REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

HR 822 (again)

POSTED BY: WULFENSTAR
UPDATED: Monday, November 21, 2011 18:30
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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 9:34 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


It looks like it will pass.

Opinions? Personal opinions only please, no talking points.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"




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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 10:06 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Not that you or any other gun owner would be convinced otherwise, but it's the complete opposite direction imo. There's too much rage and anger on the streets. Hey, someone took a shot at the White House - "Just another day in the US of A!"
The NRA is using "Freedom!" to help it's millionaires sell more guns, plain and simple, and that's what Simple folk respond to unfortunately sometimes; short, emotional barking slogans.

Like I said, doubt you'll want to read contrary opinions, but who knows, I can tell by your writing over the last 6 months that you are, hmmm, growing? Perhaps being less afraid of other opinions, maybe? So what the heck, here goes:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-horwitz/the-real-slippery-slope-o_b
_1096825.html


The Real Slippery Slope of Gun Laws - excerpt:

H.R. 822, which was drafted by the NRA's lawyers, would force law enforcement to recognize concealed handgun permits issued by other states, including states with extremely weak regulations in regards to screening and training requirements. It would allow individuals with concealed handgun permits to carry loaded handguns when they visit other states even when they do not meet the standards for obtaining a concealed handgun permit -- or even owning a gun -- in the state(s) they are visiting!

How radical and dangerous is this legislation? Republicans on the House Judiciary Committee actually cast votes on October 13 to ensure that the following categories of individuals would be able to carry loaded guns in public in other states under H.R. 822:

Misdemeanant sex offenders
Individuals on the FBI's Terrorist Watch List
Individuals with misdemeanor convictions for stalking or unlawful surveillance
Individuals with misdemeanor convictions for assaulting or impersonating a police officer
Individuals with misdemeanor convictions for selling drugs to minors
Individuals who have been subjects of domestic abuse protection orders in the past 10 years
Consider, too, that several states require no training whatsoever on the part of residents to obtain a concealed handgun permit. Even those that do require no more than a single day-class of training, and that's typically good for life (no repeat training required when you renew a permit). Virginia's requirement, for example, has been reduced to a one-hour online class. You watch a video and then take a multiple choice test (as many times as you need to get it right). Some of the survivors of the Virginia Tech tragedy who have never even held a handgun in real life were able to pass this "course."

So, Wulf, more guns in the hands of less qualified people - that sound like a good idea to you?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 10:14 AM

STORYMARK


Yee-haw.

So much for states rights. Like so many other things, that only matters to conservatives when it's something the want. If not, screw State sovereignty.


"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 10:40 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

While it would benefit me personally to have reciprocity forced upon other states, I can not claim this to be a blow for freedom. I can only imagine the uproar if an abortion reciprocity agreement were to be passed, requiring all states to honor the abortion laws of a visitor from another state. We would hear a great deal about state's rights and the ability of people to determine their own destiny, and not have their laws dictated by people in a faraway place.

I enjoy gun freedom, and I encourage gun freedom, but I still think the people who live in a state should have some rights to determine local gun regulations. If folks in Somestate, USA want to have stringent rules for concealed carry, that should be their prerogative. They should not be forced to abide by the concealed carry decisions of Gunstate, USA.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 10:48 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Problem is, certain states infringe on the 2a.

Imagine the uproar if Alabama said you could only own a business if you were white? Or didn't that already happen?

Or how about this? You could only freely speak in California if you were granted permission by the cops?

The 2a is AS important as the first, and maybe more so because it protects the first.

All HR 822 does is say that everyone who has passed the tests for a CCW, can exercise that right in ALL states.



"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 10:53 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Problem is, Concealed Carry is not a right granted by any amendment of the constitution.

Even if you assume a universal right to keep and bear arms, that does not imply a universal right to conceal arms.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 11:18 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Problem is, Concealed Carry is not a right granted by any amendment of the constitution.

Even if you assume a universal right to keep and bear arms, that does not imply a universal right to conceal arms.



This...simply this.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 11:26 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


The right is to "bear" arms, as in... carry them with you.

In a backpack, in a coat, in a pocket, in a holster, in luggage, in a trunk... hell, beneath a hat, in a sock...



"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 11:51 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Concealed carry is implied - ESPECIALLY when open-carry invites harrassment and potential civil disturbance or brandishing charges.

You cannot have it both ways, if you believe that the second amendment holds, then if you ban both open and concealed carry - you HAVE violated it.

For mine own, I do not believe the rights to bear arms, or to vote, should EVER be arbitrarily stripped from ANYONE - the only case in which I think one might be justified in losing the right to bear arms would be in a seperate hearing as part of the sentencing where that is judged irrespective of other penalty in accordance with due process - and the right to vote should NEVER be stripped from anyone, ever, cause it effectively makes them an un-person and strikes me as an especially horrific violation of constitutional principles.

Ergo, if the states choose to piss all over the Constitution and laugh, it is the federal governments JOB to smack them down for it - in fact that's one of the few reasons we have one at all, and one of the few uses of their so-called powers I both respect and lands with actual constitutional authority.

It's also worth remembering that when written, most state constitutions stated quite clearly that the right to bear arms was not to be QUESTIONED - didn't say not violated, didn't say not infringed, NOT EVEN QUESTIONED - that's as strong a statement as one could make, and an act of ultimate hypocrisy to them violate it no matter how many have or how often they have, it still does not make it right.

Had I more time to comment I would cite the very folks who wrote the damn second amendment and their own words on the subject, which are blisteringly clear no matter who chooses to willfully ignore them - but alas I have biz and must go.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 12:04 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Wulf,

You are inferring more than the amendment states. The amendment is not explicit as to how the weapons may be borne by the individual. In cases of ambiguity, rights are reserved to the states and probably ought to be.

While it would certainly be a nice time for me if I got to carry my gun concealed in every state without regards to their laws and stipulations, my respect for states' rights requires an allowance that they may have their own preferences regarding how weapons may be carried. Even the founding fathers themselves would likely be divided on the legality and morality of carrying a weapon concealed on the person. Amongst men of their class in society, concealing arms would often be seen as the purview of brigands and assassins, not honest men.

I disagree with this viewpoint, obviously, but I allow for other points of view.

Just as there may be states where there is no concealed carry whatsoever, I understand there may be states with greater or fewer restrictions on the practice. Chaining others to the preferences of my own state seems both rude and wrong.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 12:13 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


I would argue that if this bill were to pass, states like California, Maryland, New Jersey etc would become safer places.

But it would also cause quite a fuss, as the people in these states would start to get outraged.

"Why does someone from Virginia (in Maryland) have more rights than I (who live in Maryland) do?!!"

THAT is why certain groups, in my opinion, are fighting so hard against it.

ETA: Essentially, this bill kills gun control. Granted, it keeps the idea that we need a permit to exercise our 2a rights, but its a good start.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 12:25 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


http://www.c-span.org/Live-Video/C-SPAN/

Rep Trey Gowdy is perfect in his views (IMHO)

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 1:25 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


It passed the House.

So now it will go to the Senate, where as one man put it, "good bills, go to die".

Guess we shall see. I, for one, look forward to being able to carry wherever I go.

If it does get made into law, places like New York City, and California will never be the same again. But in a good way.

Think on it. Families and friends will be able to visit relatives in these places, and have the tools to keep them safe.

Citizens there, will start to question why they are not allowed to protect themselves.

Everything will change, but for the better.



"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 1:45 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important



Hello Wulf,

Just because something has a happy outcome for you and me doesn't mean it's all gold, gumdrops, and glory.

The method in which this is being handled troubles me a great deal.

If there is an honest belief in a 2nd amendment right to conceal carry everywhere, then why isn't that the focus of arguments?

Instead, this bill is granting one state (the license granter) the power to tell all the others how to conduct themselves on an issue.

It may be opening a door through which odious things will pass in the future.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 2:29 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I'm sorry, but the Second Amendment no more "implies" concealed carry than it *requires* you to join a well-regulated militia in order to exercise your right to keep and bear arms. In fact, I can make quite a stronger case for the latter, because it IS specifically mentioned in the wording of the Amendment itself.

So who here is a member of a militia? Actually, who here is a member of a WELL-REGULATED militia?

I'm a 2A guy, but I'm also a realist.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 3:22 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh good gawd, not guns AGAIN? Don't people ever get tired of this old horse? Sad...



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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 3:23 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I see what Wulf and Frem are saying and I'm a 2a person, but as Anthony says the current law doesn't limit gun ownership or even the ability to get a concealed carry permit. It just means that states get to decide how that is done for themselves and I do like states' rights for most things. So right now I'm slimly siding with Anthony on this one but I'm going to think about it some more too.

Question to help me decide: Lets pretend that Lucy's father lives in a state where its hard to get a concealed carry permit. Lucy has a permit for her state, did all the things necessary in order to get it.Lucy drives alone to that state to visit him for a few days, carrying her gun on her just in case, since she's alone and all. When she gets there she and her dad have a great time sightseeing and so forth and she keeps her weapon on her as she's used to doing in her own city, which is a fairly rough place. So under the current law if Lucy gets caught with her concealed handgun while visiting, what will happen? Will she get in trouble because she hasn't met the requirements of her dad's state to have a concealed weapon even though she's qualified in her state? What kind of trouble will she get in? Will it be a warning or will it be something more severe? If Lucy wants to be conscientious should she be looking up the requirements before she goes to stay with her father? Even though she really feels better having the weapon on her due to the long car trip out of her state and across to the other side of his where he lives? How do open carry laws fit into the story?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 4:15 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
It passed the House.

So now it will go to the Senate, where as one man put it, "good bills, go to die".




They certainly do.

http://pleasecutthecrap.typepad.com/main/2010/10/want-proof-that-the-r
epublican-party-is-against-the-people.html#tp




"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 4:47 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Riona,

Currently, it behooves you to thoroughly research the laws of the state you intend to visit in regards to concealed carry. Many states have reciprocal agreements (that is, they voluntarily honor the concealed permits of other states) but some states do not. So your imagined daughter could get arrested for violating the laws in her father's state. She could also be warned. She may have her gun confiscated, depending on the rules and the enforcing officer's attitude.

Advocates of the law believe this is wrong, as it can be inconvenient for people to have to check the concealed carry laws of the states they visit. I agree that it is inconvenient.

But we can also imagine that the people in a state have thought carefully about what criteria people should meet in order to carry a concealed weapon. All of their careful consideration goes out the window when they are forced to honor the permits from Gunstate, USA.

It would be great for me personally if I could carry concealed in virtually every state of the union and not have to think twice about it. But I allow that people in other states may not be comfortable with that. They may not like the criteria that my state uses when issuing concealed permits.

Also, different states have different rules about where you can take a concealed weapon. Some states don't let you carry them into a restaurant that serves alcohol. Such restrictions would still exist even under this bill, so you still need to research the state you will be visiting before carrying your gun around.

I would like to see the future of this country head in the direction of every citizen being allowed to carry weapons, concealed on their person or not. However, I feel there are right and wrong ways to make this change. Forced reciprocity feels like a technique that might be abused. We may be quick to endorse it when it is applied in our favor, but we might change our tune if we were forced to reciprocate with things we don't agree with.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 5:24 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Just for fun, here's the latest text of HR 822.

Quote:

H.R.822 -- National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Act of 2011 (Reported in House - RH)


HR 822 RH


Union Calendar No. 187


112th CONGRESS


1st Session



H. R. 822


[Report No. 112-277]

To amend title 18, United States Code, to provide a national standard in accordance with which nonresidents of a State may carry concealed firearms in the State.



IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES



February 18, 2011

Mr. STEARNS (for himself and Mr. SHULER) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary



November 10, 2011

Additional sponsors: Mr. BOREN, Mr. ROSS of Arkansas, Mr. GRAVES of Missouri, Mr. HUELSKAMP, Mr. GIBSON, Mr. HELLER, Mr. OWENS, Mr. COFFMAN of Colorado, Mr. LAMBORN, Mr. DUNCAN of Tennessee, Mrs. SCHMIDT, Mr. WESTMORELAND, Mr. ROGERS of Alabama, Mr. GINGREY of Georgia, Mr. YOUNG of Alaska, Mrs. BACHMANN, Mr. BURTON of Indiana, Mr. GARRETT, Mr. COLE, Mr. DIAZ-BALART, Mr. BOSWELL, Mr. MILLER of Florida, Mr. BARTON of Texas, Mr. CARTER, Mr. PENCE, Mr. HEINRICH, Mr. BENISHEK, Mr. CHAFFETZ, Mr. HALL, Mr. HOLDEN, Mr. WEST, Mr. HERGER, Mr. MICA, Mr. JOHNSON of Illinois, Mr. POSEY, Ms. GRANGER, Mr. RAHALL, Mr. GARY G. MILLER of California, Mr. BISHOP of Georgia, Mr. PETERSON, Mr. KISSELL, Mr. DAVIS of Kentucky, Mr. MCINTYRE, Mr. LATHAM, Ms. FOXX, Mr. BACHUS, Mrs. ADAMS, Mr. WILSON of South Carolina, Mr. MULVANEY, Mr. PETRI, Mr. MCCOTTER, Mr. TURNER of Ohio, Mr. CANSECO, Ms. JENKINS, Mrs. EMERSON, Mr. KLINE, Mr. GENE GREEN of Texas, Mr. WITTMAN, Mr. HARRIS, Mr. JORDAN, Mr. COSTELLO, Mr. FLEMING, Mr. ROSS of Florida, Mr. RIVERA, Mr. BILIRAKIS, Mr. LATTA, Mr. ROGERS of Michigan, Mr. SAM JOHNSON of Texas, Mr. KINZINGER of Illinois, Mr. GIBBS, Mr. PALAZZO, Mr. BUCHANAN, Mr. CRENSHAW, Mr. GRIFFITH of Virginia, Mr. DENT, Mr. TIBERI, Mr. ALTMIRE, Mr. THORNBERRY, Mrs. MILLER of Michigan, Mr. CRITZ, Mr. NUGENT, Mr. POMPEO, Mr. POE of Texas, Mr. ADERHOLT, Mr. PLATTS, Mr. FORBES, Mr. SCHOCK, Mr. HUNTER, Mr. WALZ of Minnesota, Mr. SULLIVAN, Mr. LUETKEMEYER, Mr. DUNCAN of South Carolina, Mr. SCALISE, Mr. HENSARLING, Mr. YOUNG of Indiana, Mr. WOLF, Mr. TERRY, Mr. FRANKS of Arizona, Mr. HECK, Mr. DENHAM, Mr. RYAN of Ohio, Mr. CAMP, Mr. LUCAS, Mr. MCKINLEY, Mr. SHUSTER, Mr. REED, Mr. THOMPSON of Pennsylvania, Mr. GUINTA, Mr. BROOKS, Mrs. ELLMERS, Mr. CONAWAY, Mr. FLORES, Mr. MARCHANT, Mr. MURPHY of Pennsylvania, Mr. BRADY of Texas, Mr. JONES, Mr. ALEXANDER, Mr. SESSIONS, Mr. MACK, Mr. BISHOP of Utah, Mrs. CAPITO, Mr. ROONEY, Mr. LUJAN, Mr. YODER, Mr. KELLY, Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN, Mr. REHBERG, Mr. BONNER, Mr. BROUN of Georgia, Mr. CHANDLER, Mr. BARROW, Mr. OLSON, Mr. LANDRY, Mr. BARLETTA, Mr. BARTLETT, Mr. LATOURETTE, Mr. GUTHRIE, Mr. JOHNSON of Ohio, Mr. AKIN, Mr. BUCSHON, Mr. DONNELLY of Indiana, Mr. STIVERS, Mr. FITZPATRICK, Mr. CHABOT, Mr. KIND, Mr. CULBERSON, Mr. SCHILLING, Mr. BOUSTANY, Mr. FARENTHOLD, Mr. SMITH of Nebraska, Mr. ROE of Tennessee, Mr. NEUGEBAUER, Mr. CUELLAR, Mr. LONG, Mr. MCCAUL, Mr. MATHESON, Mr. MICHAUD, Mr. DEFAZIO, Mr. WHITFIELD, Mr. DESJARLAIS, Mr. AUSTRIA, Mr. HARPER, Mr. BACA, Mr. BILBRAY, Mr. HANNA, Mr. SCHWEIKERT, Mr. WALSH of Illinois, Mr. CRAVAACK, Mr. MARINO, Mr. DINGELL, Mr. MCCLINTOCK, Mr. GRIFFIN of Arkansas, Mr. TIPTON, Mr. WALDEN, Mr. GOSAR, Mr. LARSEN of Washington, Mr. NUNNELEE, Mrs. MYRICK, Mr. LANKFORD, Mr. LABRADOR, Mr. HULTGREN, Mr. RENACCI, Mr. SCOTT of South Carolina, Mr. GOODLATTE, Mr. BASS of New Hampshire, Mr. GRAVES of Georgia, Mr. MCHENRY, Mrs. ROBY, Mr. RIGELL, Mr. CRAWFORD, Mr. AUSTIN SCOTT of Georgia, Mr. ROKITA, Mrs. HARTZLER, Mr. SOUTHERLAND, Mr. ROGERS of Kentucky, Mr. COBLE, Mr. STUTZMAN, Mr. GOWDY, Mr. ROYCE, Mr. QUAYLE, Mr. UPTON, Mr. PITTS, Mr. PEARCE, Mr. PRICE of Georgia, Mr. HURT, Mrs. BLACKBURN, Mr. FLEISCHMANN, Mr. HUIZENGA of Michigan, Mr. WALBERG, Mr. ISSA, Mr. ROHRABACHER, Mr. CAMPBELL, Mr. NUNES, Mr. BERG, Mrs. NOEM, Mrs. MCMORRIS RODGERS, Mr. RIBBLE, Mr. RYAN of Wisconsin, Mr. BURGESS, Mr. SHIMKUS, Mr. WOMACK, Mrs. BLACK, Mr. KINGSTON, Mr. YOUNG of Florida, Mr. CARDOZA, Ms. HERRERA BEUTLER, Mr. DUFFY, Mr. SCHRADER, Mr. FINCHER, Ms. SEWELL, Mr. KING of Iowa, Mr. MCCARTHY of California, Mr. MCKEON, Ms. BUERKLE, Mr. LOBIONDO, Mr. GALLEGLY, Mrs. LUMMIS, Mr. GARDNER, Mr. CASSIDY, Mr. WEBSTER, Mrs. BIGGERT, Mr. COURTNEY, Mr. HASTINGS of Washington, and Mr. CALVERT



November 10, 2011

Deleted sponsor: Mr. COHEN (added May 2, 2011; deleted October 12, 2011)



November 10, 2011

Reported with an amendment, committed to the Committee of the Whole House on the State of the Union, and ordered to be printed



[Strike out all after the enacting clause and insert the part printed in italic]



[For text of introduced bill, see copy of bill as introduced on February 18, 2011]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



A BILL

To amend title 18, United States Code, to provide a national standard in accordance with which nonresidents of a State may carry concealed firearms in the State.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Act of 2011'.

SEC. 2. RECIPROCITY FOR THE CARRYING OF CERTAIN CONCEALED FIREARMS.

(a) In General- Chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after section 926C the following:

`Sec. 926D. Reciprocity for the carrying of certain concealed firearms

`(a) Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or political subdivision thereof (except as provided in subsection (b)), a person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, and who is carrying a valid identification document containing a photograph of the person, and a valid license or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of a State and which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm, may possess or carry a concealed handgun (other than a machinegun or destructive device) that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, in any State, other than the State of residence of the person, that--
`(1) has a statute that allows residents of the State to obtain licenses or permits to carry concealed firearms; or
`(2) does not prohibit the carrying of concealed firearms by residents of the State for lawful purposes.
`(b) The possession or carrying of a concealed handgun in a State under this section shall be subject to the same conditions and limitations, except as to eligibility to possess or carry, imposed by or under Federal or State law or the law of a political subdivision of a State, that apply to the possession or carrying of a concealed handgun by residents of the State or political subdivision who are licensed by the State or political subdivision to do so, or not prohibited by the State from doing so.
`(c) In subsection (a), the term `identification document' means a document made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, or a political subdivision of a State which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.'.
(b) Clerical Amendment- The table of sections for such chapter is amended by inserting after the item relating to section 926C the following:
`926D. Reciprocity for the carrying of certain concealed firearms.'.
(c) Effective Date- The amendments made by this section shall take effect 90 days after the date of the enactment of this Act.

SEC. 3. GAO AUDIT OF THE STATES' CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT OR LICENSING REQUIREMENTS FOR NON-RESIDENTS.

(a) The Comptroller General of the United States shall conduct an audit of--
(1) the laws and regulations of each State that authorize the issuance of a valid permit or license to permit a person, other than a resident of such State, to possess or carry a concealed firearm, including a description of the permitting or licensing requirements of each State that issues concealed carry permits or licenses to persons other than a resident of such State;
(2) the number of such valid permits or licenses issued or denied (and the basis for such denials) by each State to persons other than a resident of such State; and
(3) the effectiveness of such State laws and regulations in protecting the public safety.
(b) Not later than 1 year after the date of enactment of this Act, the Comptroller General shall submit to Congress a report on the findings of the study conducted under subsection (a).
Union Calendar No. 187


112th CONGRESS


1st Session



H. R. 822


[Report No. 112-277]



A BILL

To amend title 18, United States Code, to provide a national standard in accordance with which nonresidents of a State may carry concealed firearms in the State.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



November 10, 2011



Reported with an amendment, committed to the Committee of the Whole House on the State of the Union, and ordered to be printed



So, among other things, you can only carry a concealed firearm into another state if they already have a law allowing concealed carry.


"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 6:16 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Geezer,

Quite correct. Which leaves off about 2 states of the union, unless I miss my count. D.C. and one other I can't bring to mind.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 6:24 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:


So, among other things, you can only carry a concealed firearm into another state if they already have a law allowing concealed carry.




It's late and the wording is especially, purposely government gunk, but I think the tricky part is "subsection b."

The meat of the bill starts with: "Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or political subdivision thereof (except as provided in subsection (b)"

Subsection b says: "(b) The possession or carrying of a concealed handgun in a State under this section shall be subject to the same conditions and limitations, except as to eligibility to possess or carry, imposed by or under Federal or State law or the law of a political subdivision of a State, that apply to the possession or carrying of a concealed handgun by residents of the State or political subdivision who are licensed by the State or political subdivision to do so, or not prohibited by the State from doing so. "

Which I believe all adds up to, "you can carry in a state that doesn't have carry laws if you come from one that does."
Geezer - I believe you worked/work in DC - maybe from osmosis you have the gift of their language.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 6:31 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Thank you so much, Geezer, for the text.

My problem is right here:

Quote:

To amend title 18, United States Code, to provide a national standard in accordance with which nonresidents of a State may carry concealed firearms in the State.


We already have a national standard. It is called the US f***ing Constitution.

Additional changes in the US Code is bullshit. It is trying to leverage the moral authority of the Constitution to overstep the authority of the federal government.

Just enforce the Constitution of the USA. We don't need additional national standards.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 7:26 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Anthony,

You may find this opinion of interest.

Quote:


http://www.nationalgunrights.org/trojan-horse-to-receive-floor-vote/

As you know, I’ve been vocal about my opposition to H.R. 822. I’m worried it will open the door to MASSIVE federal overreach and intrusion into the concealed weapons permit process.

The LAST people we want involved in setting concealed weapons policy are the federal government.

In fact, one of my biggest concerns about concealed carry permits — the lists of gun owners a permit process creates — should send shivers down your spine: Imagine Eric Holder and the BATFE with a national database of concealed carry permit holders.

It’s bad enough to have those lists exist at a state level. Once Eric Holder and his cronies find a way to request that list from a state, they’ll do it — all the in the name of “implementing H.R. 822.”

That possibility is enough to make any red-blooded American want to shelf H.R. 822....


Once gun owners let the Obamacrats start mandating whether states recognize permit reciprocity, they will want to mandate what it takes to get and keep those permits.

We’re talking about:

More onerous standards to acquire a permit so that only FBI agents can pass muster (look at New York’s permit system);
Higher fees;
More training requirements;
A demonstration of “Need” for a permit;
More frequent renewal periods;
Federally-mandated waiting periods;
A national database of all permit holders, accessible by Attorney General Eric Holder;
An extensive, federally-created list of Criminal Safezones, where only criminals will carry and where law-abiding gun owners are vulnerable;
The list of potential problems is endless....




I wouldn't blame the problem on the "Obamacrats." But I do agree that once federal legislation gets a foot in the door on something like this, the bureaucratic nightmare will just snowball.

You know how Signy is always talking about the irreversible accumulation of wealth, what we're calling "gravity" in the other thread? I see the same type of accumulation with laws. Laws can't help but get bigger and bigger....



-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 7:31 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Geezer,

Quite correct. Which leaves off about 2 states of the union, unless I miss my count. D.C. and one other I can't bring to mind.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner





The District of Columbia (not a state) and Illinois, if memory serves, are the two places left out.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 7:39 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Anthony,

You may find this opinion of interest.

Quote:


http://www.nationalgunrights.org/trojan-horse-to-receive-floor-vote/

As you know, I’ve been vocal about my opposition to H.R. 822. I’m worried it will open the door to MASSIVE federal overreach and intrusion into the concealed weapons permit process.

The LAST people we want involved in setting concealed weapons policy are the federal government.

In fact, one of my biggest concerns about concealed carry permits — the lists of gun owners a permit process creates — should send shivers down your spine: Imagine Eric Holder and the BATFE with a national database of concealed carry permit holders.

It’s bad enough to have those lists exist at a state level. Once Eric Holder and his cronies find a way to request that list from a state, they’ll do it — all the in the name of “implementing H.R. 822.”

That possibility is enough to make any red-blooded American want to shelf H.R. 822....


Once gun owners let the Obamacrats start mandating whether states recognize permit reciprocity, they will want to mandate what it takes to get and keep those permits.

We’re talking about:

More onerous standards to acquire a permit so that only FBI agents can pass muster (look at New York’s permit system);
Higher fees;
More training requirements;
A demonstration of “Need” for a permit;
More frequent renewal periods;
Federally-mandated waiting periods;
A national database of all permit holders, accessible by Attorney General Eric Holder;
An extensive, federally-created list of Criminal Safezones, where only criminals will carry and where law-abiding gun owners are vulnerable;
The list of potential problems is endless....




I wouldn't blame the problem on the "Obamacrats." But I do agree that once federal legislation gets a foot in the door on something like this, the bureaucratic nightmare will just snowball.

You know how Signy is always talking about the irreversible accumulation of wealth, what we're calling "gravity" in the other thread? I see the same type of accumulation with laws. Laws can't help but get bigger and bigger....



-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)




Well said. And it's not the "Obamacrats" that we have to worry about, since Obama has LOOSENED gun laws in virtually every instance - even offering guns to Mexican drug cartels in the process!

And you can bet your bottom dollar that if there is a list of concealed-carry permit holders, the government WILL find a way to "need" a copy of that list, and it will be a matter of national security under the Patriot Act, and you'll have no right to even know about it. No warrants will issue, no reasonable cause shall be shown.

The way to get folks like Wulfie to give the feds everything they want? Make it look like the feds are giving Wuflie everything HE wants, and he'll gladly hand over every bit of his personal liberty. Remember, fascism will come to America not wearing a swastika, but wrapped in the flag and clutching the cross.

Wulf, can I search you, your bag, and your car on your way into the city? I have to make sure you're not one of those Occupy hippies. Hey, if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear, right? :)

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 9:18 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Good points CTS and Quicko. I've decided I'm opposed to this bill passing, I see how it looks good and how it would be convenient, but it seems to have too many little loopy hole flaws in it. So I vote no.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, November 17, 2011 2:56 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Oh hell - I'm not necessarily even opposed to the idea of it - I think it needs to be left up to the states HOW such things are done, and in what fashion.

For instance, if this were to pass, what would happen if I carried my loaded semi-auto handgun with 30-round magazine into the Texas Capitol building while the legislature was in session? Texas law says I can't do that (but I *can* carry it into my college classroom during a particularly stressful finals week); Wisconsin law says I can.

So can I or can't I?

These are the niggling details that tend to get overlooked in such sweeping gestures, and these are part of why there aren't three-page bills anymore.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, November 17, 2011 3:27 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
It's late and the wording is especially, purposely government gunk, but I think the tricky part is "subsection b."

The meat of the bill starts with: "Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or political subdivision thereof (except as provided in subsection (b)"

Subsection b says: "(b) The possession or carrying of a concealed handgun in a State under this section shall be subject to the same conditions and limitations, except as to eligibility to possess or carry, imposed by or under Federal or State law or the law of a political subdivision of a State, that apply to the possession or carrying of a concealed handgun by residents of the State or political subdivision who are licensed by the State or political subdivision to do so, or not prohibited by the State from doing so. "

Which I believe all adds up to, "you can carry in a state that doesn't have carry laws if you come from one that does."
Geezer - I believe you worked/work in DC - maybe from osmosis you have the gift of their language.



Nope.

Should have included the CRS summary.

Quote:

Bill Summary & Status
112th Congress (2011 - 2012)
H.R.822
CRS Summary

H.R.822
Latest Title: National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Act of 2011
Sponsor: Rep Stearns, Cliff [FL-6] (introduced 2/18/2011) Cosponsors (245)
Related Bills: H.RES.463
Latest Major Action: 11/16/2011 Passed/agreed to in House. Status: On passage Passed by recorded vote: 272 - 154 (Roll no. 852).
House Reports: 112-277
SUMMARY AS OF:
2/18/2011--Introduced.

National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Act of 2011 - Amends the federal criminal code to authorize a person who is carrying a government-issued photographic identification document and a valid permit to carry a concealed firearm in one state, and who is not prohibited from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm under federal law, to carry a concealed handgun (other than a machinegun or destructive device) in another state in accordance with the restrictions of that state.



Note "...in another state in accordance with the restrictions of that state."

You can find all this stuff at thomas.loc.gov by entering the bill number.

ETA: This would also mean that if your state had a law prohibiting CCW permit holders from, say, going armed into a bar, someone from out of state with a CCW permit couldn't carry in a bar either.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, November 17, 2011 3:43 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Essentially, all it does is say that you can carry into another state (but you must obey the laws of that state).

I guess a good example would be VA and NJ. If I carried into NJ, my pistol couldnt have more than 10 rounds, and they couldn't be hollow points. (Stupid laws, but hey... its a liberal state).

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Thursday, November 17, 2011 3:06 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Essentially, all it does is say that you can carry into another state (but you must obey the laws of that state).




Then you were posting some odd information earlier, it seems.

Quote:

All HR 822 does is say that everyone who has passed the tests for a CCW, can exercise that right in ALL states.



Was this a talking point? Or did you intentionally leave off the part about "in accordance with the laws of those other states"?


Quote:


I would argue that if this bill were to pass, states like California, Maryland, New Jersey etc would become safer places.

But it would also cause quite a fuss, as the people in these states would start to get outraged.

"Why does someone from Virginia (in Maryland) have more rights than I (who live in Maryland) do?!!"

THAT is why certain groups, in my opinion, are fighting so hard against it.

ETA: Essentially, this bill kills gun control. Granted, it keeps the idea that we need a permit to exercise our 2a rights, but its a good start.





Quote:


If it does get made into law, places like New York City, and California will never be the same again. But in a good way.

Think on it. Families and friends will be able to visit relatives in these places, and have the tools to keep them safe.

Citizens there, will start to question why they are not allowed to protect themselves.

Everything will change, but for the better.

I guess a good example would be VA and NJ. If I carried into NJ, my pistol couldnt have more than 10 rounds, and they couldn't be hollow points. (Stupid laws, but hey... its a liberal state).






Please explain and clarify. If "all this does is say that you can carry into another state (but you must obey the laws of that state)", then how does that make Virginia, Maryland, New Jersey, or California "safer places", if you must obey their laws?

And why would people in those states "start to get outraged" if you aren't being granted any special privileges that they themselves aren't granted? And why would you say that some armed person from out of state now has more rights than someone who lives in that state?

And how does it kill gun control, if it states that you must obey the laws of other states, while not striking down or doing away with their laws?

How does it change everything for the better? By forcing you to buy lower-capacity magazines and other types of ammunition before visiting certain states? Aren't you outraged that the federal government is trying to mandate that you buy certain things in order to protect your health?


"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, November 17, 2011 3:18 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Some states are highly selective about who gets to carry a concealed firearm.

It is Wulf's belief that visitors from Gunstates will make the Otherstates safer, because they will be carrying concealed firearms with them on their trips to these states.

It is Wulf's belief that natives of Otherstates will resent the privileges granted to Gunstate visitors, who may have permits that are not readily available in their home state.

That Otherstate restrictions must be abided by (i.e. Can't carry into a bar. Can't carry a gun with a low melting point. Can't carry high capacity magazines) is considered inconvenient still, but the ability to carry concealed at all is considered a boon.

My own discomfort with this Bill has nothing to do with guns and everything to do with states' rights.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, November 18, 2011 2:22 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Know I'm late to the game on this, but not being a gun owner, or one who travels across state lines with a gun, I'm kinda split on this one.

Hearing how stupid it is that a responsible gun owner, registered and allowed to carry a gun in 1 state, has to fill out paper work in any state they wish to travel through, assuming those states even ALLOW one to carry and conceal, it kinda makes sense.

But this law, kinda forces the issue of reciprocity on everyone.

I see how this could cause a rift , even between those who are all for the 2nd Amendment.

Tough call.



"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Friday, November 18, 2011 3:04 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Some states are highly selective about who gets to carry a concealed firearm.

It is Wulf's belief that visitors from Gunstates will make the Otherstates safer, because they will be carrying concealed firearms with them on their trips to these states.

It is Wulf's belief that natives of Otherstates will resent the privileges granted to Gunstate visitors, who may have permits that are not readily available in their home state.

That Otherstate restrictions must be abided by (i.e. Can't carry into a bar. Can't carry a gun with a low melting point. Can't carry high capacity magazines) is considered inconvenient still, but the ability to carry concealed at all is considered a boon.

My own discomfort with this Bill has nothing to do with guns and everything to do with states' rights.

--Anthony





Indeed. And it can't be both of the things Wulf says it is. It either makes it legal to do whatever you do in your state, in every state, or it means you have to follow the specific laws laid out in each state. Those are mutually exclusive in many cases.

And if it only means you have to follow the laws of the state you're traveling into, it's unnecessary, since those laws are already in place.

I think it's more of an attempt to force more-restrictive states to adopt looser laws - a reciprocity agreement, in other words. This isn't the first time the GOP has tried to push such measures, which essentially state that all states have to recognize and reciprocate the laws of the LEAST-restrictive states.

Of course, there's also the issue of whether the less restrictive states are actually any safer. For instance, Arizona is one of the least restrictive states in the nation when it comes to guns, but we keep being told that Phoenix is the kidnapping capitol of the nation.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, November 18, 2011 5:38 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Indeed. And it can't be both of the things Wulf says it is. It either makes it legal to do whatever you do in your state, in every state, or it means you have to follow the specific laws laid out in each state."

Hello,

Well, it allows you to use your home state's concealed weapons permit even if you don't meet the issuing requirements in the new state.

All OTHER rules must be followed (to my knowledge) including gun type rules, location rules, etc.

But the mere fact that it allows people to carry concealed when the state they are visiting may not have chosen to grant them such a right is the issue.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, November 18, 2011 5:51 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Of course, there's also the issue of whether the less restrictive states are actually any safer."

Hello,

I don't think it matters. I used to, but I've decided it doesn't. I think Wulf is off on a tangent of imagined futures with such an argument.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, November 18, 2011 7:02 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


I'm having a hard time imagining that the group this Bill seems to pertain to is very large. Are there really that many people taking their guns across state lines that have had it up to HERE trying to keep track of all the restrictions and fact checking they need to do to get it right?? "Can I take hollow points to Indiana? What about my Glock? Argh, what a bother! That's it - I'm writing my Congress person - this research every time I travel is intolerable!"

So I'm guessing the group behind this isn't the accumulation of a lot of put out citizens.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Friday, November 18, 2011 8:21 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I can tell you from personal experience that this can be a real hassle, especially when planning a road trip.

Which states have reciprocal agreements (aka when do I have to put my gun in a box the trunk of my car?)

Which states have magazine limits?

Which states have melting point 'saturday night special' laws? (What's the melting point of your firearm? Egads.)

Which states prohibit certain ammunition types?

Which states prohibit certain calibers?

If you don't want to be arrested or have your gun confiscated (probably permanently) then you have to know this before driving through the U.S. with a firearm.

I'd liken it to a driver having to research which hubcaps were legal in each state before driving through.

Now, of course not everyone takes firearms on road trips, but if you do, it is a real pain in the neck.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, November 18, 2011 11:17 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


And to think of all the road trips I've been on without a gun... I feel so irresponsible now.
Maybe it is me, maybe I'm in the minority. I know when I found out how many posters here owned guns I was very surprised. Still, can't help but think this only effects a very few and that there have to be more important things for congress to be working on.
Obvious this is very important to the NRA.

"I'd liken it to a driver having to research which hubcaps were legal in each state before driving through. " That's funny - haven't done that one either, I feel so bad.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 8:55 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


As of today I'm back on the fence, because that is a hastle to check all that stuff. But I do like states' rights ... I'm glad I don't have to vote on it. I'd probably end up just picking one side, yes or no, and hope it turns out right for me and mine.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 3:57 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I can tell you from personal experience that this can be a real hassle, especially when planning a road trip.

Which states have reciprocal agreements (aka when do I have to put my gun in a box the trunk of my car?)

Which states have magazine limits?

Which states have melting point 'saturday night special' laws? (What's the melting point of your firearm? Egads.)

Which states prohibit certain ammunition types?

Which states prohibit certain calibers?

If you don't want to be arrested or have your gun confiscated (probably permanently) then you have to know this before driving through the U.S. with a firearm.

I'd liken it to a driver having to research which hubcaps were legal in each state before driving through.

Now, of course not everyone takes firearms on road trips, but if you do, it is a real pain in the neck.

--Anthony


I swear, sometimes y'all remind me of someone arguing about what caliber of bullet hit em while bleeding to death, instead of slapping a compress on it...

SHALL. NOT. BE. INFRINGED.

Them is FOUR fucking words, people, none of which individually are in the slighest doubt, as a single phrase even less so.

It says what it says.

And little bullshit workarounds like say, requiring a permit, and then refusing to issue any, as Flint did at one time till Governor Granholm (A Democrat, mind you) put her foot up their ass about it, is exactly the same - just dressed up prettier.

Again....
SHALL. NOT. BE. INFRINGED.

Is my position clear enough ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 3:58 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
And to think of all the road trips I've been on without a gun... I feel so irresponsible now.
Maybe it is me, maybe I'm in the minority. I know when I found out how many posters here owned guns I was very surprised. Still, can't help but think this only effects a very few and that there have to be more important things for congress to be working on.
Obvious this is very important to the NRA.

"I'd liken it to a driver having to research which hubcaps were legal in each state before driving through. " That's funny - haven't done that one either, I feel so bad.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com




I'm a gun owner, and a sometimes carrier, but I rarely take them on road trips with me. Last time I did was in 2000, when I took a 3-week road trip from Austin to Moab and points in between. Three weeks on the road, alone, no cell phone or other communications, and not a single night spent indoors. I had a 9mm handgun, a couple magazines of ammo, and a handful of knives, all strategically placed around the car, just in case.

I tend to keep knives, clubs, and such in the cars anyway, but not guns for the most part.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, November 21, 2011 4:20 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

I'm a gun owner, and a sometimes carrier, but I rarely take them on road trips with me. Last time I did was in 2000, when I took a 3-week road trip from Austin to Moab and points in between. Three weeks on the road, alone, no cell phone or other communications, and not a single night spent indoors. I had a 9mm handgun, a couple magazines of ammo, and a handful of knives, all strategically placed around the car, just in case.

I tend to keep knives, clubs, and such in the cars anyway, but not guns for the most part.




Sounds like you have bought into the Great Fear. Did you have anything of value on you? I mean, apart from the gun?
I do always try and carry a decent wine opener... *raises pinky*

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Monday, November 21, 2011 4:35 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I've been attacked for less. I'm glad you haven't, Pizmo, and have no Great Fear.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Monday, November 21, 2011 4:55 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I've been attacked for less. I'm glad you haven't, Pizmo, and have no Great Fear.




Very sorry to hear that Anthony. I imagine it's very hard to lose that feeling once it happens. I'm also sorry to say that any sense of fear of what greater danger might happen has only started to creep into my consciousness since I started reading and posting here. I have always stayed away from bad areas and been very watchful, and with the exception of my brother who was held up outside of an adult club in a bad part of town, I have never had or known of a bad experience. There's always the possibility that I'm being completely dense too.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Monday, November 21, 2011 5:07 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I imagine that being the victim of violence is a lot like being struck by lightning. It’s rare enough that tales of such things can seem faraway and almost fanciful. The average person may live their entire lives without encountering the bolt from the blue. But for those who have tripped the volt fantastic, it probably seems like a very real and ever-present concern.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Monday, November 21, 2011 5:45 AM

BYTEMITE


I have to say, I'm not sure why this law is necessary. Utah has extreme and ridiculously strict laws about the transport of fireworks and alcohol and guns into the state (Mormons) even though gun control IN the state is pretty lax. But that's never stopped people from smuggling them in from Colorado. And while the cops will border camp looking for smugglers, it really isn't that well enforced.

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Monday, November 21, 2011 8:15 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Feh, where I go, the popgun goes - if it's on your person, it's wherever you are.

But consider this: you do not have a spare tire, fire extinguisher, smoke alarm cause you intend to need them, but rather that in NOT having one when you DO need one can be disastrous, yes ?

Ergo, the same for a pistol, better to never in your life need it, but should a situation come to be where having one would be wise, and you don't...
The consequences can be every bit as disastrous.

Now, if you wanna accept that risk, that's your biz - what you AIN'T got, no way, no how, is any right to tell me *I* MUST accept that risk, and go without, no more than I feel you could demand I dispense with my smoke alarm, fire extinguisher, or spare tire.

It's a tool, an object, a THING, assigning motive to an inanimate object, as so many do, is simply purile fantasy and speaks ill of the mental state of those who would do so.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, November 21, 2011 8:17 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
I have to say, I'm not sure why this law is necessary. Utah has extreme and ridiculously strict laws about the transport of fireworks and alcohol and guns into the state (Mormons) even though gun control IN the state is pretty lax. But that's never stopped people from smuggling them in from Colorado. And while the cops will border camp looking for smugglers, it really isn't that well enforced.


I recall a certain period when Ms Pulling and others were expounding on the evilness of D&D that Utah banned the sale and import thereof for as long as it took for said act to be pitched out on Constitutional grounds...
And yanno, I made DAMN good money on that since it occured as I was dealing with some of the wacky weirdness out there I have alluded to before.

Prohibition does not work.

-F

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Monday, November 21, 2011 8:34 AM

BYTEMITE


Funny story, my parents actually fell for the "evils of D&D" stuff (and video games!) despite not being overly religious. Full on jocks versus geeks mindset.

It's taken me years to not see my writing and artwork as not something that's inherently contemptible just because it's sci-fi and fantasy. Now I've been part of a few D&D sessions and my brother plays Warhammer 40K and table top regularly. I think my parents have just kind of resigned themselves to us ignoring all their warnings.

But in any case, yes. Prohibition doesn't work, and illegalizing ideas/objects and not crime seems pretty pointless to me.

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