REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Gender and Violence and Blame

POSTED BY: MAGONSDAUGHTER
UPDATED: Sunday, January 20, 2013 15:56
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Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:08 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I challenge everyone on the board to think back over their lifetime experience over who got physically violent, and count up the instances and sort it by gender.


Women overwhelm mine, because I'm the main feature in all of the violent episodes I can recall.

Quote:

But IRL, women tend to be under MORE stress than men, if you simply want to weigh the responsibilities and commitments versus the resources.


...Nooooo... Kinda don't think that either.

I think we're not going to make any headway in this discussion.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:13 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:


BYTE, on the one hand you want to think that everyone is like you or that you're like everyone. OTOH you want us all to think you're a sociopath. So, what you're saying is that everyone is a sociopath. If that were the case, the word would have no meaning. So, what ARE you saying?



The word has meaning because it is pretty much everyone. That's the state of our society. Everyone is a sociopath.

And when someone comes out as a sociopath, and admits their wrongdoing, everyone feels like it's perfectly okay to use that as ammunition as a point in an argument. Sig just played the you're a sociopath card, she wins.

Seriously, where is any of that even applicable to the conversation, or did you just want to hedge that in again because it's worked to quell me in the past?

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:14 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


" ... you are never too old to deliver a much needed ass kicking."

Obviously written by a young person. Though I can say to both you and Chris,isall age isn't the issue - size, strength, disability, numbers and weapons are. There are old people who are in decent shape. And there are young people with disabilities. And there are old people with disabilities. Though given the nature of aging, you will probably find more old people with disabilities than young people. More women who are smaller and less muscular than men. More women are isolated from help. More men who own weapons. More men who are aggressive.

Back to aging, when I was younger I had no clue what aging would bring to me. I had no idea that some days just getting out of bed and standing up straight would be a victory against pain.

I was in seriously kick-ass shape - could race bicycles against guys over long - think 100+ mile - distances and not feel it. I was rock-solid, fit, strong, alert. I'd taken judo and self defense. Lived in a bad part of town and so was quite wary.

But here’s my experience with physical violence. Back then a man tried to attack me and ran away screaming in frustration b/c I was taking punches and backing up, but not going down. But he was only marginally larger than I was. If he'd been much larger, or stronger, or if he'd been more experienced or had more intent - I wouldn't have had a chance. If he'd had a knife - I wouldn't have had a chance. If he'd had a gun - I wouldn't have had a chance. If he'd had a friend with him - I wouldn't have had a chance. I don't care how situationally alert, young, fit, experienced and ready to defend yourself you are - circumstances win out. Claiming anything else is fantasy.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:14 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

And when someone comes out as a sociopath, and admits their wrongdoing, everyone feels like it's perfectly okay to use that as ammunition as a point in an argument. Sig just played the you're a sociopath card, she wins.

No, I said YOU say you're a sociopath. I said I would take you seriously on that score, and I do. If anyone has ever played that card it's you.

You can't have it both ways, BYTE. You can't stake a claim and then cry FOUL when someone recognizes it!

So now you continue to say that everyone else is a sociopath too. Just like you.

AFA you featuring in your own list of violent episodes by women... well, you're the odd one out then. Your personal experience is just your personal experience. You're one instance in a society of many.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:22 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

You're one instance in a society of many.


No way. I might've done wrong on the board and in my real life, but I'm not quite delusional enough yet to think there aren't people out there, both men and women, who haven't done worse than me.

And that most people WOULDN'T do worse under certain circumstances.

That's what humanity is. Shades of grey.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:25 AM

BYTEMITE


People say I get personal, but when people ask me about being a sociopath, isn't that taking the argument in a personal direction? People get pissed when I bring it up, say that I'm being an attention whore, but then other people get to bring it up just to score points in an argument?

Let's drop the sociopath line of inquiry, it's not even tangential to this real world event discussion.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:29 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Is this going to be a 'men are mostly violent, women are mostly not' thread?

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:32 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Is this going to be a 'men are mostly violent, women are mostly not' thread?

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz



Yes. It makes me hit my head. It makes me rocket propel my head through the nearest wall, and then all that's left of my scalp is exposed skull and bloody ribbons with stringy hair attached to it due to the friction involved with my head repeatedly hitting that brick wall.

This is my goddamn agony, and since this thread is going there, I feel compelled to share that misery with everyone.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:34 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Yes BYTE, you push someone hard enough and god knows what someone "might" do. I've been so frustrated I threw a glass against a wall. (Soft wallboard, all I did was dent the wall.) I was picked on in school... I would imagine by people pretty much like you. But I didn't take your path.

And, if I may say so... YOU started the discussion down this path by bringing up your own sorry history. Sorry if you don't like the destination.

So, enough of you, and back to the discussion at hand.

------------------

TONY, hmmm... yes, that IS what I've been saying, isn't it? But it's not all men, obviously. Men are also victims of (male) violence... all you have to do is look at gun deaths to see that the perps and victims are often of the same gender. Clearly, it is a subset of males who are extra-juicy aggressive.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:37 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Is this going to be a 'men are mostly violent, women are mostly not' thread?"

I would change that to a higher percentage of men are violent than women.

That's been my experience and observation. Statistics seem to bear that out. Not that women aren't abusive, they're just abusive in non-physical ways and for different reasons.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:39 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Seems this isn't a thread about sharing or learning or enlightenment.

Someone's got a tally of statistics and a bag of conclusions.

What am I here for, then?

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:41 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


TONY- What are you here for? To represent the non-aggressive male. To tell us why you're not aggressive, perhaps, or explain to us what you think should be done.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:41 AM

BYTEMITE


Sig, I told the board I was a sociopath to keep me fucking honest because I was becoming extremely manipulative. It wasn't to win a point in an argument, it was because it was a necessity.

You bringing up my sociopathy in this thread isn't about keeping me honest, calling me out on misbehaviour towards other people, it's about winning a point in an argument. It cheapens my emotional investment in this argument to a single label, and it cheapens your emotional investment to turn a conversation about other people being RAPED and BEING BLAMED for it into an argument about MY sociopathy.

And I'm saying, this conversation deserves to be about that, solving that problem, and not my sociopathy, which is not even relevant to this because I've never raped someone. The conversation started to turn towards the issue of which gender is more violent, which is something I seriously disagree about, and which I have opinions based on my personal experience about. And perhaps you're right, and I shouldn't even have let the thread derail to THAT. So my sociopathy is just right out then.


EDIT:
Quote:


So, enough of you, and back to the discussion at hand.



Splendid.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:48 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Seems this isn't a thread about sharing or learning or enlightenment.

Someone's got a tally of statistics and a bag of conclusions.

What am I here for, then?"

Uhm ... is that directed at me?

I think it's a general observation across history and cultures. Not that there aren't major exceptions - men who've experienced violence who are not violent, or women with pacifist backgrounds who are violent.

Now generally I don’t go for 'human nature' arguments. So I'm very willing to think there's something in our organization that creates that general effect of more violence in males. Like the aggressive baboons that got killed off by eating tainted meat, leading to a reasonably (for baboons) non-violent society; or the chimps that developed a steep male-dominated hierarchy when food was placed in an easily dominated piles rather than scattered around. Maybe it's a circumstance, maybe it's a fluke of history.

But as for your personal story, or HKC's, or the stories of others, of course I'm interested. Not just b/c they say a lot about people in general, but b/c they say specific things about you, which I find interesting, enlightening, and welcome.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:48 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

You bringing up my sociopathy in this thread isn't about keeping me honest, calling me out on misbehaviour towards other people, it's about winning a point in an argument. It cheapens my emotional investment in this argument to a single label, and it cheapens your emotional investment to turn a conversation about other people being RAPED and BEING BLAMED for it into an argument about MY sociopathy.
I brought up your claimed sociopathy because you said
Quote:

Women overwhelm mine, because I'm the main feature in all of the violent episodes I can recall.


Quote:

So, enough of you, and back to the discussion at hand. -Signy

Splendid.-Byte



Is that not what you asked for??? As I recall...
Quote:

And I'm saying, this conversation deserves to be about that, solving that problem, and not my sociopathy, which is not even relevant to this because I've never raped someone. So try something else.
Since this conversation is once again about you, the next time I'm not even going to reply.


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Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:55 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Seems like I offended the aggressive female and the non-aggressive male on the board. I think I've been pretty clear and consistent in saying there is a lot of overlap, not only between societies but within a society. Two bell curves, with offset averages but a lot of overlap.

Why are some people aggressive? Is is social? Neurodevelopmental? Hormonal? Some combination?

How can we get the violent people to be less violent? How can we encourage victims to protect themselves and each other?

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 8:55 AM

BYTEMITE


I wrote that while you wrote yours. There was overlap that has to be allowed for.

So, self defense apparently doesn't protect women against rape. You believe that cooperation does?

What about in Afghanistan where mothers are involved in trading their little girls like chattel to older men for marriage? That's some cooperation.

Actually, perhaps the only way to truly prevent rape is not individual threat, but societal. Perhaps these women in Delhi have a point that when rape is ignored or treated like a slap on the wrist, it's almost encouraged. The punishment for rape has to be serious enough to discourage it.

On the other hand, there are some punishments that can occur before or during the act that don't require strength or fighting skill on the part of the woman. It bothers me that punishment has to wait until AFTER the fact in most cases... When juries have to rely on hearsay, and where victim blaming defenses can come into play.

I guess what I'm saying is, what about seriously dangerous inserts that women can wear? I know for a fact they exist. Maybe men can wear them as well in their vulnerable orifices. This would very likely seriously cut down on all rape, but a question remains about safety for the user and hygiene.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:01 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


So my hubby has been insisting I bring this reference to the board:

The Algorithmic Origins of Life

Sara Imari Walker, Paul CW Davies
NASA Astrobiology Institute

Discusses, among other things, the interplay between algorithm and environment.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:05 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

I guess what I'm saying is, what about seriously dangerous inserts that women can wear?
Hmmm... certainly worth thinking about. Wouldn't help in cases of anal rape (unless you wanted an insert in your rectum, too) or penetration by object, which is what apparently did this young woman in. But for the average rape, it would be a little like carrying a weapon... ya never know who might be "packing"!

AFA the women who sell their children like chattel, there is a problem in societies founded on violence which is... well, pretty much all of them. Those on power dribble out a little power to the next down the line to get their "buy in" and so forth and so on down the line, until you reach the most vulnerable and helpless.

You would literally have to construct a new society to reverse the problem, with its own set of economic and social groups. For example, instead of male-headed families where women are isolated from each other, mixed groups. It's been done with females, it should be able to be done with mixed company of well-meaning people.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:09 AM

BYTEMITE


yeah, exactly. And I was also thinking about for the rectum as well.

With an object wouldn't be helped by this, unfortunately, but then again surely most rapes and molestation happen organically, so to speak? It seems like an act that doesn't necessarily lend itself to a lot of forethought, so people would use what they're most likely to have immediately on hand, and a body part is more likely to be on hand than anything else. Plus it's the most likely to satisfy whatever rape urge they got.

Maybe daily inserts of some sort, that could help with the hygiene problem. But then you have to worry about assholes at the factory screwing with the inserts. Putting cayenne pepper on them, maybe even ejaculating on them if they're guys.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:09 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Has EVERY male on this board experienced abuse as a child???? It seems like nearly everyone (with the exception of rappy, hero and geezer) has experience early abuse. Is this the norm, then??? Or is this just a skewed population?


Yes to both questions. Abuse is far more prevalent than studies will ever show, plus, many kids who suffered abuse got into fantasy & SF for escape, so on a Firefly board you will find a higher incidence of it than on a Sport Fishing board IMO.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:15 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Re: Inserts - I am not interested in shoving anything up inside my body to prevent rape. I suspect most people feel this way, and not just men. It seems to me that if I shove something up inside myself to fend off a rapist, then the rapist has succeeded in getting something shoved up inside of me. Which was part of the thing I was trying to avoid.

Re: Hormones and violence - I'm sure hormones are related to amplifying emotion, based on experiences with hormonally imbalanced people. But I don't think creating strong emotion is itself enough to create violence. There has to be a willingness to commit the violence in order for this to matter.

Re: Violence - I think teaching empathy and reinforcing a norm of caring for others is the best tool in reducing not only violence, but abuse in general. One thing we must do is remove the idea that there is THEM and there is US. Whenever there's a THEM and US, it becomes easier to abuse people.

--Anthony




Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:15 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

You would literally have to construct a new society to reverse the problem, with its own set of economic and social groups. For example, instead of male-headed families where women are isolated from each other, mixed groups. It's been done with females, it should be able to be done with mixed company of well-meaning people.


Hmm. I am entirely okay with this.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:17 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Re: Inserts - I am not interested in shoving anything up inside my body to prevent rape. I suspect most people feel this way, and not just men. It seems to me that if I shove something up inside myself to fend off a rapist, then the rapist has succeeded in getting something shoved up inside of me. Which was part of the thing I was trying to avoid.


Except you're choosing it, and in the case of women, the inserts won't get you pregnant unless they've been tampered with. Plus, attacker gets punished, spiteful I know, but then I'm just full of spite.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:17 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Stiffer sentences haven't been the answer for other crimes - either non-violent or violent. The death penalty doesn't seem to deter murder, for example. What does seem to work is the perception that you will or won't get caught.

BTW - what I wonder is - what were these men telling themselves that made that attack OK?

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:18 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

I guess what I'm saying is, what about seriously dangerous inserts that women can wear?
Hmmm... certainly worth thinking about.

*shakes head*
That would almost certainly transform a rape into a murder.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:19 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:


BTW - what I wonder is - what were these men telling themselves that made that attack OK?



Also a point.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:21 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

I guess what I'm saying is, what about seriously dangerous inserts that women can wear?
Hmmm... certainly worth thinking about.

*shakes head*
That would almost certainly transform a rape into a murder.



Not necessarily. There are ways to put on hurt without permanent damage or even piercing.

Also, are we caring about this? Don't rapists tend to get the death penalty in this country anyway?

In my mind rape is already kind of a murder. It's about disrespecting and discarding the life and choice of a person, and many rape victims often die from their own wounds. A rapist is one kinda bastard I don't have any qualms against killing.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:27 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Just wanted to bring this up:

A Place Where Women Rule

Quote:

UMOJA, Kenya -- Seated cross-legged on tan sisal mats in the shade, Rebecca Lolosoli, matriarch of a village for women only, took the hand of a frightened 13-year-old girl. The child was expected to wed a man nearly three times her age, and Lolosoli told her she didn't have to.

The man was Lolosoli's brother, but that didn't matter. This is a patch of Africa where women rule.

"You are a small girl. He is an old man," said Lolosoli, who gives haven to young girls running from forced marriages. "Women don't have to put up with this nonsense anymore."

Ten years ago, a group of women established the village of Umoja, which means unity in Swahili, on an unwanted field of dry grasslands. The women said they had been raped and, as a result, abandoned by their husbands, who claimed they had shamed their community.

Stung by the treatment, Lolosoli, a charismatic and self-assured woman with a crown of puffy dark hair, decided no men would be allowed to live in their circular village of mud-and-dung huts.

....
What started as a group of homeless women looking for a place of their own became a successful and happy village. About three dozen women live here and run a cultural center and camping site for tourists visiting the adjacent Samburu National Reserve. Umoja has flourished, eventually attracting so many women seeking help that they even hired men to haul firewood, traditionally women's work.
ad_icon

....

But the women felt empowered with the revenue from the camping site and their cultural center, where they sell crafts. They were able to send their children to school for the first time, eat well and reject male demands for their daughters' circumcision and marriage.

They became so respected that troubled women, some beaten, some trying to get divorced, started showing up in this little village in northern Kenya. Lolosoli was even invited by the United Nations to attend a recent world conference on gender empowerment in New York.

"That's when the very ugly jealous behaviors started," Lolosoli said, adding that her life was threatened by local men right before her trip to New York. "They just said, frankly, that they wanted to kill me," Lolosoli said, laughing because she thought the idea sounded overly dramatic.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/08/AR2005
070801775_2.html



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Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:29 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Also, are we caring about this? Don't rapists tend to get the death penalty in this country anyway?


What? No way- they tend to get a brisk slap on the wrists! A year in the pokey, sometimes a fine... unless the victim has a lot of cash.




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Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:31 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Also, are we caring about this? Don't rapists tend to get the death penalty in this country anyway?


What? No way- they tend to get a brisk slap on the wrists! A year in the pokey, sometimes a fine... unless the victim has a lot of cash.






>_>

I'm sorry chris, but that turning a rape into murder thing... That comment kinda got to me.

You believe in self-defense, right, and when it's life or death, then do you think you can kill in self-defense?

What is more life threatening than rape? I do not understand your reasoning as equating fighting off a rapist with murder, especially when the rape victim so often succumbs to their wounds.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:37 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


CHRIS... what do you mean? That an insert could kill a man, or that the man would just get enraged and kill the woman?

If you mean the first... well, I hardly have sympathy for the rapist. If the latter... well, then it wouldn't be very effective and shouldn't be considered.

--------------
Quote:

Re: Inserts - I am not interested in shoving anything up inside my body to prevent rape. I suspect most people feel this way, and not just men. It seems to me that if I shove something up inside myself to fend off a rapist, then the rapist has succeeded in getting something shoved up inside of me. Which was part of the thing I was trying to avoid.
TONY- women get to deal with all of the sanitary aspects of having menstrual cycles, so shoving stuff up our vaginas isn't such an unusual prospect for us.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:48 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

I'm sorry chris, but that turning a rape into murder thing... That comment kinda got to me.


My dear, you misunderstood me due to my brevity, I don't give a rat's ass about a rapist's life, but what might be a survivable rape might turn to death if a person so already sick as to commit rape feels pain in that area and decides retaliate by killing the victim.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:54 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Just to get back to violence in general -

I think it's pretty clear that people have the capacity for violence as well as for sociality. Yanno - look at history.

I tend to try to frame this in an evolutionary sense. Some additional reading I've done recently indicates that some common chimpanzee troops hunt quite a bit. Females don't hunt. Males form hunting groups, dominated by not necessarily the best hunter, but often the larger, younger and/or more aggressive male. The dominant male decides who will be included in the hunting party. The dominant male also decides who gets what of the kill, if there is one. Females engage in extreme submissive behavior to beg for meat. Despite that, on the whole females only get about 1% of the meat. These troops also have been seen to engage in warfare of a sorts against neighboring chimpanzee troops - they use their organization and hunting skills against isolated chimpanzees where territories meet, killing them.

To me it seems like this 'hunting' creates an easily dominated resource, leading to the same types of steep male-dominated hierarchies seen when fruit gets piled into one pile. And group hunting behavior gets translated into territorial behavior.

This isn't necessarily a sustainable model. One might think it would allow for troops led by warlike dominant males to take over territory of more pacifist groups, allowing that behavior to thrive. OTOH the true generators of long-term survival - females and surviving young - benefit very little from this behavior. But evolution makes its first cut in the immediate time frame. So this behavior PRIMARILY benefits the creation and maintenance of a male hierarchy. If taken to an extreme, that behavior would lead to the decline of the overall population. Over time a balance is struck between aggressive dominant male behavior and group survival.

Anyway, the point is that evolution doesn't select for the optimum behaviors, it selects for the ones that control the most resources, and against the ones that lead to unsustainable mortality in females and offspring.

Bonobos also hunt. However, females hunt equally with males. And while there are hierarchies among both males and females, they don't revolve around food or mating. The friction of living in a hierarchical group is resolved through sex (lower ranking individuals offering sex to higher ranking individuals). This arrangement would seem to lead a thriving populations and long-term survival. I haven't read how territorial disputes between groups get resolved.

Anyway, I think people evolved in an egalitarian setting - where the means of survival was available to anyone's hand, literally. However, as people moved off the beach and out of the estuary, they encountered an environment where food was a lot scarcer. Hunting became a necessity. Since females rarely hunt in 'primitive' societies, I think this created an easily dominated 'rare resource' that COULD lead to the formation of hierarchies. Agriculture is another innovation that could accomplish the same thing, since the means of survival was limited to discrete areas of land not relocatable. Capitalism does the same thing, where a few have control over the means of survival for many.

I think we need to find a way to resolve our evolutionary egalitarian past and our restricted environment. I suspect that it's that conundrum that creates the conditions for a lot of unfortunate behavior.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:56 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

I'm sorry chris, but that turning a rape into murder thing... That comment kinda got to me.


My dear, you misunderstood me due to my brevity, I don't give a rat's ass about a rapist's life, but what might be a survivable rape might turn to death if a person so already sick as to commit rape feels pain in that area and decides retaliate by killing the victim.



Better than them getting away with it, since many of them already do that anyway.

Said I was full of spite, and I meant it. If that's the one last act of a rape victim, it would also be the one last cold comfort provided to them.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:02 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
CHRIS... what do you mean? That an insert could kill a man, or that the man would just get enraged and kill the woman?


The latter.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:04 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Well, if there was such a thing and it was known there was such a thing, males would change their behavior to account for it - using objects rather than body parts, using the threat of death - weapons/ superior numbers - to make the females remove such a thing. I wish it didn't seem to me that that's what would happen, but it seems obvious to me that that would be the result.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:10 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


So back to...

A Place Where Women Rule

Quote:

UMOJA, Kenya -- Seated cross-legged on tan sisal mats in the shade, Rebecca Lolosoli, matriarch of a village for women only, took the hand of a frightened 13-year-old girl. The child was expected to wed a man nearly three times her age, and Lolosoli told her she didn't have to.

The man was Lolosoli's brother, but that didn't matter. This is a patch of Africa where women rule.

"You are a small girl. He is an old man," said Lolosoli, who gives haven to young girls running from forced marriages. "Women don't have to put up with this nonsense anymore."

Ten years ago, a group of women established the village of Umoja, which means unity in Swahili, on an unwanted field of dry grasslands. The women said they had been raped and, as a result, abandoned by their husbands, who claimed they had shamed their community.

Stung by the treatment, Lolosoli, a charismatic and self-assured woman with a crown of puffy dark hair, decided no men would be allowed to live in their circular village of mud-and-dung huts.

....
What started as a group of homeless women looking for a place of their own became a successful and happy village. About three dozen women live here and run a cultural center and camping site for tourists visiting the adjacent Samburu National Reserve. Umoja has flourished, eventually attracting so many women seeking help that they even hired men to haul firewood, traditionally women's work.
....

But the women felt empowered with the revenue from the camping site and their cultural center, where they sell crafts. They were able to send their children to school for the first time, eat well and reject male demands for their daughters' circumcision and marriage.

They became so respected that troubled women, some beaten, some trying to get divorced, started showing up in this little village in northern Kenya. Lolosoli was even invited by the United Nations to attend a recent world conference on gender empowerment in New York.

"That's when the very ugly jealous behaviors started," Lolosoli said, adding that her life was threatened by local men right before her trip to New York. "They just said, frankly, that they wanted to kill me," Lolosoli said, laughing because she thought the idea sounded overly dramatic

.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/08/AR2005
070801775_2.html


Maybe there should be separation of the genders, for those who would like to live that way.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:11 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

using objects rather than body parts, using the threat of death - weapons/ superior numbers - to make the females remove such a thing. I wish it didn't seem to me that that's what would happen, but it seems obvious to me that that would be the result.


Would they? Or would the act itself just lose its appeal?

Organic rapes are crimes of passion, but using an object, to me that seems to be about shaming a person. It's two different things. You can't cut down on the object rape, but you probably would cut down on organic rape.

If only because, imagine a guy holding a woman at knife or gun point, ordering her to remove her protection. Says she says no, because maybe she's like me and thinks the rape that would come after that would be worse than death.

Three possibilities remain for the man: kill the woman and then be forced to give up because the woman would not remove the contraption, remove the contraption himself while she's dead, or give up. And the most likely option there is: he gives up, because what's the fun for him raping a dead chick? He doesn't get the power rush of watching her be afraid, or the power rush of forcing her to submit to him.

Once the girl has protection like that, all a would be rapist has left is a bluff.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:16 AM

CHRISISALL


Dissection time:
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Better than them getting away with it, since many of them already do that anyway.

Better the rapist turns even MORE violent & kills the victim?
Quote:



If that's the one last act of a rape victim, it would also be the one last cold comfort provided to them.

I'm so not getting what you mean in this sentence, Byte.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:19 AM

BYTEMITE


I'm saying, the rapist is very likely to kill the victim anyway. So if the rapist goes nuts at the contraption injuring him, and kills the woman, he still gets injured. More importantly, he can also probably be identified by the injury.

If the rape victim has to die, if it were me, I'd feel at least just a little satisfied that I got them back and more. As a side bonus, it also means for that victim that the rapist won't hurt anyone else. When there's nothing else, revenge can be very sweet indeed - it can even be worth dying.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:22 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Maybe there should be separation of the genders, for those who would like to live that way.


Hello,

Shouldn't everyone get to live the way they want to?

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:28 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I'm saying, the rapist is very likely to kill the victim anyway.

I don't know of any statistics that show that, in the US anyway.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:36 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I'm saying, the rapist is very likely to kill the victim anyway.

I don't know of any statistics that show that, in the US anyway.



Hello,

If everyone who was raped in our country was murdered, there'd be a lot fewer people.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:41 AM

BYTEMITE


I didn't say everyone, I said very likely. A lot of rape victims do succumb after the fact. And it's also not uncommon for a rapist to panic after the deed, and then kill the victim to try to eliminate a potential witness.

Look, they're already willing to rape, murder isn't all that far away in that situation. They already don't care about the victim or the victim's body by that point. I'm saying I want to give the victims a chance to really fuck up their attackers, since they're already risking death just by being a rape victim.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:45 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I didn't say everyone, I said very likely. A lot of rape victims do succumb after the fact. And it's also not uncommon for a rapist to panic after the deed, and then kill the victim to try to eliminate a potential witness.

Look, they're already willing to rape, murder isn't all that far away in that situation. They already don't care about the victim or the victim's body by that point.



Hello,

Most rape victims survive in this country. There are multitudes of walking wounded out there. Seas of them. Oceans.

--Anthony




Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:47 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I didn't say everyone, I said very likely. A lot of rape victims do succumb after the fact. And it's also not uncommon for a rapist to panic after the deed, and then kill the victim to try to eliminate a potential witness.

Look, they're already willing to rape, murder isn't all that far away in that situation. They already don't care about the victim or the victim's body by that point.



Hello,

Most rape victims survive in this country. There are multitudes of walking wounded out there. Seas of them. Oceans.

--Anthony




Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz



Understood, Anthony. 10% of 300 million is not most, but it is still 30 million, which is a lot.

In any case, how many of the survivors do you think, if they had the option that night to really hurt their attacker, they would have done it, even if it meant they might die?

Once again, I suspect many of them would.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:01 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Organic rapes are crimes of passion ..."

That's pretty well debunked. Rapes tend to be about power. Also, some men can't get aroused unless they inflict pain and humiliation, both are intrinsic to sex and can't be separated from it, sometimes even take place instead of it. In parlance, they 'get off' on it in place of sex.

Just to get back to punishment for a bit - FWIW the idea that men get sent to jail and then get back out after while doesn't work either, for the habitual rapist. In general, the best predictor of that behavior in that person is past behavior. I'd think after a second rape conviction, the sentence should be life imprisonment with no possibility of release.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:05 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Understood, Anthony. 10% of 300 million is not most, but it is still 30 million, which is a lot.

In any case, how many of the survivors do you think, if they had the option that night to really hurt their attacker, they would have done it, even if it meant they might die?

Once again, I suspect many of them would.



Hello,

In my experience, you'd do anything to escape, to get away, to get safe. The desire is one to survive and to do so intact if possible.

The desire to die comes later. When it's all over.

And yeah, if you can get safe by killing someone, that's good.

But causing pain in exchange for your life is not likely on your mind when trying to escape such an attack. The pain's only value at that point would be if it helps you get away.

In my experience.

But perhaps once so abused, the mind can be twisted so that revenge is more important than escape. And then maybe the next abuser... maybe you'd be willing to die just to hurt them.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:06 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Shouldn't everyone get to live the way they want to?"

Was that in opposition or support? Personally, I think if a community of women - or men - who prefer to live together exclusively were to be formed, I think it would be exactly that, everyone getting to live the way they want.

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