REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Iran threatens Europe

POSTED BY: PIZMOBEACH
UPDATED: Thursday, February 24, 2022 20:54
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Thursday, February 16, 2012 2:22 PM

BYTEMITE


I don't think history is supported by the majority of people being SUICIDAL.

Where a mass tragedy occurred, it was the result of sociopathy having no consequences. Not being trusting or outright darwinian stupidity. MAD scenarios are the reality, otherwise the US and Russia would have wiped each other out.

You calling me trusting, that's funny. Trust factors into it not at all. I only expect people to be smart enough that they're looking out for their best interests... Provided their minds aren't twisted by propaganda.

The poll I posted, despite an uncertainty about the US and Israel and the browbeating of their leadership, does not suggest the people of Iran particularly have it in for either of us. This is not imminent danger, especially coupled with the fact that they don't have the technology to produce a nuke.

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 2:28 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:

My admitted limited understanding is that it's obvious to inspectors the difference between what's used and needed, both in hardware and nuclear goo stuff, for bombs versus making electricity - that's what inspectors get paid for.


And even inspectors are saying that the flat plates and the type of centrifuges they're using could only be used to generate reactor fuel. Which is the same thing I've been saying.

I'm not risking a million lives first because I'm not in charge, second because I'm against a war in which a million people would die WITHOUT nuclear weapons involved, and third because there's no risk. They can't do something with technology they DON'T HAVE.

But even if they HAD it, or were working to develop it, and had the capacity? They'd be just like all the other rogue nations we thought were going to go attacking other nations around them like crazy. They would be cowed by MAD. Therefore still no risk.



Inspectors have said many things:

http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Documents/Board/2011/gov2011-65.pdf

43. The information indicates that Iran has carried out the following activities that are relevant to the development of a nuclear explosive device:
• Efforts, some successful, to procure nuclear related and dual use equipment and materials by military related individuals and entities (Annex, Sections C.1 and C.2);
• Efforts to develop undeclared pathways for the production of nuclear material (Annex, Section C.3);
• The acquisition of nuclear weapons development information and documentation from a clandestine nuclear supply network (Annex, Section C.4); and
• Work on the development of an indigenous design of a nuclear weapon including the testing of components (Annex, Sections C.5–C.12).
44. While some of the activities identified in the Annex have civilian as well as military applications, others are specific to nuclear weapons.

Byte - you have no idea what technology they have and you have no idea what their intentions are, as much as you may believe it you simply cannot make any guarantees.
I think you're projecting some phantom anger toward Iran and bad intentions toward them onto those of us who don't agree with you as well. None of us in this thread want a war, with or without nukes.



Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 2:28 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

"basing threat assessment on statistical probability" is what Israel has been doing - what % do you think is ok with them with the stakes being so high? 1%?


Hello,

Israel has to decide for Israel. And they always have.

But as for us? I'm not happy to throw another hundred-thousand souls into the meat grinder based on a 'might be.'

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Thursday, February 16, 2012 2:33 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I, as Anthony has said, don't want to get into another war about someone maybe having WMDs. We did that before and it didn't go well and I don't want to do it again.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 2:42 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
I don't think history is supported by the majority of people being SUICIDAL.

Where a mass tragedy occurred, it was the result of sociopathy having no consequences. Not being trusting or outright darwinian stupidity. MAD scenarios are the reality, otherwise the US and Russia would have wiped each other out.

You calling me trusting, that's funny. Trust factors into it not at all. I only expect people to be smart enough that they're looking out for their best interests... Provided their minds aren't twisted by propaganda.

The poll I posted, despite an uncertainty about the US and Israel, does not suggest the people of Iran particularly have it in for either of us. This is not imminent danger, especially coupled with the fact that they don't have the technology to produce a nuke.



Suicidal? Um, the region is actually kind of known for using suicide as a tactic!
And, leaders have shown they don't have any problem sacrificing their own people either.
How many deaths in the Iran-Iraq war? I like this little tidbit, gives you a sense of how much the lives of the people are considered:

"Iran's government is said to have "become famous" for its use of human waves to clear minefields or draw enemy fire during the war. While very costly in human lives, the tactic sometimes worked."

Yeah, it worked! So I discount the concern for retribution from using a nuke as being thought of as suicide.

The poll you posted was from 2007 btw, the height of Bush's highly successful assassination tour of the US image internationally, another loon that would have probably gladly pushed the button.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 2:45 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
I, as Anthony has said, don't want to get into another war about someone maybe having WMDs. We did that before and it didn't go well and I don't want to do it again.



That's why I'm really cautiously optimistic about the news that Iran wants to continue talks. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in Israel's defense dept...

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 2:46 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Many of those guys do seem to have a low regard for their people's lives, as well as their own.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 4:18 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I'm confused. However the translation comes out, the basic idea is that "occupation regime over Jerusalem" must be wiped out. Isn't the only "regime" occupying Jerusalem Israel? How is that phraseology any different than the sentiment that Israel must be wiped out? Any way you put it, the "regime" over Jerusalem IS Israel, isn't it?



It helps if you don't equate the "regime" in charge to equaling the entire nation and all of its people. For instance, when the Bush regime was in charge, were you advocating the arrest and jailing of the entire nation of America, or just the Bush regime? I wanted the regime occupying Washington D.C. to be relegated to the dustbin of history (Ahmedinejad's words), but that wasn't a reference to wiping American off the map, was it? Wasn't it more a wishing for a future date when all the badness of that corrupt and ruinous regime would be forever behind us?

Quote:


As to nobody using nukes, I wouldn't bet the store on it. We're NOT "sophisticated" enough to guarantee nobody will, and there are crazies in every country. Given the state of our armed forces and how they're scattered around, given our current weakness, given China and Russia being firmly behind Iran and THEIR power, who can guarantee someone hasn't worked out the situation in such a way as to believe it would end up with them "winning"?

Sorry, I don't place that much faith in mankind's common sense. I'm not convinced Iran necessarily WILL, but I'm not convinced it's impossible.



My bet is America will nuke Iran before Iran nukes anyone. We already have a track record of behaving in such a manner, more than once.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 4:30 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Quote:

In existence since Biblical times,"


I'm not sure it's fair to say Iran has been in existence since Biblical times. The dirt has been there since Biblical times, but not a continuous government. We (the West) have indeed been messing with them since before WWII, and we (the British and USSR) ousted one of their more progressive leaders in 1941 and we (the United States) kicked out their rightfully elected leadership in the 50's and replaced him with a tool. Our tool. That guy was so bad that the people eventually overthrew him. The Iran of today only came into being in the 1970's.

Quote:

"If all the big, powerful, Christian nations of the world have nuclear power, then it is only fair that we, Iran, should have nuclear power."


Yes, but perhaps more importantly, "If we are able to advance ourselves and develop nuclear power, by what right do you stop us?"

Quote:

Iran (and perhaps other Arab neighbors) "need to sell oil to survive." How come?


Well, it's a resource. Nations tend to use their resources as survival assets. Israel doesn't have much in the way of oil, but if they did I'd wager they'd be selling it, too. They sell the resources they do have, after all.

But I wonder how well we'd tolerate it if Iran ever wanted to stop selling oil. Some people would probably roll the drums of war for that offense.



And with that, we've come full circle to where and how this thread started! Thanks, Anthony, for that.

Quote:


Quote:

If they are this impractical, it is no wonder that no one wants them to have nuclear power. Heck! Now that I've thought it over, I don't want them to have nuclear power.


It shouldn't be our call. But even if we could have our way with the wave of a magic wand... Iran's trying to move into the late 20th century, and saying 'no' because they are 'impractical' seems to me like saying, "You are too barbaric for us to allow you any advancement out of your barbarity."





So who is "practical" enough to have such power?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 6:16 PM

BYTEMITE


IAEA - "International Atomic Energy Commission."

I think you completely missed the parts of that report that indicate that the IAEA is just fine with Iran pursuing commercial uses of enriched uranium.

You, on the other hand, are against them having that, because you think it's like some sort of gateway drug to nuclear apocalypse.

Iran is claiming they have new generation centrifuges, a bold claim that doesn't hold much weight and which seems to be an effort to win support from the public for Ahmedinejad. Altogether this indicates they are really far behind and lying to save face about how much they've accomplished.

Schematics and research and attempts at reverse engineering is not the same thing as successful tests, which is not the same thing as prototype technology or having that technology available. It also says nothing about their immediate intentions to wipe Israel off the map, which itself appears to be propaganda and entirely unfeasible, like the ant biting the anteater.

They don't have the technology.

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 6:34 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:


Suicidal? Um, the region is actually kind of known for using suicide as a tactic!



Wow, that's not at all an offensive stereotype about the middle east. Yeah, everyone in the middle east is a suicide bomber, or will become one. The average farmer is just so dangerous and crazy.

You don't seem to understand the very specific conditions required for a Muslim to be considered a martyr by their religion. Getting curb stomped after phenomenal stupidity isn't a martyr suicide tactic.

It appears you still haven't read that poll I linked to, showing that Iran does have it's moderates.

This is twice now in several months that I've heard you say and take positions I think are completely reprehensible, to the point that I start to think I don't want to talk to you anymore. I imagine I will respond to you again in another thread anyway because I forget, but I'm certainly wishing right now that I'd stuck to my original decision.

Perhaps you are too. Maybe I should try again.

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 6:49 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

This is twice now in several months that I've heard you say and take positions I think are completely reprehensible


Hello,

I don't think Piz is evil. Or at least I don't remember Piz being evil, and he's been around a while. Likely there's just a couple key areas where his train tracks and yours don't intersect.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Thursday, February 16, 2012 7:06 PM

BYTEMITE


Then maybe he should be more careful about the information supplied to him by the american military and the media.

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 7:09 PM

OONJERAH



Quote Kwicko: "So who is 'practical' enough to have such power?"

No one. So how are we gonna unHave it?

Quote PismoBeach on Iran: "They need to sell oil to survive."

Israel doesn't have to sell oil to survive. The Arab nations do.

I ask again Why? If you answer this you will see why I consider them "a little people, a silly people" and far too
impractical for their own good.




"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 7:09 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
Many of those guys do seem to have a low regard for their people's lives...



Yeah, you'd almost think they were Republicans or something, they have such low regard for the lives of their countrymen...

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 7:11 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:


Israel doesn't have to sell oil to survive. The Arab nations do.

I ask again Why? If you answer this you will see why I consider them "a little people, a silly people" and far too
impractical for their own good.



That's not really how it works. I imagine Israel actually probably does get oil from hostile nations, because they buy it off a market, not from the hostile nations.

For such "little impractical people," they gave us algebra. I think it's easy to forget just how much progress can be lost when a foreign government puts up an oppressive dictator and that's overthrown by a semi-democratic religious theocracy.

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 7:13 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:

The poll you posted was from 2007 btw, the height of Bush's highly successful assassination tour of the US image internationally, another loon that would have probably gladly pushed the button.



Which is why it's all the more confusing as to WHY you'd listen to his same bunch of neo-con cronies when they're trying to sell you the exact same line of bullshit they used to sell people on the disastrous Iraq war.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 7:15 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:

Quote Kwicko: "So who is 'practical' enough to have such power?"

No one. So how are we gonna unHave it?

Quote PismoBeach on Iran: "They need to sell oil to survive."

Israel doesn't have to sell oil to survive. The Arab nations do.

I ask again Why? If you answer this you will see why I consider them "a little people, a silly people" and far too
impractical for their own good.




"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon




That's all fine and good, just as long as you realize that the U.S. has to sell oil to survive, too. It's our biggest export, after all.

So now that you've come right out and admitted that we're "a little people, a silly people", and far too impractical for our own good, where is your concern for our having nuclear weapons by the thousands?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 7:17 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:


Which is why it's all the more confusing as to WHY you'd listen to his same bunch of neo-con cronies when they're trying to sell you the exact same line of bullshit they used to sell people on the disastrous Iraq war.



It's true, Obama didn't exactly kick out the CIA leadership.

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 7:48 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Where a mass tragedy occurred, it was the result of sociopathy having no consequences.


Oh, you mean like contemporary America !

Seriously, any decent place on the planet it'd get you institutionalised, but here, it gets you elected.

What a hoot.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 7:50 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yeah, you'd almost think they were Republicans or something, they have such low regard for the lives of their countrymen...


Well, AFTER they pop outta the womb, anyways...

Yeah, not feelin merciful tonite, no.

-F

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 7:53 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
That's not really how it works. I imagine Israel actually probably does get oil from hostile nations, because they buy it off a market, not from the hostile nations.


Nope.

We're bound by Treaty, which I have pointed out in other cases is equal in authority to the US Constitution, to supply their petroleum needs over and above our own, even if we go short.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/peace%20process/guide%20to%20the%20peace%20p
rocess/memorandum%20of%20agreement%20between%20the%20governments%20of


I'd love to meet the bastards who drew THAT up and signed it in a dark alley somewhere.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 8:39 PM

OONJERAH



Quote ByteMite: "For such 'little impractical people,' they gave us algebra."

Indeed. And the alphabet. They were once great.

Quote FremdFirma: "Well, AFTER they pop outta the womb, anyways..."

Good one, Frem *laughs*

Quote Kwicko: "So now that you've come right out and admitted that we're 'a little people, a silly people,'
and far too impractical for our own good, where is your concern for our having nuclear weapons by the
thousands?"

Will you show me how to make us unHave 'em? Please. At least, we haven't nuked anyone in 65 years. *whew*
Due primarily to fear of retaliation?

Wikipedia:
"Desertification is the degradation of land in any drylands. Caused by a variety of factors, such as climate
change and human activities, desertification is one of the most significant global environmental problems."

"Dryland ecosystems are already very fragile, and can rarely sustain the increased pressures that result from
intense population growth. Many of these areas are inappropriately opened to development, when they cannot
sustain human settlements. The most common cause of desertification is the over cultivation of desert lands."

"Vegetation plays a major role in determining the biological composition of the soil. Studies have shown that,
in many environments, the rate of erosion and runoff decreases exponentially with increased vegetation cover.
Overgrazing removes this vegetation causing erosion and loss of topsoil."

Desertification and poverty: ... NM. That connection is obvious to everyone.

"Countermeasures and prevention:
Techniques exist for mitigating or reversing the effects of desertification, but there are numerous barriers
to their implementation. One of these is that the costs of adopting sustainable agricultural practices
sometimes exceed the benefits for individual farmers, even while they are socially and environmentally
beneficial. Another issue is a lack of political will, and lack of funding to support land reclamation
and anti-desertification programs."

"As there are many different types of deserts, there are also different types of desert reclamation
methodologies. An example for this is the salt-flats in the Rub' al Khali desert in Saudi-Arabia. These
salt-flats are one of the most promising desert areas for seawater agriculture and could be revitalized
without the use of freshwater or much energy."

"Farmer Managed Natural Regeneration (FMNR) is another technique that has produced successful results for
desert reclamation. Since 1980, this method to reforest degraded landscape has been applied with some success
in Niger. This simple and low-cost method has enabled farmers to regenerate some 30,000 square kilometers in Niger."

Egypt, bits n pieces:
(The Nile Valley had been developed by the Romans as a wheat bowl.)

"Climate changes and/or overgrazing around 8000 BC began to desiccate the pastoral lands of Egypt, forming the Sahara.*
Early tribal peoples migrated to the Nile River where they developed a settled agricultural economy and more centralized
society."
(*It wasn't always a desert, folks. The Nile Valley gives Egypt a barrier against full desertification. ~O)

"The introduction in 1820 of long-staple cotton, the Egyptian variety of which became notable, transformed its agriculture
into a cash-crop monoculture before the end of the century. The social effects of this were enormous: land ownership became
concentrated and many foreigners arrived, shifting production towards international markets."
(No more wheat bowl, I guess. ~O)

"The economy of Egypt is one of the most diversified in the Middle East, with sectors such as tourism, service,
agriculture and industry at almost equal production levels."

"Egypt's economy depends mainly on agriculture, media, petroleum exports, and tourism; there are also more
than three million Egyptians working abroad, mainly in Saudi Arabia, the Persian Gulf and Europe. The
completion of the Aswan High Dam in 1970 and the resultant Lake Nasser have altered the time-honored place
of the Nile River in the agriculture and ecology of Egypt. A rapidly growing population, limited arable land,
and dependence on the Nile all continue to overtax resources and stress the economy."

"The government has invested in communications and physical infrastructure. Egypt has received U.S. foreign
aid (since 1979, an average of $2.2 billion per year) and is the third-largest recipient of such funds from
the United States following the Iraq war. Its main revenues however come from tourism as well as traffic that
goes through the Suez Canal."

"Corruption is often cited by Egyptians as the main impediment to further economic growth."

Feed the people and there will be peace.


"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Friday, February 17, 2012 4:19 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:

The poll you posted was from 2007 btw, the height of Bush's highly successful assassination tour of the US image internationally, another loon that would have probably gladly pushed the button.



Which is why it's all the more confusing as to WHY you'd listen to his same bunch of neo-con cronies when they're trying to sell you the exact same line of bullshit they used to sell people on the disastrous Iraq war.




Which neo-con cronies am I listening to?

Oh look, another neo-con cronie source "misquoting" Khamenei:

“Israel will certainly be vanished… it should not, and will not remain, God Willing,” he added.

http://www.almanar.com.lb/english/adetails.php?eid=44449&frid=23&secca
tid=32&cid=23&fromval=1


What do you suppose he meant by that? Surely it loses something in the translation, almost sounds like a greeting card in English. Must be the Lebanese-con translation.

Why are you such a defender of radical Islam? Do you really think only we can suck?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Friday, February 17, 2012 4:21 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

This is twice now in several months that I've heard you say and take positions I think are completely reprehensible


Hello,

I don't think Piz is evil. Or at least I don't remember Piz being evil, and he's been around a while. Likely there's just a couple key areas where his train tracks and yours don't intersect.




Must be me droning on and on about getting us out of Afghanistan, how you can't trust any government or "leader," and wondering why we can't all get along because it seems like there's plenty for everyone. Watch yourself Anthony, don't get too close.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Friday, February 17, 2012 4:27 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
IAEA - "International Atomic Energy Commission."

I think you completely missed the parts of that report that indicate that the IAEA is just fine with Iran pursuing commercial uses of enriched uranium.

You, on the other hand, are against them having that, because you think it's like some sort of gateway drug to nuclear apocalypse.

Iran is claiming they have new generation centrifuges, a bold claim that doesn't hold much weight and which seems to be an effort to win support from the public for Ahmedinejad. Altogether this indicates they are really far behind and lying to save face about how much they've accomplished.

Schematics and research and attempts at reverse engineering is not the same thing as successful tests, which is not the same thing as prototype technology or having that technology available. It also says nothing about their immediate intentions to wipe Israel off the map, which itself appears to be propaganda and entirely unfeasible, like the ant biting the anteater.

They don't have the technology.



I would be less concerned and more trusting if the rhetoric coming from Iran was less hostile - not because I think it's right to bomb Iran, but because I think Israel and parts of the US will think so. Again, I don't want that. It's a hard concept to get - I don't take sides, I try and see outcomes from actions - what is likely to happen because dumb ass A said this stupid thing about B. I'm a simple person, all I want is to learn how to make great fried chicken.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Friday, February 17, 2012 4:43 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:


Suicidal? Um, the region is actually kind of known for using suicide as a tactic!



Wow, that's not at all an offensive stereotype about the middle east. Yeah, everyone in the middle east is a suicide bomber, or will become one. The average farmer is just so dangerous and crazy.

You don't seem to understand the very specific conditions required for a Muslim to be considered a martyr by their religion. Getting curb stomped after phenomenal stupidity isn't a martyr suicide tactic.



Wow, you have super posting powers - I wasn't going there and bam, you turned it into a stereotype so fast. You went from "suicide is used in the region as a tactic," to nearly quoting me as saying "everyone in the Middle East is a suicide bomber." I don't stand a chance against that kind of posting kung fu.

Okay, truly funny statement, not sure you meant it to be:

"Getting curb stomped after phenomenal stupidity isn't a martyr suicide tactic."

Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:

This is twice now in several months that I've heard you say and take positions I think are completely reprehensible, to the point that I start to think I don't want to talk to you anymore. I imagine I will respond to you again in another thread anyway because I forget, but I'm certainly wishing right now that I'd stuck to my original decision.

Perhaps you are too. Maybe I should try again.



Actually, that's twice you have taken my comments and changed them so that they are extreme and indefensible so you can vent about *something* - God only knows what the root is. I have a guess but I'm keeping it to myself.





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Friday, February 17, 2012 7:36 AM

BYTEMITE


OONJERAH: That is Egypt, and it's also a problem seen in Afghanistan and Iraq. Iran is a slightly different story. The low lands of the nation get very hot, and the deserts in Iran are due to being in the rainshadow of mountains. There are really only two ergs (dune fields) of any size, the landscape is more dominated by semi-arid grasslands, steppes, and forests.



Beige is erg, white is evaporative salt flats, pink is semi-arid grassland, greens are forest.

It's less so much that they've raped the land and can't sell off those resources anymore, but that outside cities subsistence farming dominates and inside cities it's a knowledge based economy.

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Friday, February 17, 2012 7:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oonj, thanx for the material on desertification. I was going to address why oil would be their major export, and you covered it nicely. Yes, a lot CAN be done, but it's damned difficult to reclaim a desert, and that's what makes up most of Afghanistan AND Iran, unfortunately. Once they discovered oil, and we found all those wonderful uses for it, I think it's only natural they'd focus on getting rich from it. Bear in mind that both countries were historically trading countries, used most by camel trains passing through. The inhabited areas back then were small and widely spaced...as they still mostly are in Afghanistan. Certainly there IS agriculture, etc., but I'm not sure if it's historically been enough for export, much less anything else.

As to this whole topic, I don't want a war, certainly, but I don't dismiss the possibility. As far as I can see, Israel is so fidgety and paranoid at this point that THEY may well take us into one by trying to bomb Iran's nuclear facilities. Where it goes from there is anyone's guess.

As to " at an August 2005 meeting of the International Atomic Energy Agency "...that was 2005, seven years ago, and this whole thing has evolved a LOT since then, so I don't think it's 100% valid. I don't know how much the Iranian government has changed in the intervening years, but from what I hear about the hard liners being worse than Ahmadinewhatshisname, and Israel pushing the envelope, and our own righties crying for war (listened to Santorum lately?), I think it's quite a different matter now. And it DOES take only one or two madmen to start a war...

I think it's both foolish to say "it can't happen here" AND to call for war, and I have no control over either when it comes to TPTB. All I can do is hope to hell we don't start one OR get pulled into one by Israel, while at the same time nobody will ever convince me it's impossible.

Byte, respectfully, your verbiage seems to be getting kind of aggressive, IMHO; I, too, have never known Pizmo to be "evil" or anything even close to it. Just sayin'.



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Friday, February 17, 2012 8:12 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
That's not really how it works. I imagine Israel actually probably does get oil from hostile nations, because they buy it off a market, not from the hostile nations.


Nope.

We're bound by Treaty, which I have pointed out in other cases is equal in authority to the US Constitution, to supply their petroleum needs over and above our own, even if we go short.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/peace%20process/guide%20to%20the%20peace%20p
rocess/memorandum%20of%20agreement%20between%20the%20governments%20of


I'd love to meet the bastards who drew THAT up and signed it in a dark alley somewhere.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.



Ah. Well, they're getting oil from those nations through us then, probably. Instead of the open market.

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Friday, February 17, 2012 8:37 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

My hope is that if Israel decides to bomb Iran, or take any other action in their pre-emptive defense, that we stay out of it. My hope is that all the peace-loving people on this board, and everywhere else, rise up in righteous indignation against the idea of another war, and another hundred-thousand souls lost.

I miss the anti-war sentiment that was here in the Bush years. It's so tepid and soft now. I remember when the mere prospect of another war would get some people here to stand up and holler "HELL NO!"

Now it's like, 'Well, I wish it wouldn't happen, but you know, it might. Sigh.'

Sometimes I think the worst thing that ever happened to the Peace movement was getting a Democrat elected to the White House.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, February 17, 2012 12:29 PM

BYTEMITE


There are some of us here who are still angry, and refuse to listen to any justification, as there is every reason to believe them to be false.

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Friday, February 17, 2012 1:08 PM

OONJERAH



Thanks, Niki, for the support.

I am a sweet, little, old lady -- except when I'm not. For about the last 10 years, there are 2 things I do to save
the planet, & one of them is sorta fun. I recycle and I improve the top soil wherever I live. I only drive 50-75
miles a month; but that's for me, 'cause I don't wanna go anywhere. The place I'm living now had no top soil, just
road base all over. So I put soil on top of that; it's very dark, rich, full of worms. I do it all by hand.

North Africa is equatorial. My old sis often told me a that in ancient times, it was tropical like Brazil and parts
of SE Asia. (My sis was not the most reliable reporter; but she did read a lot.) It was so rich, it became a cradle
of civilization. It could not have been a desert then.

It wasn't always a desert. It became a desert from overfarming. There might have been many wise leaders along the way
who told the people, "We have to reverse this. We have to regain the fertile land by replanting trees and protecting
them, by building oases and top soil." It would have been tedious and difficult, but it could have been done.

Apparently, the Israelis have done it in less than 60 years.

The Arabs are rich. They could do it. Instead, we have the Iranian leader telling us, year after year, that they need
& have a right to nuclear power ... never mentioning the need for top soil. How silly!

That is a seriously backward priority.
_________

Quote PizmoBeach: "Do you really think only we can suck?"

LOL. I love it!


"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Friday, February 17, 2012 1:17 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

My hope is that if Israel decides to bomb Iran, or take any other action in their pre-emptive defense, that we stay out of it. My hope is that all the peace-loving people on this board, and everywhere else, rise up in righteous indignation against the idea of another war, and another hundred-thousand souls lost.

I miss the anti-war sentiment that was here in the Bush years. It's so tepid and soft now. I remember when the mere prospect of another war would get some people here to stand up and holler "HELL NO!"

Now it's like, 'Well, I wish it wouldn't happen, but you know, it might. Sigh.'

Sometimes I think the worst thing that ever happened to the Peace movement was getting a Democrat elected to the White House.




I think you're right - plus, I think Obama engenders more frustration than outrage. And lately he's showing signs of doing what he made us think he would do:

- Iraq, troops almost-ish out
- Afghanistan, *plans* to bring troops home
- Libya, no obvious boots on the ground
- Military Spending, plans to cut in half

Those are improvements, right? I'm willing to give him more time since the other option is not an option.
It would be very interesting if he appeared on national tv and asked for our support as we "along with Israel" felt the need to blank Iran... I just can't imagine him going there.

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Friday, February 17, 2012 1:31 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

In terms of Iraq, there's really no improvement over Bush. Obama has stuck to the Bush era plan for withdrawal. He could have earned points for getting out sooner, but lost that opportunity.

Afghanistan and halving the Military Budget are subjects of the future. I'll score them as accomplishments when they are accomplished.

Today, as we bomb Pakistan, we hear saber rattling about Iran. Hardly auspicious signs.

If you want my honest opinion, Obama has earned none of the gentleness he's been given on the subject of war.

I used to think people wanted an immediate end to the wars due to moral principles and a passion for peace.

Now I'm coming to realize it was mostly a partisan issue, used to score points against an enemy political camp.

It makes me very sad.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, February 17, 2012 6:00 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

North Africa is equatorial. My old sis often told me a that in ancient times, it was tropical like Brazil and parts
of SE Asia. (My sis was not the most reliable reporter; but she did read a lot.) It was so rich, it became a cradle
of civilization. It could not have been a desert then.

It wasn't always a desert. It became a desert from overfarming. There might have been many wise leaders along the way
who told the people, "We have to reverse this. We have to regain the fertile land by replanting trees and protecting
them, by building oases and top soil." It would have been tedious and difficult, but it could have been done.



Yes, I know about the Sahara. It was caused by overgrazing. Similarly, Iraq was caused by poor irrigation practices back in the days of Sumeria, resulting in salinization. It was starting to come back, then Saddam Hussein came into power (more bad irrigation). In Afghanistan, that was also overgrazing, and it may be there's no possible way to bring that back.

Iran, however, has better ecological health.

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Friday, February 17, 2012 7:38 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:

Why are you such a defender of radical Islam? Do you really think only we can suck?




Am I? I find it odd that you equate questioning what we're being told by admitted propagandists as "defending radical Islam". I find it even more odd that you think that my pointing out that all the things we accuse "radical Islam" of doing, we do ourselves.

I guess I could ask if you really think that only THEY can suck? Or that somehow, only we CAN'T?

We're seeing the same build-up to war that we saw a decade ago. And most of y'all are too addle-pated to even remember that, it seems. You were lied to then, yet you seem sure of your sources this time - only they're the same basic sources!




"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, February 18, 2012 5:08 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:

Why are you such a defender of radical Islam? Do you really think only we can suck?




Am I? I find it odd that you equate questioning what we're being told by admitted propagandists as "defending radical Islam". I find it even more odd that you think that my pointing out that all the things we accuse "radical Islam" of doing, we do ourselves.

I guess I could ask if you really think that only THEY can suck? Or that somehow, only we CAN'T?

We're seeing the same build-up to war that we saw a decade ago. And most of y'all are too addle-pated to even remember that, it seems. You were lied to then, yet you seem sure of your sources this time - only they're the same basic sources!




Maybe it's from all the time you spend battling AU, but I just don't recall you making the connection that governments outside of ours can be populated by dangerous egomaniacs with bad intentions.

"I guess I could ask if you really think that only THEY can suck? Or that somehow, only we CAN'T?"
If you've read my posts - even in this thread - you should know the answer. Why do you think there's only 1 side? Both sides can suck!

If we need to be wary of translations then how do we know "The dustbin of history" is harmless to Muslims? Maybe that's the worst thing you can say about a Government, it's beyond destroy for now, beyond destroy the current regime, it's to be removed from ever having been - don't just destroy but salt the earth of history. The last source I cited was a Lebanese paper, not the CIA quarterly, I thought that would be closer - also not acceptable?

Here's another one, wikipedia:

"Khamenei remains a steadfast opponent of the State of Israel and Zionism. In 2001 Khamenei famously remarked that "this cancerous tumor of a state [Israel] should be removed from the region"

Hmmm, does he just want to put it on a moving truck and send it to get cancer treatments? Is it really so hard to see the hatred or are you so stuck on a single position and afraid to move off it?

"We're seeing the same build-up to war that we saw a decade ago. And most of y'all are too addle-pated to even remember that, it seems. You were lied to then, yet you seem sure of your sources this time - only they're the same basic sources! "

You sound like Whozit when he says "all you liberals who love Obama" and we all go, "who is he talking about?? There aren't many liberalz here and none of them love Obama." Who is "most of y'all?" And I don't see anyone saying, "War it is then!"

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Saturday, February 18, 2012 5:23 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

And I don't see anyone saying, "War it is then!"


Hello,

If that's not the conclusion, then it doesn't matter how awful Iran is, what sorts of Nuclear programs they're developing, or how much they despise Israel.

If we're not going to bomb them or invade them or otherwise violate their sovereignty, then these are just unattached observations floating around without purpose.

However, these observations often seem (to me, anyway) to be a list justifying action against Iran.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Saturday, February 18, 2012 5:55 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

And I don't see anyone saying, "War it is then!"


Hello,

If that's not the conclusion, then it doesn't matter how awful Iran is, what sorts of Nuclear programs they're developing, or how much they despise Israel.

If we're not going to bomb them or invade them or otherwise violate their sovereignty, then these are just unattached observations floating around without purpose.

However, these observations often seem (to me, anyway) to be a list justifying action against Iran.

--Anthony





Exactly. Suppose Iran *IS* pursuing nuclear weapons. Suppose they actually build them.

What reaction are you proposing? If not war, if not military strikes, then what? What *I* propose is that a nuclear Iran is no more or less dangerous than a nuclear Israel, Pakistan, India, China, or America. You've yet to provide any evidence that proves otherwise, yet seem adamant that we must do SOMETHING. What, exactly, do you propose we do? Bomb them? Sanction them? Embargo them? Refuse to talk to them?

What I see here and elsewhere is lots of people basically using their own prejudices and stereotypes to justify attacks on Iran. What you're saying, in essence boils down to "Hey, they say they aren't making nukes, but we all know how they lie." It's offensive, because what it proves to me is that you don't *know* anything about Iran, its people, its motives, or anything else, and what you think you know is wrong.

When I'm talking to someone and they preface their "thoughts" with "Hey, I don't mean to sound racist, but..." or "Hey, all I know is...", then it becomes immediately and abundantly clear to me that they are indeed about to say something horribly racist, or they in fact don't know much of anything at all.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, February 18, 2012 6:11 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yes, desertification, etc., but wasn't that done long before, like VERY long before, so that having exportable sources of income had been rendered impossible? Just guessing here...

Anthony, I try to see things in perspective. If virtually ANY of the Republicans (except Paul) were in power, we'd still be in Iraq--remember how they've been screaming about that? We'd have built up even more in Afghanistan, would have gone to war in Libya, have attacked Iran, might even be in Syria now, and wouldn't have gotten bin Laden. All you have to do is listen to their rhetoric, since before Obama was elected, and consistently ever since (well, fairly consistently, there's been some flip-flopping, but you get the idea). So I give Obama points for the things he's done that aren't as bad as they could have been. Time will tell about the rest.



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Saturday, February 18, 2012 6:45 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

And I don't see anyone saying, "War it is then!"


Hello,

If that's not the conclusion, then it doesn't matter how awful Iran is, what sorts of Nuclear programs they're developing, or how much they despise Israel.

If we're not going to bomb them or invade them or otherwise violate their sovereignty, then these are just unattached observations floating around without purpose.

However, these observations often seem (to me, anyway) to be a list justifying action against Iran.





I keep making the same mistake of not being explicit enough, 'cuz when you don't you leave all sorts of room for people to put you in the boxes they're most comfortable with - my bad.

I should have said: "And I don't see anyone in this thread saying, "War it is then!"

I did say I was cautiously optimistic to see (the story has vaporized though) that Iran wanted to get back to talks.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Saturday, February 18, 2012 6:54 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

And I don't see anyone saying, "War it is then!"


Hello,

If that's not the conclusion, then it doesn't matter how awful Iran is, what sorts of Nuclear programs they're developing, or how much they despise Israel.

If we're not going to bomb them or invade them or otherwise violate their sovereignty, then these are just unattached observations floating around without purpose.

However, these observations often seem (to me, anyway) to be a list justifying action against Iran.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner




Exactly what I think.

If people aren't saying "war it is" but they're using these talking points, then they haven't looked at the agendas pushing them and haven't carried that to the logical conclusion.

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Saturday, February 18, 2012 6:58 AM

BYTEMITE


Persia has always been a VERY rich empire. I wouldn't say they've had no exports, just that oil is the only export the west is interested in nowadays.

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Saturday, February 18, 2012 7:36 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

And I don't see anyone saying, "War it is then!"


Hello,

If that's not the conclusion, then it doesn't matter how awful Iran is, what sorts of Nuclear programs they're developing, or how much they despise Israel.

If we're not going to bomb them or invade them or otherwise violate their sovereignty, then these are just unattached observations floating around without purpose.

However, these observations often seem (to me, anyway) to be a list justifying action against Iran.

--Anthony





Exactly. Suppose Iran *IS* pursuing nuclear weapons. Suppose they actually build them.

What reaction are you proposing? If not war, if not military strikes, then what? What *I* propose is that a nuclear Iran is no more or less dangerous than a nuclear Israel, Pakistan, India, China, or America. You've yet to provide any evidence that proves otherwise, yet seem adamant that we must do SOMETHING. What, exactly, do you propose we do? Bomb them? Sanction them? Embargo them? Refuse to talk to them?

What I see here and elsewhere is lots of people basically using their own prejudices and stereotypes to justify attacks on Iran. What you're saying, in essence boils down to "Hey, they say they aren't making nukes, but we all know how they lie." It's offensive, because what it proves to me is that you don't *know* anything about Iran, its people, its motives, or anything else, and what you think you know is wrong.

When I'm talking to someone and they preface their "thoughts" with "Hey, I don't mean to sound racist, but..." or "Hey, all I know is...", then it becomes immediately and abundantly clear to me that they are indeed about to say something horribly racist, or they in fact don't know much of anything at all.




"What I see here and elsewhere is lots of people basically using their own prejudices and stereotypes to justify attacks on Iran. "

Who lots here?

I haven't proposed anything. I posted in this thread: "I try and guess what the outcome might be..." I talked about what Israel might do based on Iran's actions.

I also posted, "glad to see them talking again."

I also posted, "I think less nukes globally is the best solution."

I should have posted, "Kwicko probably won't read any of this, but here goes..."

Kwicko: What *I* propose is that a nuclear Iran is no more or less dangerous than a nuclear Israel, Pakistan, India, China, or America."
I agree, though I'd probably lean toward the more dangerous side of your statement, my opinion based on their comments about Israel. Everyone on that list has the potential to mess up a lot of little people's lives without much effort, one more country with nukes = bad. It's pretty simple.

Kwicko: "What you're saying, in essence boils down to "Hey, they say they aren't making nukes, but we all know how they lie."
News Flash: All Governments lie - cripes, where you been? You seriously don't get that...

Kwicko: "It's offensive, because what it proves to me is that you don't *know* anything about Iran, its people, its motives, or anything else, and what you think you know is wrong."
I think you still have some brain swell. Where did I profess I *knew* anything about Iran or their intentions? I did work with an Iranian guy for a couple years once - we worked in a camera shop together, Reza, great guy, loved "American Blondes" and sugar - huge sugar freak, carried packets around with him and ate them throughout the day. LIved in a trailer park and drove a beat up mitsubishi Lancer. That's really about it. Please tell me how much you *know.*

Kwicko: "When I'm talking to someone and they preface their "thoughts" with "Hey, I don't mean to sound racist, but..." or "Hey, all I know is...", then it becomes immediately and abundantly clear to me that they are indeed about to say something horribly racist, or they in fact don't know much of anything at all.

Again, can't wait to hear how you came to have such great knowledge of Iran and their intentions.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Saturday, February 18, 2012 7:58 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:


I don't trust your judgement on this: "no one is going to USE a nuke in this day and age."
That means one of us is wrong. If I'm wrong then no bombs go off, if you're wrong things go boom. If you were put in charge of such things which scenario is the wisest one to plan for?

If Iran would never use one then they won't mind us making sure they can't, right?



Hello Pizmo,

I suspect comments like this one make people think you support action against Iran.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Saturday, February 18, 2012 8:00 AM

BYTEMITE


Pizmo: Um. I may have been a little hormonal earlier.

I just wanted to say I have a friend who's family is from Iraq, and also that I do appreciate you've made a friend of an Iranian. It's a nice story.

And I'm starting to get where you're coming from, but I still think you need to be careful that your concerns aren't taken and hijacked by people who do want war.

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Saturday, February 18, 2012 8:59 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:


I don't trust your judgement on this: "no one is going to USE a nuke in this day and age."
That means one of us is wrong. If I'm wrong then no bombs go off, if you're wrong things go boom. If you were put in charge of such things which scenario is the wisest one to plan for?

If Iran would never use one then they won't mind us making sure they can't, right?



Hello Pizmo,

I suspect comments like this one make people think you support action against Iran.




People keep turning over what I've said like they're sure there's bugs and nasties underneath... I love it.

It's almost poetic: I think the Middle East is like a big ole leaking drum of gasoline and nukes are matches and the fewer matches the better. A region that has what EVER? seen peace? Seems like reducing the bombs is a pretty safe smart thing. "Making sure they can't" yeah, I think inspectors are a good idea. If we have success there we can expand on that to include the rest of the nukes. Perhaps some people think the world would be safer if everyone had nukes?


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Saturday, February 18, 2012 9:10 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Pizmo: Um. I may have been a little hormonal earlier.

I just wanted to say I have a friend who's family is from Iraq, and also that I do appreciate you've made a friend of an Iranian. It's a nice story.

And I'm starting to get where you're coming from, but I still think you need to be careful that your concerns aren't taken and hijacked by people who do want war.



No problem Byte - I have 2 older brothers and all we did was fight and argue until all hours, kinda feels like home.
That is the most frustrating thing about posting here - I know who I am and yet it doesn't always seem to come across. I like all kinds of peoples, I'm from a family of compulsive travelers, the more someone is different than me the more interested I tend to be in them or where they are from. I'd love to go to Iran, I'd love to walk around the globe with only a linen sport coat and an amex card...

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Saturday, February 18, 2012 9:27 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

That is the most frustrating thing about posting here - I know who I am and yet it doesn't always seem to come across.
Boy, can I relate to THAT one!

I'm glad it was just a glitch, Byte, it didn't SOUND like you to me. Put me in the same category as Pizmo, in that I do believe there's a threat, I DO believe it only takes a few crazies to do something crazy (given history, that seems obvious to me), but I don't want to go to war over a possibility. I just don't know what to do about it...and actually, more about Israel's (understandable) paranoia than Iran itself. I fear Israel will take steps which will involve us, and there are enough people in America who feel like them, that it makes me nervous. Probably more nervous than the concept of Iran getting nukes and coming after US or something. I just don't totally dismiss the possibility of Iran getting aggressive with nukes.



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