REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Is this a major oops by NBC ?

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 18:18
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 5650
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Saturday, August 4, 2012 4:21 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



You decide




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Saturday, August 4, 2012 4:40 AM

WHOZIT


Maybe a little opps, ads with monkeys are always funny. Libs have distroyed NBC News, dimwits are killing their entertainment division.

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Saturday, August 4, 2012 4:59 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



I didn't see it live.

So, the guy who got fired over the Jeremy Lin ' chink in the armor ' headline.. that was deliberate.

But this was purely accidental, right ?




" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, August 4, 2012 5:05 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Eyes on me, rappy. Got your attention? Good. Keep paying attention, don't want you to miss this point: The talking head that you see on TV is not responsible for choosing the commercials or when they are aired. Did you get that?

ALtho, I have to say... does anyone remember the miniseries on Nazi deathcamps? It was a big thing. But they aired commercials for oven cleaners and air fresheners right in the middle. GAAAK! Horrible choice, but in restrospect wildly funny.

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Saturday, August 4, 2012 5:15 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Eyes on me, rappy. Got your attention? Good. Keep paying attention, don't want you to miss this point: The talking head that you see on TV is not responsible for choosing the commercials or when they are aired. Did you get that?



* Blinks and nods *

Yes, but then , when did I ever suggest that Bob Costas WAS responsible for this ? The subject line reads " NBC ", does it not ?

Quote:


ALtho, I have to say... does anyone remember the miniseries on Nazi deathcamps? It was a big thing. But they aired commercials for oven cleaners and air fresheners right in the middle. GAAAK! Horrible choice, but in restrospect wildly funny.



THE series on NAZI death camps? Gee, I must have missed THAT one.




" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, August 4, 2012 7:13 AM

WHOZIT


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Eyes on me, rappy. Got your attention? Good. Keep paying attention, don't want you to miss this point: The talking head that you see on TV is not responsible for choosing the commercials or when they are aired. Did you get that?

ALtho, I have to say... does anyone remember the miniseries on Nazi deathcamps? It was a big thing. But they aired commercials for oven cleaners and air fresheners right in the middle. GAAAK! Horrible choice, but in restrospect wildly funny.



I thought I'd ruin Sigy's day by agreeing, NBC has become unwatchable, (and canceled Summer and Sean's shows) this was just bad timing. Sorry Sig, I'm sure this causes you great pain.

I also have to repeat that ads with monkeys are always funny!

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Saturday, August 4, 2012 8:17 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


It is an oops. Costas was making a point about Douglas being the first black women to win the all a round gold and they lead into an ill timed commercial. Not a huge oops but someone should have caught it. Even one commercial between would have been more than enough.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, August 4, 2012 8:20 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



And how is this any worse than what the Greek female track star did, when she tweeted an unfunny, lame, but relatively harmless 'joke' about Africans and the West Nile virus ?

She got kicked out of the Olympics. I suspect nothing will happen to anyone in this situation, though.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, August 4, 2012 9:33 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

And how is this any worse than what the Greek female track star did, when she tweeted an unfunny, lame, but relatively harmless 'joke' about Africans and the West Nile virus ?

She got kicked out of the Olympics. I suspect nothing will happen to anyone in this situation, though.



It is not worse, but it was not purposeful. The Greek track star knowingly put out a racist joke and was taken off her Olympic team by her country for doing so.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, August 4, 2012 9:41 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Stupid, thoughtless, unfunny, ignorant... that 'joke' was many things, but 'racist' wasn't one of them.

I think that sending her home was an over reaction.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, August 4, 2012 10:04 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Well now you've got one more thing to hate Greece for.

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Saturday, August 4, 2012 10:07 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Well now you've got one more thing to hate Greece for.






" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, August 4, 2012 10:51 AM

WHOZIT


.

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Saturday, August 4, 2012 11:09 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Stupid, thoughtless, unfunny, ignorant... that 'joke' was many things, but 'racist' wasn't one of them.

I think that sending her home was an over reaction.



It was racist. Greece did not want someone who would even make such a joke representing their country, so not an over reaction.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, August 4, 2012 11:16 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Stupid, thoughtless, unfunny, ignorant... that 'joke' was many things, but 'racist' wasn't one of them.

I think that sending her home was an over reaction.



It was racist. Greece did not want someone who would even make such a joke representing their country, so not an over reaction.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.



Explain how it expressed any racial superiority , if you can.



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, August 5, 2012 5:11 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Explain how it expressed any racial superiority , if you can.



That is not what racism means, try again.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Sunday, August 5, 2012 8:31 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

And how is this any worse than what the Greek female track star did

Huh? Was anyone suggesting it was worse? Did you get things the wrong way round here?

Are you seriously looking for heads to roll for this NBC incident goldraptor? Or just looking for an excuse to bring up the story of the Greek athlete again? For me the two incidents are not all that similar. And the Greeks can do what they want with their own athletes.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, August 6, 2012 4:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well, I think both are a shame, but no big deal. The NBC is purely accidental, as commercials are scheduled way before time and aren't connected to the show. The second is unfortunate and maybe just the ignorance of youth, and I think sending her home was an overreaction. Just think how hard she worked to get there! A severe reprimand would have done the trick. That kind of overreaction makes me sad; surely there's a middle ground!


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Monday, August 6, 2012 4:33 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


What I wonder is... why does rappy think that a pic of a female athlete sticking her twat in the air is welcome by half of the posters here? I believe he only thinks of women as sex objects, just like he thinks of EVERYONE as simple objects of financial self-gratification. I guess the female response to his approach IRL is pretty dismal, which is why he seems to be stuck with beating off on fantasy girlfriends.

May not be a "major" oops by NBC, but certainly is a fail by rappy (again!)

/crudeness

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Monday, August 6, 2012 5:16 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

That kind of overreaction makes me sad; surely there's a middle ground!

It was an overreaction, and one of the annoying things about it (and other such PC incidents) is that it gives a kind of moral high ground/victim status to reactionaries far and wide.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, August 6, 2012 1:10 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

And how is this any worse than what the Greek female track star did

Huh? Was anyone suggesting it was worse? Did you get things the wrong way round here?

Are you seriously looking for heads to roll for this NBC incident goldraptor? Or just looking for an excuse to bring up the story of the Greek athlete again? For me the two incidents are not all that similar. And the Greeks can do what they want with their own athletes.

It's not personal. It's just war.




Not hard to see why Rappy's sympathies are with the Greek athlete. She is, after all, a supporter of the hard-right party Golden Dawn.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"The groin cup and throat protector have about as much ballistic protection as the kneepads I wear when I'm doing a job that requires me to be on my knees." - Troll

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Tuesday, August 7, 2012 1:33 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Explain how it expressed any racial superiority , if you can.



That is not what racism means, try again.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.



Actually, that's exactly what racism means. The inherent genetic superiority of one race over another.

Quote:


Not hard to see why Rappy's sympathies are with the Greek athlete. She is, after all, a supporter of the hard-right party Golden Dawn.



My only point was I thought it was excessive to ban her from the games over a stupid , lame joke. I had no idea, nor does it matter one bit, imo, what her political affiliations are. This is the first I've even heard of 'Golden Dawn', and I don't see how it plays any role in any of this. I was merely commenting on the details of her actions.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 7, 2012 1:37 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Your right Rappy, that is one definition. Another is simple hatred of others based on their race. That is what we had in this case.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, August 7, 2012 1:45 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Your right Rappy, that is one definition. Another is simple hatred of others based on their race. That is what we had in this case.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.



Callous and insensitive, I get. But I still don't see this as being 'race' based. Her joke was, as I see it, geographical in nature, and could have applied to any group of people for similar sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with skin color.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 7, 2012 3:29 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Callous and insensitive, I get. But I still don't see this as being 'race' based. Her joke was, as I see it, geographical in nature, and could have applied to any group of people for similar sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with skin color.



It was about an area that is dominated by a particular race. Combined with her support of a political party which is racist (in both definitions of the word) and it is a hard sell that her comments were simple jokes.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, August 7, 2012 3:38 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Callous and insensitive, I get. But I still don't see this as being 'race' based. Her joke was, as I see it, geographical in nature, and could have applied to any group of people for similar sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with skin color.



It was about an area that is dominated by a particular race. Combined with her support of a political party which is racist (in both definitions of the word) and it is a hard sell that her comments were simple jokes.



What if she'd said something about those who live in Iceland, affected by the recent volcano eruption ? Or made some silly Tsunami / earthquake joke ?

I think folks are reading more into stupid comments, and over reacting a bit.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 8, 2012 12:37 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Callous and insensitive, I get. But I still don't see this as being 'race' based. Her joke was, as I see it, geographical in nature, and could have applied to any group of people for similar sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with skin color.



It was about an area that is dominated by a particular race. Combined with her support of a political party which is racist (in both definitions of the word) and it is a hard sell that her comments were simple jokes.



What if she'd said something about those who live in Iceland, affected by the recent volcano eruption ? Or made some silly Tsunami / earthquake joke ?



What if she'd gone to Chick-fil-A and asked an employee how she could live with herself? Would you be laughing about her being fired?

Quote:


I think folks are reading more into stupid comments, and over reacting a bit.




Kinda like folks reading more into a clumsy commercial seque by a TV network, and overreacting to that?





"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

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Wednesday, August 8, 2012 1:00 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



It wasn't so much that a monkey was shown on screen, but a monkey, in a gymnast's outfit, doing a gymnastics routine, that drew the comparison. I think it was poor timing, at least.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 8, 2012 2:16 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Nobody's arguing that.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, August 8, 2012 2:34 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
What if she'd said something about those who live in Iceland, affected by the recent volcano eruption ? Or made some silly Tsunami / earthquake joke ?



Depending on the joke it could have been much the same.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, August 8, 2012 4:26 AM

JONGSSTRAW


When I die I'd like to be reincarnated as a womens' gymnastics coach, preferably a Russian gymnastics coach.

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Wednesday, August 8, 2012 5:31 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Eww. They're like little girls...

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, August 8, 2012 12:12 PM

CUDA77

Like woman, I am a mystery.


I think the far bigger major oops by NBC is their new shows for the fall that I keep seeing advertised. Go On? Stars Earning Stripes? Animal Practice? The New Normal? Guys With Kids? And the one that looks like Wulf's nightly wet dream put onto television, Revolution. I'm having difficulty deciding which one looks the worst. Jon Stewart really was right when he said last week that NBC truly has no idea how to cater to an American television audience. If any of these shows get a second season, I'll be shocked beyond belief.

So yeah, if they should apologize for anything, it should be for the terrible TV they're giving us this fall. I can't believe Community is getting Friday Night Death Slotted for this crap.

Socialist and unashamed.


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Wednesday, August 8, 2012 12:29 PM

STORYMARK


Its always....amusing when someone claims something is terrrible - without having seen it. Some fine magical powers, there.

So far, Go On has gotten evry good reviews. And the Revolution got a great reception at Comic-Con. It's from 2 writers and a director I like, so Im not going to write it off cuz it looks like someone I don't like might enjoy it. The New Normal isn't interesting to me, as I dislike sit-coms as a rule, but every other show from that creator has been a hit.

Im sure some will probably be bad, but I just find it so odd to have decided before actually knowing anything about how they turn out...


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, August 8, 2012 1:20 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
What if she'd said something about those who live in Iceland, affected by the recent volcano eruption ? Or made some silly Tsunami / earthquake joke ?



Depending on the joke it could have been much the same. /b]



Exactly my point! It'd be equally lacking in tact, humor and good taste, but I'd not view it as 'racist'.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, August 8, 2012 3:05 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Revolution just looks so "Hunger Games" in so many ways, plus I get the strong suspicion it will be one of those shows with no resolution, no closure, no real goal or endpoint.

But I am a bit intrigued by it anyway.

And "Go On"? Heck, why not. I've pretty much liked Matthew Perry in everything I've seen him in, and when I see him, I *don't* think "Chanandler Bong". I liked his stint on The West Wing, really liked him in Studio 60, and even enjoyed him in Mr. Sunshine (he and Allison Janney were the best parts of a pretty flawed show).



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

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Wednesday, August 8, 2012 4:00 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Revolution just looks so "Hunger Games" in so many ways, plus I get the strong suspicion it will be one of those shows with no resolution, no closure, no real goal or endpoint.



Erik Kripke is running the show, and his prior show, Supernatural, was constructed around a pretty tight 5 year arc, which was roughly planned from the start. Id wager they have at least an idea of where they're going.


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, August 8, 2012 11:56 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Revolution just looks so "Hunger Games" in so many ways, plus I get the strong suspicion it will be one of those shows with no resolution, no closure, no real goal or endpoint.



Erik Kripke is running the show, and his prior show, Supernatural, was constructed around a pretty tight 5 year arc, which was roughly planned from the start. Id wager they have at least an idea of where they're going.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"




And let's face it - Supernatural should have STAYED on that five-year arc, because it's become unwatchable in the last couple years!



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

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Thursday, August 9, 2012 6:19 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURAPTOR:
Exactly my point! It'd be equally lacking in tact, humor and good taste, but it'd NOT be viewed as 'racist'.



No I ment it depends on what the joke was, so telling a joke about another area or country could be just as racist as the one she did tell.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 9, 2012 8:02 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Revolution just looks so "Hunger Games" in so many ways, plus I get the strong suspicion it will be one of those shows with no resolution, no closure, no real goal or endpoint.



Erik Kripke is running the show, and his prior show, Supernatural, was constructed around a pretty tight 5 year arc, which was roughly planned from the start. Id wager they have at least an idea of where they're going.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"




And let's face it - Supernatural should have STAYED on that five-year arc, because it's become unwatchable in the last couple years!



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero



Its not as good as it was, but I wouldn't call it unwatchable. Still better than any other genre show on. Ill take lesser Supernatural over Once Upon a Time or Grimm in a heartbeat.


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, August 9, 2012 8:04 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURAPTOR:
Exactly my point! It'd be equally lacking in tact, humor and good taste, but it'd NOT be viewed as 'racist'.



No I ment it depends on what the joke was, so telling a joke about another area or country could be just as racist as the one she did tell.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.



Ya can't expect Rappy to realize the reason that jokes that don't contain a racial element aren't racist, but those whioch do contain a racial element CAN be. This is grown up level reasoning, and that's too taxing for the lad.


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, August 9, 2012 9:34 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by STORYMARK:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Revolution just looks so "Hunger Games" in so many ways, plus I get the strong suspicion it will be one of those shows with no resolution, no closure, no real goal or endpoint.



Erik Kripke is running the show, and his prior show, Supernatural, was constructed around a pretty tight 5 year arc, which was roughly planned from the start. Id wager they have at least an idea of where they're going.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"




And let's face it - Supernatural should have STAYED on that five-year arc, because it's become unwatchable in the last couple years!



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero



Its not as good as it was, but I wouldn't call it unwatchable. Still better than any other genre show on. Ill take lesser Supernatural over Once Upon a Time or Grimm in a heartbeat.


"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"





Oh, I'll readily agree to that. I *just* stopped watching Supernatural about 5 eps into this season (the one with Spike and Cordelia in it was fun); I gave up on those other two before they got through their first seasons; I've given Supernatural more than six.

And as far as TV shows that have a "Buffy" kind of vibe to them, this was the closest we're likely to get. But I just couldn't take it anymore; it felt like they were just lost, and had no real idea how to wrap it up (and it looks like they're going to keep coming back, again and again and again, so they may never have to worry about how to finish...)



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

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Thursday, August 9, 2012 10:47 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:

No I ment it depends on what the joke was, so telling a joke about another area or country could be just as racist as the one she did tell.





But her joke wasn't 'racist', in the strict definition of the word.

Quote:


Ya can't expect Rappy to realize the reason that jokes that don't contain a racial element aren't racist, but those whioch do contain a racial element CAN be. This is grown up level reasoning, and that's too taxing for the lad.



And where's the 'racist element' of this joke ?

" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, August 9, 2012 4:29 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
But her joke wasn't 'racist', in the strict definition of the word.




It wasn't in one definition of the word, it was in another.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 9, 2012 5:03 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



One more time, I don't see how the " joke " reflected a hatred for anyone , based purely on race.

Bigoted ? Sure. But racial ?


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 14, 2012 6:18 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I'm with Niki, I think it was a coincidence, there was no intended message there, just an oops. The thing is that I'd have never have even noticed and made the connection and I think a good chunk of people also wouldn't have noticed, or would have realized it was a fluke accident.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise. "A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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