REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

"Deficit fever"; disaster in the making?

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Friday, September 2, 2011 01:01
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Tuesday, August 30, 2011 9:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Just as Hurricane Irene was slamming the East Coast, the political rhetoric was approaching category 5 strength in other parts of the country.

Republican presidential candidate Michele Bachmann joked at a campaign event in Florida that the disaster was a sign from God that federal spending was out of control.

But there's a serious side to the congresswoman's comments. Budget-cutting fever could have a serious impact on how Washington responds to current and future disasters.

One of the tea party favorites, GOP contender Ron Paul, said Friday that he would eliminate the Federal Emergency Management Agency. The Texas Republican congressman said FEMA's primary function is to bail out homeowners living in risky places such as earthquake or flood zones.

"This idea that the world comes to an end if you don't have somebody at the federal level taking care of you, I mean, it's a natural problem. It's wind. It's a storm," Paul said of Irene. He would have the states handle their own disaster relief.

After last week's earthquake near the nation's capital, House Majority Leader Eric Cantor, R-Virginia, repeated his long-stated position that any disaster relief for shaken residents be matched with spending cuts in the federal budget.

"Those monies will be offset with appropriate savings or cost-cutting elsewhere in order to meet the priority of the federal government's role in a situation like this," Cantor said.

FEMA is making its own adjustments. To make room in its budget for cleanup efforts after Irene, the agency is delaying some rebuilding projects in Joplin, Missouri, where devastating tornadoes struck this year.

"For any projects that have not come in for approval, we're not going to be able to fund those at this point. We're going to postpone those," FEMA Administrator Craig Fugate said at a White House briefing Monday, referring to some efforts in Joplin.

Missouri's two U.S. senators released statements blasting the bureaucratic move.

"If FEMA can't fulfill its promise to our state because we have other disasters, that's unacceptable," Republican Sen. Roy Blunt said in a statement.

The criticism from the state's Democratic senator was just as harsh.

"I warned FEMA and assured victims in Joplin that they would not be forgotten after the camera trucks lowered their antennas and rolled out of town. I will fight to make sure that promise is kept," Sen. Claire McCaskill said in a statement.

Mark Merritt, a former top FEMA official and president of Witt Associates, a disaster relief consulting firm, says deficit hysteria is becoming its own disaster in the making.

"I can't imagine being in a community that's just been devastated by Hurricane Irene and sitting back and wondering are you going to be able to repair your water treatment facility. How about your wastewater treatment facility? Is your school going to be repaired? Are individuals going to be able to get back into their homes?"

Merritt argues that no state could absorb the costs of a Hurricane Katrina without federal help.

As Texas Gov. Rick Perry was battling wildfires in his home state in May, he was appealing to Washington for disaster relief. After he was turned down by the Obama administration, Perry lashed out to reporters.

"We're having to pick up 100% of the cost. Historically, the federal government picked up 75% of the cost of disasters like we have here, so there is no consistency with this administration," Perry said.

In Perry's speech announcing his presidential campaign three months later, Washington was part of the problem.

"I'll work every day to try to make Washington, D.C., as inconsequential in your life as I can," Perry said.

Six years ago this week, residents along the U.S. Gulf Coast found out firsthand how Washington matters in a disaster.

FEMA bungled the response to Hurricane Katrina, a lesson agency officials insist they have learned. To many Americans, President George W. Bush's image as commander in chief never recovered.

Over the weekend, the current man in the White House was careful to look hands on during Irene. In his remarks Sunday, President Barack Obama seemed to take aim at critics of federal disaster relief.

"This has been an exemplary effort of how good government at every level should be responsive to people's needs," he said.

Whether the response to Irene is an example of "good government" is still an open question for residents who are still reeling from the storm. http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/08/29/disaster.spending/index.html think it's a serious problem in the making (if not already HERE). What shall we "cut" to help disaster victims? Aid to states and localities (which are already reeling from cuts and are laying of police and fire fighters!)? The current cuts have left FEMA unable to fulfill its obligations in a timely manner; will further cuts mean they can't fulfill them at ALL? Bachmann obviously doesn't live in Vermont, and Paul's idea of destroying FEMA completely would leave us with exactly...what?

In my opinion, it is a disaster in the making. First they cut FEMA's funding, then when a disaster comes along, they blame Obama and demand FEMA's budget be enlarged...then when Perry (always against the federal government) asks for money and doesn't get enough, he screams bloody murder and promises to make the government "inconsequential". How inconsequential is fEMA to the East Coast?

This is partisan, but makes some valid points and I agree with it:
Quote:

Three months ago, Republicans in the House of Representatives tried to slash 2012 spending for the Federal Emergency Management Agency by 55% compared with 2011 spending levels, 70% compared with the 2010 budget. Thankfully, Senate Democrats avoided the most extreme cuts to FEMA. But since then, the United States has been pelted by several major disasters and FEMA is almost out of money.
.....
We shouldn't be surprised. Republicans also said they wouldn't do anything to help the economy and the middle class unless spending was cut from the very poor and elderly: proposing cuts to food stamps and Medicare. It's as if millions of Americans are drowning while Republicans stand on the shore, hoarding life preservers by the armfuls. You can have one in a natural disaster or get one later if you're old or unemployed -- but you can't have both.

Of course, many conservatives want to get rid of life preservers altogether. This weekend, Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul made waves by saying FEMA should be destroyed. In its policy manifesto for members of Congress, the libertarian Cato Institute urged that FEMA "should be abolished," saying that "by using taxpayer dollars to provide disaster relief and subsidized insurance, FEMA itself encourages Americans to build in disaster-prone areas and makes the rest of us pick up the tab for those risky decisions." {!!!} Indeed, when the small town of Mineral, Virginia, built itself over a fault line in 1890, it should have foreseen last week's earthquake. And don't even get me started on New York City brazenly popping up in the path of a hurricane.

Conservatives hate FEMA precisely because it represents the ideals of government at its best. Not always the implementation -- the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina exposed the dire need for reforms in FEMA's chain of command. But the spirit -- that, as Thomas Jefferson put it, through our government, we "unite in common efforts for the common good."

Just as up and down the East Coast this weekend, good neighbors helped those who couldn't help themselves, in these crisis moments, good government helps entire neighborhoods, towns and even cities that can't help themselves.

Hurricane Irene tragically claimed at least 21 lives, but fortunately the damage overall was less than anticipated. Still, according to the Los Angeles Times, total uninsured losses could be as high as $4 billion. At a time when cities and states are already strapped and our fragile economy needs every small business and working family at full speed, it's the job of our federal government to help. Yes, even if that means taxing the very rich or borrowing more money to do so.

Funnily enough, now some Republicans in Congress are demanding FEMA's budget be increased. The very same party that tried to slash FEMA's budget by more than half is now accusing President Obama of "purposefully and irresponsibly underfunding" disaster relief and "putting families and communities who have suffered from terrible disasters on the back burner.":
Quote:

House Republican leaders are calling on the Obama administration to ensure that the Federal Emergency Management Agency doesn’t run out of money as it responds to Hurricane Irene.

The Republican lawmakers want the Democratic-controlled Senate to pass an annual spending measure for the Department of Homeland Security that provides a total of $3.65 billion to FEMA’s disaster relief fund -- $1 billion in emergency funding and $2.65 billion for the 2012 fiscal year. The GOP-led House approved the bill in early June.

“Time and time again, the administration has ignored the obvious funding needs of the Disaster Relief Fund, purposefully and irresponsibly underfunding the account and putting families and communities who have suffered from terrible disasters on the back burner,” said Rep. Hal Rogers, chairman of the House Appropriations Committee. {That takes real balls, after THEY wanted to cut it by 70%!!}

“FEMA is running on fumes as they help those recovering from the devastating floods and tornadoes earlier this year,” said Rep. Jo Ann Emerson, chairwoman of the House Financial Services Subcommittee.

“The House has done its job to boost FEMA’s resources for ongoing recovery and future disasters, but the Senate is sitting on their hands instead of passing the Homeland Security Appropriations bill that will provide critical supplemental funding,” she said.

"Our focus has been safety and preparation," a senior House aide told Fox News. "We'll discuss that if and when needed."

Another senior aide said that the Obama administration will almost certainly have to ask Congress for emergency funds immediately after Irene passes because FEMA is operating on an "immediate needs" basis now.

House Majority Leader Eric Cantor, R-Va., has said that Republicans are willing to provide more money to FEMA so long as it was matched by requisite spending cuts.

The Republican-led House Appropriations Committee which earlier this year gouged FEMA's budget has issued a press release trying to blame Democrats and the president for cuts to disaster relief aid. Someone had better call the congressional doctor and check the Capitol building for chunks of falling debris.

This dramatic about-face perfectly captures conservative opportunism against government: Beat it to the ground and then, when government is obviously needed, blame liberals for not helping it get up. Coming from a political party that has vowed to shrink government to the size where it can be drowned in a bathtub, we should be skeptical when Republicans pretend they're the ones resuscitating our common good.

Governors from both sides of the aisle are praising FEMA in the wake of Irene. "FEMA has been very responsive," said New Jersey's Republican Gov. Chris Christie. Maryland's Gov. Martin O'Malley, a Democrat, also praised FEMA and drew contrasts with a few years ago when, under President George W. Bush, FEMA was undermined and ineffective.

The fact is, government works. FEMA, when it's adequately funded and staffed by competent professionals, is not an exception but the rule. It's one of millions of examples of how, through government, we unite in common efforts for the common good.

As Irene approached my neighborhood in New York, people were helping evacuees get safely to shelters, carrying gallons of water up each other's stairs and generally keeping each other entertained in the insanely long lines at grocery stores. In our national community, government was standing by to offer its helping hand if needed --- a hand conservatives are trying to sever, when they're not busy ceremoniously shaking it. http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/08/29/kohn.conservatives.fema/index.ht
ml

The hypocrisy of all this should blow everyone's mind...only it won't, will it?

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Tuesday, August 30, 2011 10:31 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"The hypocrisy of all this should blow everyone's mind...only it won't, will it?"

Hello,

If it makes you feel better, Ron Paul tends to stand firm on his positions, even to his own detriment. He has voted against funds for his own state, his own constituents, even when they were in need.

In yet another of my Very Unpopular Stances (tm), I will agree with some of Paul's criticisms. While I do think we benefit from a National Relief agency, because some disasters are too broad and costly for any single state to handle...

I also feel that some of our policies encourage people to live in flood plains, areas where it is documented that the land has flooded in the past, and will probably flood again. There is rarely a special quality about houses in such areas that makes them well-suited to resist flooding. The only real defense we bother to employ is the knowledge that flood losses will be covered.

This is a strange way to do things.

And I speak from the point of view of someone who spent most of his life living in and around flood plains.

Some of the things we do as humans are foolish and costly, and this is one of them.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Tuesday, August 30, 2011 10:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Anthony, I will surprise you by agreeing with you. It's something that's always made me shake my head (Louisianna being a specific example). We have a bit of it here, too; the Russian River periodically floods and wipes out one of the towns on its bank...and the "River Rats" (as we call them) keep rebuilding.

I don't know how you fix humans' propensity for doing stupid things, but I don't think eliminating FEMA is the answer. That, in my mind, hurts more people who were hit by unexpected disasters than it does anything to discourage people from building in stupid places. After all, our SLAC (Stanford Linear Accelerator) is built DIRECTLY on the San Andreas, as are a few hospitals and schools; nothing stopped THEM.

Maybe something like people NOT getting money to rebuild if they choose to build in stupid places might help, or something, but not giving them actual disaster aid? Not in my book!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, August 30, 2011 11:18 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I think a revamp would be more interesting to me than having no relief agency whatsoever.

But when the river rats are drowning, who will simply want to watch them lose everything and not give them the money they need so desperately to rebuild their lives?

It's not an easy choice to make. Often the intelligent thing doesn't get done because the learning curve is too painful. Even painful to watch.

It's one of those things that is easy for me to talk about philosophically. When I try to imagine myself phoning a congressman with the message, "Let Them Suffer!" Well, it's a hard call to make.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Tuesday, August 30, 2011 1:12 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I'll suggest what I suggested here when one of the local hot spots flooded for the fifth time in 20 years: "Here's your money - TO GO BUY A HOUSE SOMEWHERE ELSE!" Make it clear that nobody who ever builds in this area again will be covered, period.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, August 30, 2011 1:14 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I think a revamp would be more interesting to me than having no relief agency whatsoever.

But when the river rats are drowning, who will simply want to watch them lose everything and not give them the money they need so desperately to rebuild their lives?



That's just it - I'm not suggesting they not get the money to rebuild - just that they don't get it to rebuild THERE. Or they don't get any kind of federal flood insurance if they do. First one's on us; the rest are all you.

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Tuesday, August 30, 2011 4:07 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I think that a revamp could be reasonable, FEMA could stand to be improved and I think we all agree on that.

My dad is quite vocal about how stupid it is to rebuild for a fourth time in the same spot when it floods every five years. I tend to agree but I don't know how to communicate that to people without being mean or callous. You'd think after the second time in, say, 10 or 15 years people would get the hint that this isn't a good building location. That's a tough one. I live in a pretty safe city, in a pretty safe part of the city, so I don't foresee anything happening of the river overflow or tornado or hurricane callebor. Then again we could get quaked easily enough.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 5:31 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Also, you should take global warming (er, climate change!) into account.

HOW MANY "100-year" floods have we just had in the past seven years? Learning from history is a good thing... foresight is even better.

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 5:54 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I agree to an extent, Mike. Not after some "100-year flood" or other unexpected disaster, but when someone chooses to build in a place like the ground floor of the Russian, where everyone KNOWS it's going to flood periodically. Give them the insurance money, but not to rebuild THERE, seems like a good idea. It's hard and I know it--the Russian River area is gorgeous, who wouldn't want to live there (I only wish we could afford to!). But many, many people there (probably "most") have built up in the hills which surround the river all the way through the area--they get isolated when it floods, but that's a temporary inconvenience and they're prepared for it. It's also a problem because there's all that land down at river level, it's a tourist attraction and people want to put their business (all small, local) down where they can be seen...otherwise there's no sense in HAVING a business.

There are no easy answers. The New Orleans area is a perfect example; over the years it's been built up to the point where how CAN you tell the entire population not to rebuild there? There are so many complexities; even in the Russian, people have bought and built long ago, and can no longer afford the land vaues to rebuild elsewhere. So I certainly don't like any of the current solutions (we have dyke areas too with the same problem); I wish someone could come up with a good one.

Unfortunately Sig, getting people to take climate change into account requires getting them to BELIEVE in climate change, which many don't.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 5:58 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'll suggest what I suggested here when one of the local hot spots flooded for the fifth time in 20 years: "Here's your money - TO GO BUY A HOUSE SOMEWHERE ELSE!" Make it clear that nobody who ever builds in this area again will be covered, period.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill



Damned straight. I can't believe people go back over and over.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 10:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Because it's their HOMES...and often what keeps destroying them NOW didn't when they built there.

Also, how do you tell everyone affected by the repeated floods in and around New Orleans to go elsewhere? It's just not that simple. How I wish it were!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 10:33 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!






" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 10:43 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Is this video comparing current and future obligations to current economic output? It looks like it is.

It should be comparing current and future obligations to current and future economic output.

Or current obligations to current output.

Mixing the two makes the information meaningless.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 10:56 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Because it's their HOMES...and often what keeps destroying them NOW didn't when they built there."

Hello,

Not as often as you might believe. Most people live in flood hazard zones knowing that they are flood hazard zones. It's required information. It is disclosed before a loan or purchase.

In the everglades, some people live on houses that have stilts. I commend them for making an attempt to conform to the hazards of their environment. If they choose to live there, they at least make intelligent choices about it.

Changing our attitudes about disasters will be painful. But perhaps it is also inevitable.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 11:03 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sigh...I know Anthony. We looked at a house in Corte Madera (5 miles South) which was on the flood plain, so I know what you're saying. But if we'd bought there and several floods DID happen, we could no more afford to move than we can now, up on our safe little high-and-dry property.

The main point is it isn't an easily-solvable problem--IF you have compassion, which obviously the GOP appears not to have.

Meaningless information? Naw--you keep saying these things, picking on poor ole Raptor, shame on you. He wouldn't put upmeaningless information, or not directly address the issue, or behave like a troll...surely! Surely?

To save yourself time and trouble (not to mention confusion, frustratoin and pissed-offedness, if you are given to such things), feel free to copy my emoticon for future use...




Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 11:06 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Because it's their HOMES...and often what keeps destroying them NOW didn't when they built there.

Also, how do you tell everyone affected by the repeated floods in and around New Orleans to go elsewhere? It's just not that simple. How I wish it were!



You know, I get the "it's their home" excuse - but it only goes so far.

And Im willing to wager, that once sentimentality is removed from the equation - that relocating is going to be a hell of a lot easier than rebuilding a house and often one's entire life every couple of years.

Im not saying it's simple - but staying in the same place as it floods over and over, well, that fits the definition of insanity to a tee.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 11:16 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I think you need to rewatch the video, or watch it for the first time, before you make such comments.

'meaningless' , those numbers aren't. But dismiss them, out of hand, as you like. Ignorance is bliss, right ?


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 11:20 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
I think you need to rewatch the video, or watch it for the first time, before you make such comments.

'meaningless' , those numbers aren't. But dismiss them, out of hand, as you like. Ignorance is bliss, right ?


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "



Hello,

Did you watch the video? I did. Please address my specific concerns. They are comparing two different types of information.

That makes comparisons meaningless.

Perhaps there is a good point to be had, but the video fails completely at anything other than emotional talking points.

The use of two different kinds of data renders the data comparisons moot.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 11:22 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


it's not two different kinds of data.

The issue is not moot.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 11:38 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

You do understand that current economic output is being compared to current and future debt obligations, do you not?

Current is not equal to Current and Future.

That is as simple as I can make it. The data types are not the same.

Imagine if I compared your current income to your current and future debt obligations, and you will see what I mean.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 1:43 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I agree with Anthony, if you're going to build in a stupid place then you need to adapt to the land there, build on stilts or what have you. How often do stilts houses get destroyed in flood areas in comparison to how often traditional homes get destroyed?

The cycle of the earth and seasons is shifting and we need to adapt or else we're humped.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 3:09 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'll suggest what I suggested here when one of the local hot spots flooded for the fifth time in 20 years: "Here's your money - TO GO BUY A HOUSE SOMEWHERE ELSE!" Make it clear that nobody who ever builds in this area again will be covered, period.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill



Southern California here is FAMOUS for the folks who live in Topanga and Malibu Canyons. Every few years, brush fires burn through there and burn down very expensive homes. The next winter, the rains come and everything that wasn't burnt gets washed away in mudslides.

Then the insurance companies pay off, and the people REBUILD IN THE SAME PLACES.

Then everybody forgets, and a few years later the process repeats. And the local TV stations run with the fire and mudslide stories every time reminding everybody of the last time it happened, AFTER it's happened once again.

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 3:39 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'll suggest what I suggested here when one of the local hot spots flooded for the fifth time in 20 years: "Here's your money - TO GO BUY A HOUSE SOMEWHERE ELSE!" Make it clear that nobody who ever builds in this area again will be covered, period.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill



Southern California here is FAMOUS for the folks who live in Topanga and Malibu Canyons. Every few years, brush fires burn through there and burn down very expensive homes. The next winter, the rains come and everything that wasn't burnt gets washed away in mudslides.

Then the insurance companies pay off, and the people REBUILD IN THE SAME PLACES.

Then everybody forgets, and a few years later the process repeats. And the local TV stations run with the fire and mudslide stories every time reminding everybody of the last time it happened, AFTER it's happened once again.



If people are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, then they are not free at all.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 3:50 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

You do understand that current economic output is being compared to current and future debt obligations, do you not?

Current is not equal to Current and Future.

That is as simple as I can make it. The data types are not the same.

Imagine if I compared your current income to your current and future debt obligations, and you will see what I mean.

--Anthony




I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that Rappy is being willfully obtuse at this point.

What he's doing is akin to someone holding up their 30-year mortgage and screaming "I owe $250,000 RIGHT NOW! What will I do?!" Yes, we have long-term debt obligations. We do not currently have enough revenue coming in with which to pay those debt obligations off today. I fear we'll need a long-term plan to pay our debts.

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 3:52 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'll suggest what I suggested here when one of the local hot spots flooded for the fifth time in 20 years: "Here's your money - TO GO BUY A HOUSE SOMEWHERE ELSE!" Make it clear that nobody who ever builds in this area again will be covered, period.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill



Southern California here is FAMOUS for the folks who live in Topanga and Malibu Canyons. Every few years, brush fires burn through there and burn down very expensive homes. The next winter, the rains come and everything that wasn't burnt gets washed away in mudslides.

Then the insurance companies pay off, and the people REBUILD IN THE SAME PLACES.

Then everybody forgets, and a few years later the process repeats. And the local TV stations run with the fire and mudslide stories every time reminding everybody of the last time it happened, AFTER it's happened once again.



If people are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, then they are not free at all.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com




Free to choose, yes. But free to choose AND have taxpayers foot the bill?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 4:21 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Free to choose, yes. But free to choose AND have taxpayers foot the bill?"

Hello,

This is the issue. Not the bad choices, but the other people paying the price for them.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 3:37 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"Free to choose, yes. But free to choose AND have taxpayers foot the bill?"

Hello,

This is the issue. Not the bad choices, but the other people paying the price for them.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi



I agree. No doubt you both recognized my comment was lifted from Anthony's signature, Jacob Hornberger. It sounds good, but it's also pretty general, so I was looking to find out if there were any limits or boundaries to what that meant. Maybe Freedom can be better defined by what we can't do?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 4:07 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"Free to choose, yes. But free to choose AND have taxpayers foot the bill?"

Hello,

This is the issue. Not the bad choices, but the other people paying the price for them.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi



I agree. No doubt you both recognized my comment was lifted from Anthony's signature, Jacob Hornberger. It sounds good, but it's also pretty general, so I was looking to find out if there were any limits or boundaries to what that meant. Maybe Freedom can be better defined by what we can't do?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com






Hello,

Some people paint with a focus on negative space. Some people don't. Freedom will never be just one thing.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 2:16 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'll suggest what I suggested here when one of the local hot spots flooded for the fifth time in 20 years: "Here's your money - TO GO BUY A HOUSE SOMEWHERE ELSE!" Make it clear that nobody who ever builds in this area again will be covered, period.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill



Southern California here is FAMOUS for the folks who live in Topanga and Malibu Canyons. Every few years, brush fires burn through there and burn down very expensive homes. The next winter, the rains come and everything that wasn't burnt gets washed away in mudslides.

Then the insurance companies pay off, and the people REBUILD IN THE SAME PLACES.

Then everybody forgets, and a few years later the process repeats. And the local TV stations run with the fire and mudslide stories every time reminding everybody of the last time it happened, AFTER it's happened once again.



If people are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, then they are not free at all.




'Course they are. My point being that they're pretty damn DUMB.

I also like a story I gathered many years ago. An LA Fire Captain retired and moved to the canyons. Bought himself like a 10 acre ranch, BIG place. Put in a BIG swimming pool, bought a BIG engine driven pump, and put in a double line of Rainbird sprinklers along his property line. Kept all the brush and trees trimmed, all of that boring and expensive maintenance stuff.

Several years went by with his neighbors ridiculing him for all his work. Finally, a brush fire came up the canyon. He lit off his pump, turned on the sprinklers. The fire came up his hill, split like a wave going around a big rock, burned around both sides of his property and came together behind him.

So with some planning, smarts, and effort, an individual can deal with those problems. Just gotta have those 3 things.

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 3:08 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


GREAT story, NewOld; we should all be so smart! And yes, I forgot about Topanga and those areas; we always feel sorry for them when first the fires come and then the subsequent mudslides, but I forgot that they always rebuild right there.

I guess making sure they know they will not be insured, nor FEMA pay, for rebuilding in an area where there are even semi-reoccurring disasters is the only logical solution, thus far anyway. It's certainly common sense.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, September 1, 2011 3:44 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Several years went by with his neighbors ridiculing him for all his work. Finally, a brush fire came up the canyon. He lit off his pump, turned on the sprinklers. The fire came up his hill, split like a wave going around a big rock, burned around both sides of his property and came together behind him.


I woulda paid good money to see that, especially the obligatory snide grin that likely involved.

Reminds me just a mite of the three little pigs, that does.

-F

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Friday, September 2, 2011 1:01 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
'Course they are. My point being that they're pretty damn DUMB.



Totally agree - (I was actually testing someone's quote there). Personally, I think saying humans are dumb is redundant. I also think re that quote, people in EVERY society are free to error as much as they want, they will just have to pay the appropriate price.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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