REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Wanna visit the Great Pyramids? The Sphinx ?

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Thursday, September 1, 2011 04:41
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Friday, August 26, 2011 11:55 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


You'd better hurry up then...



Quote:


Abd Al-Munim A-Shahhat, a spokesman for the Salafi group Dawa, has said that Egypt’s world-renowned pharaonic archaeology — its pyramids, Sphinx and other monuments covered with un-Islamic imagery — should also be hidden from the public eye.

“The pharaonic culture is a rotten culture,” A-Shahhat told Asharq Al-Awsat, saying the faces of ancient statues “should be covered with wax, since they are religiously forbidden.” He likened the Egyptian relics to the idols, which circled the walls of Makkah in pre-Islamic times. The challenges to the tourism industry in post-revolutionary Egypt have led to the establishment of the Coalition to Support Tourism, whose members also met with Al-Katatny.

http://arabnews.com/middleeast/article493760.ece?comments=all





Ahhh! Smells like Arab Spring !




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, August 26, 2011 12:08 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

As little certainty as the future holds, I will venture this far.

It will never happen.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Friday, August 26, 2011 12:12 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!





You were saying ?





" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, August 26, 2011 12:13 PM

DREAMTROVE


I suspect that the wahabist dawa has precious little influence in Egypt.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, August 26, 2011 12:18 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"You were saying?"

Hello,

As little certainty as the future holds, I will venture this far.

It will never happen.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Friday, August 26, 2011 12:58 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
“The pharaonic culture is a rotten culture,” A-Shahhat told Asharq Al-Awsat


...Right, because a few thousand years of peace and prosperity is a sure sign of rot. I mean, I know that was way back when it actually was the pharaonic culture, and memories are short, but dude.
*sigh* I would like to see the great monuments someday. Never been able to afford the trip, but I sure hope they are protected and preserved so that when I have the finances, I can go.


What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Friday, August 26, 2011 1:27 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


It always annoys me when folks decide they have to destroy or cover up works that offend their religious sensibilities.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, August 26, 2011 1:44 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Actually, the wax idea might not be so bad. I mean, wouldn't it preserve fairly well, from any more erosion and pollution ?

Not exactly what these guys had in mind, obviously.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, August 26, 2011 2:29 PM

FREMDFIRMA



As if we have any room to talk....

Justice Department covers partially nude statues
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/01/29/statues.htm
Quote:

The department spent $8,000 on blue drapes that hide the two giant, aluminum art deco statues, said spokesman Shane Hix. For aesthetic reasons, he said, the drapes were occasionally hung in front of the statues before formal events. The department used to rent the drapes, but has now purchased them and left them hanging.

If you had any sense at all Rappy, you'd realize the greater threat of religious law comes from the very sumbitches you support, who are in truth cut from the very same cloth as the goddamned taliban, the only real DIFFERENCE is which VERSION of that vile and horrific religion they follow, cause it's not even a different one, just a slightly different aspect of the same one!

And yet both sets of dumb shits are willing to kill each other, and anyone else, over it.

I wonder though, if things might have taken a different historical path if Abrahams response had been "You want me to do WHAT ? Fuck You!"...

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, August 26, 2011 2:41 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



I find it pathetic and laughable that you'd even attempt to compare the temporary covering of a couple of nondescript statues, during press conferences, to the idea of permanently covering up such iconic architectural monuments of human achievement, such as the Sphinx and the Great Pyramids.

Your statement was Rosie O'Donnell stupid.






" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, August 26, 2011 2:54 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Does the covering up of art for puritanical reasons now have a minimum threshold before we may be dismayed?

Is this minimum threshold measured in age or size?

And does a theoretical covering trump a real covering?

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Friday, August 26, 2011 3:00 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!




Mole Hill




Mountain.



If you can't tell the difference, I can't help you.


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Friday, August 26, 2011 3:06 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I concede to your wisdom and agree, Mr. Raptor.

Becoming alarmed because someone is musing about covering monuments with wax is indeed making a mountain out of a molehill.

Especially when there are other people in the world who are actually covering and/or destroying objects in the name of religious convention and propriety.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Friday, August 26, 2011 3:09 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Especially when there are other people in the world who are actually covering and/or destroying objects in the name of religious convention and propriety.

--Anthony



Well, there's ONE group into destroying objects of significant artistic and religious importance to human history. Those being the Muslims.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, August 26, 2011 3:12 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I must disagree.

There is only one demographic for that, and Dennis Leary sang it best.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Friday, August 26, 2011 3:23 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I must disagree.

There is only one demographic for that, and Dennis Leary sang it best.

--Anthony



Well, they are that, of course.


Saw Dennis Leary perform that song live, many years ago. Hi-larious!


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, August 26, 2011 3:30 PM

PHOENIXSHIP


I bet some of those meatheads might actually want to do it, but... the overwhelming greed of the human animal and the money earned from tourism will convince them to "spare" the illegitimate pharoahs and hold their noses while they take our money!

"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"

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Friday, August 26, 2011 3:38 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Phoenixship:
I bet some of those meatheads might actually want to do it, but... the overwhelming greed of the human animal and the money earned from tourism will convince them to "spare" the illegitimate pharoahs and hold their noses while they take our money!

"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"




Did ya read the link posted ? They also want to ban alcohol and bathing suits at all beach resorts.

( to be honest, I had figured they already had banned them... )

Quote:

CAIRO: Sunbathing in Alexandria may soon be a thing of the past, at least if some Egyptian politicians have their way.

Egypt’s tourism industry has suffered a severe blow since the outburst of anti-regime demonstrations in January. But that did not stop the Freedom and Justice Party, the political wing of the Muslim Brotherhood, from demanding stricter regulations over what tourists can do and wear while visiting the country. The party is urging officials to ban skimpy swimwear and the consumption of alcohol on Egyptian streets.

“Beach tourism must take the values and norms of our society into account,” Muhammad Saad Al-Katatny, secretary-general of Freedom and Justice, told Egyptian tourism officials. “We must place regulations on tourists wishing to visit Egypt, which we will announce in advance.”




No booze or bikinis on the beach ? Yeah, that'll draw a crowd.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, August 26, 2011 7:04 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

( to be honest, I had figured they already had banned them... )



Well, at least you're man enough to admit when you don't know what the hell you're talking about, eh?



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Friday, August 26, 2011 7:08 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Especially when there are other people in the world who are actually covering and/or destroying objects in the name of religious convention and propriety.

--Anthony



Well, there's ONE group into destroying objects of significant artistic and religious importance to human history. Those being the Muslims.




As usual, you're wrong in assuming it's JUST "Muslims" doing this. Unless you now think that Christians are Muslims.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, August 26, 2011 7:14 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

As if we have any room to talk....

Justice Department covers partially nude statues
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/01/29/statues.htm
Quote:

The department spent $8,000 on blue drapes that hide the two giant, aluminum art deco statues, said spokesman Shane Hix. For aesthetic reasons, he said, the drapes were occasionally hung in front of the statues before formal events. The department used to rent the drapes, but has now purchased them and left them hanging.

If you had any sense at all Rappy, you'd realize the greater threat of religious law comes from the very sumbitches you support, who are in truth cut from the very same cloth as the goddamned taliban, the only real DIFFERENCE is which VERSION of that vile and horrific religion they follow, cause it's not even a different one, just a slightly different aspect of the same one!

And yet both sets of dumb shits are willing to kill each other, and anyone else, over it.

I wonder though, if things might have taken a different historical path if Abrahams response had been "You want me to do WHAT ? Fuck You!"...

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.





Dang... you kinda stole my surprise.


And yes, ponder the irony of Ashcroft wanting to make sure that Justice and Law were blinded, covered up, and hidden from the public (and NOT just during press conferences, but constantly for over three years!) during the Bush administration.

Oh, and they covered up a couple of statues, too. :)

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, August 26, 2011 7:36 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

( to be honest, I had figured they already had banned them... )



Well, at least you're man enough to admit when you don't know what the hell you're talking about, eh?





Actually, I wasn't talking about it in the first place. But you are correct, I'm man enough. Where as you ? Not so much.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, August 28, 2011 8:21 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Covering up courthouse statues seems unnecessary and a bit childish and it isn't something I would do. But I think waxing the face of the sphynx would be even sillier because it will lose them money, no one wants to pay good money to see something that is covered up. Would that hurt that sphynx to do that? Or would it not have longterm dammaging effects, just curious, not supporting it or anything.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, August 29, 2011 2:38 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
You'd better hurry up then...



Quote:


Abd Al-Munim A-Shahhat, a spokesman for the Salafi group Dawa, has said that Egypt’s world-renowned pharaonic archaeology — its pyramids, Sphinx and other monuments covered with un-Islamic imagery — should also be hidden from the public eye.

“The pharaonic culture is a rotten culture,” A-Shahhat told Asharq Al-Awsat, saying the faces of ancient statues “should be covered with wax, since they are religiously forbidden.” He likened the Egyptian relics to the idols, which circled the walls of Makkah in pre-Islamic times. The challenges to the tourism industry in post-revolutionary Egypt have led to the establishment of the Coalition to Support Tourism, whose members also met with Al-Katatny.

http://arabnews.com/middleeast/article493760.ece?comments=all



Ahhh! Smells like Arab Spring !



This is one purpose of the false-flag CIA "revolutions" by the stinking Jew World Odor, to install "Islamic Fundamentalism" to destroy civilized secular nations in the Mid East to steal their wealth.

Wahabi "muslims" like the Saudi royals, Iraqi Kurds and Bin Ladens are Khazar (Turkish) jews.
http://www.rense.com/general30/balias.htm

Quote:


General Albert Pike speaks:

"The First World War must be brought about in order to permit the Illuminati to overthrow the power of the Czars in Russia and of making that country a fortress of atheistic Communism. The divergences caused by the "agentur" (agents) of the Illuminati between the British and Germanic Empires will be used to foment this war. At the end of the war, Communism will be built and used in order to destroy the other governments and in order to weaken the religions."

"The Second World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences between the Fascists and the political Zionists. This war must be brought about so that Nazism is destroyed and that the political Zionism be strong enough to institute a sovereign state of Israel in Palestine. During the Second World War, International Communism must become strong enough in order to balance Christendom, which would be then restrained and held in check until the time when we would need it for the final social cataclysm."

"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."

by General Albert Pike, British agent in the US Civil War and jewish pope of Freemasonry, letter to Giuseppe Mazzini, founder of the Mafia in Italy, in 1871

http://geraldcelentechannel.blogspot.com/2010/07/albert-pike-letter-to
-mazzini.html





Quote:


General Albert Pike speaks:

"There is in nature a one most potent force, by means whereof a single man, who could posses himself of it, and should know how to direct it, could revolutionize and change the face of the world. It is a universal agent, whose supreme law is equilibrium; and whereby, if science can but learn how to control it, it can be possible to change the order of the seasons, to produce in night the phenomenon of day, to send a thought in an instant around the world, to heal or slay at a distance, to give our words universal success, and made them reverberate everywhere. The Gnostics held that it was adorned in the secret rites of the Sabbat or the Temple, under the hieroglyphic figure of the Baphomet or the hermaphroditic goat of Mendes."
-Pike, Morals and Dogma, page 734

"The true name of Satan is, the Kallaists say, is that of Yahweh reversed; for Satan is not a black god, but the negation of God. The Devil is the personification of Atheism and Idoltry. For the Initiates, this is not a Person, but a Force, created for good; but which may serve for evil. It is the instrument for Liberty or Free Will. They represent this Force, which presides over the physical generation, under the mythological and horned form of the God Pan; hence came the he-goat of the Sabbat, brother of the Ancient Serpant, and the Light-Bearer, or Phosphor of which the poets have made the false Lucifer of the legend."
-General Albert Pike, [url= http://www.srmason-sj.org] and Dogma of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry[/color][/url], page 102

"The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the 19th Degree, the Apotheosis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!"
-Pike, Morals and Dogma, page 321

"All religions issued from the Kabalah and return to it: everything scientific and grand in the dreams of the illuminati is borrow from the Kabalah; all the Masonic associations owe to it their Secrets and Symbols. The Kabalah alone consecrates the allegiance of the Universal Reason and Devine Word. The Bible, with all the allegories it contains, expresses, in an incomplete and veiled manner only, the religious science of the Hebrews. Thus was a second Bible born, unknown to, or rather uncomprehended by, the Christians; a collection, they say, of monstrous absurdities; a monument, the adept says, wherein everything that the genius of philosophy and that of religion have ever formed or imagined of the sublime; a treasure surrounded by thorns; a diamond concelaed in a rough dark stone. One is filled with admiration, on penetrating into the Sancuary of the Kabalah, at seeing doctrine so logical, so simple, and at the same time so absolute. The Absolute Deity, with the Kabalists, has no name. The terms applied to Him are the Most Simple Light. For then there was no space or vacant place, but all was infinite Light."
-Pike, Morals and Dogma, page 744-5

http://nationalheritagemuseum.typepad.com/library_and_archives/albert-
pike
/

Albert Pike Museum at House of the Jewish Temple, Washington DC
http://scottishrite.org/headquarters/museums/

History of Baphomet and Freemasons
http://blog.templarhistory.com/2010/04/the-baphomet-and-the-freemasons/

"Freemasons have long been accused of Satanic practices as seen in the illustration of the Baphomet from Leo Taxil's The Mysteries of Freemasonry, 1897. Source: Archives of the Supreme Council, S.J., 33°"
-Scottish Rite Journal, I Was Called a Satanist Today, Feb 2002
http://www.srmason-sj.org/web/journal-files/Issues/Feb02/moss.htm


Freemasonic ceremony




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Monday, August 29, 2011 6:35 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Covering up courthouse statues seems unnecessary and a bit childish.
Ditto. I think the "modesty" covering up is silly, too, but not surprising given our Puritanical background. At least they weren't destroyed.

I wish the photo of the Bamyan Buddha hadn't been put up. First, because it hurts me to be reminded. Second, because Al Qaeda are a powerful bunch of fanatics, whereas I believe there would be major outcry if someone were to actually TRY to cover up the Sphinx or other major tourist attractions. The Buddha was a tourist attraction, admittedly, but how many tourists came to Afghanistan to see it (or even knew it existed?). Third, because covering up is not destroying.

Adorable mole, tho'.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, August 29, 2011 12:49 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I heard about that Niki, it was a while ago though. How big was it? Did they destroy it completely or just knock it over? If someone doesn't like something they don't have to hang out around it.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 9:02 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I've bored everyone with this before, but you DID ask, Riona! ;o) It was the Taliban, and yes, some time back--early 2001. The Bamyan Buddha was built in the 4th-5th century and was 180 feet high, carved out of a sandstone mountainside by the buddhist monks. At that time, Bamyan (which is located on the famous "Silk Road") was a thriving center for religion, philosophy, and Indian art. It was a Buddhist religious site from the 2nd century up to the time of the Islamic invasion in the 9th century. Ghengis Kahn came long and chopped off the face, and weather took most of his leg,s but the rest had endured pretty well through the centuries.


Now it looks like this:


I visited it when we lived in Afghanistan, walked the caves where the monks hid out from good old Ghentis, and stood on the flat top of the head. There were beautifully-colored frescoes everywhere, modeled in mud mixed with straw, coated with stucco and exquisitely painted in his niche, but weather had destroyed most of them. From the top was a gorgeous view of the entire Bamyan Valley (one of the few GREEN places in Afghanistan at the time).


You can get a feel for his size when you see it in perspective to the valley:


It was very special to me, and when they showed it being blown up on TV, I almost fell over, then cried for a couple of days. It's something I will never forget. It's one of the (many, and much more important) reasons I so despise the Taliban and fanatics in general.

The paintings in the caves still survive, and are of great historic value. Scientists have investigated the materials used on the 7th century wall paintings, and it is believed that they are the oldest known surviving examples of oil painting, possibly predating oil painting in Europe by as much as six centuries.

There was a second, smaller statue they also destroyed. In 2008, they discovered a huge statue of buddha reclining in Bamyan, and are still seeking the 1000-foot SLEEPING buddha mentioned in many reports of that area (can't find a photo of the newly-discovered one). So all is not lost, and there is a movement to restore the big guy, but I don't think it'll come to anything. Some want to restore the big guy via anastylosis, where original elements are combined with modern material (they've kept all the pieces) . UNESCO and the International Council on Monuments and Sites (ICOMOS) have put up money to do it and as of July 2011 it was being worked on, but many think the money would be better spent providing electricity and other things to a country which, when we were there, was practically just coming out of the stone age. Besides, you can't replace things like that, and most Afghans feel the empty niches should be left as monuments to the fanaticism of the Taliban.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 2:06 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Thank you Niki, that was interesting. Sometimes I think that people made huge monuments for the purpose of being remembered later, rather than to honor their dead or for worship purposes as most archaeologists think. Mt. Rushmore for instance, we didn't make it to worship or as a tomb for those pictured, but in thousands of years future archaeologists could think that.

Interesting that you should mention the Khan. I've become quite interested in him of late, but he was a real ruthless rutter when it came to conquering, a mean snot he was, glad they hid from him and made those amazing paintings.

I think that every person has good points and bad points, the people in power get to display both sides of themselves in public view though, so we know more about them. And the sad truth is that power tends to bring out the bad side of us.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 6:50 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
many think the money would be better spent providing electricity and other things to a country which, when we were there, was practically just coming out of the stone age. Besides, you can't replace things like that, and most Afghans feel the empty niches should be left as monuments to the fanaticism of the Taliban.


Indeed.
I rather think Budda would have approved of that attitude, he never did like the notion of such icons in the first place and found such veneration appalling when folks spent effort on it instead of spreading what he was trying to teach.

Oh, and Riona, you should also check out Tamerlane, man, that was one nasty piece of work, he was.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 12:01 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Wow Niki, you got to actually see the Giant Buddha. How amazing. I have a friend who travelled there in thr 70's and showed me photos recently. Like you, she was devestated when they were destroyed.

It's nothing new. Religious fanatics despise all over religions and it has been rife through history and it wouldn't be the first time in Epyptian history. The Pharoah Akhenaten had his face removed from all iconography depicting him because of religious reasons. The practise, known as iconoclasm, has a long and illustrious history and is not limited to one religion. From wiki

* In Judaism, King Hezekiah purged Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem and the Land of Israel of figures, including the Nehushtan, as recorded in the Second Book of Kings. His reforms were reversed in the reign of his son Manasseh.
* A Midrash included in Genesis Rabba attributes a major act of iconoclasm to Abraham. This is not attested in the Biblical account of the Partriarch's life, but is an important aspect of Abraham's character in later Jewish tradition.
* The Roman Empire's polytheist state religion's images were destroyed during the process of Christianisation.
* In the world of Islam, there have been various periods of iconoclasm against images of other religions (e.g., Christianity, Buddhism,[2] etc.) and those produced within Islam.
* Byzantine iconoclasm in the Eastern Orthodox Church, of its own religious imagery.
* The Beeldenstorm in Europe during the Protestant Reformation and the religious conflicts following, with Protestants destroying traditional (by then considered Catholic imagery) or sometimes Protestant imagery.
* Most of the moai of Easter Island were toppled during the 18th century in the iconoclasm of civil wars.
* During the French Revolution, people widely destroyed religious and monarchical imagery.
* During and after the Russian Revolution, there was widespread destruction of religious and secular imagery.
* During and after the Communist overthrow of the Chinese monarchy, as well as during the later Cultural Revolution, there was widespread destruction of religious and secular imagery in China, including in Tibet.
* In the Roman Catholic Church after the Second Vatican Council, much of its traditional imagery, art, and architecture was discarded.[citation needed]
* Statues of Stalin, from as early as 1956 in Budapest, continuing sporadically through the fall of Communism and into the present day.[3]
* Statues of Lenin and Felix Dzerzhinsky in formerly-communist Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union.
* The Taliban's destruction of two ancient statues of Buddha at Bamyan in Afghanistan.

These of course dont account for the destruction caused by simple plundering of religious and cultural icons, and it is worth noting that we don't seem to mind a bit of tomb raiding if there is treasure to be had, and I include peeps such as Howard Carter and the Earl of Elgin.

So the practise sucks, but its not new and its not an especially Muslim feature.

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 2:10 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Wow Niki, you got to actually see the Giant Buddha. How amazing. I have a friend who travelled there in thr 70's and showed me photos recently. Like you, she was devestated when they were destroyed.

It's nothing new. Religious fanatics despise all over religions and it has been rife through history and it wouldn't be the first time in Epyptian history. The Pharoah Akhenaten had his face removed from all iconography depicting him because of religious reasons. The practise, known as iconoclasm, has a long and illustrious history and is not limited to one religion. From wiki

* In Judaism, King Hezekiah purged Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem and the Land of Israel of figures, including the Nehushtan, as recorded in the Second Book of Kings. His reforms were reversed in the reign of his son Manasseh.
* A Midrash included in Genesis Rabba attributes a major act of iconoclasm to Abraham. This is not attested in the Biblical account of the Partriarch's life, but is an important aspect of Abraham's character in later Jewish tradition.
* The Roman Empire's polytheist state religion's images were destroyed during the process of Christianisation.
* In the world of Islam, there have been various periods of iconoclasm against images of other religions (e.g., Christianity, Buddhism,[2] etc.) and those produced within Islam.
* Byzantine iconoclasm in the Eastern Orthodox Church, of its own religious imagery.
* The Beeldenstorm in Europe during the Protestant Reformation and the religious conflicts following, with Protestants destroying traditional (by then considered Catholic imagery) or sometimes Protestant imagery.
* Most of the moai of Easter Island were toppled during the 18th century in the iconoclasm of civil wars.
* During the French Revolution, people widely destroyed religious and monarchical imagery.
* During and after the Russian Revolution, there was widespread destruction of religious and secular imagery.
* During and after the Communist overthrow of the Chinese monarchy, as well as during the later Cultural Revolution, there was widespread destruction of religious and secular imagery in China, including in Tibet.
* In the Roman Catholic Church after the Second Vatican Council, much of its traditional imagery, art, and architecture was discarded.[citation needed]
* Statues of Stalin, from as early as 1956 in Budapest, continuing sporadically through the fall of Communism and into the present day.[3]
* Statues of Lenin and Felix Dzerzhinsky in formerly-communist Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union.
* The Taliban's destruction of two ancient statues of Buddha at Bamyan in Afghanistan.

These of course dont account for the destruction caused by simple plundering of religious and cultural icons, and it is worth noting that we don't seem to mind a bit of tomb raiding if there is treasure to be had, and I include peeps such as Howard Carter and the Earl of Elgin.

So the practise sucks, but its not new and its not an especially Muslim feature.




Not to mention religious zealots destroying controversial artworks merely because they are offended by such material.

Only an idiot would try to claim that there's only ONE religion doing such things.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 2:54 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:


Not to mention religious zealots destroying controversial artworks merely because they are offended by such material.

Only an idiot would try to claim that there's only ONE religion doing such things.



In our life time ? Only 1 religion has done that.

Only an idiot would deny that fact.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 3:16 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Riona, good old Ghengis was about as nasty as they come, and so were his progeny. There's a hill called the "Screaming City" (Shahr-E-Gholgola) on the way to Bamiyan where he slaughtered living thing in the city,


...and of course the "Red City" (Shahr-i-Zahak) only 11 miles from Bamiyan. It IS red because of the clay, but got the name for blood. Eight hundred feet above the entrance to the Bamiyan Valley, once home to 3,000 people and the primary defense for the valley during 12th and 13th centuries. It's a thousand feet up, and they had to carry food, water, and fuel up those cliffs every day! In 1221 it was attack by the grandson of Genghis Kahn. The fort held and the grandson was killed. In revenge Genghis Khan himself attacked the valley and destroyed everything including the irrigation systems. The Red City was never rebuilt. What's left of it still stands only because of the dryness of the desert around it.




It wasn't a "gentle" area, nor is it now, obviously. Whatever else can be said of current times, they are nothing compared to those days. There are atrocities still being committed in areas of the world, but nothing on the scale Ghengis, Tamur-the-Lame (Tamerlane, or Timur) or any number of those guys did throughout the Middle East.

On the other hand, the current Governor of Bamiyan, Habiba Sarabi (Afghanistan's first and only female governor) is very forward thinking; she's working to make Bamiyan a tourist attraction again, and they SAY it is one of, if not THE, safest place in Afghanistan now.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, September 1, 2011 4:15 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:


Not to mention religious zealots destroying controversial artworks merely because they are offended by such material.

Only an idiot would try to claim that there's only ONE religion doing such things.



In our life time ? Only 1 religion has done that.

Only an idiot would deny that fact.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "



"In our life time ?"

Were you born yesterday, then?

Quote:

Civitas, a lobby group that says it aims to re-Christianize France, launched an online petition and mobilised other fundamentalist groups. The staunchly conservative archbishop of Vaucluse, Jean-Pierre Cattenoz, called Piss Christ "odious" and said he wanted this "trash" taken off the gallery walls. Last week the gallery complained of "extremist harassment" by fundamentalist Christian groups who wanted the work banned in France.

Lambert, one of France's best known art dealers, complained he was being "persecuted" by extremists who had sent him tens of thousands of complaint emails and bombarded the museum with spam. He likened the atmosphere to "a return to the middle ages".

On Saturday, around 1,000 Christian protesters marched through Avignon to the gallery. The protest group included a regional councillor for the extreme-right Front National, which recently scored well in the Vaucluse area in local elections. The gallery immediately stepped up security, putting plexiglass in front of the photograph and assigning two gallery guards to stand in front of it.

But on Palm Sunday morning, four people in sunglasses aged between 18 and 25 entered the exhibition just after it opened at 11am. One took a hammer out of his sock and threatened the guards with it. A guard grabbed another man around the waist but within seconds the group managed to take a hammer to the plexiglass screen and slash the photograph with another sharp object, thought to be a screwdriver or ice-pick. They also smashed another work, which showed the hands of a meditating nun.

The gallery director, Eric Mézil, said it would reopen with the destroyed works on show "so people can see what barbarians can do". He said there had been a kind of "inquisition" against the art work.



http://atheism.about.com/b/2011/04/30/barbaric-christians-destroy-art-
in-avignon.htm


Seems barbarians come in every religion. Even Christianity.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 4:41 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Mmmmm, does appear fundamentalism isn't relegated to Muslims, doesn't it?
Quote:

Usually it's extremist Muslims who make the news for violence against infidels who dare insult their religion, but we shouldn't imagine that Christians aren't equally capable of violence themselves. In Avignon, France, some Catholic extremists used hammers to destroy art that offended them because it was "blasphemous." Apparently, it's just not permissible for anyone, anywhere, to publicly display anything that any Catholics regard as blasphemous. Who knew?
Quote:

The gallery director, Eric Mézil, said it would reopen with the destroyed works on show "so people can see what barbarians can do". He said there had been a kind of "inquisition" against the art work.
Three cheers for Eric Mézil -- both for the fact that he refuses to be intimated by these Christian thugs and for the fact that he will display the fruit of their religious extremism. A lesser man might have removed the artwork earlier or might have hidden it away after it was attacked; Mézil, however, insists on displaying to all the world what happens when religious extremists are allowed to have their way.

And why did these Christians suddenly start acting violently? Catholic leaders themselves have given tacit approval to the violence. Alan Escada, secretary general of "Civitas," has refused to condemn the act. He says he doesn't "support" it either, but when you refuse to condemn acts of violence you are implicitly saying that violence is acceptable.

Political leaders have also done things that would seem to encourage religious violence on the part of Christians. The anti-art movement in France started after President Nicolas Sarkozy's ruling UMP party held a "debate" on religious and secularism in France. Sarkozy has also increased his use of divisive, anti-Muslim rhetoric as the next presidential elections approach.
Quote:

Asked by the daily Libération why the Piss Christ protest had happened now, Mézil pointed to Sarkozy's speech in March lauding "the Christian heritage of France" at Puy-en-Velay, where the first Crusades were preached.

He said: "Clearly we saw in Saturday's demonstration that a Catholic fringe wanted to take the president at his word, with extremely violent appeals." He said there was a climate of tension, with protesters insulting museum staff of north African origin. One guard said he heard: "I'm going to pour donkey piss on the Qur'an." An email to the museum talked about "plunging the diary of Anne Frank in urine".

When religious believers use violence to get their way, they reveal that while they may have been preaching the value of civility, in reality all they have been seeking is the to replace civilization with their own brand of religious barbarism.

Hear hear!

Apparently our own fundamentalists were "pissed" about the photo long ago, too:
Quote:

The violent slashing of the picture, and another Serrano photograph of a meditating nun, has plunged secular France into soul-searching about Christian fundamentalism and Nicolas Sarkozy's use of religious populism in his bid for re-election next year.

It also marks a return to an old standoff between Serrano and the religious right that dates back more than 20 years, to Reagan-era Republicanism in the US.

In 1989, rightwing Christian senators' criticism of Piss Christ led to a heated US debate on public arts funding. Republican Jesse Helms told the senate Serrano was "not an artist. He's a jerk."

Serrano defended his photograph as a criticism of the "billion-dollar Christ-for-profit industry" and a "condemnation of those who abuse the teachings of Christ for their own ignoble ends".
....
The photograph had been shown in France several times without incident. For four months, it has hung in the exhibition.... http://www.nachtkabarett.com/babalon/topic/10005--Christian-zealots-in
-France-destroy-Piss-Christ-
guesses how many death threats he's gotten? And why the hell a photo of the hands of a meditating nun??

Religious extremists...bah!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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