REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Troy Davis' Clemency Denial: The Failure of a Legal "Safety Valve"

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Wednesday, September 28, 2011 06:31
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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 8:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

When Texas Governor Rick Perry said in a recent Republican presidential candidates' debate that his sleep is untroubled by doubts about the guilt of any of the 235 men and women who have been executed on his watch, he pointed out that his state has "a very thoughtful, a very clear process in place" to review death penalty cases. A cornerstone of that process, in Texas and elsewhere, is the Board of Pardons and Paroles, which is designed to act as a safety valve, removed from the emotion of the crime and the courtroom. It's a last resort, not to retry a case, but to ensure that a conviction is so ironclad that there is no doubt that it merits the ultimate punishment.

That safety valve failed in Georgia Tuesday, just as it has on a number of occasions in Texas. The Georgia Board of Pardons and Paroles denied convicted murderer Troy Davis' last appeal for clemency, setting him on a seemingly unstoppable course for execution Wednesday evening.

For the simplest picture of why that decision was so wrong — as so many of Davis' myriad supporters have pleaded for years — just look at the numbers.

— 7: that's how many of the nine original eyewitnesses have recanted their testimony against Davis.

— 0: the amount of physical evidence linking Davis to the crime (no fingerprints, no DNA, no weapon recovered).

— 3: the number of jurors who voted for death in the original trial who now believe their vote was a mistake.

— 22: the number of years the family of slain police officer Mark McPhail has had to wait for an answer to the question of whether or not Davis would die for the crime.

The last number — a symptom of the interminable appeals process — would seem to speak in favor of simply executing Davis and getting it over with. Justice delayed, as Newt Gingrich said when he fought for a law that limited death penalty appeals, is justice denied (a statement that he seemed to believe pertained only to the families of the victims, not the convicted). But the truth is that the Georgia Board of Pardons and Paroles should have ended this macabre theater when they had the chance three years ago, by commuting Davis' death sentence and either letting him serve out a life term or granting him a retrial.

Beyond all the evidentiary problems of Davis' case — to take one example, police Re-enacted the crime scene with all the eyewitnesses together and talking to each other, a practice which is now unheard of — it never had any hallmarks of a case that should have been eligible for the ultimate penalty. It was a senseless murder late at night that was only half-seen in a half-lit Burger King parking lot. A good man was killed, but even death penalty supporters, a number of whom have called for clemency in Davis' case, would agree that death cases should be reserved for those with the most incontrovertible evidence. Even before witnesses started recanting and jurors started regretting, Davis' case never met that standard. More at http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2094103,00.html case sickens me just as much as the applause and approval from the audience when the tally of executions in Rick Perry's state was mentioned. It's a travesty and only the most unthinking of people would celebrate execution. Sickens me.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 11:05 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!






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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 4:51 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Meanwhile, in TEXAS they offed a white guy for dragging a black man to death.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/21/justice/texas-dragging-death-execution/i
ndex.html?hpt=hp_t2


and in Fullerton, California , they indicted some COPS for smothering a retarded black man to death. ( Edit-- oops, missed the link--)

http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/21/justice/california-homeless-death/index.
html





Beginning to look like a bad week for white supremacists.


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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 5:03 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I don't believe in the death penalty unless:
A) the killer has killed more than one person.
(b) There is undeniable evidence that s/he did it, DNA, physical evidence, eyewitnesses if possible etc. But eyewitnesses alone are no good.

So if there's no physical evidence against this guy then he shouldn't be put to death, plain and simple. Its just too easy to execute the wrong person.

Sad things

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 5:30 PM

SKYWALKEN


Here's a column on the subject.

There Is No Travesty of Justice in Georgia. Execute Troy Davis

Quote:

I’m hearing a lot from people opposed to Troy Davis’s execution that there is no physical evidence in the case — and a whole lot of other hoo-haa.

First of all, let’s set out that the case has been going on for twenty years.

Second, let’s point out that two witnesses at Davis’s trial testified under oath that Troy Davis admitted to the shooting.

Yes, those witnesses have now, twenty years and much badgering by anti-death penalty advocates later, recanted. A federal judge spent two days reviewing the evidence and the testimony last year and issued a 172 page order explaining why the witnesses recanting was “smoke and mirrors.”

In fact, one of the chief nuggets of the case is that there was no physical evidence. Except that is crap. There is the matter of Troy Davis’s bloody clothes that you’ve probably never heard of.

There was a .38 caliber gun. Both Troy Davis and the man Davis’s team claims in the real murderer, Sylvester Coles, had a .38 caliber gun.

Davis’s gun had been used in another shooting and the gun casing were linked between both shootings. Everyone likes to gloss over that. They point out that the man who claimed Davis fired on him has now recanted — yet again 20 years later.

But here are some additional facts — if we’re going to deal with things that weren’t in contention twenty years ago.

The federal courts and state courts in Georgia have all denied Davis’s appeal. Prior to 2008, Georgia’s Supreme Court was decidedly liberal and even they passed.

For the first time in 50 years the United States Supreme Court ordered a federal court to conduct an entire rehearing of all the evidence. The court did and found all the new stuff was, again, “smoke and mirrors,” including the retracted confessions. And while building the case to claim that Sylvester Coles was the real murderer, the defense would not call Coles in for examination.

But then there is Officer MacPhail himself and what the defense all too conveniently forgets to bring up. Officer MacPhail “testified” at Troy Davis’s murder trial. See, MacPhail, an Army Ranger and police officer was working a second job that night as a security guard. He chased Davis and Sylvester Coles, who were assaulting a homeless man over a beer.

MacPhail reported in that he had run passed Sylvester Coles. MacPhail was shot from the front in the chest and face — not from behind where Coles was, but from the front where MacPhail himself located Troy Davis.

And then, if we really want to get into the weeds and talk about facts, consider this fact. Troy Davis immediately became the suspect and fled. Police roped off his house, obtained entry, and searched the home. In the laundry they found Troy Davis’s shorts from that night with evidence on the clothing directly tying him to Officer MacPhail’s murder — Officer MacPhail’s blood.

According to Darrell Collins, who is now recanting everything or claiming not to remember anything, Davis admitted to Collins that Davis had shot MacPhail in the chest and then went back to shoot MacPhail in the head at close range because MacPhail had seen his face — hence MacPhail’s blood on Davis’s shorts. Oh, and at the time Collins gave his statement way back in 1989 it was not public knowledge that Officer MacPhail had been shot in the chest and then at close range in the face.

Of course, this justice system that is supposedly about to carry out a travesty of justice ordered Davis’s shorts excluded as evidence from the trial because the police did not get a search warrant. So anti-death penalty advocates can conveniently say there is no physical evidence by discounting the gun, the casings, and ignoring Officer MacPhail’s blood on Troy Davis’s clothes found in Troy Davis’s laundry all because the very same court system that found him guilty without that physical evidence followed the law and excluded it.

Troy Davis is a cop killer and I’m perfectly fine with his execution.



http://www.redstate.com/erick/2011/09/21/there-is-no-travesty-of-justi
ce-in-georgia-executive-troy-davis

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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 5:32 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Meanwhile, in TEXAS they offed a white guy for dragging a black man to death.


Beginning to look like a bad week for white supremacists.




Any day a murdering racial supremacist low life is put down...is a pretty good day in my book.

( wasn't that guy in Texas sentenced to death when W was governor ? )




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 5:42 PM

SKYWALKEN


And here's a column by Ann Coulter, who does a great job of ripping the bogus claims of the cop killer's innocence to shreds.

Quote:

It's nearly impossible to receive a death sentence these days -- unless you do something completely crazy like shoot a cop in full view of dozens of witnesses in a Burger King parking lot, only a few hours after shooting at a passing car while exiting a party.

That's what Troy Davis did in August 1989. Davis is the media's current baby seal of death row.

After a two-week trial with 34 witnesses for the state and six witnesses for the defense, the jury of seven blacks and five whites took less than two hours to convict Davis of Officer Mark MacPhail's murder, as well as various other crimes. Two days later, the jury sentenced Davis to death.

Now, a brisk 22 years after Davis murdered Officer MacPhail, his sentence will finally be administered this week -- barring any more of the legal shenanigans that have kept taxpayers on the hook for Davis' room and board for the past two decades.

(The average time on death row is 14 years. Then liberals turn around and triumphantly claim the death penalty doesn't have any noticeable deterrent effect. As the kids say: Duh.)

It has been claimed -- in The New York Times and Time magazine, for example -- that there was no "physical evidence" connecting Davis to the crimes that night.

Davis pulled out a gun and shot two strangers in public. What "physical evidence" were they expecting? No houses were broken into, no cars stolen, no rapes or fistfights accompanied the shootings. Where exactly would you look for DNA? And to prove what?

I suppose it would be nice if the shell casings from both shootings that night matched. Oh wait -- they did. That's "physical evidence."

It's true that the bulk of the evidence against Davis was eyewitness testimony. That tends to happen when you shoot someone in a busy Burger King parking lot.

Eyewitness testimony, like all evidence tending to show guilt, has gotten a bad name recently, but the "eyewitness" testimony in this case did not consist simply of strangers trying to distinguish one tall black man from another. For one thing, several of the eyewitnesses knew Davis personally.

The bulk of the eyewitness testimony established the following:

Two tall, young black men were harassing a vagrant in the Burger King parking lot, one in a yellow shirt and the other in a white Batman shirt. The one in the white shirt used a brown revolver to pistol-whip the vagrant. When a cop yelled at them to stop, the man in the white shirt ran, then wheeled around and shot the cop, walked over to his body and shot him again, smiling.

Some eyewitnesses described the shooter as wearing a white shirt, some said it was a white shirt with writing, and some identified it specifically as a white Batman shirt. Not one witness said the man in the yellow shirt pistol-whipped the vagrant or shot the cop.

Several of Davis' friends testified -- without recantation -- that he was the one in a white shirt. Several eyewitnesses, both acquaintances and strangers, specifically identified Davis as the one who shot Officer MacPhail.

Now the media claim that seven of the nine witnesses against Davis at trial have recanted.

First of all, the state presented 34 witnesses against Davis -- not nine -- which should give you some idea of how punctilious the media are about their facts in death penalty cases.

Among the witnesses who did not recant a word of their testimony against Davis were three members of the Air Force, who saw the shooting from their van in the Burger King drive-in lane. The airman who saw events clearly enough to positively identify Davis as the shooter explained on cross-examination, "You don't forget someone that stands over and shoots someone."

Recanted testimony is the least believable evidence since it proves only that defense lawyers managed to pressure some witnesses to alter their testimony, conveniently after the trial has ended. Even criminal lobbyist Justice William Brennan ridiculed post-trial recantations.

Three recantations were from friends of Davis, making minor or completely unbelievable modifications to their trial testimony. For example, one said he was no longer sure he saw Davis shoot the cop, even though he was five feet away at the time. His remaining testimony still implicated Davis.

One alleged recantation, from the vagrant's girlfriend (since deceased), wasn't a recantation at all, but rather reiterated all relevant parts of her trial testimony, which included a direct identification of Davis as the shooter.

Only two of the seven alleged "recantations" (out of 34 witnesses) actually recanted anything of value -- and those two affidavits were discounted by the court because Davis refused to allow the affiants to testify at the post-trial evidentiary hearing, even though one was seated right outside the courtroom, waiting to appear.

The court specifically warned Davis that his refusal to call his only two genuinely recanting witnesses would make their affidavits worthless. But Davis still refused to call them -- suggesting, as the court said, that their lawyer-drafted affidavits would not have held up under cross-examination.

With death penalty opponents so fixated on Davis' race -- he's black -- it ought to be noted that all the above witnesses are themselves African-American. The first man Davis shot in the car that night was African-American.

I notice that the people so anxious to return this sociopathic cop-killer to the street don't live in his neighborhood.

There's a reason more than a dozen courts have looked at Davis' case and refused to overturn his death sentence. He is as innocent as every other executed man since at least 1950, which is to say, guilty as hell.



http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2011-09-21.html

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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 6:20 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"The one in the white shirt used a brown revolver to pistol-whip the vagrant."

Hello,

How odd. I have never seen a brown revolver. Does anyone know what make/model the revolver was?

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 7:11 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I still think that if he only killed one person he shouldn't get the death penalty, that's just how I roll. If you want to go life then fine, but death is more than I'm willing to do in this case.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, September 22, 2011 1:48 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"The one in the white shirt used a brown revolver to pistol-whip the vagrant."

Hello,

How odd. I have never seen a brown revolver. Does anyone know what make/model the revolver was?

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner





If he was pistol-whipping him with the butt end of the revolver and it had wood grips, it would appear brown.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, September 22, 2011 4:54 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Skywalken,
I don't like Ann Coulter, too much of her stuff is partisan; and I have my doubts about redstate

but I also saw a statement as fact that a t-shirt was found in Troy Davis' washing machine immediately after the shootings, that had the cop's blood on it. It was suppressed at trial as tainted fruit of an illegal search. ( EDIT--- got it half right. That was in your piece from redstate, and it was shorts, not shirt. Still hard to explain.)

That doesn't mean it didn't exist. I've only seen it mentioned once, so I can't confirm it as fact, but if that's true, even though inadmissable, that puts a different light on things. I don't see any way of explaining that shirt away. ANd I don't see where the defense tried to explain it anywhere, just get it suppressed.

Davis also took part in several other crimes of violence that same night, was involved in the shooting of at least one other person.

None of that proves he was guilty, of course, but it surely casts doubt on any characterization of him as a totally innocent angel wrongly convicted, casts doubt on the doubt, if you will.

It's not my job to be sure of his guilt, that was the jury's, but I think he might have been.

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Thursday, September 22, 2011 5:56 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"The one in the white shirt used a brown revolver to pistol-whip the vagrant."

Hello,

How odd. I have never seen a brown revolver. Does anyone know what make/model the revolver was?

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner





If he was pistol-whipping him with the butt end of the revolver and it had wood grips, it would appear brown.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill



Hello,

Is that what they meant? How odd. I guess no two people will describe anything the same way.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Thursday, September 22, 2011 12:01 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I am against the death penalty, period. I used to be on the fence, and still probably have about four toes on that fence, but for the most part, I'm on the anti-death-penalty side. We can virtually never "know" 100%, those are very rare cases. The death penalty is absolutely no deterrent...in fact it might have caused deaths by perps afraid to leave witnesses. We have no more right to take a life than anyone else does. The courts make mistakes. The police aren't necessarily honest all the time. Essentially, too many ways for it to go wrong.

And last, but by far not least, it costs MUCH more to put someone to death, what with legal fees, etc., than it does to incarcerate them for life. That's a biggie to me, tho' not up there with taking a life and possible mistakes.

I'm ashamed for my country, and the world is disgusted by us. We are still a nation of cowboys and gun slingers in many ways. Although change IS happening, in that, while still in the minority, those of us against it are a growing segment of the population.

Someone (I can guess a few) will ask if I wouldn't want the death penalty if someone I loved was killed, etc., so I will pre-answer. No I would not. There is no "justice" achieved by killing someone; I can't know what made them they way they are; it accomplishes nothing; I would NOT want anyone hollering for blood if I was killed; and the death penalty is revenge, nothing more.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, September 22, 2011 5:58 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"The one in the white shirt used a brown revolver to pistol-whip the vagrant."

Hello,

How odd. I have never seen a brown revolver. Does anyone know what make/model the revolver was?

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner





If he was pistol-whipping him with the butt end of the revolver and it had wood grips, it would appear brown.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill



Hello,

Is that what they meant? How odd. I guess no two people will describe anything the same way.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner





Not sure if that's what they meant or not; I was trying to envision a way in which a revolver would appear brown.

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Thursday, September 22, 2011 6:01 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:




I am against the death penalty, period. I used to be on the fence, and still probably have about four toes on that fence, but for the most part, I'm on the anti-death-penalty side. We can virtually never "know" 100%, those are very rare cases. The death penalty is absolutely no deterrent...in fact it might have caused deaths by perps afraid to leave witnesses. We have no more right to take a life than anyone else does. The courts make mistakes. The police aren't necessarily honest all the time. Essentially, too many ways for it to go wrong.

And last, but by far not least, it costs MUCH more to put someone to death, what with legal fees, etc., than it does to incarcerate them for life. That's a biggie to me, tho' not up there with taking a life and possible mistakes.

I'm ashamed for my country, and the world is disgusted by us. We are still a nation of cowboys and gun slingers in many ways. Although change IS happening, in that, while still in the minority, those of us against it are a growing segment of the population.

Someone (I can guess a few) will ask if I wouldn't want the death penalty if someone I loved was killed, etc., so I will pre-answer. No I would not. There is no "justice" achieved by killing someone; I can't know what made them they way they are; it accomplishes nothing; I would NOT want anyone hollering for blood if I was killed; and the death penalty is revenge, nothing more.




I have my moments where, if not exactly "Pro" death penalty, I at times don't mind it too much. Take the guy in Texas who was executed yesterday for dragging a black man to death behind his pickup truck - dragging a live human being, chained up, behind a truck down a rough asphalt road for more than three miles, until the man's body came apart. Just for being black.

That prick got the needle yesterday, and I didn't hear one goddam word of protest on his behalf. And in a way, I'm kind of okay with that.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, September 23, 2011 8:39 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I do (mind it). What is the death penalty except legally-sanctioned revenge? From what you writes, that's what it is to you.

It's not a deterrent; it doesn't do anything for the person(s) who died; it costs taxpayers far more than life in prison; it GUARANTEES mistakes; it gives the living nothing but revenge; it has been proven to be deleterious to those whose job it is; it offers no opportunity for the criminal to be rehabilitated (not set free, just grow as a human being and potentially contribute something to society or make amends in some way); most of the rest of the world (which has learned better) is disgusted by us continuing it. What are the positives, exactly?

Hell, if you want revenge, a lifetime sentence to surviving the prisons of today is FAR worse than death!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Friday, September 23, 2011 11:16 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

That prick got the needle yesterday, and I didn't hear one goddam word of protest on his behalf. And in a way, I'm kind of okay with that.




Yeah, gotta love selective moral outrage.

2 men sentenced to die...

1, a black man who shoots a cop in cold blood... PROTEST !

The other, a white guy who drags a man to death behind a pickup truck... crickets.

I guess protesting the death penalty is only socially acceptable some of the time, huh?

Crassic.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, September 23, 2011 11:21 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Yeah, gotta love selective moral outrage.

2 men sentenced to die...

1, a black man who shoots a cop in cold blood... PROTEST !

The other, a white guy who drags a man to death behind a pickup truck... crickets.

I guess protesting the death penalty is only socially acceptable some of the time, huh?

Crassic.



I love how you choose to selectively ignore facts. You know like the witnesses that recanted their testimonies.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, September 23, 2011 12:50 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yes, there's a HUGE difference between the two cases. Nonetheless, I'm forced (kicking and screaming all the way) to agree with Raptor. Hating the death penalty should NOT depend on the crime or the criminal. You either hate it because of what it is, does, stands for and can take the life of the innocent, or you're being hypocritical.

Blech! That tasted AWFUL! The things my moral values force me to do...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Friday, September 23, 2011 2:07 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


What if you don't hate the death penalty, just how it is used in some cases.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Sunday, September 25, 2011 7:14 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


If someone is dead she or he can't have a chance of escaping prison and hurting someone else. Some people just don't need to be alive anymore, those who have taken multiple lives in cold blood and we know for sure that it was them who did it. That's how I feel. It isn't so much about revenge for me as it is about preventing it from happening again to another family who has to put a relative in the ground all of a sudden because someone had a hankerin for more killin and they escaped prison or got out for good behavior. As I've said I think it should be used rarely and in uncommon circumstances. For instance the guy who just got executed in Texas (who I think is a disgusting creature indeed) technically doesn't fit my description of someone who should be given death because he only killed one person. I do think though that he should be kept for life, no excuses and should have to pay for his evil murderous crime.

Then there's the side of me that secretly understands the desire for revenge. I know it isn't right and I don't think its something that I'd personally seek since it doesn't acomplish anything really. But there's this savage creature primal part of me that has feelings of recompence and retribution, torture for torture, blood for blood. But that is only a primal part of me which is kept well at bay. Its not something I'd ever act on even though sometimes I have the want for such things to happen to people in return for their heinous deeds to others. But my bark is much worse than my bite and I wouldn't have the warewithall to actually hurt anyone in revenge, at least not for long, because that piece of me isn't all that big. My dad has the same piece in him, maybe that's where I learnt it. But neither of us are cruel in disposition and my revenge lust is brief and fleeting at best. Remember when someone posted a thread about some horrible Eastern European dictator being finally judged for his crimes and I wrote in an immediate flurry of hoping someone tortures him hard etc. And everyone was apalled at my conduct in saying such a thing and I had to back track and explain that its all gut reactions with me and that stuff and then reason takes over soon.

But that's not my reasoning for the death penalty.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, September 26, 2011 3:13 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:

I love how you choose to selectively ignore facts. You know like the witnesses that recanted their testimonies.




Uh huh.. .20 years after the fact, and after they were badgered and coached to 'recant' their testimony, by those with a political agenda.

Those 'facts' ?


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, September 26, 2011 7:59 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Nick, it's your right to feel that way. I used to feel that way too, but over time my opinion has changed.

Byte, the only discussion is between the death penalty and life in prison, there is no equating someone who got 25 years and then time off or had their sentence cut short. You have every right to believe as you do, but nobody's suggesting death penalty v. anything but life in prison, I believe. I guess the Bible's "eye for an eye" is what you believe, not the concept that only God can take a life?

Raptor...sigh...The fact that they recanted IS fact; all the rest is speculation. Convenient speculation for your argument, but nonetheless not factually proven.



Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, September 26, 2011 2:17 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Hi Niki, I think that middle comment was supposed to be to me and not Byte? I have a little piece of me that understands the lust for revenge, but that is a small piece and my reasonable side, I'd like to think, has power over it. The reason I believe in the death penalty in rare cases as I've outlined is because that person could theoretically escape and do it again, even if s/he gets life in prison. Plus why should we have to feed and take care of them when they've killed multiple people and taken the right to live from others? That's how I feel. In a modern context I don't believe in the death penalty as revenge, at least most of me doesn't, I mostly believe in it as prevention. That's my primary reason. Might there be a twitch of revengeness in there? A little bit, but I try not to opperate on that level because I do know better and it doesn't really acomplish anything in the end.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, September 27, 2011 5:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ooops, mea culpa...yes, it was to you...the brain and all, you know...

As to us paying to feed and house them, if it offends you that our taxes are going for that, then it should offend you even MORE that by sentencing them to death, we are paying for legal fees and a whole lot more WHILE feeding and housing them for years--to the point where we pay MORE to execute them than to keep them in prison for life.

It's not prevention, either. That's been proven over and over again, and is one of the arguments against it. It's referred to as not a "deterrent", which is the same thing in a way. Yes, preventing them from escaping and harming again, but how many do, in reality? If you mean prevention as in "I won't kill someone 'cuz I'd get the death penalty", that's "deterrent" and it does not work.

And what about the person who has to execute them? I watched an interview with the ex head of a prison who spoke eloquently about that, and apparently it frequently does a LOT of harm to the people who actually have to do it.

In your case I'd call it more "judgment" than "revenge", as in "that person doesn't deserve to live". I'd still be interested in knowing how you equate that to 'thou shalt not kill', and that only God can take a life, given your feelings on religion. It seems a contradiction to me; yes, I know the argument, but if one is TRULY Christian, it still seems like that thinking goes against Christian ideology.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:48 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Niki a chara,

Well technically yes, God is pretty clear in the New Testament that that time is passed, no more revenge killings etc. I don't see this as revenge though. Plus I'm only human and I don't always measure up, you know? Sometimes, as with most people I think, how I feel and how I'm suppose to feel don't link up perfectly. That's a work in progress. I never claimed to be the perfect Christian, I'm human after all. So sometimes where I'm currently at and where I'm going/heading towards aren't always the same

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, September 28, 2011 6:31 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Really? Gee, not me! I'm the perfect buddhist, I can do no wrong...

And yes, I CERTAINLY get vengeful feelings about people who do horrendous things, I don't think we'd be human if we didn't! Took me a long time to come off the fence, I used to say I thought about it case by case. I think the final straw was learning that it's more expensive to put someone to death than it is to keep them locked up for life. That and the fact that surviving in today's prisons, and HOW one would survive, are probably far worse punishments than death. So I'm not being "holier than thou" by being against it, I guess there's as much vengefulness in why I feel the way I do, in a way.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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