So what about the statehood question? by Niki2

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So what about the statehood question?

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 14:51
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Friday, September 23, 2011 9:17 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Been listening to pundits discuss it. Seems as if the right thinks Abbas screwed up, that there was no talk of working with Israel in his speech and no preparation of the Palestinian people for the fact that it won't bring about statehood.

Another said we've got it essentially ass-backwards; we tried behind the scenes to convince Abbas not to ask for statehood because if he did, we'd have to veto it because of our ties to Israel; in other words, trying to push the weaker state to "defend" us.

For me it's easy. There has to be a Palestinian state (Hammas notwithstanding, as THEY decried Abbas' efforts too and still refuse to recognize Israel); otherwise this will never end. There should be a RATIONAL division of the land, and the egregious acts of Israel need to cease being hidden from the American people so we can make up our minds on the FACTS, not just the propaganada. Betcha there would be one helluvan outcry if that were true.

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Friday, September 23, 2011 9:42 AM

HERO

Should Palestine be a state? No.

First, of all its divided in two. One part is ruled by the Palestinian Authority, the other by Hamas, it is essentially two states. That does not work. If you think it does work, enjoy your visit to East Pakistan.

Second, it will accomplish nothing to stop the violence. Statehood does not destroy Isreal or give them Jerusalem, or provide any tangible benefit whatsoever. In fact their economic situation will be worsened because Isreal will place tighter controls over Palestinians entering Isreal for their day jobs.

Third, it will mean actual war. Statehood means that the next time some idiot, and they have no shortage of idiots, fires a rocket from the Peoples Republic of Palestine and hits a school in Isreal...its an act of war and Isreal can pretty much blow them all away and conquer the invader's territory. The UN would pretty much have to go along with it. Naturally you can't expect the other arabs to stand by and let the new Palestine state be conquered, so another Arab Isreali war will be had by all.

Now if we could find a way to address a the issue of long term Isreali security...then ok, maybe a deal can be had. What I'm thinking is unilateral disarmamnet of the arab states...or everybody giving up their nuclear arms except Isreal who should get as many as they want on the understanding that if they are attacked, Isreal has the legal right to destroy every other arab nation (maybe Palestine could then be patroled by a joint multinational arab peacekeeping force whose goal is to protect Isreal).

Silly as these ideas are, the solution to the Palestinian question must include Isreali security or lots of people are going to die when Isreal is attacked...and they WILL be attacked.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

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Friday, September 23, 2011 9:54 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

There does need to be a Palestinian state.
Abbas doesn't need the UN. The pathway for him is Israel,1948. Just let him declare one and take the consequences-- Israel won't fight him unless he claims all the land. And he's got plenty of "friends"- Russia, Iran, all the Arab countries. Hamas might either join or declare separately. Then aggression by any of the 3 groups would be an act of war. See who does what first.

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Friday, September 23, 2011 2:24 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

There should be a RATIONAL division of the land, and the egregious acts of Israel need to cease being hidden from the American people so we can make up our minds on the FACTS, not just the propaganada. Betcha there would be one helluvan outcry if that were true.

Since when are borders to states / nations ever based on anyone being rational ? Not disagreeing on the sentiment, but history does not point to that being likely.

And as for the " egregious " acts of defending yourself from bloodthirsty , heartless killers ? Yeah, the world really would be outraged to see how much effort the Pals have put into murdering Israeli civilians.

Quote:

Family Slaughtered By Palestinians

March 12, 2011 - 8:11 AM | by: Yonat Friling

Five members of an Israeli family were killed Friday night when a suspected terrorist broke into their home in the West Bank settlement of Itamar and stabbed them all to death. The 12-year-old daughter who returned home from a friend’s house discovered the bodies.

According to police, the suspect broke into the house armed with a knife and stabbed the mother, father and three children, aged 11, 4 and a three-month-old baby. Two infants, aged 2 and 4, survived the attack while escaping to their neighbors.

http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/03/12/family-slaughtered-by-pa
lestinians/#ixzz1YpCoZOge

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, September 23, 2011 5:10 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Umm, you DO know what "settlement" means, right ?

Those "settlements" are created by Israeli citizens taking Palestinian lands by force and violence, and then calling in the IDF to "defend" them from the Palestinians trying to defend it, over and over as the genocidal, murderous fucks try to exterminate the Palestinian people wholesale.

And you expect me to have sympathy for them ?
Well, I do, the kids at least, but I have just as much for the Palestinian kids murdered by these fucking "settlers" as they drench their stolen lands in blood.

And you... do not.

-F

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Sunday, September 25, 2011 7:29 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I believe that no matter what ever happens those guys will keep fighting. They'll keep hurting each other. They'll keep shooting rockets at each other.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Sunday, September 25, 2011 8:24 PM

PHOENIXSHIP

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I believe that no matter what ever happens those guys will keep fighting. They'll keep hurting each other. They'll keep shooting rockets at each other.

Yes - this is the bottom line and you are right to point it out.

But... I guess we shouldn't just throw our hands up and give in to the depressing truth. Maybe the question could be: It's probably a waste of time, but if we were going to try for peace, how would we go about it?

My two cents? Make them a state. This will force them to codify their "Death to Jews" agenda that they have been pursuing without a real government structure. Right now, they pop rockets into civilian areas of Israel and claim that it's illegal extremists. If it were a true state, they'd have to commit to either trying to kill every jew in the world or stop the paramilitary attacks.

I believe that Israel would tolerate a Palestine. I mean, they gotta be sick of sitting on this rattlesnake. They'd tolerate it as long as it wasn't trying to annihilate Judaism. Plus, as a rule, if people want to rule themselves within the boundaries of their own land, they should have that option.

This situation screams irony. The jews, persecuted throughout history, are persecuting the Palestinians. The Palestinians are crying out for the freedom to exist, just as they are fighting to destroy Israel's right to exist.

What a mess. It won't be solved in our lifetime.

"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"

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Monday, September 26, 2011 4:33 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenixship:

if people want to rule themselves within the boundaries of their own land, they should have that option.

There's the problem: both sides want it ALL.

Some Jewish groups talk about biblical Israel, ALL of both banks of the Jordan, Judea and Samaria, as it was in the times of King Solomon and king David.

Palestinian groups talk about " historical Palestine ", as it was before the 1948 war, let alone after the subsequent wars and treaties.

Media stories are still written of Palestinians who revere the land deeds of their grandfathers who owned land before 1948, how they still consider that land " theirs", how they still have the keys to houses their grandparents owned before 1948, that they're still waiting to reclaim.

Both sides want ALL of Jerusalem.

That's where the NEXT political battles, the next war, will come from.

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Monday, September 26, 2011 8:01 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Why do we care about Israel, or Palestine?

Last I looked, we are fighting 2 wars, are in the midst of the "great recession", people are being sent to jail for 10 years for a joint, and gun control is still being implemented...

Not to mention, Mexican cartels, drug companies, ObamaCare, high taxes, and race relations.

I may be callous (or ahead of the curve) but mayhaps we should be focusing on OUR people first..

Just a thought.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, September 27, 2011 2:25 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

Why do we care about Israel, or Palestine?

Because American Jews care about Israel. Because they VOTE. Because they are relatively affluent, and Jewish groups donate a ton of MONEY to political campaigns. Because they TALK, thru word of mouth, and the media, because a lot of them are in the communication business, so they are influential. Because they are historically, liberal Democratic voters who have been persecuted in the past, so they are a voice for civil rights and civil liberties, which the Republicans would like to divide or confuse. Because creating the nation of Israel was one of the first things the United Nations did, and it was a Great Hope of the postwar liberal freedom and rights movement.

That's why we care about ISRAEL. About the Palestinians, not so much. Maybe because they have "friends" with a lot of money and oil.

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Tuesday, September 27, 2011 2:51 PM

DREAMTROVE

I think a palestinian state is best for Israel. A state can be negotiated with and reasoned with in a way that 6 million disenfranchised arabs cannot. The problem with the current situation, from an Israeli perspective, is that any agreement reached with some palestinians will have no bearing on future actions of other palestinians.

I actually don't even think it's Israel or Palestine that's the problem here, it's a bunch of schemers on a land grab and I'm beginning to suspect that a fair number of them are just real estate developers looking to make a buck.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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