I can't believe they are doing this. Not only is it absolutely contrary to our Constitution and everything we stand for, it is grandstanding which may b..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Re: The Qu'ran burnings

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Sunday, September 12, 2010 06:47
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VIEWED: 6017
PAGE 3 of 3

Friday, September 10, 2010 4:14 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Try to imagine the U.S. Military writing to you about one of your posts on Fireflyfans.net, and explaining to you that your public statements are putting U.S. Servicemen in danger.

If you think that's the role of government or the military, then we have very different ideas about government.

--Anthony




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Saturday, September 11, 2010 1:56 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Fuck em, they wanna burn a book, let em burn it, this is a free county - so long as they paid for it, what is that to me ?



You have employees right? You have critters and folks your company protects correct? I'm sure there are times when you've had to sacrifice your desires or comfort to do what's best for them.
I could care less about this guy - burn a quran bible quran sandwich as far as I'm concerned.
That part of me that slows down at bad car accidents and looks - that part would like to see this guy burn his books live on CNN just to see what would happen, and to show Islam we don't give a shit, we won't be bullied. My older side knows that's kind of foolish and a bit selfish, and that not finding out is smarter for everyone.

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Saturday, September 11, 2010 2:07 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

But there is also that exact same implied threat with fringe Christianity! That's what so many of you are unable to see or admit to. Look at how many counties in this nation there are where you cannot get an abortion - a COMPLETELY LEGAL MEDICAL PROCEDURE - at ANY price, simply because no medical provider is willing to risk their life and the lives of their families and employees to undertake what is completely legal and constitutionally protected.



You'll get no argument from me about crazy christians being dangerous.
I disagree that they are equally dangerous though. Bibles were burned in Afghanistan by our own servicemen no less (people who you would think should at the very least while in such danger, be able to have the comfort of their religion), and no one died from it.

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Saturday, September 11, 2010 2:31 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Oh worse than that, Piz - There's times I've had to risk my very neck protecting people I fucking HATED, who were profoundly and personally offensive to me, standing up for them and their rights because no one else had the damn guts or the nerve to take the high road when it got rocky.

You also might note how I get really annoyed when it's me, the friggin Anarchist, who winds up having to cite the rule of law and it's purpose to folk all to willing to gather up torches and pitchforks.

Believe me, I know all too well what it is to grit your teeth and stand in defense of the rights of people you despise, who would, without question, not do the same for you, who believe in fact that no one besides them HAS any rights...

Hell, I don't like it, often wonder if I should do it, but it's not a matter of what I *want*, it's a matter of what is right, and in the alleged words of Martin Luther...

"Here I stand, I can do no other."

That's more true than you know, something like that is reflex to me, a compulsion of dire force that'll bend even my iron will to the task, I can't NOT do it, just don't have it in me.

When someones rights are about to get stomped, the path of diamond shield *requires* me to intervene, no matter how much I hate the would-be stompee.

This wackjob doesn't rook me as bad as Phelps does, mind you - this is more of the same kind of irritation I get from Gus, when in response to racist cracks he starts playing to it as a form of mocking sarcasm, it's effective, but it irritates the bloody hell out of me when he does it... not that my mouth and ability to pick a fight don't do the same to him, mind you.

Be funny as hell if this moron makes the same mistake some of them Astaru made last time we let them start a bonfire, one of em never did get his beard to grow all the way back in, heh heh.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, September 11, 2010 2:47 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Oh worse than that, Piz - There's times I've had to risk my very neck protecting people I fucking HATED, who were profoundly and personally offensive to me, standing up for them and their rights because no one else had the damn guts or the nerve to take the high road when it got rocky.

You also might note how I get really annoyed when it's me, the friggin Anarchist, who winds up having to cite the rule of law and it's purpose to folk all to willing to gather up torches and pitchforks.

Believe me, I know all too well what it is to grit your teeth and stand in defense of the rights of people you despise, who would, without question, not do the same for you, who believe in fact that no one besides them HAS any rights...

Hell, I don't like it, often wonder if I should do it, but it's not a matter of what I *want*, it's a matter of what is right, and in the alleged words of Martin Luther...

"Here I stand, I can do no other."

That's more true than you know, something like that is reflex to me, a compulsion of dire force that'll bend even my iron will to the task, I can't NOT do it, just don't have it in me.

When someones rights are about to get stomped, the path of diamond shield *requires* me to intervene, no matter how much I hate the would-be stompee.

This wackjob doesn't rook me as bad as Phelps does, mind you - this is more of the same kind of irritation I get from Gus, when in response to racist cracks he starts playing to it as a form of mocking sarcasm, it's effective, but it irritates the bloody hell out of me when he does it... not that my mouth and ability to pick a fight don't do the same to him, mind you.

Be funny as hell if this moron makes the same mistake some of them Astaru made last time we let them start a bonfire, one of em never did get his beard to grow all the way back in, heh heh.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.



Yeah, I knew I was stating the bloody obvious.

But it does raise an interesting question then:
Who's Rights should take precedent here? The preacher idjit to burn his quran, or the innocent people who might also get burned because of it? Who's Rights do we protect?

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Saturday, September 11, 2010 3:39 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"the innocent people who might also get burned because of it?"

Hello,

This reminds me of an episode of Dungeons and Dragons (the cartoon) I saw when I was younger. The Dungeon Master granted his powers to the Cavalier (a self-interested pompous ass) so that the Cavalier could have the ultimate power and hopefully learn responsibility.

Upon finding himself thirsty, the Cavalier ordered up a fountain of water to spring from the Earth. He drank, and then was informed by the Dungeon Master than an entire village had to suffer a drought that year because the Cavalier had summoned up this water. Presumably, many people died for that hasty quaff.

And we are all meant to nod our heads in realization that abuse of power has its price, for it was certainly unwise to summon a drink of water while condemning a village to die of thirst.

But we are meant, presumably, to forget that the Dungeon Master allowed an entire village to die of thirst merely to show a snobby teen the price of misusing power. So who was the worse abuser, the Cavalier for ignorantly summoning a drink, or the Dungeon Master for giving the immature Cavalier the power to wipe out villages?

Sometimes those old cartoons would slam you with moral anvils, but they didn't always convey the message they intended. At least, not to me.

--Anthony

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Saturday, September 11, 2010 5:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Try to imagine the U.S. Military writing to you about one of your posts on Fireflyfans.net, and explaining to you that your public statements are putting U.S. Servicemen in danger.
Does not correlate, to me. Not the same thing...I'm not out there, putting my actions forth to get attention, I'm doing something relatively private. And the two are very different, in my eyes.

I see a huge difference between talking to someone and advising/asking them something, and forcing them, or even intimidating (and I don't know if THAT was done, given I don't trust the military). If that were to happen to me, I'd re-read my post, decide for myself if it was right or wrong, then either tell them to take a long walk off a short pier or, if I saw validity in their argument, change it.

Like I said, it's my OPINION, and we're free to disagree. I don't see the governments job as flatly this or that; the world is full of greys for me and every situation is unique in one way or another. And of COURSE we see government and the military differently; is there anyone here who sees them the same all the time?

Anthony, I'm kinda confused. Is this about the Qu'ran burning? How does it relate? So far, nobody (that I'm aware of) is "behind" allowing this guy to burn Qu'rans, however stupidly, he's doing it on his own and pretty obviously FOR himself, given his past actions.

I definitely understand your point and the double-edged sword you illustrated, I just don't see how it relates. (p.s., cartoons are allegorical lessons for children; you're not supposed to think that deeply about them. )

Pizmo:
Quote:

That part of me that slows down at bad car accidents and looks - that part would like to see this guy burn his books live on CNN just to see what would happen, and to show Islam we don't give a shit, we won't be bullied. My older side knows that's kind of foolish and a bit selfish, and that not finding out is smarter for everyone.
Thank you for that last part...I was reading and thinking some things that last part erased.

In a way, you're giving a perfect example of a THINKING person. It's in part pure selfishness, to me, that all these people are behaving the way they are. They put their own actions above EVERYTHING--and I mean the people trashing Islam, not just the preacher, and those saying stupid things and acting out. They're actually doing just that, "acting out" like children saying "Neener, neener, I can do what I want", and not thinking about things like the Constitution, what America stands for, human decency; something just pisses them off or scares them (and from fear comes anger comes hate, so it's pretty much the same thing) and they act out of their own selfish feelings.

That, too, is just my opinion, but I believe if more humans were thoughtful of consequences (hahahahahaha) it would be a better world.

I don't think anyone is saying there is an equivalency...again with the greys and perspective, I think people are saying that to believe/claim it's all black and white is wrong, that again, all religions have been used to incite violence and NO organized religion has clean hands. I except Buddhism, because it is not a "religion" per se, but there is violence even in its history, and buddhists of Thailand even give us some recent examples.

But to compare the few acts of violence in buddhism to the many acts of violence in the name of Christianity is as unreaslitic as comparing current Islam with Christianity. There is only the effor to say "no religion is free of violence, that's all.
Quote:

Who's Rights do we protect?
Can we not "protect" both by voicing our support or opposition to either/both? Can WE actually do anything about any of their rights except talk about them? If we WERE right there, would we attempt to "protect" either's rights by force? I think that's the question, more than which side we feel deserves the protection, for me.



Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Saturday, September 11, 2010 7:00 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Somewhere in New York, a Muslim wanted to put up a building. Members of government voiced opposition, and I shook my head at them.

Somewhere in Florida, a Christian wanted to burn a book. Members of government voiced opposition, and I shook my head at them.

I try to be consistent. The President's first answer was the correct answer: "They have the right to do this thing. I won't comment on the wisdom of it."

Quote:


(p.s., cartoons are allegorical lessons for children; you're not supposed to think that deeply about them. )



As though children always color inside the lines. Cartoon writers need to acknowledge that their audience is a bit more savvy than they'd prefer, and the lessons conveyed are not always the lessons they choose.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Saturday, September 11, 2010 7:07 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I agree Obama's attempt at neutrality with a hint of his own opinions was the correct one, despite the Islamaphobes saying he was "in favor" of it. I wish he'd spoken out sooner, and I wish there was a RESPONSIBLE "anyone" on the right speaking up to quell the ant-Muslim attitude currently. I know:

Nothing wrong with being consistent; I prefer to take each situation as it comes.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Saturday, September 11, 2010 7:53 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:

But it does raise an interesting question then:
Who's Rights should take precedent here? The preacher idjit to burn his quran, or the innocent people who might also get burned because of it? Who's Rights do we protect?



In a sense, his rights are absolute; theirs are more theoretical ( and yes, I know that's not going to sound right, but read on...). You say they MIGHT get burned because of it. So in this instance we seem to be looking to violate someone's rights of free expression to protect someone else's rights who MIGHT get hurt by a third party, possibly, conceivably, at some indeterminate point.

I'd say before you can violate ol' Preacher Yosemite Scam's right to burn a Qur'an at this time on this date, you need to show me specifically whose rights are going to be impinged in this country, and where, and when.



AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Saturday, September 11, 2010 8:07 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Anthony, I'm kinda confused. Is this about the Qu'ran burning? How does it relate? So far, nobody (that I'm aware of) is "behind" allowing this guy to burn Qu'rans, however stupidly, he's doing it on his own and pretty obviously FOR himself, given his past actions.



[Raises hand...]

Actually, I *am* behind allowing him to do it. I fervently hope he WON'T do it, because of all the probable and possible consequences of it, but I fully support his RIGHT to do it. I'm against burning books of any kind, much as I might joke about wanting to show up to his little rally with a truckload of bibles; I don't even support burning Sarah Palin's book, or Glen Beck's. I support people having the RIGHT to do so, but I don't support the action itself.

The reason I support his right to do this is because I also support my right to burn a bible if I choose, or your right to burn a flag. I find such behavior abhorrent and offensive, but I also reserve the right to partake of such symbolism if the need arises. You and I don't have a constitutional right to not be offended or made to feel uncomfortable.

(For the record, I find shooting people offensive, too, but reserve the right to keep and bear arms, and to protect myself, my family, and my property.)

Do I think this preacher's an idiot? Of course. Do I think Imam Rauf is an idiot? Yuppers. But even idiots are supposed to be able to seek refuge and sanctuary within the Constitution, aren't they?

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Saturday, September 11, 2010 8:19 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I meant the Dungeons and Dragons reference; there's nobody "behind" any lesson the burning might illustrate, and it's not about greed (just attention!). So I don't get where that's relevant to the issue, that's all.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Saturday, September 11, 2010 10:07 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

The Dungeon Master that gives the Cavalier the capacity to destroy a village, and then chastises him for it.

Someone has created a situation so precarious that a Florida book burning can harm the lives of servicemen. Then they chastised the book-burner.

Go ahead and forget government meddling with citizens and free speech. That's just hypocrisy.

--Anthony



Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Sunday, September 12, 2010 6:47 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ah, thank you, I see where you were going now. While I don't agree 100%, it's a valid point. I think I'd have said "Someone(s) created a situation where a preacher would WANT to burn Qu'rans..." then the rest.

You misunderstood: I wasn't arguing your point, only confused by it and asking for clarification.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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