REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

For Your Consideration: Creationism Controversies The Norm Among Potential Republican 2016 Contenders

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Sunday, November 25, 2012 04:31
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2278
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Tuesday, November 20, 2012 12:19 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


IN SUM

Gov. Chris Christie (NJ)
"That's none of your business," Christie said in May 2011 when asked where he comes down on evolution versus creationism.

Gov. Bobby Jindal (LA)
In 2008, Jindal signed into law the "Louisiana Science Education Act," a law that according to the New Orleans Times-Picayune's Annette Sisco, "cleared the way for creationism to be taught in biology class."

Sen. Rand Paul (KY)
Paul demurred on the question of the earth's age back in 2010. Taking questions from a meeting of the Christian Homeschool Educators of Kentucky during his Senate campaign, Paul declined to answer the question "how old is the world?"
"I forgot to say I was only taking easy questions," Paul said. "I'm gonna pass on the age of the earth. I think, ah, I'm just gonna have to pass on that one.

Sen. Marco Rubio (FL)
Then-state House Speaker Rubio was on the side of creationists.

http://news.yahoo.com/creationism-controversies-norm-among-potential-r
epublican-2016-contenders-180354094--politics.html


------------

And that's not counting the yahoos from Kansas, Oklahoma, Georgia, Alabama, etc.

This goes along with the paper which traced tea-baggers back, not to educated libertarians, but to evangelicals. The GOP central committee like Karl Rove cynically thought it was using the evangelicals to get elected. Now it seems that stupid xtians have taken over the party.



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Tuesday, November 20, 2012 12:28 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


It's a sad state of affairs when my reaction to all that was "No surprise there." How far we've fallen as a country when people like this can gain power as our lawmakers.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Tuesday, November 20, 2012 2:52 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


When I vote I don't ask what someone's beliefs about the earth and its age are, or about their other personal beliefs, I ask what are their positions on the issues facing this country and their effect on everyday life. Sometimes people's personal beliefs effect their positions on issues, sometimes they don't, sometimes people can believe similarly to me about personal beliefs but hold opposite or different positions than me on issues.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, November 20, 2012 3:45 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
When I vote I don't ask what someone's beliefs about the earth and its age are, or about their other personal beliefs, I ask what are their positions on the issues facing this country and their effect on everyday life. Sometimes people's personal beliefs effect their positions on issues, sometimes they don't, sometimes people can believe similarly to me about personal beliefs but hold opposite or different positions than me on issues.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya



A question I ask when I vote is whether the candidate is capable of using logic and clear-eyed observations of reality. You know, *reality*. If the last decade has done nothing else, it's shown how important it is for our leaders to recognize and react to REAL events rather than myths.

This is pretty important to me. We had a candidate who was clearly incapable of dealing with "reality." When he was elected I hoped that nothing major would happen while he was in office, and we'd go on with no drastic bumps. That was the year 2000, and guess what all happened to the US before he got the fuck out of office?

Yeah, the last decade has made it really, really clear that reality is kind of important. Thank goodness the voting majority is starting to figure that out.

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Tuesday, November 20, 2012 4:16 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Well, with me it matters naught what one believes, it matters what they DO.
And while I freely admit a certain bias, it isn't their BELIEFS which enrage me, it is their CONDUCT.

Which unfortunately is what leads to those biases, because when all the excuses for that conduct lead right back to the same thing, it reinforces the notion that folks who believe those things are monsters.
Taking into account Siggys notions about the influence of early experience, it's worth a mention here that I was well into my teens before I even realized whatsoever that it was even *possible* for people to be Christian and not vile, malicious, sociopathic hypocrites...

Still not entirely sure about the idea of Christianity *actually* being a humane and compassionate belief, although I will acknowledge that as an outside possibility (and you can thank Anthony for the greater part of that), since if the majority of a practice is carried out a certain way I am of the opinion that such *IS* the nature of the practice.

Ultimately what they believe is irrelevant, but when one has a long history of seeing malicious conduct spring from those beliefs, despite the unfairness of it, I think others might understand that someone in that case would require folks of that belief to "prove out" before trusting them.

And all these jerks have proven to me is that their conduct makes them unfit in any way for public office.

-Frem

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Tuesday, November 20, 2012 6:00 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


A couple of non responses and interpretations of what others THINK that the other 2 potential candidates MAY think on the matter, which itself is irrelevant on the issue of being a candidate for the office of PRESIDENT.

*yawn*


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, November 20, 2012 8:53 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
A couple of non responses and interpretations of what others THINK that the other 2 potential candidates MAY think on the matter, which itself is irrelevant on the issue of being a candidate for the office of PRESIDENT.

*yawn*

Is everybody done buying that this man is an atheist?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 1:53 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
A couple of non responses and interpretations of what others THINK that the other 2 potential candidates MAY think on the matter, which itself is irrelevant on the issue of being a candidate for the office of PRESIDENT.

*yawn*

Is everybody done buying that this man is an atheist?



There's nothing to 'buy' here, because I'm not selling anything. I am what I say I am, like it or not. Your inability to come to grips w/ my views isn't a concern for me. The fact is, how a person feels on the matter of creationism isn't the lynch pin for determining how good an Chief Executive they'll make. Nor is their position on abortion, for that matter. Mindless, pointless window dressing, is how I see those issues.

Personal preference ? Yeah, I'd LIKE for the President to be aware of the true existence of our world, our universe. My guess is, all four at least know that the Apollo astronauts didn't plant a US flag on MARS.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 3:35 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Yeah, I'd LIKE for the President to be aware of the true existence of our world, our universe.



Just like for them to be aware? Such low standards you have. Of course the canidates you like that the party they come from are famous for ignoring evidence and facts.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 4:17 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Yeah, I'd LIKE for the President to be aware of the true existence of our world, our universe.



Just like for them to be aware? Such low standards you have. Of course the canidates you like that the party they come from are famous for ignoring evidence and facts.



It's because such matters aren't germane to their job description. See, unlike you, I am tolerant of other's beliefs. As long as they adhere to the law, and perform their jobs with in the parameters of the Constitution, they can have their own personal beliefs.


And that nonsense you spout about ignoring facts and evidence ? Really applies to the Left, FAR and away more than the Right.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 6:27 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

When I vote I don't ask what someone's beliefs about the earth and its age are, or about their other personal beliefs, I ask what are their positions on the issues facing this country and their effect on everyday life.

But one of the points here is that what these people believe DOES affect their actions as legislators. Was it Murdoch who said the earth was only X number of years old, and that he would use the bible as a "manufacturers' manual" or somesuch? Given he was on the SCIENCE committee in Congress, those beliefs SHOULD worry anyone considering putting him in a position of power to make decisions about laws!

The reality thing is very valid, as far as I'm concerned. Anyone who doesn't have a relatively decent grasp of reality is not someone I want writing the laws by which I have to abide, and I find it amazing that anyone would think otherwise. There should be basic standards by which we judge who we'll vote for, and a recognition that religion shouldn't impact their behavior as our representative is prime among them, for me.

To say it doesn't matter what they believe is, as I see it, to say that it's okay to put someone who staunchly doesn't believe in abortion because of their religion in a position to make laws restricting abortion for others. With that I firmly disagree. Lawmakers will always be influenced by their beliefs, but when they state beliefs which are so far outside reality, I don't want them to have power over my life.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 6:53 AM

JONGSSTRAW


There's no escaping the fact that Republicans have a huge problem with religious and social issues in terms of winning elections. To get back to a playing field that even resembles something competitive there needs to be a purge of all religious dogma from the Party platform. And current religious zealots must be taught, by way of no funding from Republican supporters, or a good old fashioned tied-to-a-tree whipping, to shut their pieholes in public. But the party is in so much chaos and disarray I doubt that even that would make a difference. Until they learn how to deal with minorities and the media there is simply no hope. And candidates with some charisma and salesmanship wouldn't hurt either.

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 7:55 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
It's because such matters aren't germane to their job description. See, unlike you, I am tolerant of other's beliefs. As long as they adhere to the law, and perform their jobs with in the parameters of the Constitution, they can have their own personal beliefs.



It is not about belief. It is about facts and evidence, which should be paramount.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 10:36 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Is everybody done buying that this man is an atheist?


Err, ya really think anyone bought that tripe in the first place?
I mean, from a moron with less credibility than Piratenews, who on rare occasion manages to post something not-batshit-crazy... really ?

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
I'm not selling anything.


Not for lack of tryin, moreso that even your own can tell what you're shovelling.. from upwind.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
To get back to a playing field that even resembles something competitive there needs to be a purge of all religious dogma from the Party platform. And current religious zealots must be taught, by way of no funding from Republican supporters, or a good old fashioned tied-to-a-tree whipping, to shut their pieholes in public.


In the generous spirit of *snicker* bipartisanship, and out of the *giggle* kindness of my heart, I would *chortle* be quite HAPPY to assist with this necessa... oh bloody hell I can't even TYPE that with a straight face!

I got a really nice nylon nine-cat you can borrow, but I worry that some of them supposed moral majority types might like it too much cause we all know what they're really like behind closed doors, neh ?

-Frem

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 10:57 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
A couple of non responses and interpretations of what others THINK that the other 2 potential candidates MAY think on the matter, which itself is irrelevant on the issue of being a candidate for the office of PRESIDENT.

*yawn*

Is everybody done buying that this man is an atheist?



There's nothing to 'buy' here, because I'm not selling anything. I am what I say I am, like it or not. Your inability to come to grips w/ my views isn't a concern for me. The fact is, how a person feels on the matter of creationism isn't the lynch pin for determining how good an Chief Executive they'll make. Nor is their position on abortion, for that matter. Mindless, pointless window dressing, is how I see those issues.

Personal preference ? Yeah, I'd LIKE for the President to be aware of the true existence of our world, our universe. My guess is, all four at least know that the Apollo astronauts didn't plant a US flag on MARS.





...Wait a minute. The suggestion that you think Obama got Mars confused with the Moon aside... You don't want to go to Mars? WHY don't you want to go to Mars? It has water, carbon dioxide, and MINERALS. And it's a quick jump to the asteroid belt (more minerals!) with not too much gravity to worry about. If we start using TIEs and gather the solar wind or lasers or space elevators we also don't have to worry too much about fuel.

I want to colonize Mars and have a space GOLD RUSH. With space forty niners and space brothels, and space really long beards, and space boots, maybe space shootouts and space cattle rustling!

Space. Want to go to space! /space cube

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 11:00 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
To get back to a playing field that even resembles something competitive there needs to be a purge of all religious dogma from the Party platform. And current religious zealots must be taught, by way of no funding from Republican supporters, or a good old fashioned tied-to-a-tree whipping, to shut their pieholes in public.



In the generous spirit of *snicker* bipartisanship, and out of the *giggle* kindness of my heart, I would *chortle* be quite HAPPY to assist with this necessa... oh bloody hell I can't even TYPE that with a straight face!

I got a really nice nylon nine-cat you can borrow, but I worry that some of them supposed moral majority types might like it too much cause we all know what they're really like behind closed doors, neh ?



I calls 'em like I sees 'em.

Several years ago I used to post regularly in a very Conservative closed forum. One day I posted something which "they" determined went against their right wing belief system. They summarily banned me by the end of the day. They said I violated their rules. I couldn't fucking believe it. I could have gotten back in using another computer but I decided not to.

Shortly after that I found this place. And although I detest much of the goings on here, I enjoy nonetheless the occasional moments of enlightenment or hilarity that occur in an un-censored free market of opinions.



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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 11:04 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Err, ya really think anyone bought that tripe in the first place?


Well, kinda of. I always just figured the defense of christian stuff was AURaptor showing solidarity with his otherwise like-thinking tribesmen. His name does not appear to be spelled AURapture - although it would amuse me if someone adopted that as a new nickname. No offense.

Quote:

I got a really nice nylon nine-cat you can borrow


I have been wanting to buy a cat of nine tails. They appear remarkably useful for advancement in the field of self negative reinforcement.

I will name her Sally.

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 2:20 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
It's because such matters aren't germane to their job description. See, unlike you, I am tolerant of other's beliefs. As long as they adhere to the law, and perform their jobs with in the parameters of the Constitution, they can have their own personal beliefs.



It is not about belief. It is about facts and evidence, which should be paramount.



Well, it's about facts and evidence for ME, but then I realize that not everyone sees the world as I see it.


Remember what Book said ? " You don't fix faith. Faith fixes you "

Rubio gave a political answer to a question which really isn't necessary to ask a politician in the first place.

But to the point, Obama gave very much the same answer to a similar question that Rubio gave, yet there was no fits and contortions by the usual suspects.

Quote:



Obama once gave Rubio-like answer on Earth’s age

Campbell Brown: If one of your daughters asked you — and maybe they already have — “Daddy, did god really create the world in 6 days?,” what would you say?

Barack Obama: I’m trying to remember if we’ve had this conversation. What I’ve said to them is that I believe that God created the universe and that the six days in the Bible may not be six days as we understand it — it may not be 24-hour days. And that’s what I believe. I know there’s always a debate between those who read the Bible literally and those who don’t, and that I think is a legitimate debate within the Christian community of which I’m a part. You know, my belief is that the story the Bible tells about God creating this magnificent Earth on which we live, that that is essentially true, that is fundamentally true. Now, whether it happened exactly as we might understand it reading the text of the Bible? That, you know, I don’t presume to know.

http://www.salon.com/2012/11/21/obama_once_gave_rubio_like_answer_on_e
arths_age
/




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 2:33 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

...Wait a minute. The suggestion that you think Obama got Mars confused with the Moon aside



I have no idea what you're talking about here. Sheila Jackson Lee (D - Houston ) in fact DID get Mars confused with our moon. I never claimed it was Obama who was that dense. But on the issue of what our elected officials know, or are aware of, the Mars / Moon fiasco goes down as one of the more tragic examples of idiots in office. And the fact that Ms Jackson-Lee represents HOUSTON,TX, of all places, only adds to the humiliation.


Quote:

... You don't want to go to Mars? WHY don't you want to go to Mars? It has water, carbon dioxide, and MINERALS. And it's a quick jump to the asteroid belt (more minerals!) with not too much gravity to worry about. If we start using TIEs and gather the solar wind or lasers or space elevators we also don't have to worry too much about fuel.


And where do you get the idea that I don't want (man) to go to Mars? I've been one of the more outspoken supporters of going to Mars. Again, you're confused.

Quote:



I want to colonize Mars and have a space GOLD RUSH. With space forty niners and space brothels, and space really long beards, and space boots, maybe space shootouts and space cattle rustling!

Space. Want to go to space! /space cube



Are you following Curiosity on Twitter/ Facebook ? They found 'something', but won't tell us for a few weeks. I'm more than a bit antsy as to what was found.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 2:51 PM

BYTEMITE


Okay, I got confused by what you said.

(Space!)

(Space and Mars)

I hadn't heard anything about Curiosity. I'll keep my eye out.

I am hopeful it did not... kill the cat?

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 7:31 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Are you following Curiosity on Twitter/ Facebook ? They found 'something', but won't tell us for a few weeks. I'm more than a bit antsy as to what was found.



http://www.space.com/18565-mars-rover-curiosity-discovery-mystery.html

All they're saying is that it's something in the soil.

I hope it's not this again.














"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the Republic."

Benjamin Franklin

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 8:08 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Several years ago I used to post regularly in a very Conservative closed forum. One day I posted something which "they" determined went against their right wing belief system. They summarily banned me by the end of the day. They said I violated their rules. I couldn't fucking believe it. I could have gotten back in using another computer but I decided not to.

That happens a lot, alas - there's a very cult-like mentality amongst them, which leads to reason and compassion being drowned out, or as you experienced, drummed out, when it goes against the current party line.

Despite the occasional disagreement I am pretty fond of William Grigg and his work over at the Pro Libertate blog - he too wound up excommunicated from the right, unceremoniously booted from the John Birch Society, which predictably closed ranks and clammed up about it, par for the course.
And for what ?

Because he publicly called Romney on his financial and political connections to the Teen Torture Industry - an issue I remain seriously pissed was never addressed in this election cycle by either side... and when JBS and the rest of the conservative front demanded he spike it, pull it and drop it down the memory hole, instead Grigg took a stand and shouted it from the mountain, no matter how dearly it was to cost him.
http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2007/06/mitt-romney-and-teen-tort
ure-industry.html


To me there's a HUGE difference between mouthing the words, and standing behind ones principles even when they become inconvenient, dangerous or go against the current party line.
S'why I don't really belong to any faction or party - hell, I am all but notorious for even bouncing other Anarchists off the walls over their own hypocrisy and moral myopia!
And yes, I am bloody well aware this comes with it's own unique brand of stupid.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PrinciplesZealot

Quote:

Shortly after that I found this place. And although I detest much of the goings on here, I enjoy nonetheless the occasional moments of enlightenment or hilarity that occur in an un-censored free market of opinions.

Amen to that, and I find it especially appealing when one has to stand behind and effectively argue their case instead of having some biased moderator shut the opposition up.
Frankly I think such is a good thing even for folks I don't agree with, cause it puts them in the position of having to refine and internalize their argument, to examine it critically and discover whether they actually believe in it enough to weather the flames for it, rather than just spout it cause it's the party line without so much as a thought to it.

Of course, this doesn't include those apparently incapable of introspection, but that's irrelevant to the matter at hand.
I would say having to argue and defend ones points, even if alone and unsupported, makes one a damn sight better AT it, it's like making fine steel, first it much be forged and tempered in the fire.

Whether I AGREE or not doesn't matter so much as whether someone has a cogent and honest belief in something strong enough to actually dare argue it on an equal field.

-Frem

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Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:51 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

http://www.space.com/18565-mars-rover-curiosity-discovery-mystery.html

All they're saying is that it's something in the soil.




"One for the record books " isn't really all that shattering. Hell, everything Curiosity sees is 'new' and undiscovered, to some degree. But that it's soil related, and involves retesting, and weeks to verify, or what ever they're actually doing, is one hell of a tease. Curiosity IS on an ancient alluvial fan, which is thought to be the mouth of some flowing water way ( river ). So, there could be all manner of things washed down and settled there. From gold!( think Janye, in The Message ) to ... some sort of indication of life. ( ancient, of course, and it doesn't matter. IF life ever existed there... well, that's worth waiting for. )

I'm gonna temper my expectations, and imagine it to be some sort of geological find, rather than something really exotic. We shall see.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, November 22, 2012 7:13 PM

JONGSSTRAW


If they did find gold, mining operations could be set up by 1.8.49







"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the Republic."

Benjamin Franklin

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Sunday, November 25, 2012 4:31 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Interesting, that , after I gave Obama's reply to a very similar question which was posed to Marco Rubio, there was no direct reply to the original issue of this thread. What followed was silence, in fact.


What was posted were continued discussions on Mars, Curiosity, and whether or not I'm an atheist. Seriously, why would I lie about that ? It makes no sense, to question such a thing, but I guess when you have nothing to reply to on topic, you make up anything to 'counter' what I have to say.



" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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NBC News: Behind the scenes, Biden has grown angry and anxious about re-election effort
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RFK Jr. Destroys His Candidacy With VP Pick?
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Ha. Haha! HAHA! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!
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