economics: the costs of paving roads will go up as oil becomes more expensive. Therefore, it is inherently unsustainable to manage that sort of infrastructure. So, it has to be ground up as the first step, turned to gravel. But If this persists (and it likely will) it might mean the development of different sorts of vehicles, with higher, lighter suspension, designed for gravel but capable of highway driving as well. A modern day Model T.

It’s worth noting that a road that is converted to gravel is only a few steps from having wood ties laid down, and rails laid on those. Perhaps we will see a return to light rail and trolleys in these areas, a few years after the gravel returns. And in the longer term, perhaps we will start to move away from a transportation system based on low cost oil.

Street lights:
Quote:

municipal leaders in a number of communities have noticed that they have been paying out a large, steady flow of funds to pay the power and maintenance bills for the streetlights which their towns and cities operate.. While some municipalities may be shutting off some lights now, with the intention of turning them back on "when things improve" (as they are taking other temporary measures, such as laying off employees, hoping to re-hire them before long), others are realizing that unnecessary or inefficient lighting is something wasteful which should be cut from their budgets permanently. The wisest of these towns and cities are starting from scratch, and defining under what circumstances they should be illuminating the night, to what levels, and during what hours.
Quote:

Regarding street lights: I couldn’t find solid numbers on how much energy or money is spent on street lights in America, but estimates run from 10% to 25% of municipal energy budgets. Alternatives like solar-powered street lights require significant capital outlay, as do longer-life LED lights. There is no capital available, and the population won’t agree to taxes. We will have to see if darker streets are actually more dangerous: that is not obviously the case in cities that are cutting back on street lights.
A conclusion, and one I think is worth thinking about:
Quote:

I don’t agree that we must maintain the 20th century infrastructure for 21st century progress and prosperity. We need to define a new set of principles to frame the discussion, and sustainability should be high on that list.


IF it’s possible to pass over the inevitable obscenities and accusations about MSNBC and Maddow, because know they’re coming, of course. I’ve given you an honest example of her bias to crow about. I could easily put up MYRIAD instances of FauxNews not just slanting but lying, etc., so this is to show you that I don’t just watch MSNBC and spout their talking points, I check it out.

It’s the ISSUES that I think are worth discussing, not Maddow. These articles cover why the cuts made might be good and why they might be bad; they show where private enterprise picked up the slack, how local governments have solved some of the problems, and how in some cases the cuts might lead to positive developments. Anyone interested?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:10 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

Mind you, I think this I a necessary thing and again, I’m frustrated by the Party of No’s blocking tactics. The Republicans are expected, of course, to unilaterally vote no.
/B]


Actually it was not a simple 'no'. There are two principal objections (or three if you count the 'can't afford it' argument that applies to every Obama/Pelosi/Reed proposal).

1. Some states managed to deal with this issue themselves. Why should those states be forced to subsidize states that have failed to manage their money properly? This is the straight 'no' argument. They make a valid point and one that represents their interests and perhaps the most fiscally responsible approach. I'm not sure why you would dismiss this point without consideration as a simple 'Party of No' reaction.

2. The other main objection I've seen is the 'pay for it out of the $400B+ remaining stimulas funds'. Obama has sold stimulas as saving jobs and specifically teacher/firefighter/police jobs. Instead we get $554,763 spent for new windows at the Coldwater Ridge Visitor Center at Mount St. Helens in Washington state (closed in 2007), $762,372 to develop a computerized choreography program at a University and hundreds if not thousands of projects that people would gladly sacrifice to save the jobs of cops, firefighters, teachers, and prosecutors. Again, a valid argument worthy of debate and to simply dismiss it as a 'Party of No' position is simply wrong.

Just because Republicans do not have the votes to stop this legislation does not mean they should simply 'go along' and that legitimate objections such as these should go unconsidered. Also Republicans are vastly outnumbered in both houses.

Since Republicans traditionally have as many ideas on economic policy as liberals do, perhaps the reason they are being labled the 'Party of No' is not because suddenly they are bringing nothing to the table...but rather they are not being allowed a seat at the table.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I find those statements amazing. I said I found your remarks 'amazing'" Niki2, 2010.

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Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:32 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yes, I've heard the "why should we subsidize?" argument. It doesn't hold water. For one thing, some of those states not doing so poorly are in that position because they got money out of the stimulus. For another, the "rainy day fund" of most states was at the HIGHEST point in history before the recession hit--it just wasn't high enough.

Certainly some states mishandled things, but that's not true in the majority of cases.

The argument that it should be paid for out of the stimulus doesn't sell either, for me. The concept that they can rail FOR extending the tax cuts--which aren't paid for--while stalling help for the states--which IS paid for--is hypocritical at best. The tax cuts would cost $700 BILLION...this would cost $26 billion. There is no comparison, and keeping our country infrastructure up and running is important--states, JUST like companies and the fed, have taken major blows because of the recession. Corporations got bailed out, Wall Street got bailed out, businesses went out of business, and the fed has a huge deficit (but has the money asa result). That our states need help is to me at least as imporant as those.

You feel it's right that we peons should have to deal with this stuff? I don't. We pay taxes to the fed, they should be there for us in drastic times like this.

All of which is beside the point. My question was about whether some of these money-saving ideas might be of value, whether we should fix the current infrastructure (if the Repubs allow it, thank you very much) or look at alternatives which use the money better.

To say
Quote:

perhaps the reason they are being labled the 'Party of No' is not because suddenly they are bringing nothing to the table...but rather they are not being allowed a seat at the table.
is a major laugh. MANY of the provisions the Republicans wanted--PROPOSED, BACKED prior to a Dem Prez being in office--were included in numerous bills in hopes of getting votes. They then voted against their own proposals unanimously.

They have said themselves that they're going to be the Party of No, they didn't get labeled that by some outside source. They've said CLEARLY that their agenda is to stop Obama, no matter what he or the Dems propose. To try and say it's 'cuz they didn't get a seat at the table is absurd.

As to
Quote:

Since Republicans traditionally have as many ideas on economic policy as liberals do
I'd LOVE to hear them--all the many ones besides "cut taxes", "deregulate" and "reduce the deficit", which are the only ones I've ever heard when it comes to economic policy. They already DID the first two--and look where it got us--and as to reducing the deficit: remember those expiring tax cuts? Remember the one-page Republican "proposal" for fixing the economy?

I didn't put this up to debate partisan issues about the infrastructure; my intent was to see what people thought about some of the ideas and solutions, the possible "good" side of some of these matters, and whether the end conclusion is right: that we need to start thinking differently, rather than just "fix" our existing infrastructure.

Oh, and how exactly do you figure the Repoublicans won't "have the votes" to stop this legislation? Considering they are demanding a filibuster-proof majority on virtually EVERYTHING, how do the Dems have the votes to pass it??


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:50 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I think that creative municipalities and states can find ways to fill budget gaps without resorting to simply deactivating services entirely, and I think this is clear from several of the examples you posted. When faced with a budget crisis, many politicians will threaten 'no schools, then. And no parks. And no police. Etc.' to get what they want. This was done recently in Phoenix. 'Institute this tax or we'll fire X educators.' Well hell, thanks muchly. I feel held up for ransom.

It's the municipalities that come up with creative angles allowing them to maintain services and jobs in the face of economic challenges that impress me. And also municipalities which ALLOW private enterprise to pick up the slack.

In my home town of Hialeah, Florida, the Bus services were not particularly impressive. Private individuals started to buy long passenger vans, and offered to ferry old folks and pedestrians around for nominal fees. The allure of having a van come to your house, drop you off at the grocery store, and come back in an hour was strong. Same for taking you to the mall. Sometimes a few square blocks would be serviced by a single driver, who would schedule with the retirees. Okay, Mary, Albert, Tom, Gary, and Mike, I'll take you to the grocery store on Monday. Sue, Quincy, Dan, Patricia, and Frank, I'll take you to the grocery store on Tuesday. We'll go to the Mall on Wednesday and Thursday. A special Friday route to visit sick friends in the hospital. Door to door service and back again, on an agreed-upon schedule. For this convenience, each person was happy to pay five or ten bucks per route every week. It worked great, and everyone was happy. With twenty or so regular clients on a regular, easy schedule, a van owner could pay for his van, insurance, and living expenses. Many dozens of such van owners could be independently employed in their own little areas of the city. This created jobs and solved transportation issues, all without huge overhead expenses. Everyone was pleased.

Except for the city, who started seeing bigger losses in bus revenue. Their solution? Require a more expensive business permit for these new mini-bus drivers, to ensure they couldn't afford to operate. (A few companies who had several vans and drivers could afford this, and coincidentally also saw their competition dry up, and so they could charge more from their clients. I wonder if these few companies had friends in City Hall?)

So the passenger vans largely vaporized, and the old people were stuck with either a bus system that didn't meet their needs very well or a large taxi company that wasn't affordable. And the under-used bus system itself continued to lose money, as it always has, and probably always will.

Occasionally, the solution to solving the problems of diminishing funds for government services is for the government to get out of the people's way.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Tuesday, August 10, 2010 10:40 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
As to
Quote:

Since Republicans traditionally have as many ideas on economic policy as liberals do
I'd LOVE to hear them--all the many ones besides "cut taxes", "deregulate" and "reduce the deficit", which are the only ones I've ever heard when it comes to economic policy. They already DID the first two--and look where it got us--and as to reducing the deficit: remember those expiring tax cuts? Remember the one-page Republican "proposal" for fixing the economy?


Cut taxes- It is generally accepted that the Bush tax cuts prevented the economy from going into full recession after the 2001 WTC attack. It is also generally accepted that raising taxes during economic times such as this would be very bad. Why? Lower taxes stimulate more spending which generates increased economic activity at all levels thus resulting in a net increase in revenue. Raising taxes has the opposite effect.

Deregulation- You seem to think deregulation had something to do with this crisis. It did not. This crisis was caused when banks were forced by the Federal govt to lend money to people who could not pay it back. It was a 1999 program that was instituted to make sure that poor folks and minorities would be able to achieve the dream of home ownership despite their low incomes or lack of employment. Banks, saddled with toxic debt invented new mediums of exchange to traffic in this debt in order to maintain their solvency. Regulation that prevented the trafficing in bad debt would not have prevented the crisis since the bad debt would still have been on the books. Banks, faced with bad debt and no way to move capital would have been forced to shut down. Banks that chose to remove themselves from the home loan business would have been squeezed out of the market by foriegn banks and eventually having lost market share and legitimate capital investment would have been forced to shut down. The underlying problem, however was the govt program invented by Barney Frank and his liberal friends who lacked the one piece of knowledge that was essential to running a financial system...you don't lend money to people who can't pay you back.

Reduce the deficit- There are many economists who agree that having a deficit and a debt is a good thing. I agree, but like every good thing...too much is bad and way to much is fatal (Pringals are a good example). Recent problems in Greece, Spain, and some other Europeans have shown us what happens when the debt to income ratio get too high. Or you can look at your own checkbook. If you reach a point where the minimum payment on your credit card exceeds your monthly income...time to call your bankruptsy lawyer.

So in short cutting taxes is good in general. In this case the cuts are already in place. They need to be extended. The immediate effect would be an end to uncertainty that has paralized long term financial planning past December. The long term effect would be increased revenue, more investment, and ultimately more economic activity.

Deregulation is good in general. In this case we need to let our bankers and business folks get back to doing what they do. When it comes to regulation...Congress and the Fed govt write the regulations. So far this Congress has done nothing right, so why would you trust them to fix Wall Street or any street? The Obama administration is filled with folks who know nothing about business, management, or finance except what they hear from the unions, their commie/liberal social friends, and good intentions. So far they've failed at every plan and program, what makes you think they're the people to regulate a business?

Reducing the deficit is good in general. In this case we simply cannot sustain the amount of debt we are currently generating. In the first year the Obama administration racked up more debt the Bush did in 8, or...the entire rest of the Presidents going all the way back to 1789 combined.

These are just the three things you mentioned. Other Republicans working at the state and local level have many ideas for handling these problems...at the state and local level. My City, for example, with its long term Republican Mayor, forsaw these problems and cut our spending in 2007 reducing our problems in 2009 and 2010 and putting us in a good position to weather the storm that is sinking our Democratic neighbors to the South.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I find those statements amazing. I said I found your remarks 'amazing'" Niki2, 2010.

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Tuesday, August 10, 2010 10:48 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Deregulation- You seem to think deregulation had something to do with this crisis. It did not. This crisis was caused when banks were forced by the Federal govt to lend money to people who could not pay it back."

Hello,

Somehow I missed the day in training where they said, "Okay, when underwriting these loans, it's important to note that while the customer can't pay us back, we have to lend to them anyway. This is because of a federal mandate requiring us to loan to people who can't repay..."

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 9:51 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Hooo-wee, Hero, you are textbook.
Quote:

It is generally accepted that the Bush tax cuts prevented the economy from going into full recession after the 2001 WTC attack... Lower taxes stimulate more spending which generates increased economic activity at all levels thus resulting in a net increase in revenue
No, tho’ gawd knows you won’t believe it, we’ve done that one and proven it 100% WRONG! It is NOT "generally accepted", even economists, even G.H.W. Bush admitted it; trickle-down DOES NOT WORK.
Quote:

This crisis was caused when banks were forced by the Federal govt to lend money to people who could not pay it back.
You’re shitting me. Remember derivatives, and all the other things the banks HAVE ADMITTED TO since their crash? That’s a real talent for twisting in the wind and burying your head...you RWAs blow my mind sometimes. I'll let you go back to your little box where you can ignore what's really happening in the world; I thought you had something substantive to offer.

So in other words, “all” the Republicans have to offer on the economy is the three same old tired things. Ergo, your argument is . Just like your argument that the Republicans weren’t given a seat at the table. Pure partisan talking points; nothing of substance.



Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 10:24 AM

RIVERLOVE


Obama and Pelosi just stole $ 12 billion from the FOOD STAMP PROGRAM to pay off their teacher union whores. Dems across the country are screaming about it.

And this forever blame Bush shit is the most fucking pathetic excuse I've ever seen in politics. Democrats, yes fucking Democrats controlled CONGRESS during Bush's last 2 years, and that's when the whole fucking economy started to tank. Democrats protected Fannie & Freddie, and their bad paper spread throughout Wall Street like a virus. Democrats fucked up this country's economy and the voters know it. Niki-bitch and her merry band of liberal fucks here can attempt all the historical revisionism they want, but they are not fooling anyone, certainly not the vast majority of Americans who think Obama and his socialist douchebag co-conspirators in Congress have taken this country to the brink of ruin. If the Tea Party can defeat the Republican Party, just wait 'til you see what they do to Democrats in November!

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 10:38 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


HEAT HEAR!

Anything is better than DemoProgs! Or NeoCons!

Let US in, well give you something you aint EVER seen before.

Like freedom.

A balanced budget.

And, oh yeah... personal accountability.

Why goodness, the country might grow up a bit.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 10:46 AM

BYTEMITE


Sounds good, Wulf, but I'll believe it when I see it. Maybe if these people prove themselves first, then I might consider supporting them when they're up for re-election...

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 10:46 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Like freedom.

A balanced budget.

And, oh yeah... personal accountability



Uh, freedom? Like in wiretapping, Patriot Act and warrantless searches?

Balanced budget? That's just too funny to even pay attention to. Dumbya had the final say in the budget his entire term in office, and HID the cost of the Iraq war, keeping it out of the budget, then ran up the biggest budget in history while trashing the American economy.

Personal Accountability? When were Dumbya OR Darth ever personally accountable for ANYTHING they did? Oh, and they sure as hell made the MSM "personally accountable"...not to mention so many others.

Give it a rest, WulfWind...your fantasies will never come true, sorry.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 10:56 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

"And this forever blame Bush shit is the most fucking pathetic excuse I've ever seen in politics."

I agree. As pathetic as the blame Obama/blame Democrats/blame Liberals line.

"Niki-bitch and her merry band of liberal fucks"

Name calling is particularly pathetic as well.

"If the Tea Party can defeat the Republican Party, just wait 'til you see what they do to Democrats in November!"

The Tea Party didn't defeat the Republican Party any more than my lunchtime sandwich defeated my stomach.

They are allies, and increasingly difficult to distinguish from one another.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 11:07 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

The Tea Party didn't defeat the Republican Party any more than my lunchtime sandwich defeated my stomach.
MARVELOUS sentence, had both Choey and I giggling!

And yes, the Tea Party has pused the Reputlicans further to the right, which in some cases is going to lessen their chances of defeating Dems in November. Despite what you see on the news, the Tea Party is still a VERY small group, disorganized, without the power or finances of the Republican Party. The Repubs may go right currently to get Tea Partiers elected, which is better for them than Dems, but if they get elected, watch 'em be run over/integrated/toned down by the GOP.

I have a sneaking suspicion, I theeenk it's gonna be kinda fun around here in November...

I see RivKaneZitJSKirkAnti still enjoys its attacks on me, from what you quoted. Go for it, darlin', I'm honored to give you a target upon which to vent your warped wrath. Keeps it off others, and unless someone quotes it, I don't even know it's there. You go, girl/man/whatever you are!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 1:12 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I have a sneaking suspicion, I theeenk it's gonna be kinda fun around here in November...


Oh you have noooo idea...

Take your basic L-trap ambush and apply it politically instead of physically, which is all imma say at this time.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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