REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Gender and Violence and Blame

POSTED BY: MAGONSDAUGHTER
UPDATED: Sunday, January 20, 2013 15:56
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Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:09 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Rapes tend to be about power.


That's pretty much exactly what I said.

"Crime of passion" means it wasn't really done with malice aforethought. They just got the urge then acted on it. Saw an opportunity - a drunk girl, an girl all on her lonesome in a dark part of a park, the girl is in their house and they're too horny to stop - and they acted on it.

Honestly, I think stuff like date rape drugs should be prosecuted more than the other stuff, because it suggested they THOUGHT about it in advance. That's so psychopathic it even bothers me. But then again I have no problem doing away with just the general rapists, so I'm not sure how to give a harsher punishment to people who use roofies.

EDIT: I made an oops. No, I do not want to do away with general rape victims. o.0 Big oops.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:17 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Understood, Anthony. 10% of 300 million is not most, but it is still 30 million, which is a lot.

In any case, how many of the survivors do you think, if they had the option that night to really hurt their attacker, they would have done it, even if it meant they might die?

Once again, I suspect many of them would.



Hello,

In my experience, you'd do anything to escape, to get away, to get safe. The desire is one to survive and to do so intact if possible.

The desire to die comes later. When it's all over.

And yeah, if you can get safe by killing someone, that's good.

But causing pain in exchange for your life is not likely on your mind when trying to escape such an attack. The pain's only value at that point would be if it helps you get away.

In my experience.

But perhaps once so abused, the mind can be twisted so that revenge is more important than escape. And then maybe the next abuser... maybe you'd be willing to die just to hurt them.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz



I'd really only been molested once by a stranger, and I was about ready to kill them if they hadn't run off. Even calling it molestation is actually probably stretching it a little, because they just grabbed me, and it wasn't even a big deal because I never actually felt like I was in danger. But my basic attitude is always a generalized I don't care how much I get hurt so long as I hurt them too. So maybe whether you're willing to die depends on the attitude you have going in.

Actual rape? That's really bad. :( I'm sorry Anthony.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:17 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


OK, I get your point.

So those 6 men who mortally beat and raped the woman and severely beat her boyfriend - was it a combination of momentary extreme passion and opportunity, or a pre-assessed course of action (this kind of thing is OK) where the opportunity presented itself and there was no reason to not?

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:22 AM

BYTEMITE


Not familiar with that specific case, but... Off hand I'd say that gang bangers tend to feel a safety in numbers power trip kind of thing. So even with her boyfriend there, she and her boyfriend may have looked like easy pickings. It sounds to me like an attack of opportunity, and therefore also a crime of passion.

For it to have been planned in advance, there'd need to be like a revenge motive or something. Perhaps there was one, I don't know, not familiar with the case.

They could have even been planning revenge and attacking the boyfriend, and then catching his girlfriend all alone after that was just a bonus. In which case the attack on her boyfriend would have been planned, but the attack on the girlfriend was a crime of passion.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:22 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Shouldn't everyone get to live the way they want to?"

Was that in opposition or support? Personally, I think if a community of women - or men - who prefer to live together exclusively were to be formed, I think it would be exactly that, everyone getting to live the way they want.



Hello,

How can "Shouldn't everyone get to live the way they want to?" be perceived as opposition?

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:25 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

This gang rape thing reminds me of A Clockwork Orange, where a bunch of people go out with the intention of committing some rape and ultraviolence. They find a target of opportunity and engage in what they are likely to call a good bit of fun.

Which is really fucking sick, and speaks to a sickness amongst the population.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:26 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


It was ambiguous to me. I guess I'm tone deaf. OOPS. Sorry 'bout that.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:29 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Organic rapes are crimes of passion, but using an object, to me that seems to be about shaming a person. It's two different things. You can't cut down on the object rape, but you probably would cut down on organic rape.

The hell? Seriously, Byte, no. You are simply clueless on the subject of rape. You're all fear and fascination and no reality here.

Rape is a crime of passion? And only with objects is it gonna be about humiliating the victim? "Organic rape?" That's something you just made up off the top of your head, isn't it?

Rape is always about humiliation. It's always about control. It's about revenge. It's about rage. Sex is merely the means to an end in rape. Rape is, as you say, a fate worse than death and the rapist knows that as well as anyone. And no, rape is not a crime of passion. Rape is nothing that's gonna come about spontaneously 'cause the rapist got angry. Rape is something acted out in the mind of the rapist countless times before he/she finally enacts his/her fantasy.
Quote:

If only because, imagine a guy holding a woman at knife or gun point, ordering her to remove her protection. Says she says no, because maybe she's like me and thinks the rape that would come after that would be worse than death.
Good god, Byte, this guff is straight out of a trashy novel. Rape at gun point? The VAAAAAAST majority of rape does not involve any such weapon. Christ, most rapes are perpetrated by men known to the victim. Byte, you are seriously talking fantasyland here.
Quote:

Three possibilities remain for the man: kill the woman and then be forced to give up because the woman would not remove the contraption, remove the contraption himself while she's dead, or give up. And the most likely option there is: he gives up, because what's the fun for him raping a dead chick? He doesn't get the power rush of watching her be afraid, or the power rush of forcing her to submit to him.

Once the girl has protection like that, all a would be rapist has left is a bluff.

Pure, pulp fantasy garbage.

This insert thing is a grotesque fantasy worthy of John Ringo or Norman Mailer and would simply not work because the sex part of an act of rape, as I've said, is a means to an end. If vaginal intercourse were suddenly off the menu, then yeah, the guy would find some other way to "put the woman in her place" which was his intention all along.

People, please, don't talk about rape as if you know what the heck you're talking about unless you know what the heck you're talking about. It's insulting to those of us who have actually lived through the experience.

Jeez Marie, we have so far to go as a species when it comes to understanding ourselves.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:32 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Good god, Byte, this guff is straight out of a trashy novel. Rape at gun point? The VAAAAAAST majority of rape does not involve any such weapon. Christ, most rapes are perpetrated by men known to the victim. Byte, you are seriously talking fantasyland here.


HEY! I was ANSWERING a question asked to me by 1kiki. It's not my fault if the scenario she came up with seems so lacking to YOU.

It seems pretty serious business to me though, so step off!

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:33 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:



People, please, don't talk about rape as if you know what the heck you're talking about unless you know what the heck you're talking about. It's insulting to those of us who have actually lived through the experience.



FUUUUUUUUCK YOUUUUUUU

Fuck you for talking down to me, fuck you for feeling so high and mighty you get to decide what I've been through, FUCK YOU!

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:38 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Byte, the '6 men' story was the story of the Indian rape victim who just died. She and her boyfriend were on a bus when 6 men beat and raped her (on the bus), beat her boyfriend severely, stripped them both, then threw them off the bus onto the street, presumably to die, or ... whatever. It seemed to be of no consequence to those men if either lived or died.

I honestly can understand a man - especially a young man full of testosterone - being significantly driven by sexual urges. I can see one being at the point where he really truly would have a difficult time stopping. However, the line is one of whether or not it's consensual or not. Apparently, a lot of young males think it not being consensual is OK, as long as they feel sufficient urges.

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-11-17/local/me-7004_1_young-women

A survey of 245 female and 194 male students at Washington State University found "an alarming minority of students"--5% of women and 19% of men--do not believe that forcible rape on dates is definitely rape or that the male's behavior is definitely unacceptable, psychologist Gloria Fischer said.

They were students who believed that forcing a date to have sex might be acceptable under any one of nine circumstances, including if the man spent a lot of money on the woman, if she led him on, if she had sex with other men, if she was intoxicated or if she excited him, Fischer said.


http://www.saidit.org/archives/june00/oneway.html

In a survey of high school students, 56% of the girls and 76% of the boys believed forced sex was acceptable under some circumstances.
A survey of 11-to-14 year-olds found:

* 51% of the boys and 41% of the girls said forced sex was acceptable if the boy, “spent a lot of money” on the girl;
* 31% of the boys and 32% of the girls said it was acceptable for a man to rape a woman with past sexual experience;
* 87% of boys and 79% of girls said sexual assault was acceptable if the man and the woman were married;
* 65% of the boys and 47% of the girls said it was acceptable for a boy to rape a girl if they had been dating for more than six months.

In a survey of male college students:
* 35% anonymously admitted that, under certain circumstances, they would commit rape if they believed they could get away with it.
* One in 12 admitted to committing acts that met the legal definitions of rape, and 84% of men who committed rape did not label it as rape.


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Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:38 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

You are simply clueless on the subject of rape.


Hello,

Well if so, thank God. And I don't think only rape victims are entitled to opinions.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:43 AM

BYTEMITE


1kiki: Ah, I'm sorry. I only knew the story from India about the one woman who was leaving a bar and was attacked. It appears there are multiple stories going on out there.

I suppose I thought it was the woman leaving the bar who had died at the hospital.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:47 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

I'm sorry Anthony.


Hello,

I was able to escape the worst of it, Byte.

There are people who weren't. And there are people who weren't over and over and over again. Once you've been in that kind of situation, it's like you have a sense for others who've been there. You find them and if you're lucky you can talk to them and share and help each other move forward.

I disagree with some commentators here that rape is a fate worse than death. I agree it can feel that way at the time and for a long time after. People can survive it and make themselves feel whole again, but it's like recovering from any serious injury requiring difficult rehabilitation.

The hard things to understand are that it's not your fault, you still have value, you aren't powerless, and it's okay to trust people again. If you can get those things back as a part of yourself, you can live a happy and fulfilling life. Easier said than done.

In my experience.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:53 AM

BYTEMITE


I'm still sorry Anthony. :(

Even just saying that I'm glad you're doing better feels like such a cop out in the face of that. I'm so sorry.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:53 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

You are simply clueless on the subject of rape.


Hello,

Well if so, thank God. And I don't think only rape victims are entitled to opinions.

Neither do I. There's a lot of room for opinion before you get to the pornographic nonsense about inserts and "organic rape."

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:54 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Hey seriously - you are all valuable people here. It hurts to see one so hurt and angry, especially when we're all doing our best to discuss a difficult topic through a very imperfect medium. I know we can't say too many nice things to you or about you Byte b/c it sets your radar off, but my wish for you is you become calm and relaxed soon. OK?

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:55 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

You are simply clueless on the subject of rape.


Hello,

Well if so, thank God. And I don't think only rape victims are entitled to opinions.

Neither do I. There's a lot of room for opinion before you get to the pornographic nonsense about inserts and "organic rape."

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.



Do I stroke myself in the mirror with my fear HK? That kind of pornographic?

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:59 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


HKC - this seems to be a very important topic for you. I'm on and off the board really erratically so I may have missed something most already know. And I really am not looking for an explanation for things I'm clueless about. I just want to say I think your voice is a valuable one that I really want to hear. That's all.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 12:00 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:



People, please, don't talk about rape as if you know what the heck you're talking about unless you know what the heck you're talking about. It's insulting to those of us who have actually lived through the experience.



FUUUUUUUUCK YOUUUUUUU

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, Byte. Was kinda the point.

I'm not talking down to you. You yourself admit to talking about stuff you don't know anything about sometimes. This is just one of those times. AND it's a subject that some folks are better informed on than you are. And, as Anthony pointed out, that's actually good news.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 12:00 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Cavalier,

I just wanted to be sure you knew that these inserts are not theoretical. They were invented and manufactured.

I didn't want you to think Byte was making it up in some fevered fantasy.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 12:05 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:

I honestly can understand a man - especially a young man full of testosterone - being significantly driven by sexual urges. I can see one being at the point where he really truly would have a difficult time stopping.

Balderdash. No one and I mean NO ONE was a hornier teen & 20-something than I was, and if my partner said so much as "Oh, I forgot I have a test to study for!" that was it; game over. If it's not 100% consensual, it's a turn off. And if it's NOT, then baby, you are with the wrong guy.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 12:05 PM

BYTEMITE


Yeah, and I didn't make up that fucking night at the fucking train station EITHER HK. Even if it didn't end as bad as it ends for some women. Or for some men, if you're one of those who has suffered from this.

In short, that was still uncalled for! AND I AM HELLA PISSED at you. You tell me to shut up! You're no better than the people who did that to you, and that guy who did that to me!

SO FUCK YOU!

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 12:18 PM

HKCAVALIER


Hey Byte,

I never told you to shut up. You seem to hear "shut up" a lot more often than anyone actually tells you to shut up.

I did not tell you to shut up. I told you--ACTUALLY, I asked EVERYONE, not just you, because several folk were speculating on the effects of a vaginally incertd weapon (VIW)--to please not talk about shit they don't know about as if they did. It was a plea for backing away from wild speculation about prosthetic dentata devices and scenarioizing about what's better, being raped or cutting the guy's dick off and getting killed for it and what would be more satisfying in the end. That level of absurd grandstanding and morbid fantasization is something I expect from a guy like Wulfenstar. Not from anyone in this discussion.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 12:22 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
You're no better than the people who did that to you, and that guy who did that to me!


Whoah whoah whoah, this runaway train needs a dead man switch!

Deep breaths, people. We're all part of the same crew on this boat.
K?

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 12:25 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

ACTUALLY, I asked EVERYONE, not just you, because several folk were speculating on the effects of a vaginally incertd weapon (VIW)--to please not talk about shit they don't know about as if they did.


Oh? You clearly think I don't know what I'm talking about, and you clearly think I shouldn't talk about shit I don't know about.

WHAT THE FUCK ELSE DOES THAT MEAN BUT SHUT UP?

Yes, DEAR, I'll shut up and get back in the KITCHEN! Oh yes, I'll stop talking about my silly grandstanding morbid fascination because I don't know ANYTHING about it. It's my very own kind of pornography, you know!

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 12:29 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Well, this thread looks unpleasant.... still I have stuff to add and imma do so.

Imma clip a post from another thread cause I think it may be MORE relevant here.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53674
Quote:

Okay, this is gonna drift from topic, and might run long, but imma expound at length about it cause it revolves around a recent rethinking which I believe answers the question of why the abused kid survival rate is so drastically skewed in regards to gender...

See, humans are biologically hardwired with certain predispositions, and that for you Anthony, a lot of them are survival-related, some perhaps outdated by our society, and some most certainly not, which becomes problematic, sure.

What drives a lot of aberrant behavior in childhood is IMHO the mixed messages that children recieve when what they are being "taught", intentionally or otherwise, comes into conflict with those natural impulses - for example it is the NATURE of humans to share and cooperate, but when one is TAUGHT to be selfish and exploit/abuse/mislead others, it creates all kind of mental static that can manifest as "behavioral problems"... first of this, or usually the first clash, is being taught to lie.

Children have both an inherent honesty, and do *NOT* have the "filters" we have on worldview cause they've not developed them - they actually see the sick homeless guy who never makes it past your consciousness, they see the "wrong" in situations we've long trained ourselves to accept as a matter of course, another place trying to reconcile opposing values does them harm - for the first person a child is taught to lie to, is themself.

The human subconscious has defenses against that, whether they be intentional or not I couldn't say, but by default nature usually wins that contest, proof of that lies in how any sufficient deception will not hold up over time, with extraordinarily rare exceptions they *will* give themselves away no matter how skilled they are - it takes an amazing amount of abuse and conditioning to make a human being inherently dishonest, and the resultant psychological damage usually leaves them ineffective at it.

Anyhows, for some, meditation is kind of like tuning in to listen to those impulses suppressed by social conditioning, seeking the voice of the lost and broken child within - or reaching deeper, and finding something.... darker.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_%28psychology%29
We all have the beast within, it's directly related to the HPA axis of the brain and the fight/freeze/flight instinct, those in tune with it can actually USE this to their advantage, and some military training/conditioning is a kind of halfassed, assbackwards attempt to teach this.


Which, brings me to why the gender gap in abuse survival.
See, the earlier you start screwing up a kids brain, the harder it becomes to fix, and if the damage gets done during critical developmental periods, barring early intervention it's all but permanent.
Beyond that, early damage is the hardest also cause it's festered and begun to calcify, become part of the personality itself, and that's a nightmare to deal with when it happens cause you're talking about the very foundation of WHO THEY ARE...
(And yes, I am bloody well aware this is why I will NEVER voluntarily disarm, ever.)

Which brings up gender roles and concepts in relation to when and how the damage is done, you see.
Boys we screw up right off the bat, teach them violence, might-makes-right, emotional suppression, cut them off from coping skills, discourage cooperation and encourage an often ruthless competitive streak which DOES have its Shadow counterpart down there as a secondary drive related to survival OUTSIDE of a group setting - it's not a primary drive, but if you suppress the primary drives, there are secondaries which take over, also a source of mental static and confusion with emotional overtones which causes acting out, a coping mechanism shut down by social pressure as soon as it even forms.

Factually, you do NOT "toughen up" kid by mistreating them, but by treating them with mercy and kindness - those who have NOT been mistreated have more coping skills and tools, and are far less likely to resort to violence, but of course self-perpetuating social myths are hard to break when the victims of them sell them down the line in the cycle of abuse.

Conversely, we don't generally jump right into crushing the personhood of girls, they're EXPECTED to have emotional outbursts, to feel, to cooperate, to care - we ALLOW them to be who they are.
Now there's the rare exception, particularly some pyscho tigermom wannabe shoving their girl at talent contests and whatnot, but overall we don't get into REALLY trashing the humanity of girls till we start teaching them greed, jealousy and materialism, which usually comes AFTER the critical developmental stages.

The difference here is legion - picture a slab of concrete.
Now, picture that concrete with some rebar tacked onto the outside - not so hard to remove, yes?
Now, picture that concrete with the rebar having been in there when it was poured - try getting THAT out, ehe ?
http://www.childtrauma.org/index.php/articles/articles-for-professiona
ls

Bunch of stuff here, heavy reading and you'll need a PDF reader, but it forms the original background for what we're now calling the Neurosequential Model.
http://www.childtrauma.org/index.php/articles/cta-neurosequential-mode
l


Basically, the earlier you screw em up, the worse off they are, and the harder it is to fix.
But if they have passed most of the critical development periods and have a more solid personhood in place already they have some level of defense and the mistreatment is not internalized, nor fully integrated.
And THAT, is what has been skewing abuse survival rates by gender, I do believe.


Also, in respect to the topic, it may explain gender vs violence in american society, and imma roll the rest into another post.

-Frem

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 12:41 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Additional Points.

1. Toxic effect of a society poisoned by a ludicrously patriarchal and puritannical religion.

2. Push of expected gender "roles".

3. Imbalance of coping mechanisms which reduce potential violence, by gender, in regard to the information related above.


Now, that said, overall it does appear that fewer women than men choose violence as a problem solving manner, HOWEVER, those who do are in my experience decidedly more vicious and potentially more lethal, not so much due to it being "unexpected" from them, which I consider not much more than a halfassed excuse, but simply cause they happen to be damned good at it, chillingly so.

Echo is a case in point, coming from a fundamentalist family whos punishment for even the simplest transgression bordered on outright flogging, and she's way messed up because of it, violent in nature with a pain tolerance which makes stopping her when she goes spare very problematic.
Of course that's the *least* of her issues about it.

I suppose the question here is just how much is genetic/biological impulse, versus how much is expected social roles - compounded by the behavioral changes inspired by being psychologically impacted much later in the developmental cycle, which is a point of focus I think we've badly overlooked.

It does lead me to wonder, IF we held out on a male child and did NOT start into crushing their personhood immediately, how great would the personality deviation be ?

Just some thoughts.

-F

Oh, not Echo from Dollhouse, although that's where she cribbed the callsign from, but one of the folks I am working with on their own issues at this time.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 5:15 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

Yeah, and I didn't make up that fucking night at the fucking train station EITHER HK. Even if it didn't end as bad as it ends for some women..
Huh?

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 5:54 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
HKC - this seems to be a very important topic for you. I'm on and off the board really erratically so I may have missed something most already know. And I really am not looking for an explanation for things I'm clueless about. I just want to say I think your voice is a valuable one that I really want to hear. That's all.

Hey kiki,

Thanks for that. I didn't mean to suggest that only rape survivors should be allowed to talk about rape. That's absolutely not how I feel. And, yeah, that's an undeservedly prevalent notion: only rape survivors getta talk about rape, only holocaust survivors getta talk about the holocaust, etc. I see that that would be an easy inference to make from what I said, but I don't believe it's necessary to experience a thing to be knowledgeable about that thing. Everyone in the human family gets to talk about our family issues and this stuff rises to that level for me. It's just that Byte's wild fantasies about the nature of rape and the motives of the rapist were clearly not anything she'd learned from credible sources or anything she'd actually experienced (sorry for the presumption but it did seem pretty damn clear to me) and I felt it was pretty deeply insulting for her to go on speculating on a level that felt, to me, like fanfic.

I meant to say, Hey, some folks have actually lived through this crap and you're making a mockery of it here.

I dunno. I prolly could have just kept my peace, but as you note above, this is a subject that I feel very strongly about and I have heard so much misinformation and pure fantasy on the subject over the years that it's made me...sensative, shall we say, on the subject.


I'm just getting so utterly sick of people thinking that problems like rape or mass murder begin and end with the actual rape or murder, so if we can find some way to "prevent" these eventualities alone--booby trap the vagina or station armed guards on the playground--then the problem will be solved. Makes me sick and, yeah, infuriates me.

Anyway, back to the original subject of the thread: serial killers, mass murderers and rapists all have something in common psychologically. They all rehearse and fantasize their crimes well in advance, sometimes for years, before actually carrying them out. Any man who rapes has wanted to rape for a very long time before he goes through with it, finally. Same with serial killers and child molesters. There's got to be a reason they have these fantasies. These are not common fantasies. Sure, someone may flippantly imagine "going postal" but they're not gonna rehearse it in their minds and plan for contingencies as the real criminals do. And a man may have a fleeting fantasy of violent sex without ever coming near to the act in reality. Something has to be bothering the would-be serial killer, mass murderer or rapist for a LONG ASS TIME for their rage to build to the point when they take action. And there's something very wrong with our culture and our humanity that no one in these (mostly) men's lives is there to help them before they take such extreme action.

I believe that if our culture were maybe just a little more relational, if conscious connection between people were just a little closer to the norm, instead of this perminent anonymity we see in the modern urban and cybernetic environments, we could prevent a lot of this kind of violence in the world. I believe the tipping point isn't really all that far away, but at the same time, if our culture refused to take the smallest step in that direction, we're screwed. And yes, it starts with treating children with respect as fellow human beings and recognizing abuse for what it is.

One place to start with men, as I've suggested before, is crying. If we as a culture forbade one or the other sex to shit or piss or to sweat, we could all see how that would lead to physical and probably psychological problems (as such privations have in past eras). But we think nothing of virtually shutting down the male's lacrimal glands. For vast sections of the male population, world-wide, crying is simply not something their bodies do anymore.

In my experience with abusers and abuse survivors, I've seen again and again a link between the abusers' inability to cry or feel and their experience of relief when they've hurt others or made them cry. It's cathartic, but it shouldn't be. And I'm thinking that it wouldn't be, if men were never forbidden to feel and to cry.

Doesn't solve anything. It's just a theory. But it's what I got.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 9:51 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

ACTUALLY, I asked EVERYONE, not just you, because several folk were speculating on the effects of a vaginally incertd weapon (VIW)--to please not talk about shit they don't know about as if they did.


Oh? You clearly think I don't know what I'm talking about, and you clearly think I shouldn't talk about shit I don't know about.

WHAT THE FUCK ELSE DOES THAT MEAN BUT SHUT UP?

Yes, DEAR, I'll shut up and get back in the KITCHEN! Oh yes, I'll stop talking about my silly grandstanding morbid fascination because I don't know ANYTHING about it. It's my very own kind of pornography, you know!

No, Byte, as I said in the comments you JUST quoted: I don't want you to talk about it "AS IF" you know what you're talking about when you don't. There are lots of ways to talk about something you're not an authority on, without pretending that you are.

Byte, think. After all these years of you accusing me of wanting you to shut up, don't you think that if it were remotely true I would have admitted it by now??? That your constant accusations would have pushed me to blurt, "Oh my god, would you please shut up!" or something? Or somebody besides you would have accused me of wanting you to shut up?

And besides, isn't telling someone to shut up on the internet just about the most ineffectual thing a person could possibly do? Do you seriously think I'm that petty and foolish?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:11 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Women are to blame for not loving their men/boys, thus driving them insane towards violence.

Dick Cheney's wife and spawn are both lesbians.

I rest my case.


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Monday, December 31, 2012 3:53 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Please Disregard this message.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 31, 2012 4:00 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Please Disregard this message.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 31, 2012 6:47 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

Anyway, back to the original subject of the thread: serial killers, mass murderers and rapists all have something in common psychologically. They all rehearse and fantasize their crimes well in advance, sometimes for years, before actually carrying them out. Any man who rapes has wanted to rape for a very long time before he goes through with it, finally. Same with serial killers and child molesters. There's got to be a reason they have these fantasies.
Violent TV shows, movies and video games, along with a predisposition to conflate violence with sex, or violence with pleasure? Seems to be that this violent visualizing has a lot of corporate help.

One of the things that bothers me is that alternate resolution.... negotiation, compromise, even walking away... are never modeled anywhere in the media, or if they are it's only as a prelude to splattery righteous bloodbath.

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Monday, December 31, 2012 8:09 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

We all watch and enjoy violent entertainment. I'm guessing we're not all violent people.

I don't think it's Hollywood's fault. Nor the game developers.

I heard this sort of thing back in the day, with Dungeons and Dragons. Some D&D players became violent, so D&D was set to blame. They even made a Tom Hanks movie about it, if memory serves.

I didn't think much of it at the time, and still don't.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 31, 2012 9:03 AM

HKCAVALIER


Hey Signy,

I don't think it's at all that simple. There is a use and a misuse of violent stories. Violent stories have been needed since we first sat around a fire and tried to move people. The old Punch and Judy Show was grotesquely violent, but it did not make its audience into murderers.

There is catharsis. Serial killers, mass murderers and rapists don't seem to have access to catharsis unless they act out. For some reason the story is never enough for such people and they have to act to achieve catharsis. Abusers cannot feel certain feelings so they force those feelings onto others. The feeling needs to be expressed one way or another, or so it seems. Their problem is that they have somehow radically lost access to their inner lives.

This is not the norm. But Hollywood violence is the norm. This part of culture I don't see as a chicken and egg situation. The violent acting out comes first and art follows it up with a dream of understanding. Every work of art, from Shakespeare to T.J. Hooker to Jersey Shore is trying to make meaning out of chaos, to create a moral order, to solve basic problems in survival vicariously. It's why we animals bother to make art and it's why we animals feel compelled to take it in. There's something there, in the story, that compels us. But for the serial murderers, mass murders and rapists, art simply cannot take the place of action. They must make their nightmares real for some reason, while the rest of us are content with waking up and with shuddering and with the gratitude that it was all just a dream.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, December 31, 2012 9:41 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

ACTUALLY, I asked EVERYONE, not just you, because several folk were speculating on the effects of a vaginally incertd weapon (VIW)--to please not talk about shit they don't know about as if they did.


Oh? You clearly think I don't know what I'm talking about, and you clearly think I shouldn't talk about shit I don't know about.

WHAT THE FUCK ELSE DOES THAT MEAN BUT SHUT UP?

Yes, DEAR, I'll shut up and get back in the KITCHEN! Oh yes, I'll stop talking about my silly grandstanding morbid fascination because I don't know ANYTHING about it. It's my very own kind of pornography, you know!

No, Byte, as I said in the comments you JUST quoted: I don't want you to talk about it "AS IF" you know what you're talking about when you don't. There are lots of ways to talk about something you're not an authority on, without pretending that you are.

Byte, think. After all these years of you accusing me of wanting you to shut up, don't you think that if it were remotely true I would have admitted it by now??? That your constant accusations would have pushed me to blurt, "Oh my god, would you please shut up!" or something? Or somebody besides you would have accused me of wanting you to shut up?

And besides, isn't telling someone to shut up on the internet just about the most ineffectual thing a person could possibly do? Do you seriously think I'm that petty and foolish?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.



I think you don't know me, and I think you have no excuse dismissing my experience on the basis of what you've read with all your vaunted "expertise" that I don't have.

I hope you don't council people who have had experiences with sexual assault, because so far you're not being all that sensitive and understanding towards what they went through.

Perhaps the next one who walks in here, tell them that didn't happen to them and they're lying and full of shit and that they have no valid input on the issue and that they make a mockery of real victims. That's like a cherry on top of the sundae.

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Monday, December 31, 2012 10:23 AM

HKCAVALIER


WTF, Byte?

Why do you give me so much gorram power over you? For fuck's sake, I'm just a guy on the internet. I think I know some things, but I might be totally full of shit and you might be one person who knows it. You do realize that I can't have any power that you don't willingly give to me, right? Why give me such power, Byte? Really, why?

I experienced what you were saying about the whole incert thing as utterly grotesque and pure, misanthropic fiction. But that's my opinion. It's a strong opinion and one that gets all up in your grill, but it still just feedback from a stranger, take what you need and leave the rest.

Either what I have to say, however unflattering it is to you, has meaning to you, has some kernal of truth that you're wrestling with, or I am full of shit and don't know what the fuck I am talking about. Only you can say which it is. Why not pick one and either engage me in the discussion on rape and violence or write me off?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, December 31, 2012 10:59 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Either what I have to say, however unflattering it is to you, has meaning to you, has some kernal of truth that you're wrestling with


So denial is it? More denial? More didn't happen, I'm lying, I don't know what I'm talking about.

Has it occurred to you we might both have valid things to say? But no, you're right, I'm wrong, I don't know anything. My experience is invalid because you say so.

I have no interest in talking to you about this, or anything, if you won't even give me the credit of considering that my experiences might be real. Plenty other people for us both to talk to, and our interactions soured a long time ago. Scratch both our names from the note pad and lets move on.

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Monday, December 31, 2012 11:36 AM

HKCAVALIER


I don't think you're lying. Where did you get that idea? And my entire premise for talking to you and continuing to talk to you after all these years is that, of course, we both have something to say; that your opinion is valid. People whose opinions I do not value I do not talk to. Sometimes, certain things you say strike me as ill founded, or maybe thoughtless, even unkind (particularly toward yourself), but that never invalidates YOU. When two people disagree, there is more of an either/or at least structurally, but still, both people hold their own truths and nothing can change that.

I think you and I have a kind of Star Trek matter/anti-matter thing going on here. You are for yourself living proof that the evil in human beings comes from within, that despite love and kindness being given, people find it in themselves to do the worst possible things and that is our human nature in a nutshell (I am sorry if that is an unjust assessment of how you think, but it's the best approximation I have pending further inquiry). Even I can accept that there is some truth in that, but I am committed to the idea that it is not at all the whole story.

I, on the other hand, am a person who was violated and taught the most vile lies about humanity from the cradle and have found a way to heal in spite of all that and find the essential goodness in human beings. That is also a truth, a part of "the" truth, but I can acknowledge, much as it pains me, that that is not the whole story either.

But you and I are crusaders for our views of the world. We both have hard-won truths to share with this board, however incompatible our respective visions of the human story may be. You upset me and I upset you. But I'd be a total asshole if I didn't acknowledge that I have learned from our interactions over the years.

Strike me off your list if you must. It has occurred to me to do as much with you, but I always come back to my innate sense of kinship with you and my desire to somehow bridge our differences--without denying them--and find our common truth in all this.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, December 31, 2012 1:54 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

If you're having an open discussion about a topic, and someone becomes so offended that they feel the need to leave, then something has gone wrong.

I regret this.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 31, 2012 2:21 PM

HKCAVALIER


Hey Anthony,

Could you say more? To my mind whether one stays or leaves is deeply personal. Short of outright abusive language, do you think there's a way we can drive each other off that we as the "drivers" must take into account and curb?

Yes, there's the issue of "pushing people's buttons," but I gotta say I try to err on the side of allowing myself to risk pushing buttons, rather than hiding my thoughts to avoid a conflict. I believe in order to respect others, I must always remember that it is only a risk and not a mechanistic certainty that I'm gonna push people's buttons--to act as if it were a "fact" is to objectify the other person, in my opinion.

There have been plenty of times in my life when I've fretted that I was gonna push someone's buttons only to discover that I underestimated them. And I've learned that attempting to avoid button pushing generally leads to passive aggressive acting out. I don't find it possible, ultimately, to avoid conflict in an ongoing relationship--all we ever do is avoid TAKING RESPONSABILITY for the conflict that exists no matter how we handle it. Better to take responsability, acknowledge the conflict, to be plain and say what I mean and let us collectively come to a resolution if at all possible.

I'm sorry if this is a threadjack. For me it speaks directly to the issue of "blame" and personal boundaries that define what is violent/a violation and what is not/neutral.

Any thoughts?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, December 31, 2012 4:06 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I think by dismissing Byte as having fantasyland thinking, pain was inflicted on her.

And I think that's not what we wanted to do here.

So this thread became a facet of the problem it was discussing.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, December 31, 2012 5:31 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I'm glad this thread didn't die while I was away.

Just some general responses to some of the conversation -


I can't abide victim blaming. No one deserves or is responsible for violence being inflicted upon them, even though they may have made poor choices which may have resulted in being in the wrong place or with the wrong person.

The long winded discussions around protection through strength or martial arts are pretty immaterial as far as I am concerned, especially when it comes to family violence. The violence I experienced impacted on me psychologically, so I couldn't make good decisions, couldn't demand to be treated how I thought I should be. Because victim blaming is so prevalent in our society, I felt responsible for the violence, and I felt ashamed for putting up with it, for allowing it to happen. I was so shamed I hid it from most people, even loved ones, long after the relationship was over, because of responses like Hero's. It took me a long time to be able to talk about it and not feel dirty and sullied, or weak and pathetic, when I was never any of those things.

My then partner used violence and put downs and humiliation because he felt powerless and he hated feeling that I might have had any power over him. He had very sexist views in general which were not obvious when we met (except in hindsight) but basically his needs and wants were always more important than mine. When I think back on it, I was barely human to him, just an accessary, someone to make him feel better, meet his needs.

It was hard to leave because I had been told for so long that I was worthless and unlovable and mad that I had started to believe it.

All these things are features of a violent relationship, so its not just about standing up for yourself physically. There are many ways that power can be abused in a relationship that make it hard to leave.

http://www.dvhelppenrithregion.nsw.gov.au/index.php?option=com_content
&view=article&id=4&Itemid=107


The cycle of violence in domestic abuse

Domestic abuse falls into a common pattern, or cycle of violence:

Cycle of violenceAbuse – Your abusive partner lashes out with aggressive, belittling, or violent behavior. The abuse is a power play designed to show you "who is boss."
Guilt – After abusing you, your partner feels guilt, but not over what he's done. He’s more worried about the possibility of being caught and facing consequences for his abusive behavior.
Excuses – Your abuser rationalizes what he or she has done. The person may come up with a string of excuses or blame you for the abusive behavior—anything to avoid taking responsibility.
"Normal" behavior — The abuser does everything he can to regain control and keep the victim in the relationship. He may act as if nothing has happened, or he may turn on the charm. This peaceful honeymoon phase may give the victim hope that the abuser has really changed this time.
Fantasy and planning – Your abuser begins to fantasize about abusing you again. He spends a lot of time thinking about what you’ve done wrong and how he'll make you pay. Then he makes a plan for turning the fantasy of abuse into reality.
Set-up – Your abuser sets you up and puts his plan in motion, creating a situation where he can justify abusing you.


Power can be abused by any gender in a relationship, but I firmly believe males use physical violence more often than women do.

Men and women are not the same. We have different biologies with different purposes, and although both genders are capable of using violence/physical aggression, men do so more often. I know some of you will be offended by that, but statistically, biologically its just there.

A rape insert seems to me to be akin to pre rape. It just kind of boggles my mind. Sexual assault does not have to include penetration, and one will be a victim of sexual violence even if you have a rape device and the rapist loses his penis. I think this whole scenario is very strange.

As Cav points out, most rapists are known by their victims.

I am not sure what is going on in India. Those pack rapes seem very common. Horrific.

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Monday, December 31, 2012 10:31 PM

HKCAVALIER


But Anthony,

In our society there is a ton of fantasyland when it comes to discussions of rape. There's a huge disconnect between what happens in reality and what people tend to imagine happens. In the public imagination rape is this thing that happens to careless women walking home alone in low cut dresses when some burley oversexed stranger jumps out from behind a hedge and holds a knife to her throat. That was the kind of rape Byte seemed to be discussing and it's presumably the kind of rape a vaginal contraption would be intended to prevent.

But stranger rape accounts for only 30% of reported rapes and with less than 40 percent of rapes actually reported it's safe to assume that stranger rape is gonna account for a lot more of the actually reported rapes than acquaintance rape is. So, stranger rape probably accounts for a lot fewer than 30% of actual rapes. And the vast majority of rapes happen indoors, in homes, not always the victim's but generally known to the victim. Less than 10% happen on the street.

All that stuff about rape at gun point or knife point and "what's the fun for him raping a dead chick?" Byte was writing bears little or no resemblance to what actually goes on in the great majority of cases. And I found it to be a supremely calous way of talking about the subject. So I said fantasyland because it is the unjustly prevalent fantasy of what rape is, and a cruel mockery of what the majority of actual victims experience.

I understand that that is not a very sensative way of putting it, but Byte was talking so glibly about "dead chicks" and such that it hardly seemed like she was treating it as a serious discussion. It came across as if she was using the topic as an outlet for her misanthropic imagination. So I meant to say, For cryin' out loud, please, take this discussion more seriously than that!!! "Don't talk about rape as if you know what the heck you're talking about unless you know what the heck you're talking about."

I'm sorry, Anthony, Byte's discussion of rape was offensive to me. I'm not actually used to being offended and I didn't react as wisely or circumspectly as I generally do. It might have been wiser for me to inquire: "Do you have any idea how unrealistic these rape scenarios are? Rape, in the vast majority of cases, is a betrayal of trust and a violation of existing intimacies between people. Etc." but it would not have expressed my feelings on the matter. I was disgusted by what I was reading, and as the thread wore on it only got worse, so I felt the need to speak up.

I'm not sure right now how to take your suggestion that my being rude to Byte rose to the level of gendered abuse and blaming of the victim. I want to repudiate it, but I'll sit with it for now. If you would care to say more on this subject I will listen, but if not, I'm okay with that as well. Thanks for listening.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, January 1, 2013 6:40 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


TONY- BYTE "goes off" on people as if she were the only one deserving of respect. And if people try to make nice to her over HER outburst, she gets self-contradictory No! I want THIS!.... No, I DON'T want THIS!. IMHO dealing with Byte while she is in one of those moods is counterproductive, and defending her bad behavior is bad for her too. But that's just me; your mileage may vary.

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Tuesday, January 1, 2013 6:46 AM

BYTEMITE


You know, continuing to talk about me when we no longer want to talk to each other is pretty bullshit. I'm trying to honor my side of the deal, but it's like you're trying to provoke me.

Okay, 1) I never once said that I think that stranger danger is the biggest threat in terms of rape. I had both a friend and a brother who had stuff happen to them from close relatives, and so just with that example that already outnumbers the one case I can think of to the contrary.

2) Stranger Danger, however, is NOT "complete fantasy." The man who sexually assaulted me was not the big strong guy with a weapon stereotype, apart from being black, but he was small, old, not very strong. But I did not know the man, he just grabbed me after I answered some questions about the train schedule.

And you offend people who that has actually happened to by dismissing it. So, goddamn you, stop talking about "actual victims" like nothing ever once happened to me and I don't know what it's like. Like it's "misanthropic fantasyland." Fuck that.

3) When I said "dead chicks" it was in the sense of trying to get into the mind of what a rapist would think in that situation. I was saying what they would say, to illustrate the point of how I think that scenario would go.

4) YOUR attitude towards ME was offensive, and you're still holding your hands out going, What'd I do? What'd I do? Byte didn't know what she was talking about so I told her to shut up, what's wrong with that?

And at this point, I no longer care about you, or whether you believe me or not, but it is enraging me that you think you can talk about me after all this. In short, don't you fucking dare.

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Tuesday, January 1, 2013 6:56 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


So, where WERE we in this thread????


HKCAV, CHRIS, AND TONY IIRC you all defended violent games and movies as "good clean fun". They don't get a "pass" from me because you think they're useful for catharsis and that they don't increase violent crime.

If I want to hit a perfect tennis stroke, or slalom with great form, ONE of the training techniques is to watch it done properly over and over. Your minds encodes the motion, the activity, and (ultimately) acceptance of the activity by repeated viewing. Seeing victims fall in front of you in first-person shooter games, or stealing cars and raping women (grand theft auto) has got to be unhealthy for ANY growing brain. And who are these games marketed to, mainly? Teenage males.

As I heard it, the current armed forces commanders are all happy about first-person shooter games because it fits in so nicely with drone piloting and advanced weaponry.

This may be one of those gender dividing lines... males, on the average, may want to activate their flight-flight hormones. Females may find such activation dangerous. It would be interesting to see by gender who purchases these games and the average levels of violence between purchasers and non-purchasers and between heavy users and non-users.

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Tuesday, January 1, 2013 6:59 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
TONY- BYTE "goes off" on people as if she were the only one deserving of respect. And if people try to make nice to her over HER outburst, she gets self-contradictory No! I want THIS!.... No, I DON'T want THIS!. IMHO dealing with Byte while she is in one of those moods is counterproductive, and defending her bad behavior is bad for her too. But that's just me; your mileage may vary.



I agree with Sig, Anthony. Defending me is a pointless endeavor. It only makes things worse for me, and whoever is trying to defend me. I've given up on expecting respect. I can't even expect to convince people that my experiences happened.

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