President Favors Equal Rights by AnthonyT

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

President Favors Equal Rights

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Thursday, August 19, 2010 16:09
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Thursday, August 19, 2010 8:14 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

What ever happened to the "property rights" the conservatives are always blabbering about? I guess they don't apply to Muslims, eh?

Would ANYONE on the right be protesting if this was a new church being built two blocks from the Murrah Federal Building site? That site was attacked by Christian extremists, after all.

Would you be protesting the inhumanity and poor taste of building a McDonald's in Hiroshima?

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Thursday, August 19, 2010 8:25 AM

RIVERLOVE

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Would you be protesting the inhumanity and poor taste of building a McDonald's in Hiroshima?

I don't recall the Japanese having a problem with it, or asking for it not to be there. If they had I'm sure it would never have opened there. Did they not want it there? Besides, fish and rice get a bit boring after a while, don't they?

When some Jewish groups asked Pope Paul II not to build a church outside Auschwitz death camp a while back he complied out of respect to the petitioners, and the church was never built. Too bad this Imam won't do the same.

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Thursday, August 19, 2010 8:34 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Except a funeral is a private 'party.'

Except it's nine years later.

Except it's across the street from the graveyard.

Except the dead include the minority in question.

Except, well, almost everything.

The greatest presumption is that Muslims are not part of the affected community. That they didn't have members killed, or a great sense of loss. That their lives and world weren't equally upended.

That THEY are not US.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

Or that "they" are all "immigrants". There are plenty of American-born Muslims, many of them living in the area of New York City.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Thursday, August 19, 2010 8:35 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Except a funeral is a private 'party.'

Yep. I'm not arguing about the legal rights of the thing, just the morality.

Quote:
Except it's nine years later.

Except it's across the street from the graveyard.

Except the dead include the minority in question.

Sure. But do you accept my premise? That there is a case for sometimes respecting irrational, unenlightened (but still human) pain - even giving it priority over efforts of reconciliation and tolerance? That was the point I wanted to demonstrate in my story.

The second question I have for you is DO you think there is actually any REAL pain and sensitivity around this issue - even after the hype and scare mongering is removed? I personally think if:

It was a hundred years later

or,

It was at the other end of the city.

Then the idea of pain around this issue would as Mal4 put it, be pretty ridiculous. As it is I think it is near enough the bone for people to be sensitive about it.

I'll answer more later.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, August 19, 2010 8:37 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I couldn't agree more about the politicians, but just to play devil's advocate:

Like Tea Partiers calling Obama "Hitler" and democrats "socialist", "fascist", "communist", and any of all the other things they spout.

Or when Michelle Bachman says ANY of the things she says about democrats/Obama

Like Glenn Beck (or whoever it was) calling Obama a racist who hates white people

Like the Republicans, starting with Palin, claiming there are "death panels"

Like the birthers saying Obama is a Muslim terrorist who wasn't born here

Like the guy who manipulated the Sharron video and all the people who called her and the NAACP racists

Like many on the right calling dems "terrorist lovers"

Like, hell, I could go on all day. Fact is politicians on all sides utilize whatever fear tactics they can to achieve their agenda.

Fair is fair; it's not just one side, and I'm sorry, I know you'll disagree, but ever since the last election, the right has been MUCH more verbal and used terms which are MUCH uglier.

As to the community center; I don't think it'll take 100 years, but I'm pretty sure in my lifetime it won't change. Especially for as long as we're in Afghanistan and Iraq, and especially for as long as terrorist attacks continue. The mentality is fostered by both of those, and the equation of Muslim with Terrorist has been too deeply ingrained in the American subconscious to fade in the foreseeable future.

And I agree with Anthony, the comparison isn't correct. You forgot one thing, Anthony: The people in the example weren't coming to the cemetary to pray, which had nothing to do whatsoever with the family members who died.

That IS the crux of it. It's about 9/11 to Americans, but it was planned and approved last December and has nothing to do with 9/11 except in Americans' minds.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, August 19, 2010 8:48 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I am certain that there is real pain and sensitivity around this issue. And I'm sure that pain and sensitivity is felt all around. And I'm sure that different people have different ways of dealing with it and each other.

Has no one considered that a community center designed to build bridges may be an equal product of pain and sensitivity?

That a way of dealing with troubles after the event may be to reach out? Niki says it originally had nothing to do with 9/11, but I'm sure that the need to build bridges is very much related to 9/11.

Has no one considered that telling Them that They should't do that, or leastwise telling Them that They can't do it where they want to, might be twisting a dagger in THEIR wound?

It's not Them and Us. It's not Them being insensitive to Us, or Them not considering Us.

It's just Us. All of Us. We are cutting off a part of Ourselves to make it the Other.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Thursday, August 19, 2010 1:13 PM

KWICKO

Exactly so, Anthony. And "we" are so angry and frustrated by "them", we are so infuriated by those who would do violence and knock down buildings and rage against us...

... That we're completely willing to endorse doing the exact same things to them that we condemn them for allegedly "endorsing".

Some Muslims "cheered" on 9/11. So? How many Americans cheered when Saddam was toppled? How about when he was hanged?

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Thursday, August 19, 2010 1:41 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
And again I stress - it isn't the actual victims of 9-11 who are making this fuss. Do you acknowledge this? Or have you heard of something I haven't?

Yes I have, though I'll confess it was from Auraptor. But I can easily believe that this touches a raw nerve for some 9-11 families. But more than that, I see this as a sensitive issue for America as a whole - even Americans who didn't directly lose loved ones may feel the wound to some extent. So I think ordinary Americans have a right to feel on this issue. If all the 9-11 victims' families were united in support of the muslim centre then that would be a powerful statement for the rest of America to listen to and follow the lead of - but I'll be amazed (and happy) if it's true. Human beings will have proved themselves better and nobler creatures than I thought.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, August 19, 2010 1:54 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Has no one considered that telling Them that They should't do that, or leastwise telling Them that They can't do it where they want to, might be twisting a dagger in THEIR wound?

Yep, and you could say that the muslim community suffereds both wounds, as they had casualties on 9-11 as well (and it was their country too, that was attacked). My analogy doesn't address that - but it does (at least I tried to make it) address the dagger in their wound: that's the grieving mother turning them away from the funeral when they wanted to pay their respects and show that they were not the same as the crazed murderer.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, August 19, 2010 2:04 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

So exactly what percentage of the 9/11 families being in favor of it would change your mind? 50%? 75%?

I don't think freedom of religion is up for a vote. I also don't think what people "feel" is as importantas what they say and do. All feelings are appropriate; it's what we do with them by which we are judged.

Bear in mind, this was a non-issue for five-and-a-half MONTHS; people knew about it, nobody cared, until ONE PERSON started a campaign against it, and now the whole country has taken sides, one against the other, and it dominates the news. Doesn't that say something to you? That a thing which nobody cared about, which was approved, has been blown up into a national controversy?

To again give you the chronology:

Quote:
Last December the Times published a lengthy front-page look at the Cordoba project. "We want to push back against the extremists," Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the lead organizer, is quoted as saying. Two Jewish leaders and two city officials, including the mayor's office, say they support the idea, as does the mother of a man killed on 9/11. An FBI spokesman says the imam has worked with the bureau. Besides a few third-tier right-wing blogs, including Pamela Geller's Atlas Shrugs site, no one much notices the Times story.

"I can't find many people who really have a problem with it," Laura Ingraham said of the Cordoba project last December on Fox, adding at the end of the interview, "I like what you're trying to do."

Fox News did a segment with Daisy Khan, Executive Director of the American Society of Muslim Advancement about the “mosque”. After the segment — and despite the front-page Times story — there were no news articles on the mosque for five and a half months.

In May, after a unanimous vote by a New York City community board committee to approve the project, the AP runs a story. It quotes relatives of 9/11 victims (called by the reporter), who offer differing opinions.

Then Geller got ahold of it and blew it up. Doesn't this tell you something? If a community center--which is what it is, no minarets, no "mosque"--was built, approved of by the appropriate committee in New York, and there was no Geller to grind her axe, how many people do you think would have paid attention or cared?

Now it's an issue. People have to take sides. It's wrong; freedom of religion is precious; people are entitled to their feelings, but not at the expense of innocent others.

This is a non-issue which has been turned into a "faux issue", and people have fallen for it. Shame on them, and anyone else who wants to make it a fight.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, August 19, 2010 2:53 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
So exactly what percentage of the 9/11 families being in favor of it would change your mind? 50%? 75%?

A clear majority like 75% or >, of victims' families in favour of the mosque, would be a miracle in my eyes, and I would change my mind and get behind it on this basis. But without this miracle, and if the public mood is against it, my gut tells me that no good can come of this, in terms of reconciliation. And I'm a pragmatist. I think the most classy and beneficial thing (in terms of reconciliation) the planners of the mosque could've done is back down as soon as the storm arose. Like the immigrants walking away from the funeral and not making an issue about it. To press ahead and build it anyway, even with the best of motives, would be a pyrhic victory in my eyes. But that's just my opinion. I'll say again, I may not be the best judge of American sensitivity on the issue of 9-11 - but do you argue that it's all hype, or the pain comes from misinformation? Perhaps it wasn't upsetting people before because it wasn't widely known about.

Quote:
It's wrong; freedom of religion is precious; people are entitled to their feelings, but not at the expense of innocent others.

Some people value freedom above ALL, but not me. This is a relatively small infringement on freedom of religion (it's an inconvenience, they can travel a bit further to pray) on the Muslim inhabitants of just one particular neighbourhood. If it upsets most of an entire nation, then to me it's no contest - on the right/wrong wisdom of the thing. Though I'm not suggesting the law can, or should be rewritten to reflect this.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, August 19, 2010 3:34 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
By the same token then, you would be ok with building a statue honoring Hirohito at Pearl Harbor?

Your anology is incorrect. Instead you might ask - what would be the reaction if a Shinto shrine was to be built at Pearl Harbour.

Nobody is suggesting that a statue of Bin Laden is to be erected at Ground Zero.

I think the President's position is clear. He does not support the building of the Mosque, he supports freedom of religious worship. Two different things.

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Thursday, August 19, 2010 3:54 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1437

Hello,

I found this interesting.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Thursday, August 19, 2010 4:09 PM

KWICKO

Anthony, I'm sure that can't be factual. After all, we Americans would NEVER be that understanding and forgiving, would we?

[/snark]

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

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