REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

US economy contracts for 1st time since recession

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Saturday, February 2, 2013 05:57
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 3194
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Wednesday, January 30, 2013 4:29 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



And so it begins.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2013 4:34 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

And so it begins.



Well that is expected when you reduce government spending.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2013 4:49 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

And so it begins.



Well that is expected when you reduce government spending.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.



Only govt has been spending more, not less.

Keep raising that debt limit, though.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, January 30, 2013 4:59 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


In total $ yes, there has been slight increases each year. However those increases are because of mandatory spending on Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security. Discretionary spending has gone down.

The simple fact is that government spending makes up a big part of the economy. If that spending is decreased the economy will shrink. Private spending could never immediately take it's place. Plus we see from the countries in the EU that drastic cuts to government spending only lean to greater slowing of the economy and the need for more such cuts.

The idea that you can cut your way to growth is idiotic.


I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2013 5:07 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Drinking the big govt koolaid, I see.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, January 30, 2013 5:16 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
I have no intelligent argument to counter with because my level of knowledge is limited to slogans and catch phrases so I will use one here.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall



I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2013 5:27 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Seeing how you've resorted to lying & misquoting me, I guess you can ignore reality & have this discussion on your own.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, January 30, 2013 5:37 AM

CHRISISALL


There is no evidence that the economy has contracted. That's lies and thuggery and disinformation. The economy has grown if anything. You economy growth deniers disgust me with you religion. Your 'facts' are nonsense. Everyone knows this. Childish childishness, that's all this is. Keep playing the meme game & drinking the koolaid & whatever else it is you do, you are wrong.


Resident USA Freedom Fornicator

" Crissy, that was great, LOL!! " - Rappy

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Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:07 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Chris, you childish, juvenile, immature, petulant, game-playing, 6 year old who can't offer up any substantive, reasonable reply, other than dole out insults and dismissive, personal comments; stop trying to change the subject or hurl mindless, petty insults--go back to living under your rock (there, I've spared Rap writing all his usual bullshit, aren't I nice?

But yer cute.

The point made was right; unemployment and contraction are partly because of the (very effective) efforts to cut, cut, cut government employees in state as well as federally. That causes more unemployment and people having less to spend. It has also put many states and localities in deep trouble because they haven't got enough people to fill vital jobs, like police and firefighters. States and localities are also suffering because they're in the recession too but don't have the taxes to do what they have to do...again causing layoffs.

It's amusing that Rap had to wait into Obama's second term--some four years--to say the FIRST contraction of his administration is the "beginning". It's to laugh.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:48 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Seeing how you've resorted to lying & misquoting me, I guess you can ignore reality & have this discussion on your own.



Considaring I could make better and more intelligent conservative arguments than you could the conversation would be more productive.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:49 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
(there, I've spared Rap writing all his usual bullshit, aren't I nice?


It was a kindness.


So, this floundering world economy will be with us for like, ever, right? No more giant bubbles, just little ones here & there to occasionally pop, eh?

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Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


OMIGAWD, it's time to panic!!! Look what's happening:



We're all gonna DIE! DIE, I tell you, DIE!

Perspective, anyone?
Quote:

Uncle Sam cut spending and businesses drew down inventories in the fourth quarter of 2012, causing the U.S. economy to contract for the first time in more than three years.

But don't start throwing around the R-word just yet.

"No one I know would seriously call this an indicator of recession," said Bill Hampel, chief economist with the Credit Union National Association.

While a contraction is never encouraging, economists pointed to temporary effects that may have caused a one-time dip, and they see better growth ahead.

It's "the best-looking contraction in U.S. GDP you'll ever see," Paul Ashworth, chief U.S. economist for Capital Economics said in a research note. "The drag from defense spending and inventories is a one-off. The rest of the report is all encouraging."

A large cut in federal spending, primarily on defense, was one of the biggest drags on growth. Defense spending contracted at a 22% annual rate.

Alan Kreuger, head of President Obama's Council of Economic Advisers, attributed the deep decline to the looming sequestration deadline.

"A likely explanation for the sharp decline in Federal defense spending is uncertainty concerning the automatic spending cuts that were scheduled to take effect in January, and are currently scheduled to take effect on March 1st," he said in a blog post.

Defense spending tends to be a volatile number in the GDP report, and is unlikely to decline so dramatically next quarter, Hampel said.

The other major drag came from business inventories declining in the fourth quarter. When that happens, it often signals businesses will have to buy more goods in the upcoming quarter to restock their shelves, which could lead to stronger growth in the first quarter of 2013.

"Businesses were selling in the fourth quarter, but not replacing the stuff on the shelves," Hampel said. "When inventories fall in one quarter, they're really likely to rise the next quarter."

Aside from those two factors, there were positive signs in the report. Consumer spending makes up the largest part of the U.S. economy and accelerated at a 2.2% annual rate in the fourth quarter.

"The basic engine of the economy looks to be in good shape," Hampel said.

Economists are predicting the U.S. economy will bounce back in the first quarter of 2013, and stay on trend with a 2% to 2.5% growth rate seen during the recovery.

A gradual housing recovery is likely to be a big contributor to that growth.

"Today's report is a reminder of the importance of the need for Congress to act to avoid self-inflicted wounds to the economy," Krueger said.

"The momentum in the economy is positive, but not booming," Hampel said.

Wednesday's GDP report is the Commerce Department's first estimate for the fourth quarter figures. The government plans to revise the numbers twice over the next two months. http://money.cnn.com/2013/01/30/news/economy/gdp-report/index.html?hpt
=hp_t3


But then, perspective means nothing, does it? Certainly not to Rap...and I still grin at how LONG he had to wait for some kind of negative sign...

To hell with perspective: We're all gonna DIE! DIE, I tell you!!!

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2013 8:01 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Seeing how you've resorted to lying & misquoting me, I guess you can ignore reality & have this discussion on your own.



Considaring I could make better and more intelligent conservative arguments than you could the conversation would be more productive.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.



Hell, maybe you should. Itd be refreshing to have a non-crazy conservative viewpoint around.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, January 30, 2013 8:09 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:


Hell, maybe you should. Itd be refreshing to have a non-crazy conservative viewpoint around.

I was actually just thinking the same thing, hahahahah!

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Wednesday, January 30, 2013 8:43 AM

JONGSSTRAW


I really don't know what to make of the economy. I do know that 2012 was a great year for my portfolio. I saw an increase of 21% in my mutuals and individual investments value, and that was before any new contributions. For my 401k I contribute the maximum allowed of my salary each week, so the total effect was over 27% total personal wealth growth. A few more years of this and I'll be retiring in style. Plus my home value is starting to make a comeback too. Again, I don't know why and I really don't care. I simply use the Sgt. Schultz financial plan...I know nothing, I see nothing, I hear nothing!

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Wednesday, January 30, 2013 8:55 AM

PENQUIN11


Non crazy conservative viewpoint here:

Government spending doesn't necessarily stimulate the economy, or at least it doesn't once you pass a certain point. Economics points out that there is a certain cap at which outside inputs and government investment become inefficient. I can't pinpoint any one reason for the economy contracting, however the obvious answer is that the housing market and other major industries haven't bounced back from the recession like they were expected. To top it off, we had a service based economy that was backed by a broken health-care system for years. And Obamacare won't really come into action until 2014 (by the way, hopefully it will be modified to be a 2 player system by then). And quite frankly, no amount of government spending would instantly fix either the markets or cure our broken health program that was weighing down our nation. Time is the healer of all great wounds, and we are one hell of a wounded nation- having just gone through the most expensive war in US history (and likely one of the most expensive ever)and suffered a economic recession in 2008.

My largest problem with the government is that of which just about all Americans should have. That being that the US Congress has been embarrassingly bad in recent years, and for those on the more liberal side who think I am pointing fingers I should clarify that for nearly the last 30 years our congresses have been acting irresponsibly on their way to building up our current level of debt; in other words both democrats and republicans are to blame. Now I will state that spending by the government has been extremely high in recent years when looking at government spending over the last 20 years- whereas Congresses since 2008 have spent as much as 10% of the GDP (2008-2009), at that point spending becomes a concern. But on the other hand in 2000 under Bush when the US actually had a surplus instead of a deficit lawmakers chose to balance the budget by instituting tax breaks instead of using the surplus money to pay off our debt. To make matters worse our government has openly been stealing from it's people in half-hazardously taking money out of Social Security...

Anyways sorry for the rant that went way off topic...



"But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it the most?"- Mark Twain

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Wednesday, January 30, 2013 9:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well, you may think it's off topic (tho' I would argue that), but all I can say is STICK AROUND PENGUIN, PLEASE! I for one agree with everything you wrote; there's no question in my mind that there's plenty of guilt to go around on both sides.

I happen to think government spending can help, but exactly as you said, only to a certain point. And I agree that time is the best healer; my problem is that, from what I've seen, the Republicans have done everything they can to stop (or at least slow) that healing in an effort to make Obama look bad and lose. I'm HOPING that now he's won a second term, they might be willing to do more to HELP the recovery...but I'm not holding my breath.

What do you mean by a "2 player system"? I'd really like to know. I know us lefties hope for an eventual single-payor system, but I see flaws there too and would love to find any better solution.

All in all, the only thing wrong with your "rant" (and I'd hardly call it that) is that I can't debate it! I'm always desperate for a "non-crazy conservative" person here, 'cuz I KNOW there are good ideas on the right just as there are on the left, but we seldom get such a viewpoint, so I sincerely hope you hang around.

I kinda think the righties here would say you are pretty left, or at the very least a moderate conservative (which won't endear you to them!), but I think there are a LOT of intelligent right-wingers out there and I'd love to talk to them.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2013 11:47 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by PENQUIN11:I can't pinpoint any one reason for the economy contracting, however the obvious answer is that the housing market and other major industries haven't bounced back from the recession like they were expected.


Well in this case one of the major reasons for the small contraction (0.1%)is the reduction of military spending.

http://money.cnn.com/2013/01/30/news/economy/gdp-report/

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2013 12:19 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Agreed. I've been reading that too. Which makes me wonder what will happen if the damned legislators can't get together and do something before sequestration makes it even WORSE...sigh...

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, January 30, 2013 5:10 PM

PENQUIN11


I have liberal views as well as conservative ones (with the conservative views slightly out wieghing the liberal ones). I am socially liberal as I support topics such as gay rights (just because I diagree with it doesnt mean I should have the right to tell 2 *consenting adult persons* who love each other whether they can or cannot marry), abortion as an option, and ect. However I am strongly conservative in my economic views in my view of the size of the government (a smaller govt is better in my opinion). I don't play the blame game, as I could care less about who (repub vs democrat) was running the country as long as they are doing a good job. I think you could call me a libertarian- except one who doesn't believe that the US should isolate itself (actually just about the only spending I wish we would increase is Foriegn Aid)...

Also a 2 player healthcare system would be similar to what Germany runs, if that helps...

"But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it the most?"- Mark Twain

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Thursday, January 31, 2013 2:57 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


I would say you are a very sane fiscal conservative. Which I think is great. Welcome Penquin11!


I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, January 31, 2013 7:05 AM

STORYMARK


So reasonable, the rabid righties will likely lump Penguin in with the liberals toot suite.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, January 31, 2013 10:00 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
So reasonable, the rabid righties will likely lump Penguin in with the liberals toot suite.

Lack of a rabid hate of liberal policy or thinking of any kind MAKES you a Librul here.

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Friday, February 1, 2013 5:01 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Jobless Rate Edges Up to 7.9%

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/02/business/economy/us-adds-157000-jobs
-unemployment-rate-edges-up-to-7-9.html?_r=0


Higher unemployment, contracting economy... all is well!

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, February 1, 2013 6:06 AM

STORYMARK


Aaaaand the grand total of people who put any stoick in au "the economy's on fire" rappy's assessment of the economy: no-fucking-one.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, February 1, 2013 6:10 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:


Aaaaand the grand total of people who put any stoick in au "the economy's on fire" rappy's assessment of the economy: no-fucking-one.




I'm reporting the actual news. Headlines and links included. If you have an issue w/ what I post, take it up w/ those who report it.

That is, if you have any stoick in what THEY are telling you.



"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, February 1, 2013 6:19 AM

STORYMARK


My issue is the glee with which you post it.

Just like the rest of the GOP - rather see the country fail than anything good happen under Obama. Your derangement is damaging the country you "claim" to care so much about.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, February 1, 2013 6:19 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yes, Penguin, sounds like you are a lot more like a libertarian...or better yet, someone who doesn't FIT in a square box! I like those--I'm registered Independent, but according to some here, "rabidly liberal", and we have some others who don't fit the mold, which is cool.

But yes, your views will NOT endear you to those who call themselves "truly conservative" here, so be prepared. Sounds like you can handle yourself anyway, so stick around, my friend!

As to the rest, "What Mark said", in spades. I, too, am sick of watching the UN-thinking righties at every piece of news indicating the country is NOT doing well...and silent as the grave (or finding reasons to rationalize it ain't so) when there's good news.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Friday, February 1, 2013 6:21 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
My issue is the glee with which you post it.

Just like the rest of the GOP - rather see the country fail than anything good happen under Obama. Your derangement is damaging the country you "claim" to care so much about.



You're fussy at the " glee " of me saying this is exactly what would happen under Obama ?

Really?

Huh.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, February 1, 2013 6:22 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Yeah, but it's only been four years of record high unemployment, under-employment, and dismal economic growth. There's still four more long years of hope that Obama's policies will work.

"Hope is a good thing." Andy Dufresne

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Friday, February 1, 2013 9:18 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Yeah, but it's only been four years of record high unemployment, under-employment, and dismal economic growth. There's still four more long years of hope that Obama's policies will work.


Obama's policies won't fix what's wrong, that's clear enough to see, but Romney would have been hard at work putting the final nails in the middle-class coffin (not to mention that zombie apocalypse thing Joss brought up), so I'm happy that once again, I got to vote for the lesser of two assholes.

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Friday, February 1, 2013 9:42 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Bingo Chris. We are not yet out of a hole which took a long time to dig, but of course to the righties that's Obama's fault. IF Republicans in Congress hadn't decided to delibertely obstruct everything (EVEN those things which they supported prior to Obama supporting them!), I believe we'd be much further down the road to recovery than we are.

It's easy to blame Obama for our not being totally recovered yet. The fact that, in four years, our situation has been IMPROVED means nothing to those who are determined to hate him, but it IS a fact nonetheless. And there are many things--as I said, even those Republicans originally postulated or supported--which would have made recovery faster and more stable, but until/unless they change their INTENT, it will continue to be an uphill battle. Thankfully the American people saw what you did about Romney and didn't put him in power.

What has "started" under Obama is the beginnings of digging us out of a hole that took some pretty massive activities to put us INTO, over eight years. Not just by Bush, but without his curbing a number of the contributing factors, some other unrelated factors, and his willingness to increase the wealth of the rich to the detriment of the other classes AND the country as a whole.

It isn't the "glee" expressed at one or another sign of Obama's term not having fixed everything, it is the joy with which those on the right take pleasure in the possibility of things going in a negative direction for our country. Not to mention, in this case, the glee at the first (even small) sign which he could grasp that MIGHT show the beginning of the end for the country, only because it's a negative reflection on one man. What a lovely thing in which to take pleasure, and oh, how it reflects the person doing so!

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Friday, February 1, 2013 9:59 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Yeah, but it's only been four years of record high unemployment, under-employment, and dismal economic growth. There's still four more long years of hope that Obama's policies will work.

"Hope is a good thing." Andy Dufresne



You mean Obama's policies as implemened through the GOP filter.

Remember the president called for additional stimulas and never got it.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, February 1, 2013 10:12 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
IF Republicans in Congress hadn't decided to deliberately obstruct everything (EVEN those things which they supported prior to Obama supporting them!), I believe we'd be much further down the road to recovery than we are.


That's entirely possible. But we can't know for sure since the tea/scumbags want so desperately for this nation to fall to its knees so they can take over next time.

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Friday, February 1, 2013 11:17 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yes, Nick, and yes, Chris.

The old "are we better off..." thing can be answered easily: Yes, we are. Just a few points:
Quote:

Barack Obama's Presidency has been shaped by the 2008 financial crisis. Obama has been most severely criticized for not reducing unemployment below 8%. However, he can't force businesses to hire. Corporations have had record earnings, and are sitting on mountains of cash. They are using those funds to pay out dividends and buy up their stocks. The problem is insufficient consumer demand. Businesses won't hire until they are more confident demand is sustainable. Obama submitted the Americans Jobs Act in September 2011. It was criticized for having the same elements as the Stimulus Act, even though those policies worked [to an extent].

In February 2009, Congress approved Obama's $787 billion economic stimulus package. It gave tax cuts, extended unemployment benefits and expedited funds for public works projects. In just seven months, it pumped $241.9 billion to the economy, stirring growth to a robust 3.9% by early 2010. Unemployment fell to 9.5%, from its 2009 peak of 10.2%. More at http://useconomy.about.com/od/people/p/President-Barack-Obama-Economic
-Policies.htm
]
Now it is at

Check out Politifact's comparison between 2008 and 2012 ( http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/jun/01/scorecard-
economy-obama/
]). Some of their facts are incomplete because of when it was done, but it's a start. Take 2008 out and start with 2009, because that's both where we were as a result of the previous administration and Obama's policies hadn't had a chance to take effect.

A few facts:

In 2009, Unemployment rate was 7.8%. It went up to 9.7% in 2010, still reflective of the recession. Now it is at 7.9%. There are numerous reasons, including
Quote:

Older workers are increasingly delaying retirement and continuing to work past age 65, staying in jobs that otherwise would normally be filled by younger workers. According to data from the Census Bureau, the share of workers ages 65-plus in the labor force jumped from 12% in 1990 to 16% in 2010.

"We will have to work a lot longer to get by with less. It's just getting a lot more expensive to be old than it used to be," Olivia Mitchell, professor of economics and executive director of Pension Research Council at Wharton School of Business, told USA Today.


Nonetheless, it's been brought down almost 2%, and was lower than 2009 in December 2012. Since then, some contributory factors are: "The government continued to shed workers, a trend that began four years ago." Thank you, Republicans. "The steep spending cuts set to kick in next month have kept scores of employers from expanding, investing and adding workers. Many more have simply let people go in anticipation of the cuts." Again, thank you Republicans for giving us sequestration. State and local governments have been forced to cut deeply and shed jobs in response to fiscal challenges. Again, thank you Republicans (the nuances of cuts to federal, state and local governments you'll have to look for yourselves, but it's there, and most of it brought about by Republican state and federal legislators seeking "smaller government"). Federal employment is at historic lows relative to the overall workforce (see chart at http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/Documents/20
120502_EconomicGrowth.pdf
)

Another:

In the last quarter of 2008, yearly GDP was -8.9%! It's just taken a dive, but as of the last quarter of 2012 was at 2%. Not good, but a major improvement over what Bush left us with!


And:

The median home sale price was $208,600 in 2009. As of January, it was $180,800, but it's fluctuated a lot and now:
Quote:

Without question, 2012 was the long hoped-for turnaround year for the housing market. The RE/MAX National Housing Report shows a broad recovery across the country, with both home sales and prices rising almost every month of the year. For December, the number of home sales was up 3.8% and the median price of those homes rose 7.6%.More at http://files.a2.remax.com/content/REMAX_National_Housing_Report_Januar
y_2013.pdf

Quote:

Existing-home sales eased in December but are well above a year ago, while limited inventory maintained the upward momentum in home prices, according to the National Association of Realtors®. Total sales in 2012 were the highest in five years, while the annual price rose the most since 2005.More at http://www.realtor.org/news-releases/2012/10/existing-home-sales-slip-
in-december-prices-continue-to-rise-2012-totals-up



A few more:

-- Growth in the U.S. has outpaced that of other advanced economies affected by the global
financial crisis.

-- Despite the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression and a series of shocks in its aftermath, the economy has gradually strengthened since mid-2009.

-- Despite challenges, growth in private demand has outpaced GDP growth since late 2010

-- Regulations are not impeding business lending or investment

-- Regulations have not dampened corporate profits, even in the industries undergoing significant regulatory change, such as energy, health care, and finance.

The above points charted at http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/Documents/20
120502_EconomicGrowth.pdf


Outstanding credit card debt, household debt rates and mortgage rates are all also down ( http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/jun/01/scorecard-
economy-obama/
)

Then there's corporate profits...well, we know how THOSE have been going...as well as the wealth of the richest Americans.

It's a mixed bag, but overall an improvement from the last administration. Nothing is simple, especially not in finance, and everything fluctuates. But the fact is that we HAVE been improving since 2008, and even more since things bottomed out in 2009 as a result of where the previous administration left us.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Friday, February 1, 2013 11:44 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Obama's policies won't fix what's wrong, that's clear enough to see,


As I said the other day, Wall Street took good care of me in 2012. All the other stuff only applies to people I don't know.

Quote:

but Romney would have been hard at work putting the final nails in the middle-class coffin (not to mention that zombie apocalypse thing Joss brought up), so I'm happy that once again, I got to vote for the lesser of two assholes.

Smaaaart! Why vote for a capitalist with a successful track record when there are so many more zombie stories to tell on tv and the movies! Walking Dead is back on AMC in 2 weeks!!

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Friday, February 1, 2013 11:49 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Yeah, but it's only been four years of record high unemployment, under-employment, and dismal economic growth. There's still four more long years of hope that Obama's policies will work.

"Hope is a good thing." Andy Dufresne



What I found hi-larious, and interesting, was how Obama-mania had even infected the Dr Who series,( The End of Time ) back in 2009. In it, Obama was going to save us all by issuing his grand policy to " end the recession ".

Too bad he chose to work on ObamaCare instead, and said 'screw the economy'.

Oh well.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, February 1, 2013 3:19 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
What I found hi-larious, and interesting, was how Obama-mania had even infected the Dr Who series,( The End of Time ) back in 2009. In it, Obama was going to save us all by issuing his grand policy to " end the recession ".

Too bad he chose to work on ObamaCare instead, and said 'screw the economy'.

Oh well.



Well had the GOP not taken the stated position of doing everything to block him regardless of the rest of the country we could have got health care out the way pretty quick.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, February 1, 2013 5:18 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

What I found hi-larious, and interesting, was how Obama-mania had even infected the Dr Who series,( The End of Time ) back in 2009. In it, Obama was going to save us all by issuing his grand policy to " end the recession ".

Too bad he chose to work on ObamaCare instead, and said 'screw the economy'.

Oh well.



Well had the GOP not taken the stated position of doing everything to block him regardless of the rest of the country we could have got health care out the way pretty quick.


That's pretty far from how things went. Obama did try to tackle the economy long before he pivoted to Healthcare. Democrats had the majorities in the House and the Senate for the first two years of Obama's presidency.

The first economic legislation they passed was the Stimulus, or American Recovery and Reinvestment Act which Obama signed into law on Feb. 17, 2009. The bill included $831 billion in Govt. spending for domestic and intl. programs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act_of
_2009



The next economic legislation they passed was the Omnibus Appropriations Act which Obama signed into law on March 11, 2009. The bill included $410 billion in Govt. spending for domestic programs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Omnibus_spending_bill

So...within a mere 7 weeks after Obama was sworn in as President those two spending bills became the law. If Republicans were trying to block them they sure as heck failed miserably.

As Congress was fast-tracking both spending bills to give to Obama the "public" was told there were "shovel-ready jobs" ready to go. Obama's economists also said that unemployment would peak at 8.5%

When the $trillion+ was rolling out from Omnibus and Stimulus, Obama admitted there were no shovel-ready jobs, and the unemployment rate soared to 10%.

In summary...2009-2011....all Obama and Democrats...with worse results to show for all the hundreds of billions spent and wasted.

And then as all that was going down the crapper, Obama came up with Healthcare as his next push. Once again Republicans were in no position to stop it, and ultimately both houses of Congress under Democrat majority passed it for Obama to sign into law. It didn't get one single vote from Republicans in either the Senate or the House. It passed easily in Pelosi's House, and although Reid had to maneuver and convince fellow Democrats a bit in the Senate, the politically lopsided law passed anyhow.

So all in all, Obama got everything he wanted during his first two years. How Republicans got blamed for blocking him before 2011 is a testament to the power of the corrupt Obama-loving press.

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Saturday, February 2, 2013 4:45 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


If you listen to any economist, that is really and economist and not a fox new person playing one, they will tell you that the stimulus did help. It put a floor under the falling economy. The whole 8.5% unemployment rate was an estimate made before anyone knew how bad the situation was. The very next thing a real economist will tell you is that the stimulus was far to small and targeted the wrong things. Not waste mind you because no money ever pumped into the economy has no impact.

Now just because things got passed does not mean the GOP was standing in the way. The stimulus and the health care law both took 60 votes to pass because of a GOP filibuster.

Had that no been the case for the health care law we may have been able to get additional stimulus passed.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, February 2, 2013 4:53 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Well had the GOP not taken the stated position of doing everything to block him regardless of the rest of the country we could have got health care out the way pretty quick.




The US govt's control of 1/6th of the US economy, when there was a recession going on, was the absolute worst thing this President could do, and yet he and the Dems still did it. At least the GOP had sense enough to not have a single member vote for it, because unless major changes can be made , it'll destroy this nation.

And nickerson, you're a full blown gullible Obamabot, when you spout off the inane nonsense you do. It wasn't 8.5 % unemployment unless the stimulus bill got passed, it was 8 %. And even w/ the stimulus, the unemployment STILL soared past that level, and is basically still AT that level today.

And spare me the ' it woudl have been worse ', or that 'they didn't know how bad it REALLY was' routine. Good grief, lay off the kool-aid, please !

THEY KNEW HOW BAD IT WAS! They ALWAYS knew.



"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, February 2, 2013 5:14 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
The US govt's control of 1/6th of the US economy, when there was a recession going on, was the absolute worst thing this President could do, and yet he and the Dems still did it.



What we should have cut spending and shrank the only part of the economy that was not in free fall?

At the beginning no one knew how bad this was going to be and yes it is an unequivocal fact that the stimulus helped. The EU tried the other way and are worse off than the US is. They cut spending we did not.

Even this latest little contraction shows the effect that cutting government spending can have right now and yet you happy ignore it. In the end I would rather drink the kool-aid than be on the reality altering drugs you are on.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, February 2, 2013 5:22 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


nickerson - go give yourself a stimulus by taking some cash on your credit card, and tell me how it helps you.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, February 2, 2013 5:24 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
nickerson - go give yourself a stimulus by taking some cash on your credit card, and tell me how it helps you.



I'm I the government? Do I have the same powers as the government? Plus if I did that it would not help me but it would help the businesses I bought from.

I guess you missed that because your simple lizard brain can only think about itself.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, February 2, 2013 5:28 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Quote:

I'm I the government? Do I have the same powers as the government?


Thankfully, no. But still, those " in power " now are even more dangerous than you can possibly comprehend.

This is a useless endeavor, trying to deal w/ the likes of you, so blinded by the Emperor's new clothes.

You're simply incapable of seeing reality.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, February 2, 2013 5:33 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


In which case, Rap should go start a couple of wars on HIS credit card, and follow up by keeping them off the books, so nobody notices.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Saturday, February 2, 2013 5:46 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Thankfully, no. But still, those " in power " now are even more dangerous than you can possibly comprehend.

This is a useless endeavor, trying to deal w/ the likes of you, so blinded by the Emperor's new clothes.

You're simply incapable of seeing reality.



I love the way you don't address anything I said, you simple switch gears and make yet another idiot statement.

Those in power have not destroyed the country like you said they would. The economy, even with this slight contraction, is still improving.

The reality is that you have no idea about the things you talk about.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, February 2, 2013 5:49 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

In which case, Rap should go start a couple of wars on HIS credit card, and follow up by keeping them off the books, so nobody notices.



You mean wars voted on by Congress, and approved, with bi-partisan support ?

Talk about gnawing on an old bone.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, February 2, 2013 5:51 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
You mean wars voted on by Congress, and approved, with bi-partisan support?



...add in under false pretenses.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, February 2, 2013 5:51 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Thankfully, no. But still, those " in power " now are even more dangerous than you can possibly comprehend.

This is a useless endeavor, trying to deal w/ the likes of you, so blinded by the Emperor's new clothes.

You're simply incapable of seeing reality.



I love the way you don't address anything I said, you simple switch gears and make yet another idiot statement.

Those in power have not destroyed the country like you said they would. The economy, even with this slight contraction, is still improving.

The reality is that you have no idea about the things you talk about.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.



I do have a full idea, but you're just too naive to understand the issue. Waste of my time, is all.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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