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The Hitler gun control lie

POSTED BY: CANTTAKESKY
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 5, 2022 13:52
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Tuesday, January 22, 2013 8:00 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

I just honestly don't think that this is a valid comparison. I find it almost offensive.

I do as well. For another reason: To equate us to the time of the Third Reich is offensive to me as an America. We are nothing like them; our social structure is totally different; our history is COMPLETELY different; and we wouldn't stand for disarming one entire portion of our society for a minute. The comparison doesn't so much offend as disgust me.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Tuesday, January 22, 2013 11:54 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Yeah, the kind of tyranny you guys will end up if the far right of the republicans gain any further political control will look completely different to Germany in the 30'

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Tuesday, January 22, 2013 12:05 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Actually if anything we're closest to the fall of the Roman Empire, something I noticed back in the 1980s, although that paralel doesn't hold up perfectly either...

As for Reich-comparisons, some of that comes from the problem that there's no shortage of people within our Govt, our Military, and *especially* our intel agencies... who think going that way is a damn good idea and actively push for it, without actually admitting that's their intention.
Which is in some part where the comparison comes from, although economically their policies are far closer to Mussolini.

-F

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Tuesday, January 22, 2013 1:07 PM

BYTEMITE


And there's more triumphant take away point in there as well: even with all of that arrayed against them, they still didn't give up.

There's something very much like optimism to be found in there, even if a lot of the individual stories ended tragically.

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Tuesday, January 22, 2013 1:24 PM

AGENTROUKA


Byte,
absolutely! It's incredible, especially, not just that people got through this but that they did so with their humanity intact. Triumphant is absolutely the right term.

I've recently been reading an autobiographical account by a Jewish man named Cioma Schönhaus, who survived in hiding until his escape in 1944. It's a tear-jerker, not because of all the horrible things that happen around him, but because it is written with... humor. And love and joy and hope. There is such a commitment to life, not mere survival. It's humbling and inspiring in every way. Very extraordinary story.

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Tuesday, January 22, 2013 1:26 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

To equate us to the time of the Third Reich is offensive to me as an America. We are nothing like them; our social structure is totally different; our history is COMPLETELY different; and we wouldn't stand for disarming one entire portion of our society for a minute.


lolwut

Third Reich System: unhealthy cooperation between government and business, with special treatment for members of the Nazi party. Had a national parliament system called the reichstag - burned, replaced with a system of executive orders from a dictator using a contingency plan for emergency martial law. Dangerous xenophobic and nationalistic elements in the military foment war.

US System: unhealthy cooperation between government and business, with special treatment for members of the power elite. Has a bicameral system of two equally useless legislative bodies, forcing government running to rely more and more on executive orders from the president. Has a contingency plan in place for emergency martial law. Dangerous xenophobic and nationalistic elements in the military foment war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law#United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_84

Third Reich History: Early excess government centered in Austria/Hungary establishes itself as an empire. A military defeat results in Germany splitting from the empire into a republic state. On failure of the original republic due to financial ruin, a new government with a stronger central power takes over after about 11 years, and the old constitution is rendered obsolete. A few years later, Kristalnacht happens. In a build up to another war, paranoia results in minority citizens of that country to be rounded up and stuck into harsh concentration camps. Engaged in racially motivated military actions in the middle east, dividing arabic and muslim tribes against each other.

US History: Excess government centered in England establishes itself as an empire. A military defeat by revolutionaries in the US results in the colonies splitting from England into a confederacy. On failure of the initial system due to financial ruin, a new government with a stronger central power takes over after about 8 years, and the old agreement is rendered obsolete. Within a few years of that, the Alien and Sedition acts are passed. Enslaved black people for a century. In a build up to another war, paranoia results in minority citizens of this country to be rounded up and stuck into harsh internment camps. Engaged in racially motivated military actions in the middle east, dividing arabic and muslim tribes against each other.

Third Reich disarmament: Disarmed Jews.

US disarmament: Wants to disarm people with potential for violence and history of mental illness.

America is kinda fascist and terrible. This would be why I hate the political, military, and business leadership of America.

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Tuesday, January 22, 2013 1:36 PM

BYTEMITE


AR: This is true. Perhaps I focus too much on arguing whether or not the US is redeemable, and not enough on the individual stories of human spirit.

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Tuesday, January 22, 2013 1:58 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Third Reich History: Early excess government centered in Austria/Hungary establishes itself as an empire. A military defeat results in Germany splitting from the empire into a republic state. On failure of the original republic due to financial ruin, a new government with a stronger central power takes over after about 11 years, and the old constitution is rendered obsolete. A few years later, Kristalnacht happens. In a build up to another war, paranoia results in minority citizens of that country to be rounded up and stuck into harsh concentration camps. Engaged in racially motivated military actions in the middle east, dividing arabic and muslim tribes against each other.



I think this is a misrepresentation. Austria-Hungary was a separate entity from the Prussian-led German "Reich" (once a neutral term meaning 'realm') for a long time, long before Germany ever became a country. Germany never split from it, it was never a part of it. Military defeat in WW1 led to revolts inside Germany. What broke the Weimar republic apart was that it was never stable to begin with. It struggled with downright civil war between socialists, democrats, monarchists and what became nazis, especially in the early days. It had a solid moment in the middle but one large-scale financial crisis was all it took to sink the entire enterprise into absolute chaos. There was no popular backing for democracy.

The US, in comparison, struggled through the great depression without electing a fascist, racist dictator because it had a solid, popularly carried relationship to its democratic system. I'm pretty sure this is still true.

And the Jews were certainly not rounded up due to war paranoia. Both persecution of Jews (and socialists and certain Christians and homosexuals and the mentally disabled...) as well as aggressive war preparations were parallel aspects of the same underlying ideology.

I... just really don't think the comparison holds up, at all.

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Tuesday, January 22, 2013 2:02 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
AR: This is true. Perhaps I focus too much on arguing whether or not the US is redeemable, and not enough on the individual stories of human spirit.



I encourage the latter! :) You find yourself reminded why human beings can be absolutely fantastic.

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Tuesday, January 22, 2013 2:06 PM

BYTEMITE


The US tried the Articles of Confederacy first. They failed due to financial collapse of the US currency, but it was also unstable due to the different factions within the system. So the founding fathers established the United States of America, which had a much stronger central power and federal control. Federalists versus anti-federalists and etc.

I was not talking about the great depression. The great depression was never a weimar republic scenario because the US had a stable and very strong federal government at the time. But that doesn't mean that the US never experienced a Weimar republic scenario. It did.

Quote:

Germany never split from it, it was never a part of it.


This is probably the best argument against what I wrote - except, did Austria agree that Germany wasn't part of that Empire? Hitler CAME from Austria, this wasn't exactly an unpopular sentiment.

The American colonists at some point stopped believing they were really part of the the English empire - or ever were, but the English kept right on believing it. Frankly our colonies had a better claim than the Germans because we didn't even all of us have the same lingo-ethnic background.

Germany/Prussia prior to Hapsburg meddling was ruled by a bunch of little kings (more than one of them as I recall completely crazy), much like America was ruled by its governor barons and theocracies and upper class with its indentured servants.

I see very little difference between the two. But you may disagree. Just trying to point out that the argument is not as outlandish as people are depicting it. America has done TERRIBLE things, and I won't forgive or forget, no more than I will forgive or forget any other country that has done terrible things.

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Tuesday, January 22, 2013 2:15 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
AR: This is true. Perhaps I focus too much on arguing whether or not the US is redeemable, and not enough on the individual stories of human spirit.



I encourage the latter! :) You find yourself reminded why human beings can be absolutely fantastic.



Also true.

Must stop trying to argue about American fascism. It's just A THING, that I do, a lot.

I acknowledge, and apologize in advance that my opinions also tend to piss off most everyone I know, which is unfortunate, but I can't stop saying it. I guess I just don't like America. :/ I don't wish it ill, but I don't like it.

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Tuesday, January 22, 2013 3:55 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
I think, in the end, that is the more important point. That they DID disarm the demographic they meant to persecute. It's not necessary to disarm the entire populace to persecute a subset.

The lesson for me is to look at who they are disarming now, in the USA.



Apart from denying Jews the rights they accorded other citizens, I sincerely doubt that being armed would have made much of a difference for the Jewish population of Germany. They were less than one percent of the population and apparently had little to no support from the general population.

Basically, disarming Jewish people was not a "step" on the holocaust ladder. It was more of a formality along the way, while marginalizing them economically and socially were the real groundwork toward eventually deporting and murdering them.

I just honestly don't think that this is a valid comparison. I find it almost offensive.




As Jon Stewart pointed out, France had a lot of guns. Russia had kind of a lot of guns. Hell, France was one of the largest military forces in the world at the time the Germans invaded, and had the strongest fortifications on their border of anyone save possibly China.

It took the U.S., the entire British Empire, and a whole shitload of other nations to stop the Nazis. And the Nazis were FINE with their people having guns - they actually LOOSENED gun laws and restrictions.

So a few Jews with guns really wasn't going to make the difference.

Anyone still arguing this line of "reasoning" is an idiot.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, January 22, 2013 3:58 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
AR: This is true. Perhaps I focus too much on arguing whether or not the US is redeemable, and not enough on the individual stories of human spirit.



I encourage the latter! :) You find yourself reminded why human beings can be absolutely fantastic.



Also true.

Must stop trying to argue about American fascism. It's just A THING, that I do, a lot.

I acknowledge, and apologize in advance that my opinions also tend to piss off most everyone I know, which is unfortunate, but I can't stop saying it. I guess I just don't like America. :/ I don't wish it ill, but I don't like it.




So look at those stories of individual inspiration and think the same thing about America. While you might not like the country much, look at it's capabilities, its promise and hope. There are inspiring stories there, too. Not many, maybe, but each one is a scrap to hold onto.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, January 22, 2013 4:02 PM

AGENTROUKA


Let me first emphasize that I am not disagreeing with your point about US policies or political future. Merely with the historical comparison you are drawing up because it does not reflect historical fact and thus really doesn't work.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I was not talking about the great depression. The great depression was never a weimar republic scenario because the US had a stable and very strong federal government at the time. But that doesn't mean that the US never experienced a Weimar republic scenario. It did.



Ah, I did not realize. My mistake.

Quote:


Quote:

Germany never split from it, it was never a part of it.


This is probably the best argument against what I wrote - except, did Austria agree that Germany wasn't part of that Empire? Hitler CAME from Austria, this wasn't exactly an unpopular sentiment.



As an empire, Austria was generally too busy trying to keep order within its own borders to pose a great danger to its northern neighbors. It was never remotely comparable to Britain vs. its colonies.

Hitler's annexation of his homeland in 1938 was a realization of 19th century ultra-nationalist pan-German sentiment on both sides rather than anything pre-war Austrian monarchy would ever have wanted or could have reasonably attempted.

Quote:


Germany/Prussia prior to Hapsburg meddling was ruled by a bunch of little kings (more than one of them as I recall completely crazy), much like America was ruled by its governor barons and theocracies and upper class with its indentured servants.



What Habsburger meddling are you referring to, though? You are assuming something that never existed. Habsburg monarchs did not cause the formation of the German Reich in 1871, not even remotely.

And 'little kings' is misstating things, as well. It was a heterogenic mix. Saxony was a large and influential principality of renown. Bavaria was no slouch. Prussia was a military threat from the early 1700's. Austria had to ally with its hated enemy France just to keep the Prussians at bay and they still had trouble doing it. They really didn't have any political say over the various German principalities beyond sharing the Holy Roman Empire with them.

Quote:


I see very little difference between the two. But you may disagree. Just trying to point out that the argument is not as outlandish as people are depicting it. America has done TERRIBLE things, and I won't forgive or forget, no more than I will forgive or forget any other country that has done terrible things.



No, honestly, it cannot be compared because the relationship between Germany and Austria was never like that of a colony with its mother country, or even a conquered nation with its rulers because neither scenario applies. Again, I'm not disagreeing with your point about the US. I am disagreeing with the false historical equivalency.



ETA: It just occurred to me how wildly off-topic this entire post is. I do apologize.

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Tuesday, January 22, 2013 5:24 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

What Habsburger meddling are you referring to, though? You are assuming something that never existed. Habsburg monarchs did not cause the formation of the German Reich in 1871, not even remotely.


The Hapburgs had intentions on Germany - like every big player back then, they all had intentions on everyone else, a delicate game of tightrope and cat and mouse. They thought it was their divine providence to preserve the Holy Roman Empire - with them at the head of it. The Austro-Prussian war even in this wikipedia article is referred to as a "German civil war."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Prussian_War

Hitler's ideas didn't come from nowhere. He was carrying through ideas that had existed for a long while about a unified Austria and Germany. And Austria USED to rule a number of the Prussian provinces.

But, I can see we aren't going to agree about whether there are parallels between Austria/Germany and England/US.

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Tuesday, January 22, 2013 6:01 PM

AGENTROUKA


Let me get my nitpick comb! :)

"German Civil War" is one of many titles of this war and only applies because several German countries allied with Austria against Prussia, not because Austria is traditionally considered a part of Germany.

The HRE was not an empire so much as a "realm" by traditional membership and was of steeply declining importance, which is why Napoleon could just do away with it so easily in 1804, the emperor did not own the member states or run their business. And he was elected. It was separate from Austria's empire.

And I already described 19th century nationalism's influence on popular opinion that eventually informed the Nazi annex of Austria.

I don't know what more to say. The relationship you are implying is simply not there. Austria was neither Germany's sovereign, even by their own definition, nor a hulking threat. Prussia-Germany, especially, was stronger than Austria, even before it actually became the German Reich. There was nothing from which Germany could have split after WW1 because it never belonged to Austria in any way. The scenario you drew up was incorrect.

That doesn't make your opinion about the US or its potential future incorrect.

So yeah, let's agree to disagree. Again. :) We do seem to have a habit of that, hehe.


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Tuesday, January 22, 2013 9:09 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Speakin of personal triumph within catastrophe...

One of my initial inspirations back in the late 80's/early 90's was learning of The White Rose Society.
http://www.whiterosesociety.org/WRS_pamphlets_home.html

Yes, ultimately, they failed - but they tried, and studying HOW they failed lead me to the smoke and mirrors obfuscatory tactics I used effectively for so very long, because when getting it done is more important than getting credit, when whistleblowers are treated as terrorists, well...
Of course that torch has now been passed into capable hands, so I can be a little less cagey about things, but old habits do die hard.

FYI: That 1985 BMW of mine is named Sophie, in her honor.

-Frem
PS. Read the damn leaflets - they're as accurate now as they were then.
Frighteningly so.

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Wednesday, January 23, 2013 10:46 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Not really wildy off topic at all, Agentrouka. The thread is about 20th century germany, after all.

Are you German? If so, your written English is amazing.

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Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:14 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Indeed.

CTS was never one to let facts get in the way of a belief.

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Tuesday, July 5, 2022 1:52 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


and in other homosexual gay lesbian news

The Nazis didn’t ban all Germans from owning guns. That’s a lie spread by gun control opponents

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2022/06/nazis-didnt-ban-germans-owning-gun
s-thats-lie-spread-gun-control-opponents
/

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