REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

A Wulfs Answer

POSTED BY: WULFENSTAR
UPDATED: Monday, December 24, 2012 21:14
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Thursday, December 20, 2012 9:42 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Rap can hunt down and post all the instances he wants of people successfully subduing a criminal. I posted it somewhere else--not gonna bother trying to find it in all the gun threads!--and the fact is that people are successful in preventing a crime by using a gun something like a little over 1% of the time. That's all that needs saying. But do let him go ahead and spend his time looking for any of those 1% of examples, at least it would keep him busy and out of here.

I'm surprised Rap hasn't posted the infamous "study" done a while ago:
Quote:

A few years back, a study was published by Kleck and Gertz which concluded that each year 2.5 million crimes were prevented by civilians (i.e., not police officers or security guards) with guns - by brandishing them, shooting them, or merely talking about them. This assertion is accepted and repeated by a large group of people.

The obvious flaws in the methodology of the study, as well as its factual conflict with reliable data, are interesting to dig into, but to me, a more fundamental question arises: Have people lost the ability to relate statistical assertions to their own very real lives so as to be able to detect even the most obvious BS?

The specific claim based on the study is this ("DGU" means "defensive gun use"):
Quote:

222 of the 4799 respondents reported having at least one DGU in their household in the past 5 years. After correcting for oversampling in some regions, this figure drops to 66 personal accounts of DGUs in the preceding year, indicating that 1.326 percent of adults nationwide had experienced at least one DGU. When multiplied by 1.478, the average number of DGUs reported per DGU claimant for the preceding year, and by the total adult population, an estimate of 2.55 million DGUs per year was arrived at.

Okay, let's just mull that over for a minute. 1.3% of all American adults prevented at least one crime - last year - by brandishing, shooting, or referring to a gun. Not only that, but it happens year in and year out. And it's not the same 1.3% every year - while there's some overlap, the study results actually suggest that for the most part it's a new group doin' it each and every year (222/4799 yields 4.6% over five years, or a new .9% of the population engaging in DGU's each year).

So, my having been an adult for about forty years, I should personally know a lot of people this has happened to. 40 X .9 = 36%! Of course the population has turned over during that time period with old people dying and new people achieving adulthood, so if it was done just once per lifetime by each defender it'd be closer to 18%. If we pump up the "repeat defender" rate by assuming that there are repeaters from one 5 year time span to another so we don't have to assume that 18% of all Americans engaged in DGU over that period of time we're still left with a substantial fraction of the population. I mean, during that time there's probably a hundred people I've known really well - well enough so that if they had prevented an actual crime (and used a gun to do so) I'm confident that I'd know about it. But I don't. I actually don't know a single one. I do know that people do prevent crimes, both with and without guns, and I've personally participated in crime prevention a couple of times. (I've lived in some fairly high-crime areas.) But actual "crime prevented by gun-totin' civilian"? Absolutely zero first hand experience, zero reliable second hand experience.

So even without digging into the details of the study, it's not really too hard for me to figure that it really is a remarkable claim, which is inconsistent with my actual real life experience. In short, my BS meter isn't just twitching - it's hit the peg. And frankly - that was before I ran the numbers above - I just did that as a reality check. They had me at "2.5 million times a year."

So why do people just accept a claim like this? If people were actually preventing crime all the time - 120,000 time per month - we'd actually know about lots and lots of actual such events, involving people we actually know. But we don't. At best most of us have a "friend of a friend" that we've heard about, or read a story in the newspaper (since such events would typically be dramatic and newsworthy) But we don't actually have anywhere near the reliable personal information we should have if this claim were true.

So why do people believe stuff which doesn't even fit with their own very real lives? http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/430919-why-do-some-peo
ple-believe-2-5-million-crimes-prevented-guns.html


Please don't tell me that you've experienced a lot of this, Frem, because your life is not the "norm", okay? And any claim by Wulf or Rap that they've known lots of people who, yada, yada, is suspicious to me. How about anyone else?

The study which claims the 2.5 million number is flawed in so many ways that it is totally irrelevant. For one thing, it was a SURVEY which gun advocates adore, but isn't statistically anything.
Quote:

...a study published in 1995 arguing that Americans use guns in self-defense some 2.5 million times a year, or once every 13 seconds. A Google search finds more than 1 million citations of this study posted online.

1) Even if you think the 2.5 million statistic was correct at the time it was computed, it must be obsolete today. The 1995 study was based upon data collected when crime rates were vastly higher than they are today. Some of the data was collected in 1981, near the very peak of the post-Vietnam War crime wave. It's just incredible on its face that defensive gun use would remain fixed at one level even as criminal attempts tumbled by one-third to one-half.

2) When we hear the phrase "defensive gun use," we're inclined to imagine a gun owner producing a weapon to defend himself or herself against bodily threat. The authors of the 1995 study aggregated 13 prior polls of gun users, most of which did not define what was meant by "use." As the authors of the 1995 aggregation study themselves ruefully acknowledged: "The lack of such detail raises the possibility that the guns were not actually 'used' in any meaningful way. Instead, (respondents) might be remembering occasions on which they merely carried a gun for protection 'just in case' or investigated a suspicious noise in their backyard, only to find nothing." In other words, even if the figure of 2.5 million defensive gun uses had been correct at some point back in the early 1990s or early 1980s, the vast majority of those "uses" may be householders picking up a shotgun before checking out the noises in the garage made by raccoons rooting through the trash.

3) The figure of 2.5 million defensive gun uses is supposed to represent the number of such uses per year. Yet none of the studies aggregated in the 1995 paper measured annual use. Most asked some version of the question, "Have you ever?" Two asked instead, "Have you within the past five years?" The authors of the 1995 study took those latter two surveys, multiplied the rate in the survey by the number of U.S. households, then divided by five to produce an annual figure.

It's not very likely that many respondents thought, "Today it's August 1990. I do remember scaring off a prowler in June 1984. But that was more than five years ago, so the answer to the question is 'No.' Not within the past five years."
More likely they thought, "I'll never forget the night I warned off a prowler with my shotgun. That was scary. Man, I'm glad I had my gun ready. When was that anyway? Three years ago? Four? I don't remember exactly, but the answer to the question is 'Yes.' "

4) Meanwhile, over in the world of hard numbers, the FBI counted an average of 213 justified firearm homicides per year over the period 2005-2010. If the figure of 2.5 million defensive gun uses were any way close to accurate, it would imply that brandishing a gun in self-defense led to a fatality only 0.00852% of the time. That seems almost miraculously low.

5) Underneath all these statistical problems is a larger conceptual problem. When we hear "defensive gun use," we're invited to think of a law-abiding citizen confronting a criminal aggressor. Yet crime does not always present itself so neatly. The vast majority of homicides take place between intimates, not strangers. Assaults, too, are often an acquaintance crime.

Perhaps when we hear "defensive gun use," we should not imagine a householder confronting a prowler. Perhaps we should think of two acquaintances, both with some criminal history, getting into a drunken fight, both producing guns, one ending up dead or wounded, the other ending up as a "DGU" statistic -- but both of them entangled in a scenario that would have produced only injuries if neither had carried a gun.

To be clear: I'm not disputing that guns sometimes save lives. I'm questioning the claim that widespread gun ownership makes America a safer place. The research supporting that claim is pretty weak -- and is contradicted above all by the plain fact that most other advanced countries have many fewer guns and also many fewer crimes and criminals.

But most of the time, gun owners are frightening themselves irrationally. They have conjured in their own imaginations a much more terrifying environment than genuinely exists -- and they are living a fantasy about the security their guns will bestow. And to the extent that they are right -- to the extent that the American environment is indeed more dangerous than the Australian or Canadian or German or French environment -- the dangers gun owners face are traceable to the prevalence of the very guns from which they so tragically mistakenly expect to gain safety.Excerpts from http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/30/opinion/frum-guns-safer/index.html



Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 11:34 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Please don't tell me that you've experienced a lot of this, Frem, because your life is not the "norm", okay?


And yanno, that's a good thing, cause I wouldn't wish such a nasty history on anybody!

Although one thing about my whole reality check comments does bear a certain amount of consideration - that whole 20foot rush thing, you know that means someone doesn't necessarily *need* a weapon(1) to screw up a would be shooters intentions if he or she is projecting them, which they very often do since working themselves into a state where they are capable of that degree of violence is usually (but not always) an actual process.(2)

Worth remembering that I am putting thought into this from a security/response perspective as well as an individual one - while as stated the chances of an armed respondant in range are pretty low, the odds of SOMEONE being in that rush-range aren't, if only they knew what to do and how to do it...
And THAT kind of training is neither difficult nor expensive, as all they NEED to do is hang the shooter up and prevent them from getting aimed shots off till assistance arrives.

Just some thoughts on that.

-Frem

(1) Although, admittedly, it helps.

(2) Reference note on that, cribbed from here.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/shadow_dancing.htm
Quote:

Shadow dances can come in many shapes and forms. The most obvious are when a potential attacker is in the middle of an emotional meltdown, and you are confronting him. In those cases, moving into and out of attack position while being ready to commit violence can be rather blatant.

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 12:02 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


For all the screed...

For all the bullshit that government should "DO SOMETHING!"

IF I had been there, heard the gunshots.... I would have (after ignoring the gun-free zone "laws") run inside and shot this sick fuck. When he was down and attempting to eat the wrong end of his firearm, would have put as many rounds into him as my "hi-cap" mag had.

Why? Cus these sick, wrong, evil bastards don't get to go out by their own hand.

I would have run in, done it even while bleeding or hurt. Even scared. Even with a wife and child.

Why? Well, we see what happens when you don't.

This is a 9/11 moment. Who, in their right mind would let someone take an airplane NOW? You see what happens, right?

As to gun control.... heh.

FUCK YOU.

I'll carry into California, DC, NJ, NY, Chicago... now more than ever. Cus, I see what happens.

The blood of children are on the hands of those who support gun-control and gun-free zones.

I have no use for you, and wish you a swift exit.



"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 12:16 PM

CHRISISALL


Wulf, chill baby. Cool heads prevail; hot heads fail.

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 12:19 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Wulf, chill baby. Cool heads prevail; hot heads fail."

No.

No. Never again.

Cool heads sit and spin, trying to figure out the murderers motive. His "motivation".

Hot heads kill these sick fucks before they kill 20 children.

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 12:22 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Wulf, chill baby. Cool heads prevail; hot heads fail.



Why don't you just call him a dick, and move on?

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 12:24 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Never again.

Never, by law or screed of the sheep.

No law or mandate by wrong people will disarm me, or make me defenseless to these evil people (that they created).

Gun control, and the mindset behind it, is over.

If I am to be an outlaw, the singular sane man in a room of fools... so be it.

Its done. Its finished.





"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 12:32 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
IF I had been there, heard the gunshots.... I would have (after ignoring the gun-free zone "laws") run inside and shot this sick fuck.



Just as much chance that you would have been number 28.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 12:38 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Just as much chance that you would have been number 28."

Then, God allow, my finger would have been squeezing the trigger that I would have been pulling to save those kids.

If, my death would have been the payment that would buy those children life... I happily would have paid.

The slim chance to stand and send the lead against this wrong thing... I would pay for it. And gladly.


"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 12:39 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:


IF I had been there, heard the gunshots.... I would have (after ignoring the gun-free zone "laws") run inside and shot this sick fuck. When he was down and attempting to eat the wrong end of his firearm, would have put as many rounds into him as my "hi-cap" mag had.




Pubescent superhero fantasy

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 12:40 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:

Cool heads sit and spin, trying to figure out the murderers motive. His "motivation".


No, I mean if you WERE to kill a sick f**k, do it with cold precision, not with anger.

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 12:41 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Pubescent superhero fantasy"

Im 35 you stupid fuck.

You are a coward.

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 1:05 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
"Pubescent superhero fantasy"

Im 35 you stupid fuck.

You are a coward.




I've no idea of whether I would be a coward or not. Faced with a heavily armed gunman, I may well crap myself. I hope I never get to experience it.

What I am not is a middle aged man with superhero delusions that befit a skinny, pathetic teenage boy.

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 2:59 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:

Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:


IF I had been there, heard the gunshots.... I would have (after ignoring the gun-free zone "laws") run inside and shot this sick fuck. When he was down and attempting to eat the wrong end of his firearm, would have put as many rounds into him as my "hi-cap" mag had.






Pubescent superhero fantasy




The same as every wulftard post, ever.

Exactly what I said before, too. He's fantasizing about being the big gun wielding toughguy.





Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:09 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:


No law or mandate by wrong people will disarm me, or make me defenseless to these evil people (that they created).



Gun laws created a crazy son of a gun lover?

You are such a fucking moron. Shit, son, you have more in common with that family than anyone in this conversation.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 4:15 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

He's fantasizing about being the big gun wielding toughguy.


Hello,

What is especially disturbing to me is this: He wants to be a killer. Even if the perp was about to kill himself, that would not be sufficient. Wulf wants to hurry up and murder him before the opportunity is snatched away by suicide.

Quote:

When he was down and attempting to eat the wrong end of his firearm, would have put as many rounds into him as my "hi-cap" mag had.


This is troubling thinking. It is so deeply and terribly wrong.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Thursday, December 20, 2012 5:09 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

This is troubling thinking. It is so deeply and terribly wrong.


Wulf has issues...and sometimes posts after imbibing. He's not as crazy as some posts would have you believe.
IMO.

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Friday, December 21, 2012 6:06 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

He's fantasizing about being the big gun wielding toughguy.


Hello,

What is especially disturbing to me is this: He wants to be a killer. Even if the perp was about to kill himself, that would not be sufficient. Wulf wants to hurry up and murder him before the opportunity is snatched away by suicide.

Quote:

When he was down and attempting to eat the wrong end of his firearm, would have put as many rounds into him as my "hi-cap" mag had.


This is troubling thinking. It is so deeply and terribly wrong.

--Anthony




Many of his posts, long before this, involved his fantasizing about killing someone. Liberals, Muslims - SOMEbody. It's deeply sick.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, December 21, 2012 6:14 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Many of his posts, long before this, involved his fantasizing about killing someone. Liberals, Muslims - SOMEbody. It's deeply sick.


Hello,

Yes, but always under some excuse, some fantasy of heroism.

This is the first time I have seen him admit to wanting to commit murder for the satisfaction of the act itself.

Any story of heroism or defense of innocents fell away the moment he admitted that he wanted to murder a man before he could commit suicide. Hence, stopping the attacker and seeing him removed from the population is not sufficient. No excuse is presented. Not even the veil of pretense.

Wulf wants to commit the murder. And that is vile and disturbing.

--Anthony





Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 21, 2012 8:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Don't know why this surprises you, Anthony. As Mark said,
Quote:

Many of his posts, long before this, involved his fantasizing about killing someone. Liberals, Muslims - SOMEbody. It's deeply sick.

This is just another example of it, nothing more.

It's only a step away from the mentality that is in your very own signature. Yes, it's a step away, but only one, and the immature dick has expressed such things many, many times. Should come as no surprise to anyone.

Whether he posts when drunk or not, his entire mentality is something I abhor. We've been there many, many times on many subjects. Wulf is always the "hero" who would solve everything with a simple, usually violent, solution. It's just same-old, same-old.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Friday, December 21, 2012 12:49 PM

FREMDFIRMA



But not at all surprising, I had him pegged long before this.
What bothers ME so much about it is that this isn't as much of an aberration as it should be, Marc MacYoung has an excellent precis on the topic here.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/violence_geeks.htm
Quote:

A violence geek is someone whose fantasy world isn't about reading the adventures of others. In his fantasy world, HE is Conan the Destroyer … about to unleash carnage and death on the evil world that hurt him. What makes violence geeks scary is that they are practicing and training for that day. In fact, he's looking forward to it. All he needs is the right opportunity to give himself permission to go on a rampage.

I chase no few of these out of interviews, and all too damn many of em wind up hired by someone else despite each and every being a disaster just waiting to happen.. to someone.

-Frem

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Friday, December 21, 2012 1:04 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Let's hope his mother doesn't keep guns that would be accessable to him in the basement.

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Friday, December 21, 2012 1:34 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Let's hope his mother doesn't keep guns that would be accessable to him in the basement.



Hello,

Wulf has his own guns, a wife, and a child.

I frequently hope that he is an empty windbag.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Friday, December 21, 2012 5:16 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)











"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Saturday, December 22, 2012 11:28 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Wulf is very upset. His desire to kill the perpetrator himself instead of letting the guy suicide is merely a revenge thing, it honestly doesn't worry me all that much. Sure other things Wulf has said in the past have concerned me, but this really doesn't so much.

I better not ever express real frustration around here, I've seen what happens when I do, and when others do. They get stepped on and treated poorly.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Saturday, December 22, 2012 11:53 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Wulf is very upset.


Hello,

People are prone to say horrible things when they are upset.

The corollary is that when they are no longer upset, when time has past, they should review those horrible statements with remorse, possibly apologize. Their tone and manner will transform into a more reasonable tone and manner.

Then observers can say, "Well, he was upset, he didn't mean those things."

Wulf is either perpetually upset, or he stands by his terrible statements regardless of his mood.

Neither of those possibilities seems good.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, December 23, 2012 6:31 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Wulf is either perpetually upset, or he stands by his terrible statements regardless of his mood.

Neither of those possibilities seems good.


In a nutshell.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Monday, December 24, 2012 6:46 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Wow.

Blame the guns.

Say that the monster who did this was also a victim who should be mourned.

Blame me for wishing to stop this person, and the "horror" of desiring vengeance.

Blame the Republican, the Tea Party, the Founders, Fox News etc.


But very few here actually place the blame for all of these childrens deaths where it rightfully belongs.

The murderer. The one who (after murdering his own mother, and stealing her guns), forced his way into an elementary school and murdered all of these children.

Good Lord. I would have liked to have stopped this. I would have liked to end it before it began. Oh noes! Oooga Booga, Im the devil!


This thread, right here (and the responses I've seen), is WHY these shootings happen.

Ya'll should look in the mirror really hard. Did this stuff happen in the 50s? Why not? What changed? Whom and what were the agents of this "change"?

I have been staying away from here because, to be honest, you people (except for a few) piss me off. But, I thought, in this case we could all agree. Of course, I was disappointed.





"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Monday, December 24, 2012 7:34 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

In another thread, a short while ago, you said you were in a good mood.

Can I presume that, in a good mood, you still think hurrying up to murder a guy before he can commit suicide is okay?

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 24, 2012 7:49 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Murder is the unrighteous killing of an innocent.

So, you believe killing this evil f*ck before (or during) hurting those children... is murder.

Interesting.

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Monday, December 24, 2012 7:55 AM

BYTEMITE


Anthony's point was specifically about killing him after he did it and was surrendering/committing suicide. Which is basically just justice. While you had an exterminate with extreme prejudice thing going on which seems to have disturbed people, I'm not bothered by that. It's what our society would have done to him anyway if they'd ever gotten their hands on him.

I'm bothered by arguments about killing the guy before he had committed the crime, that's thought crime or pre-crime stuff straight out of Minority Report or something. You'd have to either have psychics like River or you'd have to be doing some crazy amounts of monitoring or having people report on each other to be able to get that information and act on it with any degree of accuracy.

Better preventing crime through personal relations and help for people who might fall to evil, rather than killing them before they could do harm. Because with the later scenario, every single one of us would have a target on our backs.

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Monday, December 24, 2012 8:05 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Its the old question. If you were able to transport yourself to 1929, and met Hitler... would you kill him?

Would you have the right to do so? Considering the multiverse, butterfly-effect etc.

For me, the minute this evil bastard shot his way into an elementary school... he was open game.

Same thing if Im on a plane, and someone starts attacking people, or screaming they have a bomb... you've just lost the "Immabenice" side to me.

This is a 9-11 type of moment. Said it before, say it again.

Lets not be fucktards and give the government too much power AGAIN. MmKay?

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Monday, December 24, 2012 8:11 AM

BYTEMITE


In order to kill a person before they committed the crime, you would have to greatly increase government control.

However, I'm mildly assuaged by your explanation that you'd wait until they outright publicly stated or demonstrated intent to commit the crime. Though there are potentially still problems with that.

There was a woman, mentally ill, on an airplane recently who told flight attendants that terrorists had cut her open and put a bomb in her. There was no such bomb, she was crazy. But harmless.

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Monday, December 24, 2012 8:18 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


I didn't say that. Im not going to attack or report someone who just stated they wanted to do some horrendous act.

Freedom of speech. Blowing of steam. Good, fine, go ahead. Its necessary, its a right. Its needed.

But you pull a weapon, point it at someone? Game over.

I'm willing to give someone a chance right up to a a point. Whereby they have removed all doubt of intent.

Again, being angry, pissed, whatever. Scream, rant, rave... however, when the intent is too obvious to ignore. Its done.

Most sane, good people are like that.



"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Monday, December 24, 2012 8:18 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Double post

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Monday, December 24, 2012 11:59 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
I didn't say that. Im not going to attack or report someone who just stated they wanted to do some horrendous act.

Freedom of speech. Blowing of steam. Good, fine, go ahead. Its necessary, its a right. Its needed.

But you pull a weapon, point it at someone? Game over.

I'm willing to give someone a chance right up to a a point. Whereby they have removed all doubt of intent.

Again, being angry, pissed, whatever. Scream, rant, rave... however, when the intent is too obvious to ignore. Its done.

Most sane, good people are like that.





Okay

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Monday, December 24, 2012 3:18 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Technically one citizen armed with a lot of ammo DID stop it - just don't know about the good part, and not before killing a bunch of children.



Excellent point.

As for the armed guard, what a horrific idea. Its already mass prison for youth, we are going to add armed guards? The level of abuse would become inhuman.

Anyway, byte is right of course, these killings are carefully planned sometimes for years. The taking out of the security guard wiuld be the first oart of the new plan. That would just give the killer a new weapon to use. In fact, if the guard was armed with state of the art weaponry and armor, the killer would simply need to plan an assassination requiring no weapons, such as poiskn, electrocution, etc. And then he could have massive firepower even if he were completely bkocked from owning a gun.

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Monday, December 24, 2012 9:14 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Maybe its the inner Pathan, but I don't think Wulf is being all that irrational, I know I'm not supposed to be, but I'm ... kind of into revenge. On a rational level I know its pointless and not advisable, but emotionally I relate to it. Plus in case the rutter chickens out on the suicide plan its good to just have it over. But of course then there's the piece of me that says its never too late, maybe if the rutter goes to jail he could have a chance to repent etc. I'm a complicated person.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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