REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

American 'Special' forces kill British aid worker during botched rescue (not PN)

POSTED BY: OLDENGLANDDRY
UPDATED: Friday, October 15, 2010 13:39
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VIEWED: 2467
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Monday, October 11, 2010 7:55 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY

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Monday, October 11, 2010 8:00 AM

STORYMARK


It is unfortunate, but she was there of her own volition, and they didn't have to try and rescue her.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, October 11, 2010 3:55 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Unfortunately, these things can happen, but I do have two nitpicks with it.

Firstoff, what moron chucked a frag grenade during a rescue, that's absolute incompetence to start with, you use a flashbang or rubber sting if you need area suppressant, at least until you get the hostage in custody and cover - at which point use anything you like, I reccommend napalm, cause the screams of burning buddies tend to send the right message about pulling this shit, make SURE some get away to carry the tale, too.

Secondly, look, someone fucked up - admit it, every time someone shovels shit trying to cover their ass, it just wrecks up the credibility of a military which ain't got bloody much left to begin with, and this has a serious detrimental affect on morale and recruiting over time.

Sure, you can't give the aid workers life back, and whoever fucked it up by winging that grenade has to live with what they've done, which is of itself harsh enough... HOWEVER, for the purposes of discipline and failure to follow proper procedure, they should lose a stripe and be transferred to a line unit.

Can't undo what's been done, but corrective action should be taken to prevent further screwups.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, October 12, 2010 4:04 AM

QUESTIONABLEQUESTIONALITY


The word "MAY" has meaning. I'd look it up if I were you, one does not want to walk the earth lost in definelation.

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Tuesday, October 12, 2010 5:46 AM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse


Shoulda called the SAS. They "MAY" have done a little better.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

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Tuesday, October 12, 2010 6:05 AM

QUESTIONABLEQUESTIONALITY


They "May" have blown her up better?

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Tuesday, October 12, 2010 8:17 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


You "MAY" want to invest in a dictionary.

"Definelation"? Seriously?

Who the hell do you think you are, Sarah Palin?

You should really "refudiate" that mess, post-haste.


The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.


Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:10 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Sure, you can't give the aid workers life back, and whoever fucked it up by winging that grenade has to live with what they've done, which is of itself harsh enough... HOWEVER, for the purposes of discipline and failure to follow proper procedure, they should lose a stripe and be transferred to a line unit.

Can't undo what's been done, but corrective action should be taken to prevent further screwups.


Fault lies entirely with the kidnappers.

I think being killed during a resuce attempt is far better then having your head chopped off on TV after suffering months of rape and abuse at the hands of your captors.

A hostage rescue is perhaps the most difficult and dangerous operation a special forces unit can undertake. Rules of engagement are limited meaning its far more dangerous for the rescue team then a simple assault would be. And after all that effort and risk there is the very real possiblity that the victim will be killed or injured by her captors or killed in the crossfire. I commend them for the the effort and hope they take this and learn for the next time...which is how these things normally work regardless of success.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

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Tuesday, October 12, 2010 10:14 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Again with the decapitations myth, which I've blown up six ways to sunday HOW many times ?
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/iraq_group_claims_us_soldier_hostage/
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,128314,00.html

And don't even get me started on a certain other incident in which a bunch of "arabs" so light they must have been albinos, decided to off a guy in an Abu Gharib jumpsuit in a place that via background comparison was without a doubt a US facility.
(That being Nick Berg, for them who wasn't here)

Not that, yanno, the Taliban and other militants aren't capable of, and completely willing to, lop peoples heads off - but shovelling a known bullshit story does your already laughable credibility no favors there, Zero...

And tell me again about Jessica Lynch, or Pat Tillman, ehe ?
Great stories, those - too bad none of em were true, innit ?

Ergo, perhaps I don't trust the accounts of the same folk who sold me those bullshit stories without outside verification, unlike folks like you who gobble up even obvious falsehoods just because they validate your sickass worldview.

That said...

This isn't about blame - this is about proper professional procedure and effective ROE for a hostage rescue situation, in which at NO point before the hostage is secured and in custody should area effect weapons be used, ESPECIALLY when you have not visually confirmed and identified the hostage, fuck, might as well just clusterbomb the place as that.

Stick with your little rigged game and silver platter cases handed to you by a set-up system, lawyer boy, instead of sticking your finger in a pie you know *nothing* about.

Oh, and just in case anyone thinks the "Aid Worker" was any kind of innocent...

Lemme make it abundantly clear to you, that USAID, NAI, and NED are UA Embassy-sponsored front groups for the fucking CIA and their corporate buddies, and were heavily involved in a couple coup attempts (one in Venezuela) and various campaigns of sabotage, harrassment and espionage against world leaders we don't like cause they won't be our bitch - Cuba caught one of em around december last year as red-handed as it gets, so these people are no innocent babes in the woods by a long shot.

Seriously, do you really think they'd go to all that fucking trouble of an actual rescue, when letting them die would buy more political points - if they weren't a goddamn intel asset who might spill potentially compromising information ?

And while I don't think that was the intent, cause they really were going for the big-damn-heros rescue, getting her dead (so she can't spill) was almost a much a "win" for the folks in charge, don't you know, cause they're still gonna blame the local Warlords, Taliban, what have you - how dare you catch and interrogate our spy/saboteur, oh noes, the horror.

Puh-lease.

So let's quit fucking pretending this isn't what it is, and don't take MY word for it, look it up yourselves, if you're willing to look beyond the obvious bullshit story designed by Hilton and Knowles for maximum PR spin.

Yanno, it's kinda liberating to have been recently told nobody really cares if I talk "out of school" or not, anymore.

-C-6/Cuckoobird.

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, October 12, 2010 11:59 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Sure, you can't give the aid workers life back, and whoever fucked it up by winging that grenade has to live with what they've done, which is of itself harsh enough... HOWEVER, for the purposes of discipline and failure to follow proper procedure, they should lose a stripe and be transferred to a line unit.

Can't undo what's been done, but corrective action should be taken to prevent further screwups.


Fault lies entirely with the kidnappers.

I think being killed during a resuce attempt is far better then having your head chopped off on TV after suffering months of rape and abuse at the hands of your captors.

A hostage rescue is perhaps the most difficult and dangerous operation a special forces unit can undertake. Rules of engagement are limited meaning its far more dangerous for the rescue team then a simple assault would be. And after all that effort and risk there is the very real possiblity that the victim will be killed or injured by her captors or killed in the crossfire. I commend them for the the effort and hope they take this and learn for the next time...which is how these things normally work regardless of success.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.






Intel was she was about to be released cos local Elders intervened with the kidnappers. So the "rescue" was unnnecessary in the first place.

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Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:17 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:


I think being killed during a resuce attempt is far better then having your head chopped off on TV after suffering months of rape and abuse at the hands of your captors.



I kinda think both would suck pretty bad. If I ever had to be rescued (and fuck that), I don't imagine I'd be feeling very grateful if I ended up dead because of the attempt. Though granted, I don't think I'd be feeling any warm and fuzzies towards my captors either.

Y'know, because I'd be dead.

Seems illogical to suggest someone should be grateful for "help" when it ends with them worse off.

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Tuesday, October 12, 2010 5:35 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Well, this is lawyer boy we're talkin about here, Byte, who works for the Government, cause they got a real damn strange concept of "helping" people to begin with, don't ya know...

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StopHelpingMe

If by some misfortunate stupidity, someone ever kidnapped me...
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PityTheKidnapper
And DIDN'T go batshit and send me back with a sympathy note - don't call the Government, call Ross Perot.
Quote:

Just prior to the 1979 Iranian Revolution, the government of Iran imprisoned two EDS employees in a contract dispute. Perot organized and sponsored their rescue. The rescue team was led by retired U.S. Army Special Forces Colonel Arthur D. ('Bull') Simons. When the team was unable to find a way to extract their two prisoners, they decided to wait for a mob of pro-Ayatollah revolutionaries to storm the jail and free all 10,000 inmates, many of whom were political prisoners. The two prisoners then connected with the rescue team, and the team spirited them out of Iran via a risky border crossing into Turkey. The exploit was recounted in a book, On Wings of Eagles by Ken Follett, which became a best-seller. In the 1986 miniseries, Perot was portrayed by Richard Crenna.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 2:23 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Come to think of it, even if they did rescue you all in one piece, Byte - you'd prolly still be right pissed off due to a little procedural detail they came up with some time after my break with the military...

Know what they do, the instant they get the hostage in custody ?

Slam them face first in the dirt and zip-cuff them, I shit you not, and more than one of em has been killed due to that crap, thanks to being unable to act in their own defense or support of their rescuers at a critical moment.

The supposed justification is that the hostage might run off or get confused and fight them, but for the most part that is bullshit, you gotta remember just what kinda control freaks you're dealing with here.

Now, as for non-american hostages, maybe it makes sense, cause there's no way those poor bastards can be sure we're not gonna kill em ourselves, and they got perhaps good REASON to feel that way, since that was the fashion in which our guys "Rescued" Aristead from an empty palace, not under any kind of threat, in order to make way for another propped up buddy of papa doc - and if one of them soldiers hadn't had a crisis of conscience and slipped the man a cell phone, he WOULD have been goin out the door of that plane at several thousand feet - sure as hell they HAD to cuff him, cause he had no reason to leave, and would have taken control of the situation and squished the uprising flat if we let him.

Anyhow, SOP is to ground-slam and zip-tie the hostage, and for what it's worth I would stop cooperating and start resisting deliberately at that point even if it DID put both me and the rescue team in critical danger cause there's some shit I just will not tolerate - I'm crazy that way.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 4:38 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
Intel was she was about to be released cos local Elders intervened with the kidnappers. So the "rescue" was unnnecessary in the first place.


Ok. I'm sure your intel was superior to that given to the President of the United States and the Prime Minister of Britain...not to mention the commanders in theater.

Sounds like Monday morning bullshit to me, although if its true then Obama should resign since the final decision was his. I'm all for Obama resigning.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 4:40 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Well, this is lawyer boy we're talkin about here, Byte, who works for the Government, cause they got a real damn strange concept of "helping" people to begin with, don't ya know...


Why I just helped a fella out today. It involved him pleading guilty and paying a high fine...but he kept his license.

I'm a softy.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

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Wednesday, October 13, 2010 6:18 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Ok. I'm sure your intel was superior to that given to the President of the United States and the Prime Minister of Britain...not to mention the commanders in theater.


Hmm, Niger Yellowcake, imminent threat, WMD, complete walkover, flower throwing Iraqis, home by xmas...?

Yeah, pretty sure my intel is superior, yeah.

And don't give me that monday morning quarterbacking shit, since I could have told you everything *I* said well in advance of even the hostage taking, just wasn't no point in it.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 4:55 AM

OUT2THEBLACK

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 5:06 AM

QUESTIONABLEQUESTIONALITY


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
You "MAY" want to invest in a dictionary.

"Definelation"? Seriously?

Who the hell do you think you are, Sarah Palin?

You should really "refudiate" that mess, post-haste.


The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.


Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.




Dumb-nuts...A play on "lost in trans..oh forget it". Do you think anyone thinks definelation is a word? You were lost in my wordification. Idiot.

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 3:54 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Thanks for the headsup, OTB.

As expected, unintentional but completely preventable - some nitwit failed to follow procedure and disaster resulted, and mind you this is WHY we have those procedures and ROE, to prevent exactly this kind of mess.

He knew better, and as such, disciplinary action is appropriate, yet while I am far more sympathetic to the family of the lady than our military, still there's no need to crucify the soldier over it, bad enough he has to live with it, you know ?

As such, loss of a stripe and transfer to a line unit is the usual discipline for this kind of screwup, and seems appropriate here.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 10:24 PM

CATPIRATE


British aid worker hmmm, Looks like Linda Norgrove may have either been a well to do naive liberal or a taliban sympathizer. A friend of mine (a woman) is over there as a contractor. She is not going off the base. Ole Linda is trotting around unprotected in badland country. Sorry don't buy it. My troops should not be put in harms way for her.

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Friday, October 15, 2010 2:38 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
As expected, unintentional but completely preventable - some nitwit failed to follow procedure and disaster resulted, and mind you this is WHY we have those procedures and ROE, to prevent exactly this kind of mess.


The procedure he failed to follow was letting commanders know during the debrief that he used a grenade, the disaster is the public relations damage that resulted from the initial incorrect (really incomplete) report.

As for the mission, the grenade was used at the exterior during the initial assault. The hostage was killed in an area she was not supposed to be in and in fact was not in when the assault started. She was dragged from her holding place likely by her terrified captors for use as a human shield (or perhaps taken by her captors in the hopes they could escape with her during the confusion). In any event her death was the result of enemy action and is a tragic consequence of a surprise night time assault on a hard to reach and well defended target. Odds of a successful rescue were low, but higher then the odds of her surviving her captivity.

Some folks here have speculated that her release was imminent, this is wild speculation based on nothing. In fact the intel had her either being executed or being transported to Pakistan both of which would have meant no possibly rescue or recovery.

This assault was her best chance and we took it. I belive it was done in the best tradition of the service and the fact the primary objective failed is merely a reminder that war is not a video game which can be reloaded and replayed until the correct outcome is achieved. War is bloody, brutal, and most often tragic and all to often the innocent die and the good guys don't win.

I'd gladly defend this soldier in Court...and I'd win because you don't scapegoat the guy on the ground just because an operation with extremely low odds of success didn't succeed. There is no blame here, only lessons to be learned and a reminder that we need to make every effort to hunt down and kill every one of these bastards till they are all dead or they throw down their weapons and beg for mercy. I am still of the opinion that it may be necessary to remind the Muslim world that Americans invented the concept of Total War right about the time we adopted a policy of Unconditional Surrender for our enemies.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

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Friday, October 15, 2010 4:19 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Catpirate, see what I said above about the real purposes of certain (supposed) NGOs like NAI, which Norgrove worked for.
She was probably trying to gather local intel in preparation for drone strikes and got caught at it by folk who either didn't buy that "I'm an aid worker" bullshit, or flat didn't care.

S'why I have a problem with our intel folks using the fig leaf of aid groups, it's like hiding strike teams in ambulances - once you start playing that bullshit, the real aid groups can't get a goddamn thing done cause no one will trust them anymore.

Anyways, this chick was likely an intel asset, and neither sympathizer nor babe in the woods - you really think, given the PR spin the warmongers could milk this for in the press, that they would have bothered with a rescue if she wasn't, given how many actual aid workers we've left swinging in the breeze hoping for torture and executions to "justify" our continued aggression ?


And Zero, again, stick with what you know - ROE specifically calls for NOT using frag grenades even in the initial assault, or at all until the hostage is located and secured, FOR THIS EXPLICIT REASON, cause otherwise this is what tends to happen.
The soldier in question damn well knew this, and his failure to follow proper procedure caused mission failure - that's not acceptable.

Yes, ultimate responsibility lies with the bastards who grabbed her, but...
Ok, ponder an auto accident, which is, ultimately, the responsibility of the other driver - but the victim dies because of a doctors completely avoidable screwup when he fails to follow proper procedure ?
You damn well know, legally at that point he does share some of the responsibility, and it's the same thing here, this is negligence, is what it is.

SOP for this is usually handled via standard Non-Judicial Punishment, which doesn't go through a court, and generally means loss of a stripe (in extreme cases a bust to E-1), official reprimand, and transfer to a line unit - and if the troop does make a point of it to go full court martial, be advised that court is as rigged as the one you operate in, only you'd be sitting in the bullseye this time, and he would without a doubt get handed the Big Chicken Dinner (i.e. Bad Conduct Discharge) regardless of mitigating circumstances cause that is how things WORK, in military "justice" - you either take your lumps with a smile, or you get a boot up your ass.

No need to crucify the guy, but he *did* fuck it up, and that needs to be addressed in this fashion to prevent breakdown of discipline.


-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, October 15, 2010 7:32 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And Zero, again, stick with what you know - ROE specifically calls for NOT using frag grenades even in the initial assault, or at all until the hostage is located and secured, FOR THIS EXPLICIT REASON, cause otherwise this is what tends to happen.


Thats crap. They were issued the grenades. Your argument is that they were issued equipment they would not be allowed to use and would be required to transport a long distance in a short time over some of the world's roughest terrain. That makes no sense.

I'm sure it makes perfect sense to you to show up completely unarmed, after all if they are carrying guns the hostage might get hurt.

They enemy camp was very difficult to reach and heavily defended. The presense of the hostage meant to air or artillery support. The need for surprise and speed meant they could not go in with overwhelming force.

Do you honostly expect them to assault the exterior defenses of a mountain fortress with only small arms? Since the operational parameters have not been released we can only speculate, but I suspect they planned the assault and included grenades to help reduce enemy bunkers and strongpoints that would normally be suppressed by air or artillery. I've read a lot about special operations and cannot see them proceeding as you've described under these conditions, other conditions, yes, these conditions, no.

Perhaps you should expand your own knowledge beyond playing 'Call of Duty' on the novice setting or watching reruns of 'The Unit' and 'The A-Team'.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

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Friday, October 15, 2010 8:05 AM

CATPIRATE


FF, Just remember that any of these world, united, children, and global terms in groups are funded by terrorists. Unicef is anti american. Big time against the 2nd amendment. On a side note. Va Beach Va is full of these half baked groups. Now there is alot military officer wives involved in them. Back in my Navy day my skipper forced us to give 2 bucks a check to unicef. Cause his ole lady was involed in it. Now he is a retired admiral makes ya sick. They still do this crap today. Stay away from commie flag groups like the UN, unicef, and etc. Blue and white logos, wheat leaf logos, and children faces. I might be headed that way in a month as a contractor I'll get the real scoop.

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Friday, October 15, 2010 9:59 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Stick with reading your right wing fantasy novels, Zero.

Or at least read the goddamn relative field manuals themselves, any of the FM-90's or the damn Ranger Handbook around page 200 or so, if memory serves.

Rarely are frag grenades issued, and for a fact, using one before direct, visual confirmation of the hostage location is a blatant breach of the rules of engagement which exist to prevent exactly this kind of fiasco, period.

Thing is, as has been made obvious here, were it not well known already, y'all rightwingnuts don't give a shit about the facts, or realities of a situation, so long as you can weasel it to justify your intolerant, murderous impulses towards anyone different from you.

I got little problem with offing the bastards who kidnapped the lady, spook or not, but you worry about that shit AFTER you get the hostage secure - or you might as well just bomb the fucking place and be done with it.

Hell, did I not mention above that my reccommended followup would be napalm ?

Ain't about right or wrong, ain't about politics - to me this is about DOING THE FUCKING JOB COMPETENTLY.

The troop in question violated the ROE, causing hostage KIA/Casualty and mission failure, that fact isn't going to change no matter how you cram your fingers in your ears and scream denials, and it is your very tendancy to do that, which is why I never, EVER want you rightwing bastards in charge of anything, ever again.

Above all things, I loathe incompetence.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, October 15, 2010 1:39 PM

L1GHTBR1NGER

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