REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Guns, Guns, Guns.

POSTED BY: FREMDFIRMA
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 19:40
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Monday, December 17, 2012 3:21 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
BUT THAT ***IS*** HIS ARGUMENT.

His argument IS that people will SAY their intentions are well-meaning when they aren't.

But the situations are not at all equivalent. The 'problem' of voter fraud was non-existent - at best nebulous if you gave EVERY benefit of the doubt.


The problem of gun violence is real. It's obvious. It's brutal. it's heartbreaking. It is a REAL EVIDENT PROBLEM. To treat it like it's JUST LIKE voter fraud is an act of extreme dishonestly, cruelty, insanity. To try to make it an argument is worse.

And he seems to think that we are too stupid and too ignorant to understand the facts. That somehow if he's sly enough, subtle enough, we'll be sucked in to the argument that indeed, gun violence is JUST LIKE voter fraud and therefore the solutions to gun violence are JUST AS BAD as the ones to voter fraud.

Make no mistake - that IS his argument.



Anthony is aware voter fraud is not a real issue. His argument is more about denying the poor the right to vote versus what he sees as an equivalent issue: denying gun owners the right to own guns.

His comments of shock that there isn't voter fraud was intended as a joke. Taking the side of pro-voter ID people was am attempt at highlighting anti gun control arguments.

And votes do kill people, though indirectly. Honestly the better argument was comparing with abortion, as that is more directly about life, death, and choice.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 3:30 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Honestly the better argument was comparing with abortion, as that is more directly about life, death, and choice.


Hello,

I tried that, but apparently some people don't actually want complete control over their own bodies, so the argument had nowhere to go.

Nobody was more surprised than I.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 17, 2012 3:50 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Cav,

No idea why you have taken such umbridge at what I have said. Why you have taken such a combatative stance really suprises and confuses me.

You do know I want our respective countries to be filled with more empathic individuals, that I support parenting, education and institutions which foster empathy. It seems to me that you think I am saying something different that has caused some sort of out of proportion outrage response.




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Monday, December 17, 2012 4:21 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Byte

I got that hours ago. All you're doing is reinforcing in my mind what as asshole he is. He equates the solution to a non-existent problem as being JUST LIKE the solution to a real problem. He's equating the the mendacity of the voter-ID folk with the heartbreak of the parents of those children. He's trivializing the real problem, negating the real grief, invalidating the real people who are living through this. And you think that's OK. That it's just a matter of explaining it, and that will make it good.


They are not the same. They will never be the same. No explanation will make them then same. One is a non-existent problem. The other is a crisis of violence and needless death.

He is an enabler of violence. Frem is an enabler of violence. Geezer is an enabler of violence. Anyone who can observe the situation and want to keep things EXACTLY THE SAME in order to allow EXACTLY THE SAME VIOLENCE is a supporter of violence.

Obviously there is something far more important to them than stooping gun violence and gun death. What that is is personal. They value their personal itches over their personal topics more than they value the life of others. I got that. That is what they are.


As for control over one's body, what AnthonyT doesn't seem to realize is that my freedom ends at his nose - or the nose of someone else. I am fine with the idea of people being able to freely ingest whatever drugs they want. I'm not fine with them getting on the road and killing someone else. I am fine with the idea of abortion. I'm not fine with the idea killing a viable fetus at a whim as an expression of my ability to do whatever I want with my body.

HKC was right so long ago. He pointed out that AnthonyT's absolutism was a psychological problem. I think we're seeing it play out.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 4:29 PM

JONGSSTRAW


"The bigger the gun, the smaller the pecker." .... Sigsauer Freud


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Monday, December 17, 2012 4:34 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Anyone who can observe the situation and want to keep things EXACTLY THE SAME


Hello,

I think this is what they call a straw man. That is, creating an argument that was never made, and pointing it out as rediculous.

I'd like to see a lot of things change. So would Frem.

But I don't see the types of firearms available as the problem that is so desperately in need of change.

Quote:

Obviously there is something far more important to them than stooping gun violence and gun death.


I think you mean stopping gun violence and death.

That's true.

Like creating a society that cares for its people and tries to help them, so that violence and murder are less likely to happen. Period.

Quote:

As for control over one's body, what AnthonyT doesn't seem to realize is that my freedom ends at his nose


Ah, that's precisely where I measure the end of your freedoms. But you want the intrusion to be just a bit further in.

Quote:

He pointed out that AnthonyT's absolutism was a psychological problem. I think we're seeing it play out.


I'm fairly sure we all saw some psychological problems play themselves out this evening. But I don't think the things I consider a problem are the things you consider a problem.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 17, 2012 4:48 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
He is an enabler of violence. Frem is an enabler of violence. Geezer is an enabler of violence. Anyone who can observe the situation and want to keep things EXACTLY THE SAME in order to allow EXACTLY THE SAME VIOLENCE is a supporter of violence.


We don't support violence you moron! Someone seriously needs to kick your ass.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 4:49 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


OOOoohhh look! He's still digging!

BTW, love the edit job and his inability to respond to a complete argument.



ENJOY YOUR NEXT FOUR YEARS!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - HERE'S LAUGHING AT YOU KID!

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Monday, December 17, 2012 4:51 PM

HKCAVALIER


I'm sorry, Magons, I've been trying to make what I'm outraged about clear to you. That you do not identify with what I'm outraged about is excellent news to me. I was trying to make my understanding of what you'd said as clear as I could so you would know what I was upset about. You seemed to not understand my objection so I attempted to clarify. Your last post to me was WTF and I was trying to clarify the W. I am not upset at you.

I am upset about what I see as a societal trance that believes we're essentially violent creatures. That idea makes me plenty angry because my life has been a living example of how a person with an extraordinarily violent upbringing can find the essential goodness in himself and in our species as a whole. I promise you, no one was there to teach me empathy, quite the contrary. Sometimes I really wonder how I was able to find empathy and compassion at all. But I did. So, I can, from time to time, feel obligated to speak my mind on the topic. I don't think my response to that lie about human nature is out of proportion, but I absolutely understand if you didn't understand WTF I was talking about or how I got there from what you said. It happens.

I'm very confused by this whole thread. I have never seen so much talking past one other in a single thread as in this one. I've brought up, jeez, a dozen or more points that, y'know, I thought bear discussion, but I've gotten pretty much zero actual discussion from anyone (Frem and I did accomplished an exchange at one point, but it was quickly lost in the shuffle). I'm not seeing much discussion at all, except between Bytemite and Geezer, really.

At this point I get the feeling that Frem and Anthony are just too scared, really, to allow themselves even to think like the folks they're arguing with. Everyone else in this thread seems to represent a tremendous threat to their well-being. They act as if, and I get the feeling they truly believe that their lives are being threatened by even discussing gun regulation. I mean, if I saw the world as they seem to do, I don't know how I could avoid being very frightened of what folk have been talking about this weekend. It's the 2012 apocalypse for gun ownership!

At the same time, Frem has endorsed such regulation himself, so I dunno. I don't get it.

And the consequence for Anthony of his fear-based argument is that he treats kiki about as poorly as I've seen him treat anyone. It's shocking.

Anthony, that was a serious dick move on your part. Not clever. Not appropriate. To presume that she was too dumb to know exactly what you were doing and to persist in your nasty joke, not cool. And that dig about abortion, coming from my fellow XY, not cool, man! Not remotely. And jeez, it so did not win her over or serve your argument at all, did it? What do you think you're doing? Anthony, you got a style, y'know? And for the most part it works. Charming, funny, enlightening. But when you get into a particularly heated exchange with someone all it sounds like is snide, snide, snide.

So anyway, Magons, I'm sorry I've contributed to any confusion. My intention was to clarify.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 4:53 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
OOOoohhh look! He's still digging!

BTW, love the edit job and his inability to respond to a complete argument.



ENJOY YOUR NEXT FOUR YEARS!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - HERE'S LAUGHING AT YOU KID!



Hello,

Your argument is summed up by the statement:

"Your solution to the problem of gun violence is different than my solution to the problem of gun violence. Hence, you wish to do nothing and are an enabler of violence."

Oh, and also,

"Your perception of freedom is different from my perception of freedom, therefore you have a psychological problem."

With presumably some personal insults thrown in for good measure.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 17, 2012 4:53 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
He is an enabler of violence. Frem is an enabler of violence. Geezer is an enabler of violence. Anyone who can observe the situation and want to keep things EXACTLY THE SAME in order to allow EXACTLY THE SAME VIOLENCE is a supporter of violence.


We don't support violence you moron! Someone seriously needs to kick your ass.



Chris,isall

I get someone who says 'yanno, this is a problem and I would love to do something about it but I have no idea what to do'. They don't condone the system, they understand it's broken, they just don't have a fix for it. But someone who says 'you can't change ANYthing' and ensures that things will stay exactly the same is an enabler. So, which are you? Do you think something needs to change? Or do you want to keep everything exactly the same?

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Monday, December 17, 2012 4:58 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
He's equating the the mendacity of the voter-ID folk with the heartbreak of the parents of those children. He's trivializing the real problem, negating the real grief, invalidating the real people who are living through this. And you think that's OK. That it's just a matter of explaining it, and that will make it good.

You have a point.

Quote:

HKC was right so long ago. He pointed out that AnthonyT's absolutism was a psychological problem. I think we're seeing it play out.
You also have a point here, though I wish it could be expressed with less abusive language toward Anthony. I think his history as a reasonable voice in these parts has earned him that much.

I have the utmost respect for both Anthony and Frem, but in this case I see something coming up short in them. I see the same sort of fear-based almost-psychosis that has been ruling the Conservatives for the past few decades and making any sort of forward progress impossible. Frem hasn't posted as much so here I can't make claims about him, but it seems clear to me that Anthony is terribly afraid of losing his basic rights - which really are in no danger - that any kind of discussion of gun control, much less a *compromise* is impossible.

Perhaps it's because he has never grokked gun "control", rather than gun "ban".

I am a strident supporter of abortion rights. But I recognize that there is a difference between a woman who just discovered she's pregnant but doesn't want to be a mother, and a woman who's just gone into labor and suddenly decided she wants to kill this being that is hours, perhaps minutes from being an independent life form. Limiting a woman's right to destroy a fully formed newborn is not an attack on my right to choose my own destiny after a condom breaks. I understand this. There is a line in between these two extremes which is fuzzy and hard to define, but I am willing to have that conversation.

I can make this separation. Clearly, Anthony can't. I have tried to get him to define the far extremes of "allowable" guns, just to start a discussion, and all I get from him is OMG YOU WANNA TAKE ALL MY WEAPONS YOU'RE BAD! which I cannot see as anything short of a kind of psychosis. His fear of losing his symbol of manhood (and puh-lease don't tell me you haven't heard that analogy, Anthony, or that you haven't looked yourself in the mirror while you're gun stroking to exactly how perfect a penis-stroking metaphor it is) is so severe that he cannot bear any kind of discussion or possibility of compromise. No matter how many innocents die needlessly: it seems to folks like Anthony that we cannot separate limiting nukes from limiting pea shooters. I disagree. One must be limited. One clearly should not.

Where's the line for the fuzzier cases in between? Well, both sides have to be willing to talk or we won't find an appropriate dividing line. That's life. That's how we optimize things.

Anthony is not willing to talk. I find this enlightening, in a sad way, that such an interesting open mind is completely shut regarding this one matter.

No compromise, no discussion, no way. Why is Anthony like this about this topic, and no other? What is it about guns that do this to him? Does nothing else make you feel safe and secure, Anthony? Can you not compromise on things that have no effect on your personal hunting gun collection so that countless others can finally feel, and be, safer?

[Edited for many typos, as usual]

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Monday, December 17, 2012 5:01 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

And the consequence for Anthony of his fear-based argument is that he treats kiki about as poorly as I've seen him treat anyone.


Hello,

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Quote:

It's shocking. Anthony, that was a serious dick move on your part. Not clever. Not appropriate. To presume that she was too dumb to know exactly what you were doing and to persist in your nasty joke, not cool.



I didn't presume anybody was dumb. And it wasn't a 'joke' so much as a way of comparing two situations by placing the other person in my shoes.

Quote:

And that dig about abortion, coming from my fellow XY, not cool, man! Not remotely.


I didn't dig about abortion. I responded to a stance. My ex-wife and I had the ordeal of a late-term abortion, and quite frankly I find her stance on body freedom to be intrusive.

Quote:

And jeez, it so did not win her over or serve your argument at all, did it? What do you think you're doing?


I thought I was helping someone to recognize what I see when someone talks about whittling away my rights with a few common sense restrictions. But no, I don't think any argument of any stripe would win her over. That makes her committed to her positions and it makes me psychologically astray.

Quote:

Anthony, you got a style, y'know? And for the most part it works. Charming, funny, enlightening. But when you get into a particularly heated exchange with someone all it sounds like is snide, snide, snide.


My style is to avoid the kinds of vicious, nasty, personal attacks that other people make when they are angry.

--Anthony




Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 17, 2012 5:02 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
I got that hours ago. All you're doing is reinforcing in my mind what as asshole he is. He equates the solution to a non-existent problem as being JUST LIKE the solution to a real problem. He's equating the the mendacity of the voter-ID folk with the heartbreak of the parents of those children. He's trivializing the real problem, negating the real grief, invalidating the real people who are living through this. And you think that's OK. That it's just a matter of explaining it, and that will make it good.



He's debating. If you would get off that high horse of yours for a damn minute you might get that. Voter ID laws on there surface make all the sense in the world, even with little problem. If everyone could get state IDs at no cost or hardship there would be no argument against ID laws. Yet that point is never argued because somehow the very idea of proving who you are to vote is a big deal. How the hell do we than expect to get gun restrictions past. That is AnthonyT argument as I understand it.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Monday, December 17, 2012 5:06 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
But I don't see the types of firearms available as the problem that is so desperately in need of change.



You're a smart man. How can you not see how an assault rife is more of a problem in these situations than a pistol or a hunting rifle? Assault rifles are designed with killing multiple people in mind. That is there function.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Monday, December 17, 2012 5:07 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
I am upset about what I see as a societal trance that believes we're essentially violent creatures. That idea makes me plenty angry because my life has been a living example of how a person with an extraordinarily violent upbringing can find the essential goodness in himself and in our species as a whole. I promise you, no one was there to teach me empathy, quite the contrary. Sometimes I really wonder how I was able to find empathy and compassion at all. But I did. So, I can, from time to time, feel obligated to speak my mind on the topic. I don't think my response to that lie about human nature is out of proportion, but I absolutely understand if you didn't understand WTF I was talking about or how I got there from what you said. It happens.



Okay, thanks for clarifying.

I didn't mean to imply that we are essentially violent creatures, but that we have the capacity for violence or aggression, if you prefer. ie the 'fight; in fight and flight. We also have the capacity to suspend empathy which we do on a pretty regular basis, when we eat meat, when we step over homeless people etc etc.

I did say I wasn't sure if empathy was learned or not, but I believe it should be fostered in all circumstances. I do think that we will never achieve a society where everyone has the capacity for empathy - signy said it better in an earlier post.

So I do believe we have capacity for both. Both traits make us human. Aggression, while not being pleasant, has its uses. Happy to have this conversation at more length maybe in another thread.

None of this means I am just shrugging my shoulders re the human race to say we are hopeless, violent maniacs. I don't believe that. If anything, we're not the least empathic that we have ever been. There have been times when public executions, torture etc were considered fun entertainment. But I don't think we're heading in a direction that will make anything better for a long time

Anyway respond more when I have more time.


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Monday, December 17, 2012 5:12 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

I have tried to get him to define the far extremes of "allowable" guns, just to start a discussion, and all I get from him is OMG YOU WANNA TAKE ALL MY WEAPONS YOU'RE BAD! which I cannot see as anything short of a kind of psychosis.


Hello,

By and large, my weapons aren't really at issue in gun control debates. Most particularly my favored guns aren't usually at issue. Jong made some odd statements in another thread about locking gun ownership at the technology level of the 1870's. This would actually leave the majority of my arsenal and all of my favored guns intact. There is no serious gun control proposal on the table currently that would take my guns away.

Quote:

His fear of losing his symbol of manhood (and puh-lease don't tell me you haven't heard that analogy, Anthony, or that you haven't looked yourself in the mirror while you're gun stroking to exactly how perfect a penis-stroking metaphor it is)


I hear this metaphor a lot, actually. Which is really just a way of belittling someone's position. No, I haven't looked at myself in the mirror while gun-stroking in a perfect penis-stroking metaphor. This is something that happens inside of other people's minds.

Quote:


is so severe that he cannot bear any kind of discussion or possibility of compromise.



I actually can discuss this subject at length, for days on end, and without hurling insults at people.

Quote:


No matter how many innocents die needlessly: we cannot separate limiting nukes from limiting pea shooters. One is absolutely necessary. One is not.



Actually, I can separate limiting nukes from limiting pea shooters.

Quote:


Where's the line? Well, both sides have to be willing to talk or we won't find an appropriate dividing line.



I have been consistently willing to talk about this.

Quote:

Anthony is not willing to talk. I find this enlightening, in a sad way, that such an interesting open mind is completely shut regarding this one matter.


I have been consistently willing to talk about this.

Quote:


No compromise, no discussion, no way.



I have often proposed compromises. I don't remember many coming my way.

Quote:


Why is Anthony like this about this topic, and no other?



Because you don't notice when I stringently defend the freedoms that are agreed upon. Only the disagreements catch your memory and imagination.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 17, 2012 5:16 PM

BYTEMITE


Hmm. It seemed like... But okay, perhaps I misunderstood *you*.

Mal4Prez has a point, and I should apologize to you. You didn't need an explanation.

I don't know anything about guns, so I don't know what to do about them. I am as useful in a conversation about guns as I am useful in a conversation about economics. All I know about guns is whatever I might have heard second hand for research for writing.

That's why I've been "moderating," because I don't have anything else to contribute to the thread.

I think I'm more snide than Anthony when I'm annoyed.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 5:27 PM

MAL4PREZ


All right Anthony, setting aside the gun-as-manhood thing, (which I guess isn't evident unless you're a non-gun person coming across the gun measuring and comparing threads that crop up here time to time), let's talk limits.

I will make two lists: those I see as fully, obviously allowed, and those I don't. I ask you to please understand that I am not a gun expert and will not understand fine differences. I talk generalities.

Obviously allowed: (Keep in mind - this is MINIMAL in my mind. Allowable may go far past this. This is just the obviously a basic right stuff) hunting rifles that are not automatic and must be manually reloaded after two shots. Handguns that are easily concealable in purse or belt that carry 5-6 small caliber bullets, for self-defense.

Obviously not allowed: any fully automatic weapon, any weapon that fires more than 10 bullets in a short amount of time with a short reload time (short meaning that a schoolroom full of 6 year old would have 0% chance of fleeing before the reload was done.) Uzis, rocket launchers. Not OK.

I realize that there is a whole range of semi-automatics between these extremes that would take a great deal of discussions by more knowledgeable minds than mine to decide where the line should be drawn.

There, I have defined my "Oh shit, there are two lines on the pee stick" and "my water's just broken" extremes. Lots of room is left wide open in between.

What are your extremes? And again, for the love of TPTB, please do not go into the loving details of your personal favorites. What do you think is OBVIOUSLY a gun everyone should have a right to, and what it not?

If you keep it simple, I will try to educate myself about what exactly these guns are. I wouldn't mind learning.

BTW, I fired off the Terminator package at the gun store in Veges. Uzi and pump action and laser guided and such. It was awesome. But I would never, ever, want those guns in my hands or anyone else's outside that well-monitored environment.

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Monday, December 17, 2012 5:34 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"He's debating."

No, he's not. He's setting up a false equivalency as a premise. It's a non-starter.

"Voter ID laws on there surface make all the sense in the world, even with little problem."

Voter ID laws make very little sense. They are a 'solution' to a non-existent 'problem'. Anyone who promotes them as such a 'solution' is starting from a false position.

"If everyone could get state IDs at no cost or hardship there would be no argument against ID laws."

But cost and hardships are the biggest arguments against them. IN ADDITION, many people have no birth certificates. A significant number of births occur at home, especially in the past, especially in rural areas, especially in the south, especially among blacks. I recently finished a book 'The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks' which, while not about birth certificates, outlined enough of the daily life and family life of poor blacks in the south that I can see the lack of a birth certificate could be a common and insurmountable problem. So insisting on an ID based on a birth certificate is not as reasonable and benign as you might think it is.

"Yet that point is never argued because somehow the very idea of proving who you are to vote is a big deal."

That was never MY objection or the objections I've heard. Honestly that sounds a lot more like the right-wing 'permanent ID' objection that anything else. My objections AND the objections I've read have all to do with the fact that the process was meant to disenfranchise specific groups of voters by setting up obstacles to voting.

"That is AnthonyT argument as I understand it."

Then it's an easily disproved one.


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Monday, December 17, 2012 5:48 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:


You're a smart man. How can you not see how an assault rife is more of a problem in these situations than a pistol or a hunting rifle? Assault rifles are designed with killing multiple people in mind. That is there function.



Hello,

I wanted to address this first, because I hear the word assault rifle a lot.

I will respond to your other message presently.

I can see that an assault rifle would be more of a problem in these situations if they were used in these situations. However, assault rifles currently have restrictions that make them both difficult and time consuming to obtain while being cost prohibitive.

I think this is why legal assault rifles and other legal fully automatic weapons are rarely used in crime. As for the illegal ones, I'm not sure what reasonable steps can be taken against them. They are already illegal.

--Anthony





Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 17, 2012 6:07 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:


All right Anthony, setting aside the gun-as-manhood thing, (which I guess isn't evident unless you're a non-gun person coming across the gun measuring and comparing threads that crop up here time to time)



Hello,

I am left to wonder why two girls can talk about their favorite things, even compare and contrast them, without being accused of using these things as vagina stand-ins or masturbatory symbols. I'm sure such a statement would be vulgar and inappropriate to a woman. I'm not sure why it's deemed appropriate to say such a thing to a man.

Quote:

let's talk limits.


I will speak to you of limits, but understand that I do not consider the types of firearms available to be the principle problem when confronting the issue of madness and mass murder. I consider it, in fact, to detract from the point and take away from solving the actual problem.

Quote:

Obviously allowed: rifles that are not automatic and must be manually reloaded after two shots. Handguns that are easily concealable in purse or belt that carry 5-6 small caliber bullets, for self-defense.


I would be interested in hearing your reasoning for these obviously allowed items. Your emphasis on conceal-ability and caliber is interesting to me. I believe I understand why you wish to limit magazine size.

Quote:

Obviously not allowed: any fully automatic weapon, any weapon that fires more than 10 bullets in a short amount of time with a short reload time (short meaning that a schoolroom full of 6 year old would have 0% chance of fleeing before the reload was done.) Uzis, rocket launchers. Not OK.


In your desire to disallow fully automatic weapons, I see a callback to the assault rifle thing from before. Having desired to disallow fully automatic weapons, I'm curious about the inclusion of Uzis. What about a semiautomatic Uzi with a 10 round magazine?

Military rocket launchers are virtually impossible to obtain currently. But for the sake of argument, I'm not particularly comfortable with these things in private ownership, either. I do think civilians should be able to build and buy hobbyist rockets, however.

I am pretty uncomfortable with fully automatic weapons, but since legal versions of this weapon are so rarely used in crime, I feel this may be a case of banning something without any actual cause to do so. Why infringe on someone without cause?

Quote:

What are your extremes? And again, for the love of TPTB, please do not go into the loving details of your personal favorites. What do you think is OBVIOUSLY a gun everyone should have a right to, and what it not?


I think that civilians should obviously be entitled to purchase non-automatic slugthrowers of less than cannon caliber. (Say 20mm, except with certain shotguns and antique styled arquebusses and blunderbusses, which may have wide gauges.)

As an aside, I'd be willing to completely outlaw magazines exceeding 10 rounds and also fully automatic weapons if the constabulary were similarly limited.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 17, 2012 6:26 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I will speak to you of limits, but understand that I do not consider the types of firearms available to be the principle problem when confronting the issue of madness and mass murder. I consider it, in fact, to detract from the point and take away from solving the actual problem.
You've taken a big step onto illogic. If frem and geezer follow your logic (haven't checked back into the thread yet to find out) they've followed the same Wile E Coyote step.

Let's start with: I agree with you. The type of firearm available isn't the principle problem when confronting the issue of madness. (mass murder is another problem.) What does the "type of firearm available" do?? It allows a single person (sane or not) a more or less efficient force multiplier with which to impose his or her will.... or insanity... on a larger group of others.

What I find inexplicably strange is that two of three people who both claim that violence isn't "the answer" appeal to violence as "the solution". How do you explain that? Either you think non-violence works to achieve the world you want, or you don't. If violence works, then is it also not an equivalent problem?

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Monday, December 17, 2012 6:36 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Let's start with: I agree with you. The type of firearm available isn't the principle problem when confronting the issue of madness and mass murder.


Hello,

I'm glad we agree on this much.

Quote:

It allows a single person (sane or not) a more or less efficient force multiplier with which to impose his or her will.... or insanity... on a larger group of others.


Is this the actual concern, and the reason for the desire to limit magazine size? I have seen the desire to limit magazine size frequently mentioned in these sorts of conversations. I feel that it is being suggested that it's simply not safe to give human beings too much ability to mow down their fellow man. Perhaps even a seemingly sane person might misuse the ability. Or perhaps a legitimately sane person might have his immense firepower appropriated by a criminal or maniac.

Is this the actual concern? Please tell me if this is so, because it seems like it might be a legitimate concern if true.

Quote:

What I find inexplicably strange is that two of three people who both claim that violence isn't "the answer" appeal to violence as "the solution". How do you explain that?


Violence is the last tool in the toolbox of a man who has completely run out of better ideas. That does happen from time to time. It's not 'THE solution' or even 'the PREFERRED solution' but rather 'the last option.'

I do think it's an option that should be available to be employed as a last resort. Unlike some people, you won't find me grinning about the prospect.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 12:02 AM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


Quote:


Maybe if she had military training and hardware.


You haven't been keeping up with the state of the art.

1,000 yards sounds crazy to me too. But it's actually nothing special these days with a good quality rifle and scope. And next month anybody with 20 grand and a hankerin for the latest gizmoz who haz never fired a gun in their life will be able to hit the bullz eye at that distance on their 1st shot.

http://www.gizmag.com/trackingpoint-precision-guided-firearms-scopes-d
igital/25264/?utm_source=Gizmag+Subscribers&utm_campaign=6ef65f1da8-UA-2235360-4&utm_medium=email



----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 12:21 AM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


Anybody want to help?

http://wh.gov/nlxi

Its just a petition, so likely to get nowhere, but it's just a couple uv clicks.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 2:56 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I wanted to address this first, because I hear the word assault rifle a lot.

I will respond to your other message presently.

I can see that an assault rifle would be more of a problem in these situations if they were used in these situations. However, assault rifles currently have restrictions that make them both difficult and time consuming to obtain while being cost prohibitive.

I think this is why legal assault rifles and other legal fully automatic weapons are rarely used in crime. As for the illegal ones, I'm not sure what reasonable steps can be taken against them. They are already illegal.

--Anthony



The assault weapons ban expired in 2004 and has not been renewed. Now there is still a ban on fully automatic weapons, but that is not an issue.

Unlike the movies full auto setting on weapons was never meant to gun down swarms of people but to put rounds down range to suppress enemy movements. Accuracy goes to hell in full auto. The newer versions of the M-14 no longer even have a full auto setting for this reason.

When I'm talking about assault rifles in this case I'm taking about guns like the AR-15. They are designed for combat and are very efficient weapons for killing multiple people.

Now I understand that other weapons could be used, and that gun control is only a piece of the puzzle. Mental health problems and the failure to our health care system to deal with them are a huge part. Also the fact that ammo is not restricted more.


I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 3:15 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:


When I'm talking about assault rifles in this case I'm taking about guns like the AR-15. They are designed for combat and are very efficient weapons for killing multiple people.



Hello,

Assault Rifles have, at the minimum, a burst fire mode which qualifies them as fully automatic weapons under Federal law. Assault weapons were never banned by the assault weapons ban. Instead we have:

Quote:

When I'm talking about assault rifles in this case I'm taking about guns like the AR-15. They are designed for combat and are very efficient weapons for killing multiple people.



There is nothing magical about an AR-15. It is functionally identical to any semiautomatic rifle. So I am left to conclude that your issue is either with A) appearance, B) magazine capacity, or C) the semiautomatic action itself.

Which is it?

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:04 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I continue to have misgivings, Geezer. Although perhaps some of your ideas are salvageable in regards to addressing the problem. Just not the forced confinement and treatment thing. Did you watch Dollhouse? See Sierra's backstory? Bad enough as the system currently is without giving MORE power for that.



I am wide open for suggestions as to how to do something, in a responsible manner, about getting potentially dangerous folks into treatment voluntarily.

Unfortunately, until the mental health system can be changed, we have to deal with what we got. It's pretty obvious that there are folks who are too dangerous, to themselves and others, to be left without care. Letting them go until they harm others isn't a very good solution. Neither is confiscating the property of millions of folks who've broken no laws, and are extremely unlikely to ever do so.

So to me the treatment option, even if sometimes involuntary, seems a less bad solution.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:26 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
You've taken a big step onto illogic. If frem and geezer follow your logic (haven't checked back into the thread yet to find out) they've followed the same Wile E Coyote step.

Let's start with: I agree with you. The type of firearm available isn't the principle problem when confronting the issue of madness. (mass murder is another problem.) What does the "type of firearm available" do?? It allows a single person (sane or not) a more or less efficient force multiplier with which to impose his or her will.... or insanity... on a larger group of others.



Don't know about Frem and Anthony, but my general point has been that maybe we'd be better off trying to deal with madness and insanity rather than their tools. Some of my comments have been what I thought were obviously hyperbole, to match some of the more empassioned ones I've seen, but apparently I forgot the [hyperbole][/hyperbole] UBB codes.

I'm still trying to get someone to talk about treating the people, rather than the tools, as a solution, but I'm afraid the "blame the guns" dogma is far too entrenched.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:41 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

And next month anybody with 20 grand and a hankerin for the latest gizmoz who haz never fired a gun in their life will be able to hit the bullz eye at that distance on their 1st shot.


fàng pì. That's like that argument that video games are turning kids into killers. No matter how much you see guns used on television or how detailed the Call of Duty games get, most people who've never fired a gun are unaware of a number of things they have to compensate for - many of 'em will have a hard time even finding the safety unless they actually HAD prior experience with a gun.

And even if your example about hitting one big guy at 1000 yards first time shooting a gun with anything but hard to obtain exorbitantly expensive or military gear were possible... even if a first timer got one shot off - ONE - that made the target... all forty nine other people would scatter and you'd be hard pressed to find a first time shooter who can accurately hit moving targets even with a scope. And that's considering they'd have to aim each time because they wouldn't yet know how to compensate for the kick back to line up a shot one after the other.

In short, no way, no matter what some high fallutin' businessman looking for a buck tries to flimflam you with.

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 4:55 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I suspect the fellow attributes nearly supernatural qualities to the technology, not realizing that even very sophisticated technology benefits from a person well skilled in its use.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 8:32 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:

So to me the treatment option, even if sometimes involuntary, seems a less bad solution.


Ask everyone to laugh hysterically while maintaining a straight face. Insane people cannot do this at will. The people who aren't insane but cannot do it would be easily identified with a few questions.

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 9:26 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
There is nothing magical about an AR-15. It is functionally identical to any semiautomatic rifle. So I am left to conclude that your issue is either with A) appearance, B) magazine capacity, or C) the semiautomatic action itself.

Which is it?



Saying an AR-15 is functionally identical to any semiautomatic rifle is like saying a .50 caliber bold actions sniper rifle is the functionally identical to a .22 bolt action.

The overall design, with would include its magazine capacity, of an AR-15 or a semi-auto AK is to make it better in combat. They are light weight, low recoil, compact design weapons that have quickly targeting multiple individuals in mind. There is a reason that militaries use rifles with these design feathers in combat.

It does not take much to see the difference in these two weapons...


I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 9:53 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

This is a Ruger Mini-14, caliber .223. It is a popular hunting and sports
rifle. It has a 5 round magazine and a wooden stock:




********************
********************

This is a Ruger Mini-14, caliber .223. It is a popular hunting and sports
rifle. It has a 5 round magazine and a synthetic stock. This one is shown
with attachable scope rings so that the hunter or sportsman can employ a
telescopic sight.




********************
********************

This is a Ruger Mini-14, caliber .223. It is a popular hunting and sports
rifle. It has a 20-30 round magazine, wooden stock, and telescopic
sight. It has a flash suppressor.




********************
********************

This is a Ruger Mini-14, caliber .223. It is a popular hunting and sports
rifle. It has a 20 round magazine and a synthetic folding stock.




********************
********************

This is a Ruger Mini-14, caliber .223. It is a popular hunting and sports
rifle. It has a 100 round drum magazine.

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4603737628672978&pid=1.7



You may notice that all of these examples start with the words, "This is a
Ruger Mini-14."

A semiautomatic hunting and sports rifle reconfigured by various owners.

In practice, matches every capability of an AR-15 rifle. (Possibly more
reliable, depending on who you ask.)

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 10:01 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Okay, and....

Do you need a 20 round mag for hunting, no. You also don't need it for home protection. You also don't need a folding stock or a pistol grip to hunt. The exceptions might be for someone that is disabled a pistal grip might be needed.

See all that can go into regulations very easily.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 10:11 AM

CHRISISALL


This is a real gun....


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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 10:21 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important




Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Okay, and....

Do you need a 20 round mag for hunting, no. You also don't need it for home protection. You also don't need a folding stock or a pistol grip to hunt. The exceptions might be for someone that is disabled a pistal grip might be needed.

See all that can go into regulations very easily.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359]

Hello,

All of that DID go into regulations. The Assault Weapons ban, as previously mentioned, did not ban assault weapons. It regulated magazine size, style of stock, and attached accessories. It also banned some weapons that had a scary appearance or bad reputation, but which would not otherwise have been prohibited. Not being a retroactive ban, it didn't actually remove any of this stuff from circulation. It simply prevented additional such items from being manufactured or imported.

So, we're not talking about assault weapons. We are talking about banning various attachments and options on regular semiautomatic rifles.

So far, you list:

A) Banning pistol grips, which make shooting much more comfortable.
B) Banning folding stocks, which make rifles easier to stow.
C) Banning large magazines. (Shall we say a 10 bullet limit?)

Presumably you do not intend to outlaw semiautomatic weapons outright.

Are your new regulations proposed to be retroactive or will existing articles be grandfathered in?

Do you imagine any exceptions for Americans who can prove that they have completed a proficiency and safety course related to the weapons, or do you see such weapons as unnecessary, period?

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 10:22 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
This is a real gun....

]

Hello,

One of my favorite fantasy weapons from sci-fi. :-)

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 10:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Wow. I go away for a day and look what happens! I, too, see a whole lot of talking past one another and of getting sidetracked, and misunderstanding, and taking things wrongly, etc., etc. It's sad this has devolved into something which has caused such animosity between people who normally like one another. Not too surprising, I guess, given the entire nation has been hit hard by Sandy Hook, while the gun lovers are afraid of what the result might be. By the way, gun purchases have spiked massively since Friday, and sales of the gun the shooter used are through the roof--to the point where many gun shops can't keep them in stock. Of course, Walmart hasn't yet run out...still shocks me that GUNS are sold at Walmart!

So I'm catching up, waaaaay into the discussion. Bear with me

I was going to clarify that Anthony's statement about voting laws, as I saw it, was a way of saying "THEY SAID it wasn't disenfranchising anyone"--his way of comparing it to gun laws and saying "THEY SAY they won't take away our guns". But Kiki's remarks brought me up short: Yes, there IS no comparison. The idea that anyone SAYS they won't do this or that, then they do it, is somewhat of a valid point. But comparing voter ID laws to gun restrictions is a totally false comparison, I agree.
Quote:

He's setting up a false equivalency as a premise. It's a non-starter.

Exactly.

Mal4 has stated the same thing I've been trying to say all along:
Quote:

it seems clear to me that Anthony is terribly afraid of losing his basic rights - which really are in no danger - that any kind of discussion of gun control, much less a *compromise* is impossible.

I would remove the word "basic", myself; it has seemed to me many times that Anthony fears losing ANY of his "rights", even the tiniest one, and that any discussion of restriction of rights takes him immediately to a "10", and he will find reasons, rationalizations, comparisons forever to keep making the same point over and over: "Nobody should be allowed to take away ANY of my rights." I understand some of this comes from his background, but the absolutism defeated me long ago, and I think any effort to get through to him on such things is doomed to failure. He will argue forever. He has said in the past, if anyone remember, that he thinks citizens should have the rights to tanks, and about anything else--tho' here he seems to have modified that stance. The ONLY point I've seen him willing to give on is that he's willing to have his gun ownership restricted--to exactly the same as the police's rights are restricted. That's another discussion I won't get into. I'm surprised to see you agree to outlaw magazines exceeding 10 rounds, Anthony; I may be mistaken in that it wasn't you but was others here who felt otherwise and debated the usefulness of high-quantity clips/magazines/whatever.

That Anthony believed his comparison was valid:
Quote:

it wasn't a 'joke' so much as a way of comparing two situations by placing the other person in my shoes.

should be telling. There is no such comparison. I don't know why he can't see that, but all I can figure is it comes back to the same thing:
Quote:

what I see when someone talks about whittling away my rights with a few common sense restrictions.

Voting RIGHTS equate to gun RIGHTS to him. It's about rights; he can't see beyond that and he can't see the horrible LACK of comparison.

The statement
Quote:

assault rifles currently have restrictions that make them both difficult and time consuming to obtain while being cost prohibitive.

causes me to ask: What do you mean by "assault rifle"? That's what many call the AR-15 used in Sandy Hook, as well as the movie-theater shooting, and is what I believe most people consider an "assault rifle". Maybe that term isn't accurate, but that's the public perception. THAT gun is easily acquired and has no restrictions, and is currently selling through the roof. It is"The Number One Selling Rifle In The U-S" ( http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/jul/26/ar-15-number-one-selling-rifle-u
-s-ar-4215646/
]) I believe that is what Mal4 was referring to.
Quote:

They are light weight, low recoil, compact design weapons that have quickly targeting multiple individuals in mind.

I agree with Nick; I was listening to a gun expert talking about the AR-15 and he highlighted just those points, that it's built to have little recoil and to make targeting especially easy. So when it comes to the AR-15, they're not "supernatural qualities", but it is built to make shooting accuracy very easy for the unskilled.
Quote:

even very sophisticated technology benefits from a person well skilled in its use.

Of course it does; but that doesn't mean an UNSKILLED person can't benefit from the way the AR-15 is built.
Quote:

I do not consider the types of firearms available to be the principle problem

I don't think anyone has claimed it was the "principle problem", have they? There are many things which come to bear where Sandy Hook, and all the others, are concerned. There seems to be some agreement among pundits and politicians I'm hearing that mental illness and how we deal with it is part of the problem, and guns are another part. There they diverge, with some citing violence in the entertainment industry, some looking to bullying, and so forth. But the two things people seem to be highlighting are mental illness and guns. My questions would be:

Tho' it may not be the principle problem, does that mean we should ignore it? and
What do YOU consider the principle problem to be?

I happen to agree with Geezer's comments about the mental-health system. What's ironic is that many of us have been saying this for decades, while FUNDING for mental-health services has been cut over and over by the right; suddenly now everyone's interested. BUT I would also say to Geezer, with regard to
Quote:

my general point has been that maybe we'd be better off trying to deal with madness and insanity rather than their tools

Why can't we do both? It's not "blame the guns" dogma; as I said, currently the talk by virtually everyone from the President to the pundits (except the silence from the right) HAS been about dealing both with mental illness AND guns.

I believe Anthony is more absolute in his stance than even the majority of NRA members:
Quote:

Even the rank and file membership of the National Rifle Association want improvements when it comes to many of the most pressing gun safety issues. The numbers (read on) are unequivocal. They want what their leadership does not, and by huge margins. The con-men and scam-artists who run the NRA, on the other hand, as usual, are absolutely bloody wrong.

If we could reform gun safety laws just enough in this country to meet the wishes of the vast majority of the NRA membership, we would be leaps and bounds beyond the deadly political quagmire we have been languishing in as a nation --- thanks to the liars and profiteers of the NRA leadership and the cowardly politicians afraid to take them on

The NRA's loudest and most dishonest voice is its Executive VP and chief political strategist Wayne LaPierre. He is opposed to any and all legislation that might stand a chance of making Americans safer, claiming a twisted and tortured view of the Bill of Right's 2nd Amendment as a prohibition against any and all such legislation...
He, and the NRA leadership, have long opposed common sense laws designed, for example, to keep those on the so-called "Terrorist Watch List" from being able to easily purchase combat-style weapons, laws designed to make it harder for people like the mass shooters in Aurora, CO and Newtown, CT from obtaining high-capacity magazines used to kill dozens of people in a matter of seconds, and laws which would require that those buying weaponry from private sellers at gun shows face the same background checks as those who purchase them at licensed gun dealerships.

Those are all laws supported by an overwhelming majority of NRA members and non-NRA gun owners alike. Unlike the leadership, the vast majority of NRA members join the rest of us in the Reality-Based World in favoring many common sense gun safety regulations.

It's not even close, by the way. NRA membership supports many of the policies their leadership strictly opposes by huge margins. Take a look at some of the following numbers from a recent poll of gun owners [PDF] --- both NRA members and non-NRA members --- as commissioned by Mayors Against Illegal Guns and carried out last July by Frank Luntz' Rightwing polling firm (yes, that Frank Luntz of Fox 'News')...

• 74 percent of NRA members and 87 percent of non-NRA gun owners support requiring criminal background checks of anyone purchasing a gun.

• 79 percent of NRA members and 80 percent of non-NRA gun owners support requiring gun retailers to perform background checks on all employees - a measure recently endorsed by the National Shooting Sports Foundation, the trade association for the firearms industry.

• 75 percent of NRA members believe concealed carry permits should only be granted to applicants who have not committed any violent misdemeanors, including assault.

• 74 percent of NRA members believe permits should only be granted to applicants who have completed gun safety training.

• 68 percent of NRA members believe permits should only be granted to applicants who do not have prior arrests for domestic violence.

• 63 percent of NRA members believe permits should only be granted to applicants 21 years of age or older.

• The NRA rank and file also supports barring people on terror watch lists from buying guns (71 percent) and believe the law should require gun owners to alert police to lost and stolen guns (64 percent). The NRA's Washington office strongly opposes both measures.More at http://www.bradblog.com/?p=9786


(emphasis in original) The author is pretty obviously extremely biased, but the facts and figures are correct. Out of curiosity, I would like Anthony to tell us his stance on each of those issues. I would bet dollars to donuts that he is against any and every one of them, tho' I could be wrong. I'd like to hope I am.

I would also like a list from Anthony as to what he would consider acceptable and not acceptable.

My point is, it's probably possible for all of us here to have a rational discussion about gun restrictions, but if we engage Anthony (or possibly even Frem) in the discussion, it will make it impossible, because people will be sidetracked into trying to reason with him/them, and there goes the discussion. I love both Frem and Anthony dearly, it should be said, and respect them both highly...except Anthony when it comes to this one issue: Not just guns, but his adamant, unrelenting belief about his rights NEVER being restricted. It shows itself most strongly when it comes to guns perhaps--tho' I remember a discussion about whether protesters have the right to impede traffic getting almost as heated. But it's just not possible, I've long known that and rarely try to converse with him when it comes to these things. It's not about his manhood, Mal4, it's about his rights. That's what it always comes down to.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 11:00 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
This is a real gun....






“Obviously the amend does not apply to arms that cannot be carried — it’s to “keep and bear,” so it doesn’t apply to cannons, but I suppose there are handheld rocket launchers that can bring down airplanes that will have to — it’ll have to be decided.” - USSC Justice Antone Scalia.

`

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 11:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well, while I was typing all that, I see the thread has moved on. As to the currently-proposed gun bill by Feinstein, it would do the following:
Quote:

“It [the bill] will ban the sale, the transfer, the transportation and the possession [of assault weapons],” the California senator said on NBC’s “Meet the Press.” “Not retroactively, but prospectively. And it will ban the same for big clips, drums or strips of more than 10 bullets.”

also
Quote:

We exempt over 900 specific weapons that will not fall under the bill.


That's from Feinstein herself, while of course gun advocates are saying things like
Quote:

This same “pretty good intelligence” says the items that would lead to a ban would ban pistol grips and “high-capacity” magazines, eliminate any grandfathering and ban sales of “weapons in possession”. The law “would essentially ban thousands of firearms and require gun owners to turn them over to the Federal government".

That's bullshit, as is obvious from Feinstein's statement. But you'll be hearing stuff like that in coming weeks.

And, of course, from the right:
Quote:

On Fox News Sunday, Rep. Louis Golmert proposed giving teachers assault weapons.... Chris, I wish to God she had had an M-4 in her office, locked up so when she heard gunfire, she pulls it out and she didn’t have to lunge heroically with nothing in her hands and takes him out and takes his head off before he can kill those precious kids.” http://www.politicususa.com/senate-democrats-seek-gun-control-bill-hou
se-gop-give-teachers-assault-weapons.html



Which assault weapons the bill would ban hasn't yet been specified, and there are other bills aside from Feinstein's, one of which bans just the high-quantity clips. Personally, I would also like to see the loophole closed on gun-show sales not needing background checks, as well as better enforcement of existing laws. That's where I stand.

Whether anything can or will be done...well, I'm holding my breath.

ETA: To answer Anthony's question
Quote:

A) appearance, B) magazine capacity, or C) the semiautomatic action itself.

I object to the magazine capacity and the semi-automatic action. And I disagree with your statement that the AR-15 is like any other semi-automatic, as explained in my previous post. It is designed specifically to attract people who want something easy to handle and especially easy to be accurate with, according to the professional I heard...if it is "essentially the same", why is it the number one selling rifle in the country?

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 11:24 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I've spent a lot of time here trying to have this discussion while being told that it's impossible to have this discussion with me. It's rather frustrating. I am currently in the process of finding out what restrictions are proposed and why, to see where I can find common ground.

In that interest, I will comment on the bullets Niki has posted.

Quote:

• 74 percent of NRA members and 87 percent of non-NRA gun owners support requiring criminal background checks of anyone purchasing a gun.


I am in favor of this, in regards to searching for felony convictions.

Quote:

• 79 percent of NRA members and 80 percent of non-NRA gun owners support requiring gun retailers to perform background checks on all employees - a measure recently endorsed by the National Shooting Sports Foundation, the trade association for the firearms industry.


I am in favor of this only when talking about employees whose job it is to handle the firearms. There are many stores that sell a variety of products, and I think it's okay to hire an ex-criminal to collect shopping carts from the parking lot, ring up slacks, or bag groceries.

Quote:

• 75 percent of NRA members believe concealed carry permits should only be granted to applicants who have not committed any violent misdemeanors, including assault.


I am not in favor of this. Misdeamanors are by their nature minor trespasses against others. One could find oneself charged with misdeameanor assault in a variety of circumstances that do not actually indicate a violent or unstable personality.


Quote:

• 74 percent of NRA members believe permits should only be granted to applicants who have completed gun safety training.


Is this about concealed weapons permits? This was actually already the case when I acquired my concealed weapons permit in Florida. However, I don't think that concealing a weapon or not concealing a weapon is a particularly significant distinction in terms of public safety. I guess I don't approve of this one. It would be wiser to have people complete a gun safety course before buying a gun. (Under the caveat that the course is not designed to deny gun rights, but rather to help ensure they are used responsibly.)

Quote:


• 68 percent of NRA members believe permits should only be granted to applicants who do not have prior arrests for domestic violence.



Is this still with the concealed weapons permit? I don't want anyone convicted of domestic violence to have a gun. I don't care if they have a concealed weapons permit.

Quote:

• 63 percent of NRA members believe permits should only be granted to applicants 21 years of age or older.


This is fine by me. Probably we should also change military recruitment age to 21.

Quote:

• The NRA rank and file also supports barring people on terror watch lists from buying guns (71 percent)


Only if there is an easily accessible review process for getting off the list. I've heard all kinds of nonsense regarding this list. I want there to be some burden of evidence for people to be put on the list and some way for people to challenge the ruling and get a timely and fair review.

Quote:


and believe the law should require gun owners to alert police to lost and stolen guns (64 percent).



With the caveat that the owner knows the weapon has been lost or stolen.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 11:40 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Why would you not be in favor of anyone wanting to buy a gun having to take a saftey course?

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 11:44 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Why would you not be in favor of anyone wanting to buy a gun having to take a saftey course?


Hello,

Sometimes I feel you are not reading what I write.

Was I unclear?

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 12:03 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


I appologize, I did miss read that part.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 12:13 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
I appologize, I did miss read that part.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359]

Well, I've been writing a lot of material, it's probably easy to miss a relevant word or two.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 12:22 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
All of that DID go into regulations. The Assault Weapons ban, as previously mentioned, did not ban assault weapons. It regulated magazine size, style of stock, and attached accessories. It also banned some weapons that had a scary appearance or bad reputation, but which would not otherwise have been prohibited. Not being a retroactive ban, it didn't actually remove any of this stuff from circulation. It simply prevented additional such items from being manufactured or imported.

So, we're not talking about assault weapons. We are talking about banning various attachments and options on regular semiautomatic rifles.

So far, you list:

A) Banning pistol grips, which make shooting much more comfortable.
B) Banning folding stocks, which make rifles easier to stow.
C) Banning large magazines. (Shall we say a 10 bullet limit?)

Presumably you do not intend to outlaw semiautomatic weapons outright.

Are your new regulations proposed to be retroactive or will existing articles be grandfathered in?

Do you imagine any exceptions for Americans who can prove that they have completed a proficiency and safety course related to the weapons, or do you see such weapons as unnecessary, period?



I think we can talk about banning assault weapons, and those based on "true" assault weapons. We can also ban some modifications to allowed firearms.

As for number of rounds, I would say limit to 5 for Rifles, 8 for shotguns, 10 for Pistols.

Existing Gun could remain with the owner provided no one in the same home has any existing mental health issues. Those guns could not be sold or transferred to any other owner and would have to be turned in when the owner dies.

Permits and safety classes should be required for all firearms. As well as full registration of each weapon. All sales would have to be made through a licensed dealer so that background checks, licenses and registrations can be checked. A license would also be required to buy ammo, and only be allowed to purchase of weapons registered to that license.


I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 12:51 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important



Quote:

I think we can talk about banning assault weapons, and those based on "true" assault weapons. We can also ban some modifications to allowed firearms.


Hello,

I think I illustrated pretty well that the term 'assault weapon' and 'based on assault weapon' is fairly meaningless, and that you probably need to create a criteria based on concrete features you consider dangerous, not the word 'assault weapon.'

Quote:


As for number of rounds, I would say limit to 5 for Rifles, 8 for shotguns, 10 for Pistols.



I don't quite understand these limits. What inspired you to choose them? Do you realize that such a limit would outlaw several lever-action rifles from the late 19th century? Or did you intend the rifle limit to apply exclusively to semiautomatic rifles, and not manually actuated arms?

Quote:

Existing Gun could remain with the owner provided no one in the same home has any existing mental health issues. Those guns could not be sold or transferred to any other owner and would have to be turned in when the owner dies.


Would the owner's estate be credited for the value of the arms in question? And would the owner be fully compensated if they elected to surrender the weapon early?

Quote:

Permits and safety classes should be required for all firearms.


What is the purpose of a permit? Given that safety courses and background checks are part of your plan, what is the permit designed to accomplish?

Quote:

As well as full registration of each weapon. All sales would have to be made through a licensed dealer so that background checks, licenses and registrations can be checked.


Would you be willing to limit access to the registry so that it could not be used except when investigating a crime with a court order?

Quote:

A license would also be required to buy ammo, and only be allowed to purchase of weapons registered to that license.


Is this license the aforementioned permit?

Would you be willing to accommodate some training or safety course that would allow someone to obtain prohibited weapons and/or accessories? Or do you consider the prohibited weapons so inherently injurious to the public safety that they should not be allowed under any circumstances or exceptions?

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, December 18, 2012 1:10 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


No, Anthony, that one stumped me, too.
Quote:

permits should only be granted to applicants who have completed gun safety training.
Quote:

It would be wiser to have people complete a gun safety course before buying a gun.

What is the difference between the two? What am I missing?

Uh, Nick:
Quote:

Existing Gun could remain with the owner provided no one in the same home has any existing mental health issues.

DAMN! Here we go again. So you'd take away my husband's guns? This thing about "mental-health issues" continues to piss me off; it's bandied about like we're all the same, like everyone with a mental-health issue is a danger. I say again: How many people with a potentially SERIOUS, dangerous, mental-health issue do you think would ever seek treatment if they knew it meant they could never have a gun, or that their mother/father/husband/wife would have to get rid of any guns they have around, once they were diagnosed with, for example, DEPRESSION?!? How many parents/husbands/wives would seek help for their child/spouse if they knew it would mean they'd have to get rid of their guns and couldn't protect themselves in future? You really think that would HELP?

Nobody addressed this when I spoke up about it before; somebody bloody well better address it as this discussion goes forward nationally, because the implications are ENORMOUS. You would deny us all the right to defend ourselves because we sought treatment? Think about that.

Other than that, I agree with everything you wrote, and no, Anthony, I wouldn't "be willing to accommodate some training or safety course that would allow someone to obtain prohibited weapons and/or accessories". And I propose we change "assault weapon" to "semi-automatic weapon", for clarity purposes. I'm not sure what, aside from semi-autos, would be considered an assault weapon; please educate me if there are others. But that seems the easiest way to clear up the distinction.

And finally, Anthony, I am thrilled beyond belief (NOT joking) to see you ARE able to accept some restrictions on your rights regarding this issue. I take back most of what I said; I still believe it's a special issue for you, but I'm glad it's not as adamant as I thought it was.

What do you think of the gun-show loophole? I think we already know your opinion of internet sale of guns, I seem to remember we discussed that one before--wait, on the other hand, you just said you'd approve of background checks; how does that fit with internet sales?

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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