REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Cure All Fountain of Youth?

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Friday, December 17, 2010 20:15
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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 5:48 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I have just had someone tell me about an old, decrepit, dying dog that was injected with its own stem cells. Its physical ills are reputed to have reversed themselves and the dog has taken on a more youthful demeanor.

Is this just one of those hoax rumors, or is this an actual thing? Does anyone know?

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 6:03 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Anthony,

It's real.

http://www.ktka.com/news/2010/dec/13/topeka-dogs-aging-backwards-after
-stem-cell-proced
/

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703785704575642964209242
180.html


I read another article that the "fountain of youth" doesn't actually extend life. Dogs with this treatment actually end up dying at around the same time as other dogs. But they die healthy and "young." So for now, it appears to be a quality of life treatment. I can't find that article now, but I remember that point.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 6:07 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

One wonders if this can't be applied to humans? Or has it been?

--Anthony

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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 6:18 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE


Have you guys heard of the HIV treatment case/patient known as the Berlin patient?

He was injected with Stem Cells in an effort to fight his Leukemia, not his HIV, and lo and behold, a few years later, scientists believe they have cured HIV in this man....

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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 6:36 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I have just had someone tell me about an old, decrepit, dying dog that was injected with its own stem cells. Its physical ills are reputed to have reversed themselves and the dog has taken on a more youthful demeanor.

Is this just one of those hoax rumors, or is this an actual thing? Does anyone know?




I will be extremely doubtful - this sounds like perfect viral fodder for the click machines/news sites (some copy writer deserves a raise). "Immortality discovered!"

The WSJ site says:

"By tweaking a gene, the researchers reversed brain disease and restored the sense of smell and fertility in prematurely aged mice. Previous experiments with calorie restriction and other methods have shown that aspects of aging can be slowed. This appears to be the first time that some age-related problems in animals have actually been reversed."

The use of the word "reversed/reverse" I question, or do they mean "cured?" Reversed makes it sound a little like magic elixir stuff.

I have always wondered though... our bodies definitely have a time code of some kind hardwired into them. When we are young we actually grow and build muscle etc, and then something tells us to stop doing that at some point, some kind of bio software we're born with. So who's to say we can't crack the code on that? Maybe stem cells issue new instructions, alter the code?

ETA: careful when you mess with Mother Nature: WSJ:
"One worry is cancer. Tumors somehow turn on the telomerase gene, allowing cancer cells to divide continuously. Up to 90% of human cancers require certain levels of telomerase to do so. Indeed, many researchers are trying to deactivate telomerase as a cancer-fighting strategy."

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 6:43 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by BlueHandedMenace:
Have you guys heard of the HIV treatment case/patient known as the Berlin patient?

He was injected with Stem Cells in an effort to fight his Leukemia, not his HIV, and lo and behold, a few years later, scientists believe they have cured HIV in this man....



Hello,

I read about this. However, it is important to note that his entire immune system was destroyed in dangerous procedures as part of the cure. So... it wasn't just the stem cells.

--Anthony



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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 8:56 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Anthony, BHM: Right - it was stem cell treatment (which the article said fully a third of people who it's used on DON'T survive the treatment), PLUS aggressive chemotherapy, PLUS full-body irradiation, all in a bid to stave of an acute myeloid leukemia, I believe it was. The HIV was actually being managed quite well, and wasn't the target at all, but they can now find no trace at all of HIV anywhere in the man's system.

It's not that this is a big breakthrough as a method of treating or curing HIV, because the treatment is probably far deadlier than the disease is, at least with modern HIV drug cocktails; what's important is that this shows that HIV *CAN* be eradicated once a person is infected. That's the real takeaway from this story, the idea that there's a direction to look in for targeted HIV abatement, preferably utilizing less toxic, less radical treatment methodologies.

As to stem cells and fountains of youth - even if you died at the same age, but died in better shape and healthier, wouldn't that be worth it? QUALITY of life is what we're talking about here, not QUANTITY of life.

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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 8:59 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


By the way, here's the article on the HIV "cure"...

http://gizmodo.com/5713498/man-officially-cured-of-hiv?skyline=true&s=
i


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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 10:34 AM

BYTEMITE


Aren't the infirmities of old age important though? Some of the best poetry out there deals with the fragile transience of life in the face of aging and death.

And a sense of mortality gives us caution, both thinking about ourselves and our families and about other people/nations.

A society that is overly concerned with a youthful physique and appearance seems like dangerous ground to go down. Firstly in where the society would draw the line in describing youth, and secondly in how shortsighted I predict such a society to be.

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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 10:55 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Byte, I'm glad your here. I was thinking much the same thing but just couldn't find a good way to put it into words without looking like I'm afraid of it because it's 'unnatural.'

Not that I've lived long enough to really know this, but I think you can be 'youthful' in old age if you take good enough care of yourself. My grandpa was especially active, up until the day he died, though has was also a little overweight. He didn't believe in giving up 'life's little pleasures' like good food, but it never seemed to slow him down. He died a few years ago of some form of brain something, which was just kind of a random thing no one could have seen coming (sorry I suck with details, but as sort of a coping mechanism I often distance myself from the details of a problem like this I can do nothing about). All and all, he seemed to live a nice, fun and full life, acting somewhat 'youthful' but definitely not looking it.

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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 12:25 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I'm thinking more along the lines of being older, and actually GETTING older, but not so much with the shattering your femur when you step off your front porch (as recently happened to my aunt) or the being bedridden with heart disease or being out of your mind with Alzheimer's.

I doubt this "fountain of youth" is going to REALLY "reverse" aging, or stop it - if I take a tumble now, it takes A LOT LONGER to heal up than it did when I was 30, or even when I was 40. I'm not really vain enough to care whether my hair goes grey, but I don't relish the day I can no longer walk or get out of bed.

At such a point, I think I'd vastly prefer a few months or years of "false youth" to a slow, agonizing death, poets be damned.

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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 1:02 PM

BYTEMITE


So would the corporate gods of consumerism.

I'd hardly suggest that if we could develop this, then people shouldn't have a choice. People have the right to chose between suffering and no-suffering...

But if I'm being completely honest, I think the no-suffering choice is a mistake, and dangerous. Damn the poets all you want, but there's truth to be found in poetry. I would not ever want to give that poetry up.

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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 1:09 PM

BYTEMITE


I may as well come out right with the reference.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BraveNewWorld

"O Brave New World, that has such people in it!" ~Miranda, The Tempest. (Unironic in it's first appearance, now used almost entirely ironically)

I might also be able to draw some correlation between Brave New World and A Clockwork Orange... And both, as you well know, have overlap with the planet Miranda.

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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 1:48 PM

BYTEMITE


You might find my citing fictional books comical, especially considering my comments earlier today in regards to the V for Vendetta guy and "brainwashing by television, movies, and internet."

But some books are more than just books, or just fiction. 1984 was written by a guy who fought alongside Anarchists against Fascists, Communists, and Socialists in Barcelona. He saw what would come of the rise to power of centralized, militarized government.

And far more scary, Brave New World was written as a take that against Huxley's counterparts in America (he was a eugenicist and a globalist), who he thought were creating an insipid society with their commercialism. Ray Bradbury wrote Farenheit 451, and later supported acts of censorship under the most recent administrations.

Some dystopian novels aren't just fiction. They're actual recipe books, things to come put down on paper by people who know what others were planning and disagreed on one point or another without necessarily turning away from the globalist agenda.

And I probably sound crazy for saying that, but I don't particularly care. This is where history and literature overlap.

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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 1:55 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


But Byte, I'm not simply talking about suffering versus not. I'm talking about life-altering suffering, suffering that leaves one unable to really LIVE a life of any decent sort, versus having mobility, or clarity of thought.

Having just watched someone very close lose a dog to old age and a massive amount of suffering, I think they'd happily have chosen to have that dog be happier and healthier, and then just... gone.

I'm probably not explaining myself very well. I wouldn't necessarily trade my scars, my adventures, or experiences, but it would be a bit of a blessing to be able to wake up without pain now and again.

This Space For Rent!

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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 1:57 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
You might find my citing fictional books comical, especially considering my comments earlier today in regards to the V for Vendetta guy and "brainwashing by television, movies, and internet."

But some books are more than just books, or just fiction. 1984 was written by a guy who fought alongside Anarchists against Fascists, Communists, and Socialists in Barcelona. He saw what would come of the rise to power of centralized, militarized government.

And far more scary, Brave New World was written as a take that against Huxley's counterparts in America (he was a eugenicist and a globalist), who he thought were creating an insipid society with their commercialism. Ray Bradbury wrote Farenheit 451, and later supported acts of censorship under the most recent administrations.

Some dystopian novels aren't just fiction. They're actual recipe books, things to come put down on paper by people who know what others were planning and disagreed on one point or another without necessarily turning away from the globalist agenda.

And I probably sound crazy for saying that, but I don't particularly care. This is where history and literature overlap.




I don't find such cites comical at all.

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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 1:59 PM

MINCINGBEAST


The very false gallop of verses: why do you
infect yourself with them?

Brave New World isn't that interesting after you leave adolescence. I prefer After Many Summers Dies the Swan which is now eerily timely given all of this stem-cell fountain of youth bullshit.

Btye is crazy but for a dystopian novel that is less fantasy, and more historical account (if not outright blueprint) see Koestler's Darkness at Noon. Granted, its a thinly veiled portrait of the Stalin and the Russian revolution, but I think it ought to count...

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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 2:07 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

But Byte, I'm not simply talking about suffering versus not. I'm talking about life-altering suffering, suffering that leaves one unable to really LIVE a life of any decent sort, versus having mobility, or clarity of thought.

Having just watched someone very close lose a dog to old age and a massive amount of suffering, I think they'd happily have chosen to have that dog be happier and healthier, and then just... gone.



I know, and I don't disagree that it isn't noble in some way to want to reduce that suffering.

But this is the very application of the idea in Brave New World. Once people in Brave New World were physically mature, they started treatments to keep them in the prime of youth, then suddenly die one day. Suffice to say, there are psychological problems that can be expected to come from this.

You have to be very careful about the hows and the whys here. The people who mean us the MOST harm, the people who mean to strip us of our humanity and creativity and turn us into their work slaves, they're the ones who tempt us with ideas that seem like candy but are pure poison.

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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 2:13 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:

But Byte, I'm not simply talking about suffering versus not. I'm talking about life-altering suffering, suffering that leaves one unable to really LIVE a life of any decent sort, versus having mobility, or clarity of thought.

Having just watched someone very close lose a dog to old age and a massive amount of suffering, I think they'd happily have chosen to have that dog be happier and healthier, and then just... gone.



I know, and I don't disagree that it isn't noble in some way to want to reduce that suffering.

But this is the very application of the idea in Brave New World. Once people in Brave New World were physically mature, they started treatments to keep them in the prime of youth, then suddenly die one day. Suffice to say, there are psychological problems that can be expected to come from this.

You have to be very careful about the hows and the whys here. The people who mean us the MOST harm, the people who mean to strip us of our humanity and creativity and turn us into their work slaves, they're the ones who tempt us with ideas that seem like candy but are pure poison.




Ahh - Now I see where you're coming from. Good point. Hadn't thought about that angle. Now I must withdraw into my cave to reconsider!

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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 3:04 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Given that outside of work hours, damage and ill health has confined me to a fucking wheelchair, and I've only barely passed the big four-O...

Fuck it, I'd take that chance - you know ?
(Unless one of you wants to loan me a HAL exo-frame, that is)

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 3:23 PM

DREAMTROVE


Basically you can reverse aging with stem cells, but very few humans die from aging. Most humans die from dumb things they do, cancer and toxicity from dumb things other humans did, and third, from the hazards of mother nature, ie, parasites, diseases etc.

That said, yes, it's a major step.

Frem:

I suspect You're lot healthier than you think. Figure being in pretty much the exact situation you're in, and add a malignant brain cancer.

I would keep you immune system in tact, rather than reset. You don't know how many dogs they killed trying...

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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 3:31 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Basically you can reverse aging with stem cells, but very few humans die from aging. Most humans die from dumb things they do, cancer and toxicity from dumb things other humans did, and third, from the hazards of mother nature, ie, parasites, diseases etc.

That said, yes, it's a major step.

Frem:

I suspect You're lot healthier than you think. Figure being in pretty much the exact situation you're in, and add a malignant brain cancer.

I would keep you immune system in tact, rather than reset. You don't know how many dogs they killed trying...




Hello,

There are people who suffer greatly from not only the decays specific to age, but other decays and the damage of life. I know a few.

I don't doubt that they would risk a great deal to live a life that isn't shrouded in constant agony. Agony which is only lifted by drugs which addle the brain and ruin the liver.

--Anthony



Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 7:01 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
There are people who suffer greatly from not only the decays specific to age, but other decays and the damage of life. I know a few.

I don't doubt that they would risk a great deal to live a life that isn't shrouded in constant agony. Agony which is only lifted by drugs which addle the brain and ruin the liver.


Yeah, as if many of them could even GET those, most of em, they suffer, dying by inches, screaming inside, told to suck it up by people who's complete lack of empathy and fear of our so-called "War on(some)Drugs" causes them to not only dismiss the pain as irrelevant, but the human being suffering it as such.

I present to you the Vachss short story Dope Fiend.
http://www.vachss.com/av_books/short_stories/dope_fiend.html

Remember, I just watched a friends father die, inch by inch, screaming, via doctors who did everything in their power to keep him alive, to prolong the suffering, while doing nothing whatever about it - all the while their bosses gleefully rubbing their hands as the bills racked up and effectively destroyed not only his life, but the life of his daughter, who will never, ever in her own life get out from under that debt.

I ever find myself at that point, provided my enemies (whom I have mostly outlived) don't do me the favor first, many of my friends would kill me first.

For what then, is mercy ?
Why do we grant our PETS a mercy and grace we are unwilling to grant fellow humans ?
Is life so sacred or so sweet, to be bought at such a terrible price when it no longer has any value ?

I'm doin ok, such as it is, but if ever it comes to it - fucking shoot me, right.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 8:09 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Annnd, tonite is a perfect example.

May you never know, what it's like to choke down eight ibuprofen 200's and a shot of rum - which mind you I gotta make a special trip to get since other peoples religious and moral standards prevent me from buying it at any time and place convenient to me - and then, wincing, pull the gel sleeve over your tattered and bleeding stump, line up the pin lock and ram it home while pinning a knuckle between your teeth to hold back the scream.

To stand, and then to walk, every step a bolt of agony like lightning all the way up your spine, keeping the pain off your face only by long years of practice, your own body rebelling with cramps and muscle twitches as you slip and slide through the snow and slush despite your boot chains, hoping against hope the bitter cold will make you numb so you don't have to feel any more.

Trying to maintain situational awareness while everything around you is fading out in a red haze of pain, tempted to reach for the berserkerang despite being on borrowed time and a mild stroke the last time you even tried, falling behind and needing to move faster to make schedule, a 7/8 mile which might as well be fifty, and so you reach for the only card you can think of, that has seen you through so much, but the hate isn't there and all you can grab is a mild disgust, at yourself for your weakness, at the world for its apathy, desperate to go on, to maintain the facade, bills to pay and would that you could ignore pain and incapacity right out of your reality but it's there and it's chewing you to pieces, and somehow you manage to round the corner, hitting the last two keys on little more than instinct, memory and reflex, consciousness washed out in a white haze of static from your overloaded nervous system, and you manage to dig in a tenous grip as you make the home stretch to the door, and fall into the chair with a combination of relief and revulsion at that relief, pulling off the prosthetic for a short rest, and the realization that you have to do this four more times crashes down upon you with the weight of all your sins...

No, it's not normally that bad, but tonight, it is.
Ask me again, what I would not risk.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, December 15, 2010 9:29 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


That really really sucks. Makes me very grateful for my health. I don't know how you get through it but I'm glad you do.

I hate taking medicine and am always iffy on painkillers, I don't like feeling unfocused and reducing my awareness (though that may very well change if I ever experience real pain or illness). Not when I'm trying to work on things anyway, I certainly enjoy the occasional drink or few. In most cases I figure pain is there to tell you what's wrong and feeling painless might lead you to injure yourself, but I'm pretty sure you know damn well what's wrong and I wish there was a better way for you.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 1:34 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
No, it's not normally that bad, but tonight, it is.

Sooo sorry, Frem.

Big hugs.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 6:35 AM

BYTEMITE


Frem: you fell on the ice and your prosthesis came out? Ow. ow ow ow.

:(

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 11:27 AM

FREMDFIRMA



No Byte, that was just normal use, on a bad day - sometimes it's really bad and the stump is all ragged and bleeding (the prosthetic does damage over time, cause you gotta hook the meat to the metal somewhere...) and I got a job to do, so the only thing I *can* do is slap some alum salt, antibiotic cream and a light bandage over the worst of it, pull up the gel sleeve and get on with it.

And that much worse is that I dare not show it, cause in this biz it'd be an unaffordable admission of weakness - if the local hoodlums for a moment knew I could not physically chase them down and thrash them, they'd eat this place alive - the neighborhood up the road has gone to hell in a handbasket and it's only our presence here which is drawing the line, with some grudging assistance from the countys badge bearing goons since we held em to the fire a bit about it at budget time.

Most days it's ok, some days it's bad, and some days it's really, really bad, and last night was one of em - but hell, these days to even have work is a blessing, but I wanted to hand out a taste of what it's like to folk who wonder why anyone would take an "insane" risk like we were discussing here.

For some people, there really isn't a price they wouldn't pay - I wonder what Mr Hawking wouldn't give to go to the beach, do a little surfing and play a game of volleyball, you know ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 11:32 AM

BYTEMITE


Yeah.

Is it any better today?

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 11:34 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I have just had someone tell me about an old, decrepit, dying dog that was injected with its own stem cells. Its physical ills are reputed to have reversed themselves and the dog has taken on a more youthful demeanor.

Is this just one of those hoax rumors, or is this an actual thing? Does anyone know?

--Anthony




More evidence that we're our own best cure, and there's not so much a need to harvest embryos for their stem cells.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 12:06 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Better being a relative term - less painful than listening to the Rappys bullshit, that's for sure.

-F

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 12:08 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Better being a relative term - less painful than listening to the Rappys bullshit, that's for sure.

-F



Truth hurts, huh ?




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 7:03 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Only Rappy could read the word 'bullshit' and somehow, in that fact-deficient addled mind of his decide that Frem wrote 'truth'.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 8:04 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Only Rappy could read the word 'bullshit' and somehow, in that fact-deficient addled mind of his decide that Frem wrote 'truth'.




The points I brought up are factually accurate. Regardless of how Frem ( or you ) wants to deal w/ them. The issue isn't what Frem labeled my views as, but what they are, as I so plainly stated.

A more productive reply by either of you would on the substance of my remarks, and not the out of hand dismissal and use of profanity.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 8:41 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Unless of course you have a genetic predisposition to an illness like, for example, Parkinson's or leukemia, in which case your own stem cells just give you back your same problems.

You seem to think that your own stem cells are a cure-all for everything under the sun, and that only proves how ignorant you truly are.

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Friday, December 17, 2010 12:12 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


That's a hell of a leap there kiki, I'm gonna have to defend rap here. He didn't claim it would solve everything, just that our own stem cells are probably better for us than those harvested from an embryo (which is kinda repulsive). You wanna get them from umbilical cords and the like, that's shiny but the idea of creating and destroying embryos to harvest these cells just seems wrong. Also, do we have any real proof that embryonic stem cells will cure these illness better than other stem cells (or at all for that matter)?

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Friday, December 17, 2010 1:32 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Happy, right on.

Not to mention there is a whole body of research on regeneration that suggests we don't even have to use stem cells at all. But somehow, this line of research has never been pursued very rigorously.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Friday, December 17, 2010 3:29 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Unless of course you have a genetic predisposition to an illness like, for example, Parkinson's or leukemia, in which case your own stem cells just give you back your same problems.

You seem to think that your own stem cells are a cure-all for everything under the sun, and that only proves how ignorant you truly are.



It's funny to hear you speak of such things, as if YOU know, more than those doing the cutting edge work in this field.

The story which started this thread pretty much disproves your comments. The best hope, the least expensive and easiest to obtain are stem cells from each individual. This is great news. Why are you getting into a pissing match over that which is only a positive. ?

Do you even THINK before you post ?


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, December 17, 2010 3:45 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

I have just had someone tell me about an old, decrepit, dying dog that was injected with its own stem cells. Its physical ills are reputed to have reversed themselves and the dog has taken on a more youthful demeanor.

Is this just one of those hoax rumors, or is this an actual thing? Does anyone know?



Eat some placenta, since stem cells are good for you.


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Friday, December 17, 2010 4:49 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Unless of course you have a genetic predisposition to an illness like, for example, Parkinson's or leukemia, in which case your own stem cells just give you back your same problems.

You seem to think that your own stem cells are a cure-all for everything under the sun, and that only proves how ignorant you truly are.



It's funny to hear you speak of such things, as if YOU know, more than those doing the cutting edge work in this field.

The story which started this thread pretty much disproves your comments. The best hope, the least expensive and easiest to obtain are stem cells from each individual. This is great news. Why are you getting into a pissing match over that which is only a positive. ?

Do you even THINK before you post ?


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "




Hello,

The stem cells recently used in a series of procedures to cure a man's cancer and his HIV were not his own stem cells. They were from a donor. No word yet on whom the stem cells were from, only from whom they weren't. i.e. They weren't his own.

So 1kiki is quite correct.

In any event, it seems quite immaterial whether the stem cells are from one's self, an adult, a child, or an embryo. As long as they have the correct traits, it seems they can provide great boons.

--Anthony



Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Friday, December 17, 2010 5:07 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

I have just had someone tell me about an old, decrepit, dying dog that was injected with its own stem cells. Its physical ills are reputed to have reversed themselves and the dog has taken on a more youthful demeanor.



This is what I was referring to, not the man with cancer/ HIV.

The point I was trying to make is that adult stem cells, whether from the host or another adult, have proven to be more effective than those from embryos.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, December 17, 2010 5:10 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

I have just had someone tell me about an old, decrepit, dying dog that was injected with its own stem cells. Its physical ills are reputed to have reversed themselves and the dog has taken on a more youthful demeanor.



This is what I was referring to, not the man with cancer/ HIV.

The point I was trying to make is that adult stem cells, whether from the host or another adult, have proven to be more effective than those from embryos.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "




Hello,

I hope that will be so, for the sake of convenience. However, I have not seen an efficacy study comparing the two.

Have you?

--Anthony



Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Friday, December 17, 2010 5:13 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Not ' a study', but heard that scores of positive results from treatments from adult stem cells vs the few ( if any ) positive results from embryonic stem cell treatments.


Was paying more attention to this when the debate was hot. Kinda short on time to deal w/ it now.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, December 17, 2010 5:43 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Ah, thanks for the correction. Substitute 'our own' for 'not from embryo harvesting' in my previous statement and I'll stand by it

Still, there's no reason for anyone to be an ass. Rappy actually had something positive to say and then was attacked. Considering how often some of these folks complain about him, I'd think they would want to reward more positive behavior to encourage it, but that would require foresight and a bit of humility.

I respectfully disagree on it not mattering where they are from, though I confess I need to do a bit more research in this area. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when harvesting embryonic stem cells, don't they create an embryo (as in sperm + egg which becomes an unborn child) let it grow a bit and then kill it and extract the cells? It sounds so barbaric, I hope I've got this one wrong.

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Friday, December 17, 2010 5:52 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Ah, thanks for the correction. Substitute 'our own' for 'not from embryo harvesting' in my previous statement and I'll stand by it

Still, there's no reason for anyone to be an ass. Rappy actually had something positive to say and then was attacked. Considering how often some of these folks complain about him, I'd think they would want to reward more positive behavior to encourage it, but that would require foresight and a bit of humility.

I respectfully disagree on it not mattering where they are from, though I confess I need to do a bit more research in this area. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when harvesting embryonic stem cells, don't they create an embryo (as in sperm + egg which becomes an unborn child) let it grow a bit and then kill it and extract the cells? It sounds so barbaric, I hope I've got this one wrong.




Hello,

Embryo stem cells are typically harvested from embryos which are already slated for destruction.

This is morally equivalent to harvesting tissues from a person who is going to die, except that in this case the person was never born.

Some people object to embryonic stem cell harvesting because they imagine embryos being specifically created for the purpose of harvesting.

As far as I know, there is still such a surpassing glut of embryos slated for destruction in this country, that such specific embryo creation is not necessary.

--Anthony


Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Friday, December 17, 2010 6:25 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Ah, I see. So the question is, is it okay to kill what's going to die soon anyway and harvest it's parts. I still don't like it, but at least they aren't creating life with intent of destroying it. I understand some people don't consider it 'alive' until it is born or close enough to it, but terminating a life is kind of a big deal to me, and I'd much rather cautiously (and perhaps unrealistically) assume it to be alive from zygote than potentially condone the killing of innocent children.

This is also why I don't like abortion, but before anyone accuses my of trying to control a woman's body, not liking something is not the same thing as forcing you not to do it! I don't envy anyone who has to make that kind of decision and those that do probably deserve our sympathy, not our scorn.

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Friday, December 17, 2010 8:59 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
That's a hell of a leap there kiki, I'm gonna have to defend rap here. He didn't claim it would solve everything, just that our own stem cells are probably better for us than those harvested from an embryo (which is kinda repulsive). You wanna get them from umbilical cords and the like, that's shiny but the idea of creating and destroying embryos to harvest these cells just seems wrong. Also, do we have any real proof that embryonic stem cells will cure these illness better than other stem cells (or at all for that matter)?



Well, we have more proof of that than you do that there have ever been programs dedicated to "creating and destroying embryos to harvest these cells". That's just a purely made-up, completely fictional attempt by the right to demagogue the issue. Please don't fall for such falsehoods.

This Space For Rent!

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Friday, December 17, 2010 9:08 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Ah, I see. So the question is, is it okay to kill what's going to die soon anyway and harvest it's parts. I still don't like it, but at least they aren't creating life with intent of destroying it. I understand some people don't consider it 'alive' until it is born or close enough to it, but terminating a life is kind of a big deal to me, and I'd much rather cautiously (and perhaps unrealistically) assume it to be alive from zygote than potentially condone the killing of innocent children.

This is also why I don't like abortion, but before anyone accuses my of trying to control a woman's body, not liking something is not the same thing as forcing you not to do it! I don't envy anyone who has to make that kind of decision and those that do probably deserve our sympathy, not our scorn.



Okay, you're still not getting a clear picture of this process. These ARE NOT "living" embryos - these are embryos that are NEVER going to become human beings. They are completely "unviable", and are with 100% certainty going to be thrown out, discarded, destroyed.

You're not "killing what's going to die anyway". You're giving something that was never going to really be "alive" a chance to positively impact a life, or a whole slew of lives.

I think you have a very skewed view of the process, in which you envision evil mad scientists "creating" embryos in their lairs and then harvesting them while cackling evilly about doing so. These "embryos" are typically the product of unsuccessful in-vitro fertility attempts. It's heartbreaking enough to have to tell a couple who really wants a child (and has exhausted other means, and often their own bank accounts, in their efforts) that you've failed to live up to their hopes. More heartbreaking still is to break the news that, because of a capricious federal statute, you have no choice but to flush the remnants of their hopes down the toilet, instead of using those cells to help cure horrific diseases.

This Space For Rent!

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Friday, December 17, 2010 9:11 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


ETA: Happy, sorry if I sounded angry or snapped in my responses to you. These are issues I feel strongly about, for my own personal reasons, and I've grown weary of hearing people put up the same tired, debunked arguments out of ignorance or fear.

This Space For Rent!

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Friday, December 17, 2010 9:55 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


That's okay, I just had a nap and am feeling pretty shiny. I had a feeling I wasn't aware of the entire process. I never envisioned the cackling mad scientist, but I do still worry that if these were NOT a relatively abundant resource, then someone would make 'em to kill 'em and harvest 'em. I don't have any problems with them coming from failed in-vitro attempts, and agree with you that it would be great if these unsuccessful lives were able to save another life. I still worry about the potential for abuse (lying so they can harvest or whatnot) but I recognize that as irrational, at least so long as the resource is abundant.

I think you've just saved me a lot of time and research, but I'll do some more digging on my own at some point. Been a while since I looked at stem cell research but I remember it being hard to understand (in high school), I'm probably a mite better at those things now that I've been through some college labs.

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