REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Time for fire or building control?

POSTED BY: KWICKO
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 09:53
SHORT URL:
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Sunday, January 27, 2013 12:42 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)




http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/28/world/americas/brazil-nightclub-fire
.html?_r=0



Quote:

RIO DE JANEIRO — A fire ignited by a flare from a band’s pyrotechnic spectacle swept through a nightclub filled with hundreds of university students early on Sunday morning in Santa Maria, a city in southern Brazil, killing at least 232 people, police officials said.


Health workers hauled bodies from the club, called Kiss, to hospitals in Santa Maria throughout Sunday morning. Some of the survivors were taken to the nearby city of Porto Alegre to be treated for burns. Valdeci Oliveira, a local legislator, said he saw piles of bodies in the nightclub’s bathrooms.

Col. Guido Pedroso de Melo, the commander of the city’s Fire Department, said security guards had locked exits, which intensified the panic as people in the club stampeded to the doors. One police investigator at the club, Elizabeth Shimomura, told a television news channel, “It is a scene of horror.”

Survivors described a scene of mayhem as patrons rushed for the main exit. “I only got out because I am strong,” Ezequiel Corte Real, 23, told reporters. He said he helped others escape the blaze.

The disaster in Santa Maria, which is in the relatively prosperous state of Rio Grande do Sul, shocked the country. President Dilma Rousseff canceled appointments at a summit meeting in Chile to travel to Santa Maria, a city of about 260,000 residents that is known for its cluster of universities.

The disaster ranks among the deadliest of nightclub fires, comparable to the 2003 blaze in Rhode Island that killed 100 people, one in 2004 in Buenos Aires in which 194 were killed, and a fire at a club in China in 2000 in which 309 people died.










"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."


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Sunday, January 27, 2013 3:17 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

The disaster ranks among the deadliest of nightclub fires, comparable to the 2003 blaze in Rhode Island that killed 100 people, one in 2004 in Buenos Aires in which 194 were killed, and a fire at a club in China in 2000 in which 309 people died.



Once again Commie China outperforms USA.

I think I see the problem in Brazil -- they fight fire with BOMBS.


http://news.yahoo.com/deadly-smoke-lone-blocked-exit-230-die-brazil-20
1703681.html


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Sunday, January 27, 2013 3:45 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Sure glad my clubbin' days are long behind me. Back in '77 my new bride dragged me out to a disco one night after she caught the Saturday Night Fever bug. I went in, looked around, said no way I'm doing that, but she pulled me onto the dance floor despite my desire not to go. I'm sure the regulars must have got a big kick out of seeing me disco dance. With all that polyester, Hai Karate, and combed out hair inside the whole place could have ignited with one flicked cigarette ash.

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Sunday, January 27, 2013 4:14 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Jong, you are a bad, bad man, I shouldn't laugh.. but I did.

Anyhows, we already GOT those things Mikey, occupancy limits, building codes and whatnot - not totally clear on the specifics, but sufficient exits and a clear path to them is a requirement as far as I can recall.
That and certain safety reqs in regards to stage pyrotechnics.

The few similar incidents we've had here in the States have always come from someones violation of those codes, which despite a bit of wailing and whinging by folk with more greed than sense, come across to me as more of a mutual common sense agreement than most laws do.

Of course, whenever some petty local tyrant decides to misuse those codes as a weapon to abuse someone, it demeans them - something which IMHO *should* be punished MORE severely than violations of them (sometimes done in ignorance) since it requires not only malice aforethought but a substantial breach of ethics, then again I also feel that police who knowingly break the law oughta catch triple-sentencing, and yet all too often representatives of Gov get a free ride on these things, which is one reason WHY such laws and regs can never be really trusted.

If people knew that those in charge of such things could *NOT* maliciously misuse them, they'd be a little more accepting of them.

-Frem

PS. It was exactly this, mind you, which lead to the Killdozer.

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Sunday, January 27, 2013 4:50 PM

HERO


Fire and building control, car control, etc.

What we really need is birth control. Everyone born is immediately condemned to death. Generations of children, condemned to death...a long, slow, lingering death.

We need to stop giving birth...for the children.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Sunday, January 27, 2013 6:09 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Jong, you are a bad, bad man, I shouldn't laugh.. but I did.


It's ok to laugh man. That's a true story of my first adventure into the world of disco. I remember the booming bass sound of the disco hit from the movie Midnight Express was playing, and I just had no idea what the hell to do.






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Sunday, January 27, 2013 7:16 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Fire and building control, car control, etc.

What we really need is birth control. Everyone born is immediately condemned to death. Generations of children, condemned to death...a long, slow, lingering death.

We need to stop giving birth...for the children.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012




Good to hear you support abortion rights.


After all, if you ban abortion, there will still be abortions. Better not to do anything at all. Or call for abortionists at every school.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Sunday, January 27, 2013 7:17 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Jong, you are a bad, bad man, I shouldn't laugh.. but I did.

Anyhows, we already GOT those things Mikey, occupancy limits, building codes and whatnot - not totally clear on the specifics, but sufficient exits and a clear path to them is a requirement as far as I can recall.
That and certain safety reqs in regards to stage pyrotechnics.

The few similar incidents we've had here in the States have always come from someones violation of those codes, which despite a bit of wailing and whinging by folk with more greed than sense, come across to me as more of a mutual common sense agreement than most laws do.

Of course, whenever some petty local tyrant decides to misuse those codes as a weapon to abuse someone, it demeans them - something which IMHO *should* be punished MORE severely than violations of them (sometimes done in ignorance) since it requires not only malice aforethought but a substantial breach of ethics, then again I also feel that police who knowingly break the law oughta catch triple-sentencing, and yet all too often representatives of Gov get a free ride on these things, which is one reason WHY such laws and regs can never be really trusted.

If people knew that those in charge of such things could *NOT* maliciously misuse them, they'd be a little more accepting of them.

-Frem

PS. It was exactly this, mind you, which lead to the Killdozer.




Wait - are you suggesting that regulations, laws, and codes can actually HELP? And that if you find instances where they don't work, you can modify them?

Blasphemy!

The NRA will revoke your nonexistent membership, and Ted Nugent wants you dead. Or he just shit his pants. You can never really tell with ol' Ted.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:23 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Crap. That's horrible. Maybe they don't have very good rules about those sorts of things in Brazil? Even with rules though it only takes someone ignoring/breaking them for catastrophe to strike.
:(

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Sunday, January 27, 2013 11:57 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
The NRA will revoke your nonexistent membership, and Ted Nugent wants you dead. Or he just shit his pants. You can never really tell with ol' Ted.


Eff the NRA, I happen to despise them you know - believe me if there was more profit in betraying their principles than there is whipping up fear about it they'd do it in an instant - just like the AARP did unto seniors none too long ago, they're poor guardians at best and at worst downright treacherous.
Not that I mind the rabidity, since the JFPO is even more so and I *do* support them, sometimes that's the only defense against a knee-jerk rush to self-destructive dumbass ideas, you know.

If you wanna screw with the Second Amendment, you can only do so *BY* Amendment, there's a goddamned good reason for that, and ignoring the process when one finds it inconvenient demeans ALL the rights, making them easier to trample on - I don't take that shit about the other ones, I won't accept it on this one neither, one will find me remarkably consistent on this topic, as you well know.

As for that pervert the Nooooge, and yes, I called him a pervert - with good reason, he went off the mental deep end and became self parody quite some time ago, I think him and Eastwood might have some senility manifesting as head-up-ass-itis going on or something.

One of the benefits of having helped some very messed up people through their issues is the ability to pre-arrange an unfortunate accident for yourself if you ever go so far off the rails you become a detriment to your own cause, and while I wouldn't reccommend such a policy for everyone....
Well...


-Frem

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Monday, January 28, 2013 4:52 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Good to hear you support abortion rights.


'Death begins at conception' is in the Democratic Party platform.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Monday, January 28, 2013 4:55 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
...and ignoring the process when one finds it inconvenient demeans ALL the rights, making them easier to trample on...


What was that? I can't hear you over President Obama's illegal recess appoints, Tsars, and executive orders.

Obama, a bady of a President. An angry, noisy baby.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Monday, January 28, 2013 6:26 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
Crap. That's horrible. Maybe they don't have very good rules about those sorts of things in Brazil? Even with rules though it only takes someone ignoring/breaking them for catastrophe to strike.
:(

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya



Actually, they probably do have rules.

Here's the key statement involved in all these club tragedies:

Quote:

Survivors described a scene of mayhem as patrons rushed for the main exit.


For some reason it's pretty common for people to stampede towards the exit they used to enter a building, instead of locating more convenient and less crowded fire exits. I've heard it's a psychological thing.

What's probably needed is to expand the roles of the bouncers to crisis traffic director. I mean for goodness sake, we can evacuate enormous ships with 1000s of people out on the ocean into lifeboats, and that's because the crews are trained how to get everyone out. Provided the captain doesn't turn coward and jump ship early on (the moron).

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Monday, January 28, 2013 7:27 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Actually, they probably do have rules.

Here's the key statement involved in all these club tragedies:

Quote:

Survivors described a scene of mayhem as patrons rushed for the main exit.


For some reason it's pretty common for people to stampede towards the exit they used to enter a building, instead of locating more convenient and less crowded fire exits. I've heard it's a psychological thing.

What's probably needed is to expand the roles of the bouncers to crisis traffic director. I mean for goodness sake, we can evacuate enormous ships with 1000s of people out on the ocean into lifeboats, and that's because the crews are trained how to get everyone out. Provided the captain doesn't turn coward and jump ship early on (the moron).



In this particular case, there was only the one exit. The emergency exits were locked.

I imagine that to be the case with many such tragedies. Even if unlocked, if emergency exits aren't marked so visibly that you immediately spot them and know where where they are from the moment you enter a room, even with bad visibility, you will run to the only exit point you know. It's really a big leap to expect a person who is in a state of panic because dark smoke and flames are filling up the room to rationally look around for anything. It's a big gamble to waste time and oxygen on, if you don't find it quick, you might not have time to make it to the one you knew was there all along, and if you find it, you can't be certain it's not locked. Can't blame people for that.

I utterly agree that "crisis traffic directors" would be a fantastic thing. First sign of a problem they open all doors and direct people to them asap.

But if places can't be bothered to even keep their emergency exits unlocked, it's not so much a problem of being inefficient and more of malicious endangerment.

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Monday, January 28, 2013 7:50 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

In this particular case, there was only the one exit. The emergency exits were locked.


...

They wanted them all to die. It's the only explanation.

Quote:

But if places can't be bothered to even keep their emergency exits unlocked, it's not so much a problem of being inefficient and more of malicious endangerment.


Agreed. A whodunnit. Angry neighbor perhaps, fed up with the noise. Rival club owner. Something more sinister involving the drug trade or the gangs.

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Monday, January 28, 2013 8:42 AM

AGENTROUKA


Actually, it might be much more banal than that.

If you have en emergency exit, you need to guard it against people being let in unsupervised. If you have some sort of paycard system where you pay for your drinks at the exit when you leave, they may want to prevent people leaving without paying. I think this was the case with this tragedy, too.

It's really a case of being cheap and wanting to save additional equipment and manpower that would be needed to make emergency exits safe.

Basically, the people died because of someone's greed.

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Monday, January 28, 2013 9:43 AM

BYTEMITE


Strange. It seems to me there are much simpler solutions to those problems. Pay for drink, no credit cards, no tab, for example. Then one way doors.

But I suspect Utah clubs are not like other clubs, very tight regulations, many clubs don't even sell alcohol here because it's such a hassle to sort out the minors, so the main draw is the music and bands.

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Monday, January 28, 2013 10:03 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
What was that? I can't hear you over President Obama's illegal recess appoints, Tsars, and executive orders.


And where were you when that fucker Bush did that and worse ?
Hypocrite.

-F

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Monday, January 28, 2013 10:46 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Strange. It seems to me there are much simpler solutions to those problems. Pay for drink, no credit cards, no tab, for example. Then one way doors.

But I suspect Utah clubs are not like other clubs, very tight regulations, many clubs don't even sell alcohol here because it's such a hassle to sort out the minors, so the main draw is the music and bands.




Huh. Here you run a tab, they hold your credit card and your ID; you walk the tab, they charge your card, put a hefty tip on it as well, and they've still got your card and ID. Walking the tab isn't really a problem here. :)

One-way doors for emergency exits are fine. The ones I usually see have a pushbar with a big sign that says "OPEN DOOR - ALARM WILL SOUND!" That tends to deal with people trying to let others in through the side door, especially if they've got the alarm AND a big honking strobing light going off every time someone opens the door, and a bouncer nearby.


But y'all have sufficiently proven my point - we tend to have a lot fewer nightclub mass deaths in the U.S. Why? Ummmm... regulations? Building codes? Yeah, once in a while someone might violate it (I'm lookin' at you, Rhode Island and Great White), but it's not the normal course of business.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Monday, January 28, 2013 11:13 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Byte, part of the problem was
Quote:

Survivors and the police inspector Marcelo Arigony said security guards briefly tried to block people from exiting the club. Brazilian bars routinely make patrons pay their entire tab at the end of the night before they are allowed to leave.

Apparently they didn't block the exit for long, but that appears to be when people really started panicking, not surprisingly! You get hundreds of people rushing toward an exit, something stops them, and tradgedy is the obvious result.

I don't think there's any conspiracy here; we've had our share of these kinds of things. I think the biggest problem was occupancy; the club had a legal occupancy limit of 1,000 people, but according to a state fire official, there were as many as 2,000 in attendance at the time ( http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/27/world/americas/brazil-nightclub-fire/ind
ex.html
]).

Other things contributed too:
Quote:

"People got lost in the corridor that led to the bathrooms and were overcome by toxic smoke that quickly suffocated them," said Capt. de Oliveira.

Indeed, the issue of whether or not any emergency exits, other than the main entrance, were marked or open has become a key focus of the investigation. By several accounts, the club didn't have an emergency way out. More at http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323375204578269641832825
014.html


Apparently arrests have been made:
Quote:

Authorities arrested Monday three men in conjunction with the deaths of more than 200 people in a nightclub fire in southern Brazil, including one owner of the venue and two performers whose pyrotechnics display allegedly went awry and started the blaze.

Apparently that's just "temporary" and were part of efforts to push the investigation forward, something Brazil can do by law; it doesn't mean they will be charged.

It comes down to a certain degree to regulations, etc., regarding clubs, and I would posit that we have better ones here than many countries do.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Monday, January 28, 2013 11:36 AM

JONGSSTRAW


The dead in Brazil can rest in peace with dignity knowing that at least Great White wasn't playing. I also saw today that 44 people were killed in a riot with police concerning the trial for last year's soccer stampede in Egypt which killed 74 people. Sick world.

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Monday, January 28, 2013 11:45 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


From what I heard in a newscast, these appointments have been a practice of both Dem and Repub presidents for 150 years. Suddenly it's a No-No.

Curious.


SGG

Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
What was that? I can't hear you over President Obama's illegal recess appoints, Tsars, and executive orders.


And where were you when that fucker Bush did that and worse ?
Hypocrite.

-F


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Monday, January 28, 2013 11:49 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Unfortunately, unless you have regulations that are enforced, most businesses won't bother themselves with the nuisance of providing a healthy and safe environment for their staff and patrons. These things cost both money and time, both things that management would not be willing to sacrifice unless forced to.

You need proper safety plans that have been rehearsed. you need someone designated to be in charge who knows the procedures. You need unlocked, unblocked clearly marked emergency exits, proper working smoke alarms, fire extinguishers, and in best case scenario a working sprinkler system.

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Monday, January 28, 2013 12:11 PM

BYTEMITE


Well, their lack of concern about liability means they'll be coolin' their heels in the clink for a while. I'm kinda hoping someone decides to make an example out of them.

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Monday, January 28, 2013 2:32 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Unfortunately, unless you have regulations that are enforced, most businesses won't bother themselves with the nuisance of providing a healthy and safe environment for their staff and patrons. These things cost both money and time, both things that management would not be willing to sacrifice unless forced to.

You need proper safety plans that have been rehearsed. you need someone designated to be in charge who knows the procedures. You need unlocked, unblocked clearly marked emergency exits, proper working smoke alarms, fire extinguishers, and in best case scenario a working sprinkler system.




Or, if you listen to the NRA, you need more pyrotechnics.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Monday, January 28, 2013 2:33 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:


Or, if you listen to the NRA, you need more pyrotechnics.





Or armed school children at every venue?

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Monday, January 28, 2013 4:29 PM

BYTEMITE


I was under the impression schoolchildren already were armed. I had friends who regularly brought knives to school.

And I think I might have had a swiss army knife I carried around in my backpack and forgot about, judging by the rusted, dust, and paper encrusted thing I pulled out of there a few years ago.

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Monday, January 28, 2013 4:34 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I was under the impression schoolchildren already were armed. I had friends who regularly brought knives to school.

And I think I might have had a swiss army knife I carried around in my backpack and forgot about, judging by the rusted, dust, and paper encrusted thing I pulled out of there a few years ago.



Exactly, so they should be armed more, with military style assault weapons, and stand guard at nightclubs in Rio. Good solution, eh?

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Monday, January 28, 2013 4:50 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


The unfortunate thing about humanity is that they don't learn stuff unless tragic things happen to teach them, that's the only way things seem to improve, is if people see it happen first, then they can think about how to prevent bad things from happening again. The even more unfortunate thing about humanity is that they forget lessons learnt about such things, so similar tragedies have to happen every now and again or else they will forget and stop doing the things that were learnt to prevent stuff in the past. Man we're dumb.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, January 28, 2013 4:59 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I was under the impression schoolchildren already were armed. I had friends who regularly brought knives to school.

And I think I might have had a swiss army knife I carried around in my backpack and forgot about, judging by the rusted, dust, and paper encrusted thing I pulled out of there a few years ago.



Exactly, so they should be armed more, with military style assault weapons, and stand guard at nightclubs in Rio. Good solution, eh?



Yeaaaaah, I pretty much said nothing about that. Just that at my school kids had knives.

I'd think by know that you'd all be familiar with my particular brand of disturbing and/or morbid non-sequitors.

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Monday, January 28, 2013 5:04 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Not aimed at you in particular, just the madness of the NRA solutions to many things.

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Tuesday, January 29, 2013 9:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Or armed school children at every venue?


Most excellent, Magons; prize for first guffaw of the morning!

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Fri, March 29, 2024 06:20 - 6156 posts
Russia says 60 dead, 145 injured in concert hall raid; Islamic State group claims responsibility
Fri, March 29, 2024 06:18 - 57 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Fri, March 29, 2024 02:54 - 3414 posts
BUILD BACK BETTER!
Fri, March 29, 2024 02:49 - 11 posts
Long List of Celebrities that are Still Here
Fri, March 29, 2024 00:00 - 1 posts
China
Thu, March 28, 2024 22:10 - 447 posts
Biden
Thu, March 28, 2024 22:03 - 853 posts
Well... He was no longer useful to the DNC or the Ukraine Money Laundering Scheme... So justice was served
Thu, March 28, 2024 12:44 - 1 posts
Salon: NBC's Ronna blunder: A failed attempt to appeal to MAGA voters — except they hate her too
Thu, March 28, 2024 07:04 - 1 posts
Russian losses in Ukraine
Wed, March 27, 2024 23:21 - 987 posts
human actions, global climate change, global human solutions
Wed, March 27, 2024 15:03 - 824 posts

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