REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

GOP Senate candidate: ‘Legitimate rape’ rarely causes pregnancy.

POSTED BY: KWICKO
UPDATED: Thursday, August 23, 2012 08:53
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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 1:43 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Thing is, his statements are a part of the whole issue of abortion. He thinks that there should be no exceptions for rape, because he honestly doesn't believe a woman can get pregnant by being raped.

If she's raped, she won't get pregnant, and so won't need an abortion. If she's pregnant, then by his logic, it couldn't have been rape, so she shouldn't be eligible for abortion.

It's one more way the GOP is looking to remove any choice from women. It's not "pro life"; it's ANTI-CHOICE.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 2:48 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

It's one more way the GOP is looking to remove any choice from women. It's not "pro life"; it's ANTI-CHOICE.



Does the unborn get a CHOICE in any of this ?

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 2:56 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
There are some who think that abortion is punishing the innocent unborn, when the real punishment should be left for the rapist.


Funny how the WOMAN involved is entirely left out of this statement.

No, actually. It's not funny at all.

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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 3:03 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
There are some who think that abortion is punishing the innocent unborn, when the real punishment should be left for the rapist.


Funny how the WOMAN involved is entirely left out of this statement.

No, actually. It's not funny at all.



You want to punish the woman ? I hear that's what they do in Muslim countries. I'm guessing that ISN'T what you meant, though is it ?

But I'll reiterate, since you may have missed it. I say it IS up to the woman, in such cases, if she wants to carry the unborn to term or not. Clear enough for ya ?

I was merely pointing out that the view that some in the GOP ( not all ) that aborting an innocent life is punishing it as well, and that view point, whether you agree w/ it or not , should not be automatically joined at the hip w/ the goofy ass thing Rep. Akin said about 'legitimate' rape and 'shutting down' unwanted pregnancies which were the result of rape.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 3:43 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Between Rush's stupid comments a few months ago and this thing now, you have to wonder if there's anyone left in the country who hasn't been offended by something a Republican has said during this campaign. At some point these things do have a cumulative effect.

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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 3:53 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Between Rush's stupid comments a few months ago and this thing now, you have to wonder if there's anyone left in the country who hasn't been offended by something a Republican has said during this campaign. At some point these things do have a cumulative effect.



Yeah, but it's odd that none of what the Dems ever say gets 1/10th the media coverage.

Like Biden, naturally, or Maxine Waters, claiming that Sharia Law is GOOD for women... naw, just ignore that , why don't we ?

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 3:59 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
There are some who think that abortion is punishing the innocent unborn, when the real punishment should be left for the rapist.


Funny how the WOMAN involved is entirely left out of this statement.

No, actually. It's not funny at all.



You want to punish the woman ? I hear that's what they do in Muslim countries. I'm guessing that ISN'T what you meant, though is it ?





Very astute.

My point is to reply to the statement I quoted, which I'm seeing in a lot of chats these days. I am not hearing many who say this add anything about the punishment put on the woman by forcing her to carry to term, no matter her wishes or circumstances. While I very much (very much!) appreciate that you are aware that there is a third party involved, the Republican party is not. It's in their platform: no exceptions. At all. Because, for the leaders of the Republican party, the rights of the "unborn" - a little bundle of non-sentient cells - comes before the rights and well-being of the woman. They do not see the woman at all, and have put some effort into removing her from the conversation.

Quote:

But I'll reiterate, since you may have missed it. I say it IS up to the woman, in such cases, if she wants to carry the unborn to term or not. Clear enough for ya ?
It was not at all clear before. Now it is, thank you.

Quote:

I was merely pointing out that the view that some in the GOP ( not all ) that aborting an innocent life is punishing it as well, and that view point, whether you agree w/ it or not , should not be automatically joined at the hip w/ the goofy ass thing Rep. Akin said about 'legitimate' rape and 'shutting down' unwanted pregnancies which were the result of rape.
Duly noted. The question remains - where are the rights of the woman and why does she never enter the Repub's discussion? Other than to be called a slut or an "accuser", that is.

And now it's my turn to be clear: I am not at all comfortable with the idea of a 8.5 month pregnant woman saying she changed her mind and wants to get rid of it. To me, the issue is where, between 0 and 9 months is the line? I don't know. I don't think there is a single line. But I certainly do not see the answer to be *NEVER*, which is what your party - including Ryan and Akin - wants. It's in the damned platform, for Heaven's sake!

BTW: Rappy, thank you for being so shockingly reasonable, with disagreement stated and discussed without the usual madness. Please do not return to old ways, now that you've drawn me into conversing with you, and start posting off the wall shit just to get a rise. (Yes, I think you do that.) It would be a shame, because this thread so far has been one of the most level-headed I've seen here in years. I would hate to see it devolve.

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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 4:09 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Between Rush's stupid comments a few months ago and this thing now, you have to wonder if there's anyone left in the country who hasn't been offended by something a Republican has said during this campaign. At some point these things do have a cumulative effect.



Yeah, but it's odd that none of what the Dems ever say gets 1/10th the media coverage.

Like Biden, naturally, or Maxine Waters, claiming that Sharia Law is GOOD for women... naw, just ignore that , why don't we ?



Republicans have to be alert and smart just to tread water in the liberal media pirannah tank, but they haven't even mastered the basic lessons yet. And they never seem to learn from history. Rules of combat....
- know the difference between a friend and an enemy
- loose lips sink ships

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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 4:14 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

It's one more way the GOP is looking to remove any choice from women. It's not "pro life"; it's ANTI-CHOICE.



Does the unborn get a CHOICE in any of this ?




Is the unborn a citizen?





"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 4:16 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
There are some who think that abortion is punishing the innocent unborn, when the real punishment should be left for the rapist.


Funny how the WOMAN involved is entirely left out of this statement.

No, actually. It's not funny at all.



You want to punish the woman ? I hear that's what they do in Muslim countries. I'm guessing that ISN'T what you meant, though is it ?

But I'll reiterate, since you may have missed it. I say it IS up to the woman, in such cases, if she wants to carry the unborn to term or not. Clear enough for ya ?




So are you saying the unborn doesn't have a CHOICE in the matter?

Quote:


I was merely pointing out that the view that some in the GOP ( not all ) that aborting an innocent life is punishing it as well, and that view point, whether you agree w/ it or not , should not be automatically joined at the hip w/ the goofy ass thing Rep. Akin said about 'legitimate' rape and 'shutting down' unwanted pregnancies which were the result of rape.



Here's another question for ya. If you put a man in prison who has dependent children, are you not punishing his children for his crimes?




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 4:38 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:

BTW: Rappy, thank you for being so shockingly reasonable, with disagreement stated and discussed without the usual madness.


Hey, it's who I am.

But thanks for noticing. I think my personal view on abortion, not being lock step in line w/ the fundie bloc of the GOP, may help clarify MY position, on this and maybe other issues. At least, I hope so.

Quote:

Please do not return to old ways, now that you've drawn me into conversing with you, and start posting off the wall shit just to get a rise. (Yes, I think you do that.) It would be a shame, because this thread so far has been one of the most level-headed I've seen here in years. I would hate to see it devolve.


The 'old' ways? Heh... not real sure what you mean by that. I posted my views on a topic, and didn't get savaged for it. I call that a win. But they are my views, and maybe on the days I don't sync w/ the rest ( or most ) on here, my Browncoaty jacket doesn't get seen as having a certain purple hue to it.
( Because, let's face it, we all don't care much for Purple-bellies, right ? And that's how we see 'bad guys', as being one of THEM. Well, I ain't them. )


And also, to those who'd try and expand this topic into matters extending to OTHER, unrelated areas... : disappointed:

That's just wrong.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 5:00 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


But they ARE related areas.

Akin's views on "legitimate rape" are informed, and in large part FORMED, by his views on abortion.

And he was explaining those views and why he wants to never give ANY woman ANY choice, when he revealed what he truly thinks, and that's when the whole thing went off the rails.

You can claim it's unrelated, but the fact is, it's VERY related. And it's a view on abortion that is shared by Mitt Romney, Paul Ryan, and the GOP party platform. No abortion, ever, for anybody, under any circumstances. No hormonal birth control and no fertility clinics (which seems quite cruel of Romney to endorse, since several of his grandkids were conceived that way!)



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, August 22, 2012 5:36 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

There are some who think that abortion is punishing the innocent unborn, when the real punishment should be left for the rapist.
Yup, I've heard that one. The problem is, they DO want to punish the woman as well:
Quote:

During that campaign, Ryan also expressed his willingness to let states criminally prosecute women who have abortions. He “would let states decide what criminal penalties would be attached to abortions. Ryan said he has never specifically advocated jailing women who have abortions or doctors who perform them, but added, ‘If it’s illegal, it’s illegal.’”

Of course he stopped short of saying how they SHOULD be punished, but the question remains: if a woman has an abortion which is illegal, how DO you punish her for breaking the law?? So yes, while saying what you did, they in fact do want to punish the woman. Not to mention forcing her to have the result of the rape, which for most women, I should think, would be punishment enough.
Quote:

You want to punish the woman ? I hear that's what they do in Muslim countries.

And what they'd be doing in THIS country, if Akin/Ryan had their way. Show us anywhere Ryan has said how exactly they would punish a woman for breaking the law; if you can't, his statement that "If it's illegal, it's illegal" stands; he wants the woman punished for breaking the law, period.

Then there's the little issue of punishing the rapist. You have to CATCH him to "punish" him, and how many rapists are caught, while the woman is right there for them to force bearing a child--which we already KNOW is a punishment: 9 months of real, physical punishment ending in the responsibility for a child for the rest of their lives--or legal punishment if they are able to have an abortion. Child-bearing is a painful, but desirable, experience for those who choose it, but how can any woman who is FORCED to go through it see it as anything but a painful punishment? What about a woman whose fetus is KNOWN to have horrible physical problems? We already have a law in one state where the doctor is PROHIBITED from telling the woman her child has deformities, genetic problems, etc. While Ryan and his friends want to force the woman to bear that child, they also intend to cut resources she may have if that child is a special-needs child.

As to "punishing" the child, if a personhood bill were to pass, that would include "punishing" a zygote--bear in mind they also want contraception made illegal. From the Sanctity of Human Life Act of 2009 which Ryan co-sponsored along with Akin:
Quote:

(B) the life of each human being begins with fertilization, cloning, or its functional equivalent, irrespective of sex, health, function or disability, defect, stage of biological development, or condition of dependency, at which time every human being shall have all the legal and constitutional attributes and privileges of personhood
Quote:

Ryan and Akin’s personhood bill would treat killing a fertilized egg as the same thing as homicide. Such an interpretation would not simply ban abortion, it could turn many forms of birth control into the legal equivalent of a murder weapon. Many forms of contraception, including many birth control pills, function in part by inhibiting a fertilized egg from implanting in a woman’s uterus. Thus, Ryan and Akin’s personhood bill could render the act of using many forms of oral contraception the equivalent of a homicide crime.

Let's be clear about what we're debating and the facts involved in it.
Quote:

The real issue was the absurdness of Akin's remarks, about 'legitimate' rape, and the idea that women's bodies will 'shut down' most pregnancies resulting from rape.
No, the REAL issue is that he's not alone in believing that, hasn't been for thirty years, and that Ryan is right there beside him, with Romney bouncing back and forth, thus making it necessary for people to think HARD about whether they want Romney/Ryan in power. Bear in mind that, when asked if he'd sign a personhood bill, Romney said he'd be "tickled" to. Ergo, when he said that anyway, he was right alongside Ryan and Akin. Given his penchant for saying whatever is politically expedient at the time, and that the GOP see him as a "figurehead" with Ryan actually deciding policy, it's a very SERIOUS issue.

It's an extremely serious issue, which would affect the entire lives of millions of women in this country. Whatever you may feel personally, I don't see how you could possibly defend any of that. Never is it taken into account how being forced to bear a child would affect a woman's life, all that's talked about is the rights of, or "punishment" of, a fertilized egg--I never hear a word about how it would affect the woman. If anyone can find ANYTHING relating to how banning abortion would affect the women forced to bear children, I would really appreciate reading it, because I can't find anything. Nevada Senate candidate Sharron Angle, when asked on a conservative radio show, "What do you say to a young girl who’s raped by her father? Let’s say she’s pregnant. How do you explain this to her in terms of wanting her to go through with the process of having the baby?" Her response was, "I think two wrongs don’t make a right. I have been in the situation of counseling young girls, not 13 but 15, who have had very at risk, difficult pregnancies. And my counsel was to look for alternatives, which they did. They found that they had made what was really a lemon situation into lemonade." That's what they want to do with incest victims, tell them to "make lemonade". Note she says very at-risk, difficult pregnancies. While Ryan leaves open the idea of "the woman's life", who exactly makes that decision? That's not clear. Nor have any of them made any effort to deal with the child after birth: exactly the opposite. Many, especially young, women would be forced to have a child, while Ryan and his cronies leave her financially destitute, cutting social safety net programs for children as Ryan has voted to do consistently. How does that make ANY sense?

There are so many issues which bring this stance into question. Ryan's view that 'the right of “choice” of one human being cannot trump the right to “life” of another' completely ignores the "rights" of a person who is forced to have a child against her will; forced child-bearing is something out of the middle ages, in my opinion.


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Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:03 AM

HKCAVALIER


And, I'm not sure this has been made clear (sorry if this has been covered), but it's in the 2012 Republican platform:

"Faithful to the 'self-evident' truths enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, we assert the sanctity of human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed."

Akin's beliefs are not a result of misspeaking. They are not some wacko fringe notion he got from "some doctor." They're what the GOP is using to justify the platform. Akin has said that his term "legitimate rape" is the same as "forcible rape" which was in the Personhood Bill he and Paul Ryan cosponsored.

But the platform goes even further than the personhood bill. "The right to life which cannot be infringed." It's absolute, with no exceptions even to protect the mother's health. So, it's explicit in the GOP platform: the zygote has an uninfringeable right to life. And therefore, in cases where the pregnancy endangers the mother's own life, the mother has no such right to life. The very definition of a "second class citizen." They want to make this "right" of the zygote an amendment to the Constitution!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:15 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


By the way, for anyone naive enough to think that this is all about Akin and whether he's actually stupid enough to believe that a woman can't get pregnant through rape, here's what he had to say yesterday by way of explaining himself:

"I misspoke one word in one sentence on one day."

So what was the ONE WORD he thinks he got wrong?






"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:21 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)






"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:25 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
OK, the whole "legitimate" rape term is horrifying and completely bogus, but I can see how a certain misogynistic cold-hearted ass-hat might work very hard to convince himself that most rapes are not "really" rapes.



Julian Assange?

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Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:47 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
So what was the ONE WORD he thinks he got wrong?


He meant "forcible" not "legitimate." See? That makes it all better.


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Wednesday, August 22, 2012 9:43 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Another reason the GOP is running away from Akin so fast...Trying to put some distance between him and Paul Ryan!


The truth is that Akin has his office in the same building as Nancy Pelosi and dozens of elected Democrats.

On a more serious track I note for the record that you can't rape the willing...but neither can you abort them. Both are involuntary acts against the consent individual suffering the harm. Heck...the 'I wish I was never born' being a bad thing goes all the way back to 'Its a Wonderful Life'.

They need a sequel, 'Its a Wonderful Abortion' about a mother who aborts her child and then gets the chance to see how it would have been had her child lived. "Every time a bell rings a baby is sucked into a tube."

Abortion is a crime against imagination. It kills not just a few cells but everything a person can be. Life has so much potential, abortion is just...empty. Its like the cat in the box...only certain and without any real hope. There is no 'might be' no 'could be'.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Wednesday, August 22, 2012 10:26 AM

HKCAVALIER


Cue up the Monty Python video!

3, 2, 1...



HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, August 22, 2012 12:42 PM

PENGUIN








King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

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Wednesday, August 22, 2012 12:44 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:

Abortion is a crime against imagination. It kills not just a few cells but everything a person can be. Life has so much potential, abortion is just...empty. Its like the cat in the box...only certain and without any real hope. There is no 'might be' no 'could be'.




A "crime against imagination"? So you're saying it's thoughtcrime? It's not a crime. It's not a person. It's a few cells. The "imaginary" thing here is that there's a crime going on. Once again the GOP shows that it's happy to put the "rights" of imaginary people far ahead of the rights of women.

Shocker.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, August 22, 2012 1:31 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Update : RNC adds 'Carrying Beaver Repellent Spray In Purse' to Party Platform as new legitimate rape qualifying activity.

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Wednesday, August 22, 2012 1:44 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Abortion is a crime against imagination. It kills not just a few cells but everything a person can be. Life has so much potential, abortion is just...empty. Its like the cat in the box...only certain and without any real hope. There is no 'might be' no 'could be'.



This is a perfect illustration of why the woman is not mentioned in the Republican argument: the unborn is something the wingers can *imagine* as they wish. They can live in their dream world and hope this bundle of cells will be brain-washed into another religion-ruled soldier of the right.

A woman who owns her own body? That they cannot make use of as they wish. Hence - they put their imaginary friends future above very real, very alive women.

It's all about who they can control.

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Wednesday, August 22, 2012 1:58 PM

HKCAVALIER




HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, August 22, 2012 2:51 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Is the unborn a citizen?

Bingo!

Whether the unborn SHOULD be citizens is at the very heart of this debate.



-----
So many gods, so many creeds,
So many paths that wind and wind,
While just the art of being kind
is all the sad world needs.
- Ella Wheeler Wilcox, poet (1850-1919)

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Wednesday, August 22, 2012 3:20 PM

HKCAVALIER


At this point I can't help thinking of Caligula appointing his horse to the Senate in Rome. We call 'em "individual rights" and the "rights of citizens." We talk about "civic duty." What does a zygote have to do with any of that? There is no individual in a zygote. But we've already had this conversation to death. *sigh*

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, August 22, 2012 3:36 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)






"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, August 22, 2012 3:56 PM

MAL4PREZ


From a discussion I'm having elsewhere: I'll post this here to get the debate warmed up.

Sometime in the past year or two I read some articles about the emotional toll on young woman who were forced to give birth and give their child up for adoption. It sounded pretty awful. I don't have an easy solution, but I believe a woman who doesn't want to be pregnant - whether due to rape or accidents or even irresponsible behavior - should be able to end her pregnancy early on. Privately. Without question. It's her right as owner of her body and her life. It bothers me that the conversation has been re-framed, so that women only can own their bodies if they've already lost ownership of their bodies through rape. There's a big goalpost shift that's happened, moving the debate to where it is. The woman's freedom has been removed.

Conversely, (as I've said on this thread) I'm horrified by the idea of an 8.5 or 9 month pregnant woman deciding to destory what is pretty much a baby. I don't like that at all.

So where's the line? I don't know. I don't think there is one. But, being an atheist and one of 7 billion people on a planet that doesn't need more people, I prefer to err on the side of personal freedom of choice for those who are already living. You know, that seldom-mentioned woman.

It really kills me how little the woman is discussed. Even in the present media storm: the pregnant woman is only being spoke of and supported if she got raped. WTF? Are we nothing but victims?

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Wednesday, August 22, 2012 5:07 PM

HKCAVALIER


Hey Mal4,

I know plenty of sane people for whom the woman's rights are central to the issue of abortion (i.e.: pretty much all of 'em). And we all know that this is the right's attempt to undermine the right to privacy. But I think the wingers have in this instance gone a little crazy on top of wanting to undermine all of our civil rights. The conservatives have just gone so far off the rails into madness and viciousness, there's no having the real conversation with them around. I mean all this crap about "the single greatest genocide in human history" stuff is pure evil. And completely disingenuous.

I had a fantasy: in the bizarro world where the right-wing get a "right to life" ammendment to the Constitution passed, the ACLU finally are able to win their case against the death penalty. "The right to life shall not be infringed." Then they succeed in outlawing war and the use of lethal force by the police.

So, it's pretty clear to me: that world is never gonna come to be. It's just madness and viciousness and it will pass.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, August 22, 2012 5:41 PM

REDREAD

The poster formerly known as yinyang.


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Conversely, (as I've said on this thread) I'm horrified by the idea of an 8.5 or 9 month pregnant woman deciding to destory what is pretty much a baby. I don't like that at all.



I've read that past a certain point (12 weeks? viability?), it's medically easier for everyone to induce labor than abort any other way. So I think these kind of late, late stage abortion scenarios are a moot point. If in order to abort past the point of viability you have induced labor anyway, then it seems to me that the obvious solution is that any parent carrying a viable fetus who doesn't want to be pregnant any more should be allowed to induce (or have a C-section) whenever they want. And then the hospital should do their best to ensure survival of the (now) baby and put it up for adoption, unless for some reason the parent changes their mind and wants the baby after all, or the other parent wants to raise them. The only exception to that would be if the fetus has no chance of survival.

Does that make sense? I feel like I'm being unnecessarily wordy, but I can't think of a better way to phrase anything.

(I'm using gender neutral language because while very few people who aren't women get pregnant, it is a possibility, and I'd rather we not confuse sex [uterus] for gender [female]. I understand, however, that the attack on abortion rights has basically everything to do with the fact that it's almost always women who get pregnant.)

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Wednesday, August 22, 2012 9:14 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I'm really interested in where these nutjob Repos stand when it comes to IVF procedures. I have met your conservative anti abortion type people who seem to manage these processes, despite the fact that they usually result in zygotes being destroyed.

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Thursday, August 23, 2012 1:38 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I'm really interested in where these nutjob Repos stand when it comes to IVF procedures. I have met your conservative anti abortion type people who seem to manage these processes, despite the fact that they usually result in zygotes being destroyed.




So-called "personhood" amendments would do away with them completely. You cannot by any means destroy a fertilized egg, or you will be charged with murder. That is the official GOP position.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Thursday, August 23, 2012 7:44 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


"What Mal4 and Cav said", essentially. Just to add, I think someone wondered about what "doctor" Akin got his info from. That's been solved; it's a Dr. Wilke, long a pro-life proponent and big in the pro-life circles for his "knowledge" on things such as this:
Quote:

Representative Todd Akin’s assertion that women who are victims of “legitimate rape” rarely get pregnant provoked outrage across the political spectrum, but the views he articulated are far from new in anti-abortion circles.

Dr. John C. Willke, a general practitioner with obstetric training and a former president of the National Right to Life Committee, was an early proponent of this view, articulating it in a book originally published in 1985 and again in a 1999 article. He reiterated it in an interview Monday.

“This is a traumatic thing — she’s, shall we say, she’s uptight,” Dr. Willke said of a woman being raped, adding, “She is frightened, tight, and so on. And sperm, if deposited in her vagina, are less likely to be able to fertilize. The tubes are spastic.”

(It goes on to debunk that, citing real doctors)




He read from Dr. Willke’s 1999 article, which described what is “certainly one of the most important reasons why a rape victim rarely gets pregnant, and that’s physical trauma.”

He continued with the article: “To get and stay pregnant a woman’s body must produce a very sophisticated mix of hormones. Hormone production is controlled by a part of the brain that is easily influenced by emotions. There’s no greater emotional trauma that can be experienced by a woman than an assault rape. This can radically upset her possibility of ovulation, fertilization, implantation and even nurturing of a pregnancy.”

Mr. Fischer concluded: “In other words, ladies and gentleman, Todd Akin was exactly right.”

Dr. Willke, 87, asserted yesterday that “way under 1 percent” of rape victims become pregnant, not just because of female biology but because about half of rapists “do not deposit sperm in the vagina.” That, Dr. Willke said, is because many rapists have “a preference for rectal intercourse over vaginal”; experience “premature ejaculation, which is a major factor”; or “some of these guys just plain aren’t fertile.”

But several experts said there is no solid data supporting such contentions. A 1996 study in the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology, generally considered one of the few peer-reviewed research efforts on this subject, estimated that 5 percent of rapes result in pregnancy.

“Yeah, there are all sorts of hormones, including ones that cause your heart to beat fast when you’re frightened,” said Dr. Greene. But he added, “I’m not aware of any data that says that reduces a woman’s risk of getting pregnant.”

As for the contention that a rape victim’s fallopian tubes tighten, Dr. Grimes, formerly of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, said, “That’s nonsense. Everything is working. The tube is very small anyway and sperm are very tiny — they’re excellent swimmers.” http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/21/us/politics/rape-assertions-are-dism
issed-by-health-experts.html#h
ARE PEOPLE WHO ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE THIS--It's not just "one nutcase".

Wilke has written extensively on his beliefs about abortion, and is cited by pro-lifers frequently.
Quote:


Dr. John Willke, a self-described “founding father” of the pro-life movement, is popping up in the news this week, credited with a dubious honor—helping to inspire Rep. Todd Akin’s controversial views on rape.

In an interview with The Daily Beast, Dr. Willke said he believes Akin simply made “a slip of the tongue.”

Dr. Willke, the president of a pro-life group, the Life Issues Institute, and also a physician, has been active in the movement for decades. In the 1970s, he wrote a book called Handbook on Abortion, which he updated and republished in seven editions over the years. In 1984, he helped found the International Right to Life Federation, a group that connects global pro-life groups. And in 1999, he wrote an essay saying that pregnancy from rape is rare. That’s the piece getting cited in the media now.

In that essay, Willke argued that factors such as physical trauma, stress, infertility, and birth control make it highly unlikely for women to get pregnant from rape. “There’s no greater emotional trauma that can be experienced by a woman than an assault rape,” he said. “This can radically upset her possibility of ovulation, fertilization, implantation, and even nurturing of a pregnancy.”

He offered up a complex mathematical calculation in the essay on how he arrived at his theory that pregnancy from rape is extremely rare. He also drew a distinction between “forcible rape,” statutory rape, and date rape. He said date rape counted as “forcible rape,” but that statutory rape was in a different category, as it could be consensual.

He continues to hold these views today. “The whole business of fertilization with a woman’s body is a delicate mechanism,” he told The Daily Beast. “A lot of things contribute to it.”

Lynn Paltrow, the executive director of the advocacy group National Advocates for Pregnant Women, dismisses Dr. Willke’s claims as “junk science” in the “abortion re-criminalization movement.” She said such remarks from both Dr. Willke and Akin “reflect what’s really going on—such profound disrespect for women and pregnant women. These comments get enormous coverage in the media and get treated as if they’re serious.” She added, “Women’s bodies are set up to reproduce. It doesn’t really matter what their head wants.”

Dr. Willke said he thinks it would be “absolute absurdity” for Akin to quit the race over the rape flap. “We’re in a political campaign season, and if you’re a Democrat, you’re gonna take advantage of this,” he said. He added that Akin “made one big mistake—a factual error. That’s what blew this up. He said if it’s a ‘legitimate’ rape. That’s a contradiction. There’s actual rape and there’s attempted rape. Nothing’s legitimate about it.” He believes Akin meant to say “forcible rape.”

Dr. Willke, who also served as president of the National Right to Life Committee for 10 years, said he expects to see abortion outlawed in his lifetime. “I’m getting pretty old. I’m in my late 80s, but I think I will live to see abortion end,” he said. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/08/21/todd-akin-finds-a-fri
end-in-john-willke-a-pro-life-founding-father.html
guess that answers our question on what's "legitimate" rape: "forceable rape". I hope this bastard DOESN'T see abortion made legal before he dies; in fact I hope it goes the other way. NOTHING will "end" abortion, it's been around since time began; all they will do is force it underground and women will die.

By the way, efforts by anyone to separate Ryan or Romney from this debate aren't viable:
Quote:

Mitt Romney met John Willke, the doctor credited with popularising Todd Akin’s controversial views on rape and abortion, during the current election campaign and told him they agreed on “almost everything,” Dr Willke said.

The 87-year-old endorsed Mr Romney’s bid for the 2008 Republican presidential nomination and was one of his official campaign surrogates. ”I am proud to have the support of a man who has meant so much to the pro-life movement,” Mr Romney said at the time.

Mr Romney and Paul Ryan, his running mate, have denounced Mr Akin's remarks. Dr Willke has been given no role in Mr Romney’s 2012 campaign and aides stress that the candidate disagrees with his theory on rape.

However, Dr Willke told The Daily Telegraph that he did meet Mr Romney during a presidential primary campaign stop in the doctor's home city of Cincinnati, Ohio, in October last year. Local news reports at the time noted that the candidate held “private meetings” during the visit.

“He told me ‘thank you for your support – we agree on almost everything, and if I am elected President I will make some major pro-life pronouncements’,” Dr Willke said in a telephone interview on Tuesday.
Dr Willke, a political ally of Mr Akin's who put forward the theory in a 1985 book, claimed this week that when a woman is raped her "tubes are spastic", preventing conception. Mainstream scientific literature rejects the theory. Studies show rapes result in tens of thousands of US pregancies per year.

The doctor said that he had also met Mr Ryan, who sits in Congress for the Wisconsin district in which one of his sons lives, several times. He said that after listening to Dr Willke’s views on abortion during their last encounter, Mr Ryan replied: “That’s where I’m at”.

Dr Willke praised Mr Ryan as “a very obedient Catholic”, who would make a “great Vice President”. He contrased the Republican congressman with Joe Biden, the current Vice President, “who claims to be Catholic but doesn’t sound like one and doesn’t act like one”.

A spokesman for Mr Ryan did not return a request for comment. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-election/9493653/US-elect
ion-Mitt-Romney-met-Todd-Akin-doctor-John-Willke-during-2012-campaign.html

So never kid yourselves; Akin and this man are definitely connected to the Romney/Ryan campaign and have been for a long time. IT'S NOT JUST ONE NUT JOB SAYING SOMETHING STUPID, got it?



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Thursday, August 23, 2012 8:31 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by REDREAD:(I'm using gender neutral language because while very few people who aren't women get pregnant, it is a possibility, and I'd rather we not confuse sex [uterus] for gender [female]. I understand, however, that the attack on abortion rights has basically everything to do with the fact that it's almost always women who get pregnant.)


I don't think you have to be so save, it ispretty much understood that when you are talking about pregnacy you are referring to person of the female sex and not about gender.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 23, 2012 8:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Akin seems to have some supporters--tho' they don't mention the thing about not getting pregnant from rape:
Quote:

Even as the official Republican Party continues to try to derail Missouri Senate candidate Todd Akin over his remarks about “legitimate rape,” a powerful force within the GOP has begun rallying to the candidate’s side: the party’s socially conservative base.

Powerful Christian activists in the GOP have begun pushing back against party leadership, alleging it has gone too far in trying to thwart Akin and that it is attempting to sideline issues that social conservatives care about, such as abortion.

The criticism is creating major tensions between the mainstream Republican Party and a key part of its base days before the GOP’s convention is set to open in Tampa, Florida.

“Following the pounding of Todd Akin by the GOP kings and lieutenants in the last 36 hours, I've come to the conclusion that the real issue is the soul of America,” wrote David Lane, an evangelical activist who’s influential in the Republican Party, in an e-mail to fellow activists Thursday morning.

Akin has bowed to Republican pressure to skip the Republican convention next week. But the Senate candidate was in Tampa on Wednesday night to meet with a powerful group of religious conservatives, according to a source familiar with the trip.

In a note to supporters Wednesday night, conservative Family Research Council President Tony Perkins heaped criticism on the GOP for abandoning Akin.

"Todd Akin has a long and distinguished record of defending women, children, and families – and unlike the GOP establishment, I refuse to throw him under the bus over one inarticulate comment for which he has apologized,” wrote Perkins, who is in Tampa attending events leading up the convention.

“As for the GOP, it has no rational basis for deserting Akin when it has stood by moderate Republicans who've done worse,” Perkins continued. “Singling out Todd suggests a double standard, designed to drive out social conservatives.”

Hooo, boy; here we go!


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