REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Pregnancy from Rape a 'Gift From God'

POSTED BY: MAGONSDAUGHTER
UPDATED: Monday, November 5, 2012 05:54
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2868
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Wednesday, October 24, 2012 10:23 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Says Republican senator.

Next they'll all be for stoning adulterers....


Quote:

Indiana Republican Senate candidate Richard Mourdock has said that pregnancy caused by rape is something "God intended" and not a situation that justifies an abortion, roiling a tight race less than two weeks before the election.

Mr Mourdock's comment came in response to a voter-submitted question toward the end of a debate on Tuesday night with his opponents, Democratic US Representative Joe Donnelly and Libertarian candidate Andrew Horning.

"I've struggled with it myself for a long time, but I came to realise that life is that gift from God," said Mr Mourdock, the state's treasurer. "And, I think, even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."
Republican Richard Mourdock participates in a debate with Democrat Joe Donnelly and Libertarian Andrew Horning.

Mr Mourdock, who described his position on abortion as believing that "life begins at conception," made his remark two months after Missouri Senate Republican candidate Todd Akin said that "legitimate rape" rarely leads to pregnancy.

Mr Akin, a US House member seeking to unseat Democratic Senator Claire McCaskill, later apologised while rejecting calls from fellow Republicans to withdraw from the Missouri race.

The Indiana contest is among the most closely watched in the US Senate, along with races in Massachusetts, Missouri and Virginia. Republicans must hold all five of their competitive seats in the November 6 election and pick up four seats to win control of the Senate.

A Tea Party favourite, Mr Mourdock, defeated six-term Republican incumbent Richard Lugar by 20 percentage points in a May primary with an anti-tax, anti-Washington message. Mr Mourdock's general election contest with Mr Donnelly is rated as a toss-up by the nonpartisan Cook Political Report.

Mr Mourdock, 61, has the endorsement of Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney, who voiced his support in an ad that began airing on October 22 in Evansville, according to Kantar Media's CMAG, which tracks advertising.

"Governor Romney disagrees with Richard Mourdock's comments, and they do not reflect his views," Romney spokeswoman Andrea Saul said in an e-mail.
Says Republican senator.

During last night's debate in New Albany, Indiana, Mr Mourdock said he knew that some people disagreed with his abortion stance and that he respected their point of view.

"The only exception I have to have an abortion is in that case of the life of the mother," he said.

Representative Debbie Wasserman Schultz, a Florida Democrat and chairwoman of the Democratic National Committee, assailed Mr Mourdock's remark.

"Richard Mourdock's rape comments are outrageous and demeaning to women," Ms Wasserman Schultz said in a statement posted last night on the DNC website. "Unfortunately, they've become part and parcel of the modern Republican Party's platform toward women's health."



Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/world/republican-senator-says-pregnancy-from-
rape-intended-by-god-20121024-2863o.html#ixzz2AFX05Rpc


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Wednesday, October 24, 2012 10:41 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


If you hold to the belief that there IS a god, and that each life is of his making , his design, and that every human is a gift FROM said god, regardless of the manner in which said human is created, be it from loving, responsible parents, rape, a test tube, or immaculate conception, I guess this guy has a point.

It's not a point I happen to agree with, nor would I be terribly eager to VOTE for anyone who thinks like this, but I suppose there are some that will.

I think the idiot could have said this on Nov 7th, but that's not what he did.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, October 24, 2012 10:48 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

It's not a point I happen to agree with, nor would I be terribly eager to VOTE for anyone who thinks like this, but I suppose there are some that will.




Romney endorsed him, and stands by that endorsement, apparently.

Quote:


I think the idiot could have said this on Nov 7th, but that's not what he did.



Well, if the debate was held the day after the election, I guess he could have waited to say it...





"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, October 24, 2012 10:53 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Romney endorses him. So frelling what ? He doesn't speak FOR Romney. This is much ado about nothing, trying to tie him w/ Romney. Like Gloria Allred, who is trying to vilify him via a case where he simply submitted testimony on some one elses divorce trial.

We know how Obama works, in getting divorce records released, in order to embarrass his opponents. Since Mitt's been married to 1 woman, for over 40 years, the slime balls had to try another angle. Typical low life scum.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, October 24, 2012 10:56 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


A tough one for Republicans this. Not as dickish and idiotic as the Akin comments - but therefore not as renouncable. I suspect we may see a split amongst conservatives over this, with some renouncing and some trying to rally to his defense.

Meanwhile the message a lot of women will hear is, 'If you get raped and become pregnant I believe that was God's plan, and I'm willing to use government to force you to have the baby.'

ETA: I think this is lose-lose for Romney. If he backs Mourdock he alienates a lot of women voters; if he distances himself he may alienate his base...

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, October 24, 2012 11:04 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

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Wednesday, October 24, 2012 11:40 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


New Mourdock bumper sticker:


Rape: God's Gift to Women!



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, October 24, 2012 11:42 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


BTW, Romney's ads endorsing Mourdock are still running. He says he'd be "proud to have him in Washington."

And Mitt is running on the GOP platform, which basically is what Mourdock was referring to.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, October 24, 2012 12:56 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

I think the idiot could have said this on Nov 7th, but that's not what he did.




Yeah coz its better if you don't know the views of the party/candidate you are voting for. Then it's just a wondrous surprise.

This viewpoint is no more valid than any other beliefs which determine that laws should be based on what someone heard a non existent invisible being saying to someone a couple of thousand years ago.

They may well just be his personal beliefs, but seeing as this man will never become pregnant as a result of rape, so his personal views on what women should or should not do are entirely inconsequential. This then becomes a political matter. He like many other republicans have taken the stand that it is their business to force women who have conceived in rape to carry a baby to term. Yuck. This stuff is dark ages stuff.


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Wednesday, October 24, 2012 3:55 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
If you hold to the belief that there IS a god, and that each life is of his making , his design, and that every human is a gift FROM said god, regardless of the manner in which said human is created, be it from loving, responsible parents, rape, a test tube, or immaculate conception, I guess this guy has a point.

It's not a point I happen to agree with, nor would I be terribly eager to VOTE for anyone who thinks like this, but I suppose there are some that will.

I think the idiot could have said this on Nov 7th, but that's not what he did.



So Rappy's problem with the guy isn't what he said, but his timing in when he said it.


I'll try to hide my surprise.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, October 24, 2012 4:28 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

So Rappy's problem with the guy isn't what he said, but his timing in when he said it.


I'll try to hide my surprise.



Per this issue it is, yeah. He should shut the hell up, because abortion isn't relevant in this election. Not sure it'll be relevant in any upcoming election.

Jobs, the economy, energy costs, over regulation, taxes, I can think of a long list of issues which will affect people far more than what this nut job thinks about matters concerning rape and abortion.

But because Obama sucks so incredibly bad at his job, and he can't run on his record, you have to phony up this 'war on women' crap, and hope and PRAY voters think emotionally instead of logically.



" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, October 24, 2012 5:01 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)




Pray tell, why do Republicans keep bringing it up and stepping on their dicks if it's all just "phonied up" and nonexistent?

"The Left" didn't write it into the GOP platform, did they?

And if you don't think it's an issue, then you clearly have no idea how the Supreme Court appointments work.


I get that it's something you really wish wouldn't come up. I really do get that. Because every time it comes up, you guys look like a bunch of idiots.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, October 24, 2012 5:28 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)








"WHAT 'war on women'?! I have no idea what you're talking about! Nobody ever said anything like any of that! Those are just a few bad apples. No one is saying these things!"


Well, except for the GOP's national party platform, of course.


Once is an accident, twice a coincidence, but at some point you have a party platform.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, October 24, 2012 6:03 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!




RT @daphnebeauty: @NathanFillion I wanna do you Dothraki style--from behind and slightly rapey. #gameofthroneisms


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, October 24, 2012 6:28 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I think little rappy is a virgin. It looks like all he know about sex is what he reads and how his hand feels.

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Wednesday, October 24, 2012 6:32 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
I think little rappy is a virgin. It looks like all he know about sex is what he reads and how his hand feels.






Yep. That's me !




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, October 24, 2012 6:49 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


So, how about you don't talk about what can happen between real people in the real world. B/c frankly, your confusion of your fantasy with reality is creepy. That you would mistake a slightly risque fictional reference with the real brutality of rape, and think that it has anything to do with forced pregnancy, is beyond stupid.

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Wednesday, October 24, 2012 7:02 PM

JONGSSTRAW


A few weeks back I posted a thread here about Republicans and abortion. I wrote:

"1) I don't know when or how religious zealots hijacked the Republican Party on this issue, but any true Conservative ought to advocate booting all the Spanish Inquisitors the fuck out of the Party. Romney's a fool for flipping over to the wrong side of this.

2) If I were a girl or woman and someone told me I couldn't have an abortion if I wanted one, I'd tell 'em to fuck off or I'd kill him."


And since then it's only gotten worse, much worse, ridiculously worse. The Republican Party is headed towards extinction.


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Thursday, October 25, 2012 12:56 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
So, how about you don't talk about what can happen between real people in the real world. B/c frankly, your confusion of your fantasy with reality is creepy. That you would mistake a slightly risque fictional reference with the real brutality of rape, and think that it has anything to do with forced pregnancy, is beyond stupid.



The Left are going to have to decide which sort of discussion you want to have on this matter. A serious one, where both sides present their views, honestly, sincerely, and showing respect for each other, OR dabble in the absurd, with idiotic images of ' rape advisory charts ', and telling women to " wake the fuck up! ", or attempting to insult others by suggesting that they're virgins or some such.

Pick one.

The tweet made @Nathan was in response to the 'humor' posted by you and kwickie. Whether YOU found it inappropriate or not, doesn't matter to me.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, October 25, 2012 1:28 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
2) If I were a girl or woman and someone told me I couldn't have an abortion if I wanted one, I'd tell 'em to fuck off or I'd kill him."



Amen!

One of the many things that squicks me out about the direction of the abortion debate is that it's so focused on rape. It has become a question of whether a woman who's already lost control of her body ought to be given a little control back - so ladies, 100% control from the start? Not a chance these neo-taliban righties would "allow" us that.

They have effectively removed the modern, empowered woman from the conversation. It's all about the "rights" of the bundle of cells, as if it exists in a vacuum with no woman attached. And we only "earn" the right to choose our fates if we've already been violently violated. It's as if we'd be rewarded for being victims, because anything other than victimization must mean we're whores and we ought to pay.

Go after any of these loons enough, and you'll see that exact mentality. It's come out of folks like Rappy plenty enough - they want to punish women who own their sexuality. That's what it's all about. And that's bullshit.

I'm with Jong. No matter the situation, no matter the circumstances, if a woman wants an early term abortion, she has a right to it: safe, private, and covered by her health insurance. Doesn't matter if rape or incest was involved or not. It's her body, it's her choice.

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Thursday, October 25, 2012 8:01 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

So Rappy's problem with the guy isn't what he said, but his timing in when he said it.


I'll try to hide my surprise.



Per this issue it is, yeah. He should shut the hell up, because abortion isn't relevant in this election. Not sure it'll be relevant in any upcoming election.




How many anti-abortion bills have been introduced into this session of Congress by the GOP?

If you don't think it's an issue, you're not paying attention.





"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Thursday, October 25, 2012 8:04 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
So, how about you don't talk about what can happen between real people in the real world. B/c frankly, your confusion of your fantasy with reality is creepy. That you would mistake a slightly risque fictional reference with the real brutality of rape, and think that it has anything to do with forced pregnancy, is beyond stupid.



The Left are going to have to decide which sort of discussion you want to have on this matter. A serious one, where both sides present their views, honestly, sincerely, and showing respect for each other, OR dabble in the absurd, with idiotic images of ' rape advisory charts ', and telling women to " wake the fuck up! ", or attempting to insult others by suggesting that they're virgins or some such.

Pick one.

The tweet made @Nathan was in response to the 'humor' posted by you and kwickie. Whether YOU found it inappropriate or not, doesn't matter to me.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "





Soooo... In response to posts trying to wake people up to the very real threat the GOP presents... you post up your favorite rape joke.


Yeah, no wonder you vote for these fuckwits. You're one of them.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Thursday, October 25, 2012 8:06 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Can we all agree that this is not a human being?





"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Thursday, October 25, 2012 8:54 AM

BYTEMITE


Is that a real picture or some sort of computer simulation?

Looks like a gummy bear.

...Will never eat gummy bears again.

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Thursday, October 25, 2012 9:20 AM

HKCAVALIER


Ontongeny recapitulates...GUMMI BEARS!!! QED!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, October 25, 2012 9:40 AM

BYTEMITE


It only gets worse when you think about where gelatin comes from. D:

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Thursday, October 25, 2012 11:02 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
[The Left are going to have to decide which sort of discussion you want to have on this matter. A serious one, where both sides present their views, honestly, sincerely, and showing respect for each other, OR dabble in the absurd, with idiotic images of ' rape advisory charts ', and telling women to " wake the fuck up! ", or attempting to insult others by suggesting that they're virgins or some such.



How about no discussion. How about we let women, their doctors, and there families make their health care decisions?

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.

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Thursday, October 25, 2012 11:10 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Is that a real picture or some sort of computer simulation?

Looks like a gummy bear.

...Will never eat gummy bears again.




Real picture.

Is it a person?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Thursday, October 25, 2012 10:19 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Real picture.

Is it a person?




It's a human being. (Hate that bullshit argument that it's not. It's human.)

It's not yet a person. (Birth. The moment of physical separation from the 'host', to me, in terms of personhood rights.)

Its rights do not trump those of its host. Ever.

Every abortion is a sad failure of circumstances to be optimal. It's tragic and sad and shouldn't ever have to happen. We should strive to stop them from ever being necessary. But the world is not perfect, so when the necessity arises (i.e. a woman feels she needs one), women should not be impeded in determining what happens to their own bodies, even if it is at the sad expense of an early-stage human being. No one has a right to another person's body, even to live.

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Friday, October 26, 2012 1:33 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Ahem.

Y'all DO know it doesn't STOP here - it's not just sex/rape/pregnancy/abortion, that's just the easy hook.
The keystone here is the real target, and you know what it is ?

THE RIGHT TO VOTE.

Since they cannot, dare not, attack it directly what they mean to do, along with keeping women on the back foot under a sustained assult to prevent them from fighting back, is make necessary medical conduct a Felony, and why ?
They're NOT gonna really "enforce" any of it, they're not gonna put em in prison outside of some high profile "examples" cause there's no room, all that REALLY want is that Felony charge applied because it disenfranchises them - not only removing their right to vote, but to bearing arms in self defense as well, buy one get one free, you might say.

And at THAT point, soon goes personhood and human rights as well, effectively returning women to the status of chattel, or the kinda-sorta-same-damn-thing status of children in our legal and social systems.

I mentioned one 22yr old girl back during that El Dorado/FLDS mess who was placed with a foster family (who had been told some serious falsehoods about her beliefs by a vengeful CPS) and just how totally horrifying an experience for her it was to be stripped of her human rights, her whole personhood, because of CPS asserting that she was a minor.
Between that and certain physical manhandling (cause yanno a forced medical exam essentially IS the exact same fucking thing as what they were accusing the FLDS of, right ?) and being kicked down to the status of "child"...
That girl has some serious goddamn issues about it, complex post traumatic stress disorder, and felt so goddamn unsafe in the US that she emigrated to Canada over this.

I want you to IMAGINE, just for a moment, her horror, to be stripped of every right and resource that makes you an "adult", to be stripped of your dignity, your self sufficiency, any authority to even make your own goddamn decisions, totally dependant on the whim of people hostile to all you are and all that you believe....

And somewhere in there, when you truly understand it - you'll start to comprehend the enormous flood of rage I feel at anyone who supports this agenda in any way, shape, or form.

Had I the power, I would scour the very earth clean of them without the slightest twinge of conscience - and I WANT you to know that.
I don't have to share their predicament to understand it.

-Frem

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Friday, October 26, 2012 1:38 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Real picture.

Is it a person?




It's a human being. (Hate that bullshit argument that it's not. It's human.)

It's not yet a person. (Birth. The moment of physical separation from the 'host', to me, in terms of personhood rights.)

Its rights do not trump those of its host. Ever.

Every abortion is a sad failure of circumstances to be optimal. It's tragic and sad and shouldn't ever have to happen. We should strive to stop them from ever being necessary. But the world is not perfect, so when the necessity arises (i.e. a woman feels she needs one), women should not be impeded in determining what happens to their own bodies, even if it is at the sad expense of an early-stage human being. No one has a right to another person's body, even to live.





Actually, it's not a human being. It's not human. It's not a person.

That's an elephant embryo in the picture.





"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Friday, October 26, 2012 3:20 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:


Actually, it's not a human being. It's not human. It's not a person.

That's an elephant embryo in the picture.



Seriously??

Awesome. :D

I always fall for shit like that. Stand by what I said about the rest, of course, and if this is indeed a tiny trunkless elephant embryo it's also no less elephant than a human embryo would be human.

Anyway, that was neat. :)

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Friday, October 26, 2012 4:16 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Anyway, that was neat. :)


And a complete red herring.

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Friday, October 26, 2012 5:16 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Red herring? Nah... it just made a point more effectively than you ever could.

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Friday, October 26, 2012 5:33 AM

HKCAVALIER


See? You thought I was kidding, but it's true: whether human or pachyderm or herring, we all begin life as gummi bears!

I remember watching that old kommie kid's show Kaptain Kangaroo and they actually had a segment on this with a chart showing embryonic development. On the left side were 4 zygotes and then there were several columns moving to the right over the chart until the actual baby animal was pictured on the far right. So at the age of 5 I learned that we all start out with tails and we're pretty much indistinguishable from frogs or kittens until the last few weeks of gestation.

Can you IMAGINE the uproar if such a thing was tried on Sesame Street today???



HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, October 26, 2012 5:45 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Amen Sig! WELL DONE MIKE! In a rational discussion, someone should pull that on these right-wing nut-bags...except that they'd immediately cry foul and twist the argument. So I'll offer my own instead, which apparently the right would insist is not only a human but a PERSON, as well:

or

Beautiful? Yes. Human? No. Person? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

I see Rap has reverted to the party line:
Quote:

abortion isn't relevant in this election. Not sure it'll be relevant in any upcoming election.

It's aaaall about the economy, that's alll we should be thinking about, anything else is extraneous. Where have we been hearing that for...how long now? Obviously lefties can't think beyond their VAGINAS (a word Republican males can't even bear to be SPOKEN, we all know!). Obviously they believe "small government" is a government which only passes laws about what the party in power thinks is important...but not important enough to consider when casting our votes.

By the way, I posted a thread about this the day the guy SAID it, and nobody paid any attention. Just sayin'.

Thank gawd for Jong, apparently our ONLY intelligent conservative. You have no idea how grateful I am that we have you, Jong, to help remind me conservatives aren't all completely insane (or brainwashed)!

What's not getting through is that the left didn't "create" a war on women, we're RESPONDING to all the legislation that's been passed, not just what they say but that their actions have been so extremely focused on controlling women. THIS is what's happened since the ultra-conservatives got power in 2010:



Rap obviously feels we shouldn't be paying any attention to that...isn't he the one always complaining that we're "ignoring" the threat of terrorism? Comparing it to the Holocaust, that our ignorance leaves us in danger until it's too late? How late is "too late" for women's rights, does he think? IF he thinks? I know, he doesn't; what works for one thing doesn't hold for any other, unless HE thinks it does...got it.

Speaking of dabbling in the absurd:
Quote:

The Left are going to have to decide which sort of discussion you want to have on this matter. A serious one, where both sides present their views, honestly, sincerely, and showing respect for each other, OR dabble in the absurd

No sense pointing out to him that all the things said and done around abortion--AND CONTRACEPTION--are the absurd things, not people pointing them out. There IS no "serious debate" possible with these people, there is only one way: Theirs.

They unquestionably HAVE " effectively removed the modern, empowered woman from the conversation". "Empowered woman" is anathema to them, and that's what's terrifying. And I'M with Mal4: " I'm with Jong. No matter the situation, no matter the circumstances, if a woman wants an early term abortion, she has a right to it: safe, private, and covered by her health insurance. Doesn't matter if rape or incest was involved or not. It's her body, it's her choice." Or should be, if they weren't trying to take us back to the 19th century!

And Agent said it perfectly:
Quote:

Every abortion is a sad failure of circumstances to be optimal. It's tragic and sad and shouldn't ever have to happen. We should strive to stop them from ever being necessary. But the world is not perfect, so when the necessity arises (i.e. a woman feels she needs one), women should not be impeded in determining what happens to their own bodies, even if it is at the sad expense of an early-stage human being. No one has a right to another person's body, even to live.

Bottom line:
Quote:

How about no discussion. How about we let women, their doctors, and there families make their health care decisions?
Amen.


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Friday, October 26, 2012 9:41 AM

AGENTROUKA


I wouldn't call it a red herring so much as a reminder that there's a lot of knee-jerk reactions going on even with good intentions. It wasn't very objective of me to take that image and insist that it's human. I presumed a lot about what the point was.

I do disagree that the point as it appears to have been made is valid, though.


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
See? You thought I was kidding, but it's true: whether human or pachyderm or herring, we all begin life as gummi bears!

I remember watching that old kommie kid's show Kaptain Kangaroo and they actually had a segment on this with a chart showing embryonic development. On the left side were 4 zygotes and then there were several columns moving to the right over the chart until the actual baby animal was pictured on the far right. So at the age of 5 I learned that we all start out with tails and we're pretty much indistinguishable from frogs or kittens until the last few weeks of gestation.



I don't think that's necessarily true. From at least the halfway point the fetus tends to be pretty recognizable as human. And since it's human DNA. human tissue, and if uninterrupted a human baby at the end of gestation, calling it "not human" is kind of disingenuous.

More importantly, it doesn't need to be not-human for abortion to be legitimate.

I don't understand this line of argument at all. I think it's utterly possible to acknowledge that abortion ends human life (NOT a person, NOT infringing on any rights) without this undermining the fundamental right to the procedure. Of the women I know who have had abortions, none of them considered the embryo not-human. They were simply aware of the gravity of that decision and listened to themselves and how they felt about it and made a choice.

Why is it important to call it not-human, or gummy bear or whatever? It's not high-fructose corn syrup gestating.

Shying away from calling it human seems to me to weaken the defense for abortion because it implies that it needs to be not-human for abortion to be a valid choice. Which is not true.

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Friday, October 26, 2012 10:01 AM

HKCAVALIER


Hey AgentR,

I never meant to imply that the fetus wasn't "human." The gummi bear thing was pure send-up, 'cause the fetus does look like a gummi bear at that stage. I'm not a fan of the not human argument at all. It's a little nonsensical. I'm kinda on the other side of things entirely in that I would see the thorough-going similarity between us and all the other animals at the fundamental level would elevate the empathetic status of other species, not de-humanize us to the point that we see the fetus as not human. That kinda thinking only lends credence to DT's atrocity argument--y'know, if indeed we consider the fetus "inhuman" we're practically targeting it as the enemy.

For me the argument has always been about INDIVIDUAL rights. And seeing as an early stage fetus is not an individual at all, it has none of the associated rights of individuals. Same with "citizenship." Whereas, the mother is clearly an individual and a citizen. She needs to be treated like one.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, October 26, 2012 4:13 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

The Left are going to have to decide which sort of discussion you want to have on this matter. A serious one, where both sides present their views, honestly, sincerely, and showing respect for each other, OR dabble in the absurd, with idiotic images of ' rape advisory charts ', and telling women to " wake the fuck up! ", or attempting to insult others by suggesting that they're virgins or some such.

Pick one.




Once again, the 'left' isn't an homogenous mass, anymore than the 'right' is. The left doesn't pick anything, individuals choose how they are going to argue and in fact it is entirely possible to post serious replies and facetious diagrams, as indeed I have.

The difficulty in having a serious conversation about this is that for those people who are hard line on abortion - no exceptions, life begins at conception, their concerns are religious. They believe that once the sperm hits the egg, the soul is inserted and therefore it is a sin to destroy that soul. they may not say it, but that is the core of their belief. That is why people oppose morning after pills and anything that may be a fairly benign (in most people's views) measure to prevent pregnancy. So can you argue and debate on a scientific, a personal, an individual rights basis, but you will never convince such extremists, because of their belief regarding souls.

This debate, like many others in the US has been hijacked by the fundies, who have moved the right very right. The fact that the debate is not even about abortion rights, but definition of rape kind of demonstrates that.

Quote:

WASHINGTON: First it was Todd Akin. Then Steve King. Then Joe Walsh. Then Richard Mourdock.

One after another, Republican congressional nominees opened their mouths, inserted their feet and embarrassed their party.

Mr Akin, running for the US Senate in Missouri, said rape survivors don't need abortions because ''if it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down''.
Todd Akin

Todd Akin. Photo: AP

Mr King, an Iowa congressman up for re-election, deflected a question about abortions for 12-year-old rape victims by saying: ''I just haven't heard of that being a circumstance that's been brought to me in any personal way''. Mr Walsh, a House incumbent in Illinois, asserted that ''with modern technology and science, you can't find one instance'' where abortion is necessary to protect a woman's life or health.
Advertisement

Mr Mourdock, the Republican nominee for US Senate in Indiana, opined that ''even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen''.

For Republican presidential candidate, Mitt Romney, these episodes have been a two-month headache. First, he had to override his vice-presidential candidate, Paul Ryan's, opposition to abortions for rape victims. Then he had to apologise for Mr Akin's comment. Then he had to apologise for Mr Mourdock's. And the apology tour might be just getting started, because they are hardly alone.

Their view - that abortion should be banned even in cases of sexual assault - isn't just the party's official position. It's the most commonly held position among new Republican nominees for the US Senate.

Thirty-three Senate seats are at stake in next month's election. Five are held by Republican incumbents whose nominations were never seriously contested. In the remaining 28 states, three nominations (Connecticut, Hawaii and Rhode Island) were won by pro-choice candidates.

Eight (Arizona, California, Florida, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Virginia, and Wisconsin) went to candidates who said abortion should be outlawed except in cases of rape or incest.

Three (Delaware, Maryland and Minnesota) went to pro-lifers who haven't clarified their stance on exceptions. The rest - 12 nominations - went to candidates who would ban abortion even for survivors of sexual assault. That's a plurality of the party's primaries.

In Vermont, the state right-to-life committee-certified Republican nominee, John MacGovern, as ''fully pro-life''. When asked whether ''a woman should be forced by the government to give birth to a rapist's baby'', he said: ''I've always in my career and to this day been loyal to the principle of life … I'm pro-life to my core.''

In Ohio, the state Treasurer, Josh Mandel, rejected a rape exception: ''I'll do everything I can to protect innocent life.''

In Michigan, congressman, Pete Hoekstra, was asked if a woman should have to bear her rapist's child. Already on record against a rape exception, he replied: ''I believe life is a gift.''

In New York, a member of Mr Romney's Justice Advisory Committee, Wendy Long, boasted during her primary that she was ''100 per cent pro-life'', whereas her opponents would grant ''exceptions'' to an abortion ban.

In Washington, state senator, Michael Baumgartner, admitted that ''rape is a tragedy'' but concluded: ''I still believe life begins at conception. That is consistent with my Catholic beliefs. And I believe we must protect life.''

In North Dakota, a reporter asked the congressman, Rick Berg: ''You would not make an exception for rape?'' Mr Berg replied: ''No.''

The Senate numbers for Republicans are equally striking. Of the 28 non-incumbent nominees, 12 to 15 share the view of Mr Akin, Mr Mourdock and the party platform: a rape victim should not end her pregnancy.

This is no longer a fringe position. It isn't a couple of gaffes by renegade crackpots. It's the predominant view among Republican nominees for the nation's highest legislative body. It's what the Republican Party is.



Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/world/hardline-views-on-rape-in-republican-ma
instream-20121026-28b40.html#ixzz2AScvhG7w


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Friday, October 26, 2012 4:22 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Bottom line, scariest part of all, and something none of us should ever, ever forget:
Quote:

This is no longer a fringe position. It isn't a couple of gaffes by renegade crackpots. It's the predominant view among Republican nominees for the nation's highest legislative body. It's what the Republican Party is.


Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Thursday, November 1, 2012 3:04 PM

WISHIMAY


Oh, another one...

Someone really needs to rape these guys and then force them to wear one of those pregnancy suits for nine months and then strap a bag of rocks to their waist for 3 or four years for them to get it...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2226053/John-Koster-Abortion-l
egal-involves-rape-thing.html

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Thursday, November 1, 2012 3:30 PM

BYTEMITE


>_> I would... Have to decline on that "rape'll teach 'em different" thing. once a misogynist, always a misogynist, unfortunately. Even extreme circumstances like the one proposed doesn't really change how they see the situation.

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Thursday, November 1, 2012 5:31 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
Oh, another one...

Someone really needs to rape these guys and then force them to wear one of those pregnancy suits for nine months and then strap a bag of rocks to their waist for 3 or four years for them to get it...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2226053/John-Koster-Abortion-l
egal-involves-rape-thing.html



You really are an eye for an eye kind of gal

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Thursday, November 1, 2012 6:01 PM

WISHIMAY


Ok. No one gets me. When I say shit like that it is because I feel it is near impossible for some people to get where a person is coming from without literally walking a mile in their shoes. While an eye for an eye would be a poetic way to get these clueless prigs to learn, I realize it is NOT gonna happen, nor would I make it happen or expect others to make it happen, because it is only slightly less humane then what these asshats are suggesting in the first place.

But it DOES effectively demonstrate my point *sigh. In effect I am saying that I wish as hard as is possible that these idiots could LEARN. Now, could you get over my wording and get my meaning?? Sometimes being graffic is the only way to get people to THINK. Rape IS graffic and horrible in itself. It should make you uncomfortable! I'm not gonna suger-coat rape...

How about walking up to these morons and sticking a sticker on them that says "Congrats, you've just been horribly raped and are going to have to go through nine more months of physical hell and a lifetime of psychological hell on a laymakers say-so- one that is not gonna help you support yourself or the child FOREVER..... just so he can win a few votes or feel superior"


Better?

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Thursday, November 1, 2012 6:20 PM

BYTEMITE


Some people don't learn even after walking a mile in those shoes. Plus the scenario isn't quite the same as the reality faced by women with rape pregnancies. Bad as these people are, I can't wish misfortune on them because simply it won't change anything.

They will not learn. But, that doesn't mean WE can't make choices to their detriment. Like, for example, I think if they don't respect women then they should never in a million years be able to have one on their arm. I suspect that's already th case and in a large part where their crazy is already coming from, and that in itself is a punishment for them. I bet their WIVES don't even touch 'em outside of the public eye. (/mean and nasty grin)

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Friday, November 2, 2012 2:27 PM

WISHIMAY


You'd be suprised what women will touch....

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Monday, November 5, 2012 5:54 AM

BYTEMITE


Those guys? No way. They have sexually frustrated written all over them. Some of them might have had a pre-nup contract with the wives to produce some heirs, but other than that I suspect nothing much is going on.

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