REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Are we too sensitive?

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Thursday, December 15, 2011 10:28
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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 9:11 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


That was my first thought when I saw this on the news:
Quote:


Dutch architecture firm MVRDV said they proposed its “Cloud” design because it challenged the mundane shape of the typical skyscraper. A pair of luxury residential towers in Seoul would be joined in the middle by a cloud-like shape, billowing out like a tutu around two legs.

(I saw film of the "cloud" part, and it looked really NEAT to me! This is the CNN report I saw on it; I couldn't live in one of those "cloud" apartments, but I think they look really neat and innovative!)



But when a press release went out about the design on Dec. 7, announcing the residences as part of a plan to extend the city’s business district, a playful cumulonimbus is not the image many saw. Instead, some were taken back to 9/11, and the smoke that filled the sky after the planes hit the World Trade Center.

Some media outlets stoked this fire. The Los Angeles Times, for example, leads their story by saying that the proposed high-rises categorically “evoke New York’s World Trade Center towers in mid-explosion in the terrifying moments after the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.” But, the Dutch firm said in an apology, that was not the case for everyone.
Quote:

“The Cloud was designed based on parameters such as sunlight, outside spaces, living quality for inhabitants and the city,” they wrote. “It was not our intention to create an image resembling the attacks, nor did we see the resemblance during the design process. We sincerely apologize to anyone whose feelings we have hurt, it was not our intention.”
It seems reasonable that no firm that wanted to stay in business would champion such a plan if that connection were known. The blowback the firm describes on their Facebook page is another testament to that line of logic. “A real media storm has started,” they wrote, “and we [received] threatening emails and calls of angry people calling us Al Qaeda lovers or worse.”

Recognizing that the design is legitimately upsetting for some, and assuming that the firm truly didn’t see the connection, where does the fault lie? Did the firm fail to be sufficiently thoughtful about what the design might dredge up for some people, particularly Americans? Is there also a mistake being made by concentrating so heavily on that symbolism?

In any case, the developer has said that the design for the high-rises is still up in the air, and after this PR debacle, it seems unlikely that MVRDV will be coming away with the bid. http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/12/12/critics-say-korean-skyscraper-desi
gn-evokes-exploding-twin-towers/

I'm actually kinda sad if they don't build it.
I'm guessing maybe if they put the "cloud" apartments at the TOP, nobody would have noticed.

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 9:41 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I heard about this on the radio, and was curious as to what it looked like. Almost anything 'twin towers' , from the get go, is going to remind folks of the WTC towers. And yes, from first glance, it does have a strong similarity to an exploding WTC photo, when shown in a side by side comparison.

But here's the thing... who'd want their design to remind people of that terrible day, and who'd want to LIVE / work in such a building ?

Upon closer inspection, it's a pretty cool design. with jutting units and trees / gardens on the various roof tops.

Pretty innocent, had it come out before 9/11. But now ? Of course, most NYers are going to say it reminds them of the WTC towers. How could they not ?

I think it's a cool concept, but suffers from just dumb luck of the reality of a post 9/11 world.

*edit* And my guess is, that structurally speaking, there's no way to put the 'clouds' on the upper floors, as it would make the building too top heavy. Too low, and it kinda defeats the purpose, that of the concept of a tower soaring through the clouds. I think they can still go w/ the general idea, but not make it look so similar to 9/11.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 10:19 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)







Perhaps we are a bit sensitive about this, but it's really hard to look at the proposed building and NOT be instantly reminded of the horrific images of 9-11.

Do they have the right to do this? Certainly. Seems a bit crass, though, and I don't for a second buy the idea that nobody ever saw the similarity.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 10:28 AM

EVILDINOSAUR


I wish I had seen the building before reading the article. After reading the article, yes, it looks eerily like the twin towers exploding. I can't say for sure if I would have seen that so readily before having the connection made for me by the article.

Maybe if there was more color difference between the building and the "cloud" like a darker building to offset a lighter colored cloud. Maybe more rounded and less sharp corners. I dunno, I can't see a friendly cloud in that.

Obviously (at least to me) the designers weren't intending to make that connection.

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 11:15 AM

BYTEMITE


I think they ought to make it a big glass looking donut instead. Why go all blocky when you can have a SLEEK looking design? And if it's rainy, they can still evoke the idea of a cloud that way.

I mostly think it's a dumb design, and part and parcel of my belief that modern architects have no taste whatsoever.

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 12:12 PM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
I think they ought to make it a big glass looking donut instead.


You want impressive? Screw the glass and steel, build me a building out of an actual doughnut.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 1:10 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Yes, we are too sensitive. It wouldn't be so bad if the design weren't so damn ugly to boot.

Apparently all the creative architects have moved to Dubai.










-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 1:32 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


I think it's a cool concept, but suffers from just dumb luck of the reality of a post 9/11 world.




Dumb luck or planned publicity??
I mean, they just got half the US to look at it, how many other countries are looking at it today?

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 2:50 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Even I think it looks like the twin towers, maybe they can tweek it a bit so it looks less like them? I wouldn't want to live in that building anyways, its funny looking and weird.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, December 14, 2011 7:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Don't fall over, Raptor, but I agree with you 100%
Quote:

Upon closer inspection, it's a pretty cool design. with jutting units and trees / gardens on the various roof tops.
Quote:

Upon closer inspection, it's a pretty cool design. with jutting units and trees / gardens on the various roof tops.
It's a shame people see what they do, but I guess it's inevitable. Betcha it's mostly Americans who see the resemblance, which is why I wondered if we're not too sensitive.

Are those actually BUILDINGS in Dubai, or just architectural drawings? Those are WILD!

I disagree about the idea that they did it to get publicity...I don't think anyone wants that kind of publicity, and the article said their chances of winning the contract are less because of the controversy.



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Wednesday, December 14, 2011 7:53 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Are those actually BUILDINGS in Dubai, or just architectural drawings? Those are WILD!

Those are drawings and proposed projects, I believe.

These are real buildings.

http://dubai-architecture.info/TEN-DUBAI.htm







Here are some more Dubai projects underway.
http://dubai-architecture.info/DUB-GAL1.htm

Palm Islands


World Islands (project under construction, halted)




-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Wednesday, December 14, 2011 7:57 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Wow. Those are quite impressive ENOUGH! I guess that's where all the money's gone...and all the architects, too, obviously!

Those "islands" are freaky--they're not connected, so I'm guessing each island is an individual dwelling or something? Heaven help them when the ocean levels start rising...

ETA: Got it. Went to that link; apparently at least one of the "palm islands" already exist--with a couple more in planning, and they're resorts with villas. The "world islands" will be 300 separate islands costing $25-30 million each; ergo, private dwellings I assume.

Totally freaky...what happens when the world economy collapses, and how can they support themselves even NOW??? I guess we know where the 1%ers have gone...


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Wednesday, December 14, 2011 8:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ahhh, most interesting. Following it up, it appears the "world" islands are SINKING already, with only one island inhabited:
Quote:

But the World, the ambitiously-constructed archipelago of islands shaped like the countries of the globe, is sinking back into the sea, according to evidence cited before a property tribunal.

The islands were intended to be developed with tailor-made hotel complexes and luxury villas, and sold to millionaires. They are off the coast of Dubai and accessible by yacht or motor boat.

Now their sands are eroding and the navigational channels between them are silting up, the British lawyer for a company bringing a case against the state-run developer, Nakheel, has told judges.

"The islands are gradually falling back into the sea," Richard Wilmot-Smith QC, for Penguin Marine, said. The evidence showed "erosion and deterioration of The World islands", he added.

With all but one of the islands still uninhabited – Greenland – and that one a showpiece owned by the ruler of Dubai, most of the development plans have been brought to a crashing halt by the financial crisis.

So the financial crisis hit Dubai, too, after all:
Quote:

In a 2009 article describing the collapsing Dubai economy, The New York Times reported that the Palm was sinking and this has been confirmed now by geological surveys, at the moment it is 5 millimetres (0.20 in) per year but this could increase rapidly. Furthermore there are many reported cases where people had bought houses before they were built and are furious about the space available now and the way they seem to be living on top of each other.
All in all, looks like their ambitious plans aren't working out as well as they'd like.

Most of the projects at that link were slated to be completed by 2009; do you know what happened? I admit I"m pretty ignorant when it comes to Dubai, and from what I found, in 2009 they started crashing:
Quote:

Dubai has been slapped down. Half of all construction projects are on hold, the stock market value has tumbled 70%, and banks aren't lending. The government is doing everything it can to make the news seem less dire, but word has been flooding out.

Expats are so terrified of being locked up for owing money on their condos that they're fleeing the crippled city in droves, some taping notes of apology to their Beemers in the airport parking lots as they fly for safety. With the country ending 55,000 residency visas in January alone, nearly twice the rate of a year ago, foreigners are given no choice but to run like hell.

Debtor's prisons? What the Dickens?

Mainstream American observers were outraged and called for a boycott of such a draconian government while a major American tour operator, IsramWorld, which run trips to 56 countries pulled the plug on further tours to Dubai. A new mantra rose among tourism leaders: "Bye-bye, Dubai."

Since then, Dubai's tourism reputation has crumbled.
.....
The famous Queen Elizabeth 2 ocean liner, retired last year by Cunard, was supposed to become a floating luxury hotel, but now it looks like she may end up on the scrap heap instead of with a velvet rope around her. Plans for Dubai versions of four American theme parks, including a Busch Gardens and a SeaWorld to be built on an artificial island shaped like Shamu, are now on ice. The Palm Trump Hotel and Tower is dead, as are plans to construct a building that's one kilometer tall. Dubai already has the world's tallest building, the Burj Dubai, although it's largely empty -- a tombstone to the city's high life.

So what's the story now, do you know?

It appears the Palm Island (at least one of them) still exist as of 2010.



I'm not surprised people who bought in are screaming bloody murder; they're crammed together like sardines!


Seems weird to me, contrary to nature and I expect Nature to take it back. But fascinating nonetheless, all of it...





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Wednesday, December 14, 2011 8:37 AM

BYTEMITE


The main down side about the Mercator projection is that it distorts latitude and longitude, but a butterfly projection that avoids that is more difficult to grid or use for navigation.

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Wednesday, December 14, 2011 10:54 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

Don't fall over, Raptor, but I agree with you 100%

Quote:

Upon closer inspection, it's a pretty cool design. with jutting units and trees / gardens on the various roof tops.


It's a shame people see what they do, but I guess it's inevitable. Betcha it's mostly Americans who see the resemblance, which is why I wondered if we're not too sensitive.




Don't fall over, but I agree with both of you. BUT, I don't think it's just Americans who see the resemblance. 9/11 was a pretty iconic day and a pretty iconic bunch of images, and the whole world saw.

ETA: Just tossing this out as a hypothetical, but would anyone's opinion of this structure change if it were being proposed as, say, a mosque or community center somewhere, like maybe a few blocks from Ground Zero?

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Wednesday, December 14, 2011 11:11 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:


Wow. Those are quite impressive ENOUGH! I guess that's where all the money's gone...and all the architects, too, obviously!

Those "islands" are freaky--they're not connected, so I'm guessing each island is an individual dwelling or something? Heaven help them when the ocean levels start rising...

ETA: Got it. Went to that link; apparently at least one of the "palm islands" already exist--with a couple more in planning, and they're resorts with villas. The "world islands" will be 300 separate islands costing $25-30 million each; ergo, private dwellings I assume.

Totally freaky...what happens when the world economy collapses, and how can they support themselves even NOW??? I guess we know where the 1%ers have gone...




Thing is, Niki, Dubai *KNOWS* for a fact that their oil is running out. That's why they're building things like this. They know the only hope they have for a sustainable future is to become a tourism destination and/or a financial/commercial hub, which is why they're putting such a huge amount of their oil money into these projects.

There are also indoor ski slopes (IN THE ARABIAN DESERT!), indoor golf, an entire Ferrari-themed shopping mall, a fantastic Formula One race track right on the marina ( http://www.homedit.com/yas-marina-hotel-in-abu-dhabi/ ) - the race track actually goes UNDER the hotel, and can be watched by yachts in the harbor, and more. Dubai is keen to become something like another Monaco, a place where the rich go to play and be seen.

Oh, and it apparently has quite a starring role in the new "Mission: Impossible" movie, along with the Burj Dubai (or Burj Khalifa, I forget what it's called now, but the name changed between building and completion somehow), which is the world's tallest building by a big amount. It's more than a full half-mile tall, more than double the height of the WTC towers.



Here you can get a sense of scale between the Burj Khalifa and the rest of the downtown area:



Quite incredible, no doubt.

What will they do when the sea levels begin rising? I'm sure they'll figure it out. Probably hire the Dutch. ;)

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, December 14, 2011 12:12 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quite incredible, no doubt.

They may be short on money right now, but they weren't short on creativity. Gotta appreciate it when people dream up stuff like this.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Wednesday, December 14, 2011 12:41 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Yeah, the crash hit them, too. I saw some news stories where Ferraris were being abandoned on the sides of the road, just left there, because they'd been bought and then couldn't be paid for, so they sat there collecting dust.

Here's one:

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2011/09/ferrari-enzo-abandoned-rott
ing-away-in-dubai-impound.html




Bear in mind that car cost $600,000 when new. 400 were made (399 for sale, #400 a gift to the Pope from Ferrari). Used, they sell for around $1.3 million.

Anyone want a nice used car?



"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, December 14, 2011 8:06 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I have ill opinions of Dubai, we all know its where guys who keep their wives shut up inside go to let it all hang out and go wild, apparently indescretion is okay if its on vacation in Dubai, kind of like Raisa on TNG. But the locked up stuck-inside proper wives? They're still stuck at home.

Note that this is an opinion piece and I know that not everyone who goes to Dubai does this, but I bet the percentage is higher than you'd like to admit.

But yeah their buildings are cool and who doesn't like fararis?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, December 15, 2011 7:39 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


The abandonment of Feraris is just one example of what happens; because they have debtor prisons, anyone who can't make payments on the fancy crap they bought tries to get out of the country. It's the only way to survive. I got caught up in that Palm thing; apparently it does exist and is lived in, tho' the others are just in the planning/creation stages. Have a feeling this will all come crashing down on their heads (it did, for a while, but from what I've read they are rich again), given the global economic crisis. There's just too much built on "riches", and when the riches go down...

From all I read and the videos I watched, it's like another plane of existence, one where the poor are REALLY poor and are nearly slaves, and everything fancy is built on fantasy and dependent on REALLY rich people.



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Thursday, December 15, 2011 8:03 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

From all I read and the videos I watched, it's like another plane of existence, one where the poor are REALLY poor and are nearly slaves, and everything fancy is built on fantasy and dependent on REALLY rich people.



In other words, it's the GOP's vision of Utopia!

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Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:33 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
I have ill opinions of Dubai, we all know its where guys who keep their wives shut up inside go to let it all hang out and go wild, apparently indescretion is okay if its on vacation in Dubai, kind of like Raisa on TNG. But the locked up stuck-inside proper wives? They're still stuck at home.




Don't hate the playa, hate the game....

j/k



"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Thursday, December 15, 2011 10:28 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:


Here you can get a sense of scale between the Burj Khalifa and the rest of the downtown area:





Disneyland for very rich adults.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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