REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The Hitler gun control lie

POSTED BY: CANTTAKESKY
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 5, 2022 13:52
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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 5:17 PM

CANTTAKESKY


http://www.salon.com/2013/01/11/stop_talking_about_hitler/

Huh. Now I have to go look into this.

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 6:00 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Hitler + Obama = 2 jews








150,000 jews ran Nazi Germany
youtube.com/watch?v=TIMikjs36NM
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/obamajews.html




Hitler disarmed Germany by staging false flag sniper attacks at German radio stations by shooting patsy prisoners dressed as Polish soldiers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Himmler
http://www.oocities.org/skull_and_bones_nazis/
https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/


Smooth-talking serial killer Ted Bundy was employed as a security guard and dressed as a cop to kidnap and murder dozens of women then dug up their rotted corpses to have sex with them, and was appointed to the Seattle Crime Prevention Advisory Committee by Washington's Republican Governor Dan Evans.











Quote:

"I'm Barack Obama, the Marxist professor. I spent the last two years of high school in a daze. I drank beer heavily, and tried drugs enthusiastically. Look I uh, when I was a kid , I inhaled, frequently. that was uh, that was the point. Pot helped, and booze. A little blow when you could afford it. Junkie, pothead, that's where I was headed. Now you know that guy ain't shit. Sorry ass motherfuckers got nothin on me, nothin. Shit's gettin way too complicated for me. There are white folks, then there are ignorant motherfuckers like you. You can put lipstick on a pig. You ain't my bitch nigger, buy your own damn fries. That's just how white folks will do ya."
-Barack Hussein Obama Soetoro, Dreams From My Father MP3
http://www.archive.org/details/ObamaInauguralMashup/




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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 7:46 PM

JONGSSTRAW



PN's picture is that of an SS Einsatzgruppen killing operation that took place in Latvia in 1941. Mass shootings of civilians took place in every Nazi occupied country. There was NO gun confiscation involved in ANY of it. The German Army would have already rolled through the territory and defeated any military or organized civilian resistance. What was left was rounded up and slaughtered by the trailing Einsatzgrupppenn troops, and no personal weapons would have made any difference even if they had actually had them.


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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:17 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


The argument re hitler and guns has always been nonsense. Hitler enjoyed enormous popular support from most of the german population probably up until near the end when it was clear that his military misadventures would result in the destruction of germany. People loved the fact that he got the economy ticking over and he retook areas of land considered by german people to have been stolen from them after ww1.


hitler carried out many campaign terrors, not the least amongst his own - most probably armed - cohorts in the Night of the Long Knives, many of them violent thugs themselves.

Hitler was able to ascend to power and remain in power largely due to his support both inside and out of Germany.


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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 10:55 PM

OLDENGLANDDRY


I'm not sure if it's still available online anywhere, but if you have'nt already seen it, take a look at the BBC series; "The Nazis, a warning from history".

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 11:00 PM

OLDENGLANDDRY


Just found it on youtube easily enough. It's a fascinating series.

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 3:16 AM

ARLO

-.-. ..- -- / -.-. .- - .- .--. ..- .-.. - .- . / .--. .-. --- ... -.-. .-. .. .--. - .- . / . .-. .- - --..-- / - ..- -- / ... --- .-.. .. / .--. .-. --- ... -.-. .-. .. .--. - / -.-. .- - .- .--. ..- .-.. - .- ... / .... .- -... . ..- -. -


Ah,the pathetic irony of PN jumping on the Obama = Hitler bandwagon with all ten fingers (and graphic poo) and still having to take a shot at Jews is rather reflective of his state of mind, in general. Heh.

sincerely, 1933

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 4:22 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
What was left was rounded up and slaughtered by the trailing Einsatzgrupppenn troops, and no personal weapons would have made any difference even if they had actually had them.


That is true.

I note for the record that for all those deaths only one time did a German officer refuse his orders (and he was a Nazi too). It did not end well for him or his unit.

I think the Hitler gun debate is not about taking guns from the conquered peoples of Europe, its about taking them from the German people after he was democratically elected.

I note for the record that the term "assault rifle" was first used by Nazi gun control laws to describe a new class of automatic and semi-automatic rifles that were just entering the marketplace for civilians and thus posing new problems for law enforcement who were often forced to limit themselves to revolvers and shotguns (something American law enforcement was also having problems with, heck it was around this time that the FBI was still arguing that it should even be allowed to carry weapons).

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 4:25 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
The argument re hitler and guns has always been nonsense.


Hitler was not widely known for his love and respect for civil rights. But I suspect he'd be supportive of the Democrat's gun control plans.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 4:58 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Meanwhile, many more categories of people, including Nazi party members, were exempted from gun ownership regulations altogether


Interesting. This might actually explain a lot, because Jews were certainly not party members. The problem here does appear to be unequal regulations for different groups.

It would be like if here, people passed laws against black people owning guns because they're "dangerous", and then used that as an excuse for more and more oppression until they all got rounded up in some kind of neo-slavery. That would be an appropriate Nazi analogy.

The point is well taken CTS. Though I note certain groups in the country DO have unequal access to dangerous weapons.

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 5:39 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
What was left was rounded up and slaughtered by the trailing Einsatzgrupppenn troops, and no personal weapons would have made any difference even if they had actually had them.


That is true.

I note for the record that for all those deaths only one time did a German officer refuse his orders (and he was a Nazi too). It did not end well for him or his unit.



Not true. It was well acknowledged that this sort of "personal" mass execution was traumatic for the soldiers (poor dears...) and a not insignificant number of them declined with no repercussions, though it was seen as cowardly. Peer pressure, bowing to authority, general antisemitism seems to have been the reasons most soldiers (regular Wehrmacht) took part. Alcohol was deployed, too. Makes it all the more sinister to think that a more wide-spread refusal to take part might have made a significant difference. The Einsatzgruppen were a different story, I believe.

Quote:


I think the Hitler gun debate is not about taking guns from the conquered peoples of Europe, its about taking them from the German people after he was democratically elected.



Considering parts of Germany were on the brink of civil war during parts of the Weimar republic, things were highly restricted before he came into power.


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Thursday, January 17, 2013 7:05 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
What was left was rounded up and slaughtered by the trailing Einsatzgrupppenn troops, and no personal weapons would have made any difference even if they had actually had them.


That is true.

I note for the record that for all those deaths only one time did a German officer refuse his orders (and he was a Nazi too). It did not end well for him or his unit.



Not true. It was well acknowledged that this sort of "personal" mass execution was traumatic for the soldiers (poor dears...) and a not insignificant number of them declined with no repercussions, though it was seen as cowardly. Peer pressure, bowing to authority, general antisemitism seems to have been the reasons most soldiers (regular Wehrmacht) took part. Alcohol was deployed, too. Makes it all the more sinister to think that a more wide-spread refusal to take part might have made a significant difference. The Einsatzgruppen were a different story, I believe.

Quote:


I think the Hitler gun debate is not about taking guns from the conquered peoples of Europe, its about taking them from the German people after he was democratically elected.



Considering parts of Germany were on the brink of civil war during parts of the Weimar republic, things were highly restricted before he came into power.




Even Himmler himself had to back away and cover his mouth when he went to Minsk in the Ukraine to witness and experience one of the mass executions. I believe Babi Yar ravine was the worst, with over 80,000 civilians killed in two days. All across the Eastern front the SS's efforts were assisted and facilitated by local police and townspeople, all too eager to help in the round-ups.

This is a short documentary about an Einsatzgruppen operation. The organized routine and banality of the whole thing is hard to comprehend. The second part is about a German police unit (not SS) of 500 men who rampaged around Poland.



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Thursday, January 17, 2013 7:25 AM

AGENTROUKA


Thanks for the vid, Jong. Absolute nightmare fuel.



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Thursday, January 17, 2013 7:38 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Thank you, CTS; nice take-apart of that favored meme. Have to remember that one.

Arlo, we expect no more (or less!) from PN; his virulent hatred of Judiasm and consistent attempts to claim everyone and anyone is a "Jew" are so normal we ignore them. Some of us ignore him completely...tho' I'm so tired of scrolling past his CONSTANT application of that Bohemian Grove photo, depicting a ceremony wherein members wear costumes and cremate a coffin effigy called “Care” before a 40-foot-owl, in deference to the surrounding Redwood trees, I could spit. I wish he'd get some new material..

I was amused by the beginning:
Quote:

This week, people were shocked when the Drudge Report posted a giant picture of Hitler over a headline speculating that the White House will proceed with executive orders to limit access to firearms. The proposed orders are exceedingly tame, but Drudge’s reaction is actually a common conservative response to any invocation of gun control.

Which is absolutelky on target. The fear mongering on the right has become a staple in our society and usually bears no resemblance whatsoever to reality. Sad state of affairs.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 8:01 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:


Not true. It was well acknowledged that this sort of "personal" mass execution was traumatic for the soldiers (poor dears...) and a not insignificant number of them declined with no repercussions, though it was seen as cowardly. Peer pressure, bowing to authority, general antisemitism seems to have been the reasons most soldiers (regular Wehrmacht) took part. Alcohol was deployed, too. Makes it all the more sinister to think that a more wide-spread refusal to take part might have made a significant difference. The Einsatzgruppen were a different story, I believe.



Oh yes. Which is why all the "scientific" psychology tests that arose after WW2, asking how the Germans got ALL their people to bow to authority so much and determining that EVERYONE bows to authority, are such a load of garbage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Quote:

Milgram argued that the ethical criticism provoked by his experiments was because his findings were disturbing and revealed unwelcome truths about human nature. Others have argued that the ethical debate has diverted attention from more serious problems with the experiment's methodology. Author Gina Perry found an unpublished paper in Milgram's archives that shows Milgram's own concern with how believable the experimental set-up was to subjects involved. Milgram's unpublished analysis indicated that many subjects suspected that the experiment was a hoax, a finding that casts doubt on the veracity of his results. In the journal Jewish Currents, Joseph Dimow, a participant in the 1961 experiment at Yale University, wrote about his early withdrawal as a "teacher," suspicious "that the whole experiment was designed to see if ordinary Americans would obey immoral orders, as many Germans had done during the Nazi period."


When you base your premise on a false concept to begin with, and load your study with preselected conditions, the end result can't be called science.

I see that "not-insignificant group of soldiers who refused to participate" as the one single hope spot that our species even has.

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 10:32 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:

Hitler was not widely known for his love and respect for civil rights. But I suspect he'd be supportive of the Democrat's gun control plans.

H



Well I guess it must be easy for someone like you to get inside his head.

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 10:39 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"But I suspect (Hitler)'d be supportive of the Democrat's gun control plans."

Coming from someone who has been so wrong, so often, your speculation in place of an actual argument is pretty funny.

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 10:52 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Coming from someone who has been so wrong, so often, your speculation in place of an actual argument is pretty funny.


Give me a break. Hitler would love Obama gun control. He'd even have a plan for confiscation...first the Jews, then everyone who disagrees with him, all the while promising no changes to people who support him...kinda like how Democrats plan their political campaigns.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 10:54 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ... you really need to stop drinking at lunch.



ENJOY YOUR NEXT FOUR YEARS!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - HERE'S LAUGHING AT YOU KID!

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 11:29 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Hitler actually relaxed gun laws and gun policy, which had been quite restrictive in the aftermath of WWI.

Hero has his facts almost 180 degrees opposite of reality, but that's no surprise given what he does for a living, is it? About 99% of everything he posts is just pure bullshit, unsourced, unverifiable, and completely made up. I have no doubt he behaves the same way in a court of law.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 1:57 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Oh yes. Which is why all the "scientific" psychology tests that arose after WW2, asking how the Germans got ALL their people to bow to authority so much and determining that EVERYONE bows to authority, are such a load of garbage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment


When you base your premise on a false concept to begin with, and load your study with preselected conditions, the end result can't be called science.

I see that "not-insignificant group of soldiers who refused to participate" as the one single hope spot that our species even has.



I understand the flaws of the Milgram experiment, but considering that the majority of soldiers did not refuse and were not necessarily die-hard racist, murder-loving sadists infused with the will to protect the Reich from those darn dangerous Eastern European villagers of the Jewish persuasion... I find merit in his theory. I mean, these guys saw that there were no real repercussions to refusing. They did it anyway, because it was expected of them.

Milgram's results may have been skewed but the tendency is probably correct.

And it's not necessarily that the soldiers who objected did so because they thought it was ethically wrong, though I sincerely hope the majority did. I'm sure at least some of them simply couldn't cross the line of physically doing it themselves.

I don't find that idea that we are vulnerable to following authority to be disheartening in that it merely reflects a sad reality of history: a LOT of otherwise normal people have participated in atrocities against fellow human beings. Given the wrong conditions, anyone might go down a dark path. Being aware of that instead of denying the possibility seems to be a step forward.

What is generally new these days is how there is a concept of war crimes, of genocide, of discrimination and persecution as bad things now, an internationally drawn up convention detailing this, beyond the more private sphere of "my religion is against murder" or "it feels wrong". We have almost universally vilified historical instances to compare to.

This needs to become the ingrained authority that people can refer to when faced with manipulation and coercion by another. They need to be aware of the mechanics of what makes them vulnerable to unethical choices. It will take time, but what gives me hope is that it is possible.

I guess I'm mainly deeply opposed to anything that might foster the complacent, self-indulgent assumption of any single person that they are beyond manipulation or "bowing to authority". It's the opposite of awareness.

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 2:33 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I guess I'm mainly deeply opposed to anything that might foster the complacent, self-indulgent assumption of any single person that they are beyond manipulation or "bowing to authority". It's the opposite of awareness.


I guess... I'm more concerned that this creates an argument for "this is human nature, everyone does this so it's okay, you should too."

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 3:13 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

I guess I'm mainly deeply opposed to anything that might foster the complacent, self-indulgent assumption of any single person that they are beyond manipulation or "bowing to authority". It's the opposite of awareness.


I guess... I'm more concerned that this creates an argument for "this is human nature, everyone does this so it's okay, you should too."



I guess I see the opposite, in that it destroys the illusion that bad things are done by bad people, that it is an "other" that good people are immune to. I never got the impression that it is an in-built excuse but rather a revelation of a human weakness with the implied responsibility to be on guard because of it, in situations a lot more complex than a self-congratulatory "I would never!"-mindset might expect.


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Thursday, January 17, 2013 5:25 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Sometimes the good-vs-evil equation does not apply. Shortly after Hitler was elected Chancellor of Germany in 1933 the Hitler Youth movement began. Young boys and girls were indoctrinated into the culture of Nazism and Mein Kampf. These children were isolated from their parents, teachers, and their churches from a very young age. As the years went by, violence and brutality became their daily lesson plan, and their un-hesitating fanatical devotion became a gauge to measure the most fit to become SS and Gestapo leaders and members. When WWII started these kids had become young adults, and they had no morality, no compassion, and no humanity inside of them. They eagerly and agressively carried out every brutal, sick, and demented action asked of them throughout the war.

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Thursday, January 17, 2013 8:00 PM

BYTEMITE


'Cept a lot of the funding for those kinds of studies was military, and at the time I know they were trying to solve the "problem" where only 30% of all the soldiers in WW2 ever even fired their weapons.

So I kinda don't trust those studies as being on the up and up, I think they had ulterior motives for trying those. And then Milgram outright says "it's human nature." What kind of scientific statement is that to make? Even if the breakdown really is 60% of people, which I doubt because of the evidence of the numbers game he was playing that we got, 60% isn't 100% isn't human nature. Plus it varies from nation to nation.

I think it really IS an other. It's only going to be a certain few people who will fire on an unarmed group with no provocation just because they're told to - training is what changes that. People have to become desensitized and their targets dehumanized to do that. And the people with no training who'll do that - often gleefully - they've got PROBLEMS.

Milgram's study focused on students following directions given by professors, something they've been told to do during their formative years, probably since they were five, and those students were still or recently subject to the authority of same professors. Seems like a non-representative group and non-representative situation to me.

It simply doesn't pass the sniff test.

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Friday, January 18, 2013 1:39 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I think it really IS an other. It's only going to be a certain few people who will fire on an unarmed group with no provocation just because they're told to - training is what changes that. People have to become desensitized and their targets dehumanized to do that. And the people with no training who'll do that - often gleefully - they've got PROBLEMS.

Milgram's study focused on students following directions given by professors, something they've been told to do during their formative years, probably since they were five, and those students were still or recently subject to the authority of same professors. Seems like a non-representative group and non-representative situation to me.

It simply doesn't pass the sniff test.



I guess we'll ultimately have to agree to disagree.

I fundamentally disagree with the notion that the capability for doing bad things is an "other" that normal people don't have to concern themselves with. I also don't particularly care if Milgram's experiment was funded by people with shady motivations because I find the results plausible and not even once did the idea figure into my mind that it relieves people of ethical responsibility, rather than emphasizes it.

(I don't disagree that there are people with pre-existing readiness to commit gruesome violence, but those don't represent the "normal" people who nonetheless committed those acts in large numbers.)

To me that shows exactly where people should be vigilant. Children and young adults need to be taught to question directions they are given by an authority if they conflict with ethical behavior, same as adults. That's what I take from this experiment. The training aspect you mentioned needs to be disrupted by that vigilance.

I don't understand how you see an impetus to shrug off that responsibility in this scenario but I respect your differing opinion even if I can't share it.

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Friday, January 18, 2013 2:23 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
To me that shows exactly where people should be vigilant. Children and young adults need to be taught to question directions they are given by an authority if they conflict with ethical behavior, same as adults. That's what I take from this experiment. The training aspect you mentioned needs to be disrupted by that vigilance.


Good luck with that.
I've *BEEN* workin on that one for damn near thirty years, and it ain't so easy when said kids are facing an ever increasing barrage of insistence to OBEY - a whole damn lot of it from both the public school curriculum, and from mainstream media, often reinforced by parents who are ignorant of the VALUE of questioning authority, or simply do not desire their own questioned.

The first person children are ever taught to lie to, is themself.

-Frem

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Friday, January 18, 2013 2:34 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Don't confuse agreeing with what is being done or simply not caring, with not questioning athority.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, January 18, 2013 6:07 AM

BYTEMITE


Nick: Can't tell who you're talking to.

AR: Okay.

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Friday, January 18, 2013 8:02 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Frem. I did not quote he since my post is right under his.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, January 18, 2013 9:57 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Don't confuse agreeing with what is being done or simply not caring, with not questioning athority.


I ain't confusing a damn thing - just in case you missed it I pointed out a confirmed example of exactly that kind of intentional conditioning as pointed out by one of the authors of childrens programming.

Oh it's easy to get people to "agree" with you if you never allow them knowledge of any other option, or if the only knowledge they have is distorted through the filters of someone elses agenda, and for the most part apathy comes from having no power, no say, in the decision anyway.

This kind of gamesmanship isn't necessarily limited to kids either, one case around here is when some local politician proposes an idiotic, expensive, or self-enriching measure and the voters cut it to pieces, at which point they cry "lack of voter education" and claim voters were not properly informed, then raid the budget for a "voter education"(i.e. propaganda) campaign and then submit the measure again, and again...
There's been some boot to arse about that in a couple of these podunk townships already, and while I am all for the notion of investing in libraries, expensive furniture and fluff is far less useful than more capacity and efficiency, although if they'd limited that to bettering handicapped access they might have got more support.

Another one was a stunt pulled a local elementary school back in baltimore circa 1989, when I was allied to a former domestic abuse victim and helping her get her life in order.
They sent a questionaire slip back with the kids, and it read like this:
Quote:

{ } - Yes, I want the school to adopt a uniform policy
{ } - No, I do not want a uniform policy adopted at this time.


This was an absolute setup, since their intention was to then spin that to the school board and local paper that "100% of the parents desired a uniform policy" (just 'not at this time') so they could shove one down upon the students despite about 60% of the parents being AGAINST it, cause the administrator had a financial interest in the company that would have been providing them, and most of the parents were already struggling financially and it would have been another expense, since whenever that is done the cost of those uniforms spirals up hard, especially if there's only one provider with an enforced monopoly.

For kids, it's even worse, most student governments are well aware of how utterly powerless they are and what a slap in the face it is when it's pretended you have a say - and those that aren't soon learn it the moment they manage to "successfully" counter some dumbass idea of the administration only to be then utterly ignored, or in extremis, disbanded.

So lets not pretend the sleight of hand, magicians fake "choices" we offer kids these days are anything of the sort, especially since their less-than-pets legal and social status means that if they DO disagree they can't DO a bloody thing about it anyways, hence leading to said so-called-apathy.

Personally I find such manipulation by either "side" of this appalling, cause most non-ghetto kids do not have sufficient experience with the topic, and most kids in general do not yet have a broad enough knowledge of the topic and related history to make an informed decision, a point I find especially galling given the distorted all-but-fiction taught in public schools as american history.

Now if they're in possession of sufficient knowledge base and experience to argue the topic, and then choose to agree/disagree, that's on them, and I can respect it - but trotting out catchphrases they've been taught by people with agendas (from either side) is no such thing, and offensive from EITHER direction.

-Frem

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Friday, January 18, 2013 10:38 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Yes, the children are so controlled. When was the last time you where in a school? Of course getting kids to sit down and pay attention is part of being able to teach them. Perhaps then they would be better educated than you claim they are now.

You know how I know that what ever attempts are made to just make people submit to authority aren't working? The internet. Find me someone that never questions authority on the web. Perhaps to you it looks like submitting if people are not fighting it. You dislike any type of authority. I doubt you can understand how anyone could agree with it.

You know what I remember from school? Finding out those things I thought where true were not. Now maybe my education in the public schools in western NY state was better than most. Or perhaps I wanted to learn in school. I did not come out like many of the people I went to school went still believe some the same fallacies I started with. No one can teach a person that does not want to learn.


I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, January 18, 2013 11:19 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Of course getting kids to sit down and pay attention is part of being able to teach them.

Getting them to WANT to isn't that hard.
Part of that problem comes from using a force-n-fear model instead of provoking a kids natural curiosity, one reason I am fond of Freeschools, but yes I am aware not all children do well in them and some seem to need a more rigid structure.

Quote:

You know how I know that what ever attempts are made to just make people submit to authority aren't working? The internet. Find me someone that never questions authority on the web.

Hehehehe, you just pointed out why I love the internet so much.
There's also that all the conditioning against empathy doesn't stick to well either.
Know why ?
Cause it's counter to human nature - we're not aggressive beasts you know, the notion that we need a leash 'for our own good' is and always has been bullshit since it was first offered, and the folks pushing that myth always seem to have some pretty obvious ideas about who should be holding it, don't they ?

I call it the three C's - Compassion, Communication, Cooperation.
It's our nature, who we are, and all the conditioning in the world, not matter how well executed, can do little more than suppress it, and still it leaks through.
And thanks be for that, elsewise, we'd be doomed.

The net is also pretty damn good as a knowledge base, so long as you vet and crosscheck your sources properly - back in my day (oh damn that makes me sound old!) I had to resort to Encylopedia Britannica, that was a small victory for me which ballooned into something greater.
Due to how freakin expensive they were, when me and my mother found a used set at a yard sale for dirt cheap, I begged, pleaded, cajoled, and she finally gave in - I carried them reverently home on foot a couple volumes at a time, took all day too, and I read them, cover-to-cover, being a voracious reader even then...

And came upon the word "Antifederalist".

See, my school did mention the Federalist papers, but it was insinuated that these were a mere explanation offered by "our betters" of what they were doing for our interest, ZERO mention in that curriculum about any opposition to the idea, by anyone - and it struck me like a thunderbolt, that they had LIED TO ME.
To this day I am not sure if that History teacher hated me, or treasured my opposition (it really did get the class "involved" and grades went up significantly) cause he never did pitch me out of his class despite having good reason to do so on multiple occasions... I think he might have secretly disagreed with the version of "history" he was teaching, maybe.

These days a kid can scour the internet (when they're not busy browsing porn) and find the hell out the basic facts of damn near anything, and that is a wonderful thing, one I wish preserved.
Quote:

You dislike any type of authority. I doubt you can understand how anyone could agree with it.

That is because you don't understand my concept of "Authority" - to ME, Authority comes from knowledge, competence, merit, even example - I automatically reject "Authority" which comes from force and threat, which is frankly, most of it.
Not that hard to reason with me, though some may disagree... but impossible to force me to do something I don't want to cause in extremis I will outright refuse no matter what threat one offers.
Quote:

You know what I remember from school? Finding out those things I thought where true were not. Now maybe my education in the public schools in western NY state was better than most.

I hope it was, I daresay education has improved in many places, but in others it has gone the other way, especially with this hateful lockdown mentality which causes the school to become a bastion of fear and oppression instead of liberation-through-knowledge and a celebration of education.
Quote:

No one can teach a person that does not want to learn.

Well, problem with that is suppression of curiosity, often done unintentionally and ignorantly, early on in development.

Curiosity: The Fuel of Development
http://teacher.scholastic.com/professional/bruceperry/curiosity.htm

You keep taking me for some kind of irrational demagogue, but I am not.
I simply reject the idea of social control through force, fear and coercion.
Once you comprehend that, all else falls into place behind it - you might not AGREE with me, but it is not a nonsensical argument or point of view.
Quote:

“As long as the child will be trained not by love, but by fear, so long will humanity live not by justice, but by force. As long as the child will be ruled by the educator’s threat and by the father’s rod, so long will mankind be dominated by the policeman’s club, by fear of jail, and by panic of invasion by armies and navies.”

Boris Sidis, from “A lecture on the abuse of the fear instinct in early education” in Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 1919.


-Frem

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Friday, January 18, 2013 11:32 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

I simply reject the idea of social control through force, fear and coercion.



I have only one word for those that DO NOT reject it:


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Friday, January 18, 2013 11:40 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


The core of my disagreement with you maybe that human’s nature is one of violence as well as compassion. Man's near infinite ability for compassion is only eclipsed by his infinite ability to destroy. War has been with us for as long as we have been around. It is not a learned trait. If anything we learn to control that side of use much more then we ever learn not to care.

Authority which comes from knowledge, competence, merit, and example is nice, but you know as well as I not everyone respects those things. Many people can't even recognize those. So we have the threat of consequences if people will not follow the rules set by society.

You are right the no one maybe able to force you to do some things. They can however force the consequences of not doing them on you. That is the point.


I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, January 18, 2013 11:53 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Man's near infinite ability for compassion is only eclipsed by his infinite ability to destroy.

Less people are truly violent & bent on destruction than you might believe. It's just when they do something, it's usually big news. Thousands of people made the World Trade Center, a group of less than a hundred destroyed it.

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Friday, January 18, 2013 11:54 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

I simply reject the idea of social control through force, fear and coercion.



I have only one word for those that DO NOT reject it:




HA!

Excellent.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, January 18, 2013 12:04 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:

HA!

Excellent.

One could find a lot of use for that jpg in these parts, I conjure.

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Friday, January 18, 2013 12:30 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:

HA!

Excellent.

One could find a lot of use for that jpg in these parts, I conjure.




Especially if they had spelled DUMB-ASS correctly...

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Friday, January 18, 2013 12:34 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Especially if they had spelled DUMB-ASS correctly...

Ahh, the intentional irony factor.

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Friday, January 18, 2013 1:11 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Coming from someone who has been so wrong, so often, your speculation in place of an actual argument is pretty funny.
Quote:

About 99% of everything he posts is just pure bullshit, unsourced, unverifiable, and completely made up. I have no doubt he behaves the same way in a court of law.

That's only if you believe he ever SEES the inside of a court of law.
Quote:

Milgram's results may have been skewed but the tendency is probably correct.... I'm mainly deeply opposed to anything that might foster the complacent, self-indulgent assumption of any single person that they are beyond manipulation or "bowing to authority". It's the opposite of awareness.... a revelation of a human weakness with the implied responsibility to be on guard because of it, in situations a lot more complex than a self-congratulatory "I would never!"-mindset might expect.

I'm with Agent; I would say "the opposite of SELF-awareness".
Quote:

getting kids to sit down and pay attention is part of being able to teach them. Perhaps then they would be better educated than you claim they are now.

I also agree with Nick. Perhaps we should ask Mal4 or Mark how "easy" it is to teach kids these days, given they are teachers, rather than just saying "Getting them to WANT to isn't that hard." I'm pretty sure many, many classrooms today aren't like when I went to school, or you, Frem... Just sayin'.
Quote:

Less people are truly violent & bent on destruction than you might believe. It's just when they do something, it's usually big news.]/quote]
Chris has, in my opinion, a very valid point.


Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Friday, January 18, 2013 4:38 PM

BYTEMITE


I went to school and I believed what they told me hard. Then I walked out and then I was all like, wait a minute. America doesn't belch rainbows like they said.

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Friday, January 18, 2013 4:52 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


http://aattp.org/7-famous-quotes-from-a-tyrannical-gun-grabbing-dictat
or
/



Quote:


1. “Well, I think there has to be some [gun] control.”

2. “I think maybe there could be some restrictions that there had to be a certain amount of training taken.”

3. “Every year, an average of 9,200 Americans are murdered by handguns, according to Department of Justice statistics. This does not include suicides or the tens of thousands of robberies, rapes and assaults committed with handguns. This level of violence must be stopped.”

4. “With the right to bear arms comes a great responsibility to use caution and common sense on handgun purchases.”

5. “Certain forms of ammunition have no legitimate sporting, recreational, or self-defense use and thus should be prohibited.”

6. “I do not believe in taking away the right of the citizen for sporting, for hunting and so forth, or for home defense. But I do believe that an AK-47, a machine gun, is not a sporting weapon or needed for defense of a home.”

7. “This is a matter of vital importance to the public safety … While we recognize that assault-weapon legislation will not stop all assault-weapon crime, statistics prove that we can dry up the supply of these guns, making them less accessible to criminals.”



So who said it?

Mussolini? Nope.
Hitler? Nahhh.
Stalin? Please...
Lenin? As if.
Saddam Hussein? Lightweight.
Pol Pot? Rank Amateur.
Kim Jong Il? You wish.
Jimmy Carter? Pussy.
Bill Clinton? When would he have time, what with all the blowjobs?
Barack Obama? C'mon...


Nope. It was all said by right-wing hero and conservative saint Ronald Reagan.



And nobody on the right, not one single conservative today, wants you to remember that or think about it.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Friday, January 18, 2013 10:05 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
The core of my disagreement with you maybe that human’s nature is one of violence as well as compassion. Man's near infinite ability for compassion is only eclipsed by his infinite ability to destroy. War has been with us for as long as we have been around. It is not a learned trait. If anything we learn to control that side of use much more then we ever learn not to care


In response, I offer this, just for thought.



Quote:

You are right the no one maybe able to force you to do some things. They can however force the consequences of not doing them on you. That is the point.

Perhaps, but that's not QUITE so easy as you make it sound since I happen to be a large fan of third-option-thinking, but that's also one of my points... IF someone is willing to absorb the natural and other consequences of what they do, then you really CAN'T stop them from doing something, or MAKE them do something, it just won't work.

-Frem

PS. For Clarity - Say "Do this or I will shoot you", and I say "Fine, go ahead and do that." and proceed to refuse, then what, you shoot me ?
Still means I don't do it, doesn't it ?

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Saturday, January 19, 2013 7:55 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Wow, Frem, that graphic was fantastic. I had to pay attention so I didn't get so fascinated that I didn't get what he was talking about, but I worked at it, while still being enormously impressed by his drawing ability!

I agree with the point he made, and I wish it were possible to do as he suggests. I'm afraid I'm not that much of an optimist, however.

But thanx for the graphic!

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Saturday, January 19, 2013 11:06 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I agree with the point he made, and I wish it were possible to do as he suggests. I'm afraid I'm not that much of an optimist, however.


Nor am I, save for the fact that for me this is sure knowledge rather than hope.

The bastards of the world are done for, they know it, we know it, and it's all just a matter of time - my pushing is mostly cause imma impatient little bastich when it comes to the cause of humanity.

There WILL be a second Enlightenment, it may not happen in my lifetime (but I thought that about the fall of WWASPS too!) but that such will happen is no longer a matter of hope, but simply of time.

-Frem

PS. I had to watch it through twice for the same reason!

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Sunday, January 20, 2013 9:04 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

But I suspect he'd be supportive of the Democrat's gun control plans.
I know this has been addressed already, but... really???? Do you OFTEN substitute your own suppositions in place of fact, and with such absolute certainty? Wow. Do you prosecute the same way? I suspect little Johnny would have robbed the grocery store? Yikes.

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Monday, January 21, 2013 5:01 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Though I note certain groups in the country DO have unequal access to dangerous weapons.

I think, in the end, that is the more important point. That they DID disarm the demographic they meant to persecute. It's not necessary to disarm the entire populace to persecute a subset.

The lesson for me is to look at who they are disarming now, in the USA.


-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

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Monday, January 21, 2013 5:55 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

In response, I offer this, just for thought.





Thanks Frem. That was amazing.

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Tuesday, January 22, 2013 1:57 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
I think, in the end, that is the more important point. That they DID disarm the demographic they meant to persecute. It's not necessary to disarm the entire populace to persecute a subset.

The lesson for me is to look at who they are disarming now, in the USA.



Apart from denying Jews the rights they accorded other citizens, I sincerely doubt that being armed would have made much of a difference for the Jewish population of Germany. They were less than one percent of the population and apparently had little to no support from the general population.

Basically, disarming Jewish people was not a "step" on the holocaust ladder. It was more of a formality along the way, while marginalizing them economically and socially were the real groundwork toward eventually deporting and murdering them.

I just honestly don't think that this is a valid comparison. I find it almost offensive.

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