REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Kentucky boy, 5, shoots 2-year-old sister with .22 rifle he received as a gift

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Sunday, May 12, 2013 02:22
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 5016
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Thursday, May 2, 2013 5:05 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

BURKESVILLE, Kentucky-- A 5-year-old boy accidentally shot his 2-year-old sister to death in rural southern Kentucky with a rifle he had received as a gift last year, authorities said.

The children's mother was home at the time of the shooting Tuesday afternoon but had stepped out to the front porch for a few minutes and "she heard the gun go off," Cumberland County Coroner Gary White said. He said the rifle was kept in a corner and the family didn't realize a bullet was left inside it.

White told the Lexington Herald-Leader the boy received the .22-caliber rifle as a gift.

"It's a Crickett," White said, referring to a company that specifically makes guns, clothes and books for children. "It's a little rifle for a kid. ... The little boy's used to shooting the little gun."

The shooting, while accidental, highlights a cultural divide in the gun debate. While many suburban and urban areas work to keep guns out of the hands of children, it's not uncommon for youths in rural areas to own guns for target practice and hunting.

"Down in Kentucky where we're from, you know, guns are passed down from generation to generation. You start at a young age with guns for hunting and everything," White said Wednesday. What is more unusual than a child having a gun, he said, is "that a kid would get shot with it."

"Accidents happen with guns. They thought the gun was actually unloaded, and it wasn't," the coroner said.

White said the girl died of a single gunshot wound to the chest area.

In a brief news release, state police said the shooting occurred when the boy was "playing" with the rifle, but did not elaborate. It is not clear whether any charges will be filed, said Kentucky State Police spokesman Trooper Billy Gregory.

"I think it's too early to say whether there will or won't be," Gregory said.

The AP is not identifying the children because of their ages.

The company that made the gun, Milton, Pa.-based Keystone Sporting Arms, produced 60,000 Crickett and Chipmunk rifles in 2008, according to its website. It also makes guns for adults, but most of its products are geared toward children. The smaller guns come in all sorts of colors, including blue and pink.

The company's slogan is "my first rifle" and its website has a "Kids Corner" section where pictures of young boys and girls are displayed, most of them showing the children at shooting ranges and on bird and deer hunts. The smaller rifles are sold with a mount to use at a shooting range.

"The goal of KSA is to instill gun safety in the minds of youth shooters and encourage them to gain the knowledge and respect that hunting and shooting activities require and deserve," the website said.

No one at the company answered the phone Wednesday. http://blog.gulflive.com/mississippi-press-news/2013/05/kentucky_boy_5
_shoots_2-year-o.html


Pink and blue. What can you say?

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Thursday, May 2, 2013 6:10 AM

AGENTROUKA


Parent fail. Massive parent fail.

They store a deadly weapon by leaning it against a wall? They don't check whether it's still loaded? They leave the kids alone with it??

Teachings kids gun safety by exposing them to responsible use early? NOT that.

That poor child will have to live with the fact that he killed his little sister for the rest of his life. Because his parents were negligent enough to make that possible. That's barely fathomable. Just so unnecessary and preventable.

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Thursday, May 2, 2013 6:19 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

That poor child will have to live with the fact that he killed his little sister for the rest of his life. Because his parents were negligent enough to make that possible. That's barely fathomable. Just so unnecessary and preventable.



That he will. One of my best friends was the surviving child in one such incident - he was 4 at the time, I believe. It did permanent psychological and emotional damage.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, May 2, 2013 8:46 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!




Same thing happened to General Chuck Yeager (Jäger or Jaeger, German: "hunter"), , except he watched his brother kill his sister.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Yeager
http://www.chuckyeager.com

Then Chuck went on to murder 100s or 1000s of civilian men, women and children in Gemmany for the US Govt in World War 2, hunting them down like dogs with his P51 Mustang as they ran through their farm fields.



So you see, you should give up your guns so the US Govt can kill you.

Makes perfect sense, dont it?



Quote:

HALFWAY, OR -- Masked intruders entered a school with real guns and opened fire on meeting room full of teachers using fake "blank" rounds, which make a realistic noise but do not fire a projectile. The men were actually employees of the government school paid to test the terror readiness of the staff. The teachers were terrified, so the drill was evidently a success.

These drills are incredibly dangerous because the people being surprised by the fake attacker may very well fight back with lethal force. There have also been incidents where people experiencing surprise terror drills have had heart attacks or asthma attacks during the panic.

www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2013/04/gunfire_an
d_moments_of_fear_as.html



Abortion doctors murder 10-million Amerikan kids every year, often drowning them in toilets, paid for by Obama.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/04/30/jurors-begin-deliberations-in-tri
al-philly-abortion-doctor-charged-with-murder
/
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/guide-philadelphia-abortion-doctor-
murder-case-19086816

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2013/05/02/jurors-in-gosnell-abortion
-murder-trial-focus-first-on-aide-at-clinic
/




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Thursday, May 2, 2013 8:50 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Could you please just Darwin your crazy ass out of the humnan race as soon as possible?

Thanks.

Signed - The sane world.


Ditto



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Thursday, May 2, 2013 11:11 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


What sort of batshit insane company makes guns for children, for crying out loud.

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Thursday, May 2, 2013 11:16 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Pretty high price to pay for a lesson in being responsible.

Mom could have just as easily left the back deck to go inside and check on something, and the 2 year old could have fallen in a pool.

Accidents happen. Hopefully you learn from them. If not, expect more of the same.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, May 2, 2013 2:50 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


New NRA slogan: "Be sure to protect your 4-year-old's Second Amendment rights. Give him a lethal toy for his birthday."

Wonder if the kid wouldda passed a background check?

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Friday, May 3, 2013 5:41 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
New NRA slogan: "Be sure to protect your 4-year-old's Second Amendment rights. Give him a lethal toy for his birthday."

Wonder if the kid wouldda passed a background check?



Background checks are a violation of his rights, remember.

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Saturday, May 4, 2013 7:25 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

What sort of batshit insane company makes guns for children, for crying out loud.

Amuric'n ones, of course. Gotta start 'em early, y'know...



"My sister and I shoot both the crickett and rossi single shot .22 "


(Go to 2:50; ain't she cute, with her little pink rifle?)

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Saturday, May 4, 2013 10:16 PM

AGENTROUKA


Is it odd that I'm most offended by the idea that they sell these weapons in toy colors?

It wouldn't be my choice, but I'm not on principle opposed to parents introducing their kids to shooting as a sport, and purchasing guns that come in kid-size as a consequence.

But that should always go hand in hand with teaching them utter respect for guns as deadly weapons and the kids should never ever have unsupervised access to these, and all rules of safe storage and handling should apply to them.

(It seems many people are incapable of adhering to that, leading to tragedy, which is a REAL issue that needs addressing.)

I don't see how a PINK weapon, which implies it's a harmless toy, could encourage such respect. It's a deadly weapon. Shouldn't that warrant some solemnity? The disconnect there is deeply startling.

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Sunday, May 5, 2013 3:17 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


No, you're right on target. Because the mentality it illustrates is that they DON'T think of it as a deadly weapon, but as a "toy". The marketing makes it patently obvious:

This is an NRA bib and child’s t-shirt:






They're taking heat since the story came out:
Quote:

Apparently the backlash is coming and coming fast. Crickett's Website is currently disabled (it redirects to a Red Hat placeholder page), and Chipmunk appears to have deleted the pictures from its "Kids Corner" section where kids could pose with their guns. But to give you an idea of how Keystone was marketing its goods, check out this video on Crickett's YouTube



The emphasis is on FUN; that's what toys are for, right?
Quote:

In the days since the shooting, Keystone has been singled out for making and marketing guns to kids. "At least one gun-maker is specifically marketing guns to kids," the Daily Kos reported.

At least one? Here's a list of 20 http://www.ocshooters.com/Gen/kidshooting/youth-firearms.htm]. Google "youth .22" and find 87 models available from Bud's Gun Shop in Lexington, Kentucky, a couple hours' drive from the house where the girl was killed. It's not just rifles. Google "youth 20 gauge" and find as many models of short-stock 20-gauges. Want advice on what handgun is best for your kid? Guns & Ammo magazine says the "Beretta U22 Neo, Browning Buck Mark and the Ruger Mark III, just to name a few"; the Smith & Wesson forums agree on the Buck Mark and the Ruger and add the S&W 22A.

Keystone appears to have been especially aggressive in marketing its youth guns, which are popular. The company produced 60,000 of its Crickett and Chipmunk models in 2008, according to its website. The guns cost just over $100 and are sold as "My First Rifle." The company had maintained a photo gallery of kids holding guns, now taken down. There's a video ad for the Crickett featuring an overjoyed kid getting one from his dad. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/03/gun-maker-crickett-childre
n-marketing
]

Note the child at the bottom right...!!! Does this indicate how a child and a gun are viewed, or what?

There is the very basic fact that a gun in the hands of a child is just plain unsafe, period. Even if you try HARD to instill the fact that it's dangerous in the child, are children capable of making decisions when holding a deadly weapon? One has only to think about it briefly, and of course we have more than enough examples all the time of kids and ADULT guns "going wrong", so a pretty pink rifle? ...


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Sunday, May 5, 2013 3:21 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Pretty high price to pay for a lesson in being responsible.

Mom could have just as easily left the back deck to go inside and check on something, and the 2 year old could have fallen in a pool.

Accidents happen. Hopefully you learn from them. If not, expect more of the same.



Children 1 through 14 are 11 times more likely to drown than be killed in a firearms accident (726 vs. 62), and much more likely to die in a fire (303), or be poisoned (94), not to mention the number who die in transport accidents (1506). http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/deaths_2010_release.pdf

You also have to wonder how many of the 7549 15-24 year olds who died in auto accidents were driving cars that were gifts from their parents.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Sunday, May 5, 2013 3:24 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


You're blinded by your own ideology, so there is no capacity to have discussion on this issue.

How many 5 year old children drive cars?

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Sunday, May 5, 2013 3:57 AM

AGENTROUKA


I wonder why the drowning comparison keeps being made. How is it relevant to irresponsibility in gun culture?

And how many people are advocating putting swimming pools into regular class rooms to make children safer, while we're at it? How many companies market pink flamethrowers for children?

You'll find few children accidentally stabbing or drowning or burning or running over their 2-year-old sister with a car. But a surprising number of accidental shootings involving weapons that adults treated irresponsibly.

At the very least, the discussion needs to be aimed at acknowledging the danger and condemning the cavalier attitude that far too many parents/adults around children seem to take toward gun safety.

It makes me furious that often the parents aren't even facing criminal charges when their own neglect leads to tragedy. I get the reasoning about disrupting the rest of the family further, but it also implies relieving them of the responsibility they carry. Losing their child is davastating but avoiding legal consequences implies that it's okay as long as it's your own child (i.e. property) that is injured or killed. I find that worrying.

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Sunday, May 5, 2013 6:14 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"... I'm not on principle opposed to parents introducing their kids to shooting as a sport, and purchasing guns that come in kid-size as a consequence."

I am - depending on age. All cultures that I've looked at understand that there are ages where children are treated like infants, ages of learning, and ages of adulthood with adulthood privileges and responsibilities. The exception seems to be the US where parents are allowed to act like irresponsible children, while children are given adult privileges.

BTW, I couldn't help but notice how in many of those 'cute' photos of children with guns, the children were fair-skinned, blond-haired and blue-eyed. I wonder how people would take it of those children were black or Hispanic, dressed gangster-style with 9mm handguns. Or if they were Middle Eastern jihadist teens carry assault weapons.

Would that suddenly transform their views of the 'rights' of children to weapons?

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Sunday, May 5, 2013 7:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

You're blinded by your own ideology, so there is no capacity to have discussion on this issue.

Bingo.

Rouka, in my opinion the "comparison" with other ways children/people die is because they need to find SOMETHING that causes death so they can say "See? Guns are no worse than _______________". It's a false comparison at best, but the only one they can come up with. Swimming pools are a pretty pathetic effort, and cars don't work when you're trying to draw a comparison at all, since we KNOW cars are dangerous and that's why we don't let children play with them.

But what else can they come up with?

What's amusing is that we all know we need cars, they are a fact of life; that they cause death is horrible and we do everything we can, from LICENSING their use to MANDATING safety features in them to putting people in jail for driving them when drunk (even if they didn't cause an accident). Guns, on the other hand, have no such restrictions, despite not being necessary to get a job or function in today's society. In other words, the comparison SHOULD be that we SHOULD license guns, mandate safety features, etc., etc., but it never comes out that way.


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Sunday, May 5, 2013 8:47 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


If you missed it in the other thread, as of 2010:
Quote:

Guns still kill twice as many children and young people as cancer, five times as many than heart disease and 15 times more than infection, according to the New England Journal of Medicine ( http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1215606 )."


You can't download the chart unless you're a subscriber, so I copied it manually (the original is available at the link). Think about it:



Reminder: I DO NOT WANT TO TAKE AWAY ANYONE'S GUNS, remember? I argue for SOME logical restrictions to the number of guns out there and who is allowed to have them. And I certainly argue against children having guns of ANY kind!


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Sunday, May 5, 2013 12:41 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:


What's amusing is that we all know we need cars, they are a fact of life; that they cause death is horrible and we do everything we can, from LICENSING their use to MANDATING safety features in them to putting people in jail for driving them when drunk (even if they didn't cause an accident). Guns, on the other hand, have no such restrictions, despite not being necessary to get a job or function in today's society. In other words, the comparison SHOULD be that we SHOULD license guns, mandate safety features, etc., etc., but it never comes out that way.




And why we generally don't give children knives, crossbows, nunchuckas et al as presents unless you are a lunatic.

In my neck of the woods, giving children toy guns is generally frowned upon, so the idea of giving them the real thing is beyond comprehension, let alone the idea that you would have a loaded weapon, any loaded weapon lying around the house would appear to be criminal negligent.

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Sunday, May 5, 2013 12:45 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


If you have a swimming pool on your property, don't your homeowner's insurance rates go up?

If you're a 16 year-old driver with a Corvette, don't you likely pay higher insurance rates than if you're a 45 year-old mom with a minivan?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Sunday, May 5, 2013 12:48 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:


You can't download the chart unless you're a subscriber, so I copied it manually (the original is available at the link).




You could just take a screenshot of it; that's what I do with stuff that doesn't want to load or isn't in JPEG format. Take a screenshot, convert it to JPEG, upload to an image host (or facebook), then link that. Takes about two minutes, tops.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Sunday, May 5, 2013 1:01 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


And the hits keep coming...

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/05/05/18068523-six-year-old-criti
cal-after-being-shot-by-her-13-year-old-brother?lite




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Sunday, May 5, 2013 5:57 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


So far this year more Americans have been killed on U.S. soil by toddlers than by terrorists.






"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Sunday, May 5, 2013 6:10 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I'm sure the NRA and the idiots on the right will blame it all on Hollywood and video games, though. I'm sure that giving kids real guns that look like toys played no part at all in the fact that they used their guns to kill others.

Guns don't kill people. Toddlers kill people. #NRALogic



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Sunday, May 5, 2013 6:37 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.





So far this year more Americans have been killed on U.S. soil by toddlers than by terrorists.



HA HA HA HA ... ouch ... HA HA HA HA HA Ha ha ha ha ha ...

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Monday, May 6, 2013 2:50 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
How many 5 year old children drive cars?



At least one.
http://www.kait8.com/story/19602984/child-run-over-by-car-after-sister
-releases-parking-brake


However, many die due to parents, or drivers of other cars, who exhibit bad judgement or failure to follow safety rules.

Then again, we're coming up on high school graduation shortly, and the news will again be full of stories of teens who die crashing their new graduation present Beemer or Mustang. So are Ford and BMW to blame? The kids? The parents?


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, May 6, 2013 2:56 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I wonder why the drowning comparison keeps being made. How is it relevant to irresponsibility in gun culture?



It's relevent to parental irresponsibility in general.

How many times when a child drowns in the family pool do you hear the parent say "But he was just out of my sight for a minute"?

If you have a pool, or firearms, or a swing set, or household cleaners, or sharp knives, or power tools, or any of a number of possibly dangerous things, you really have to think about how to best prevent your child from getting hold of them. If you don't, it's not the gun's or pool's, or knife's fault.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, May 6, 2013 2:57 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
If you missed it in the other thread, as of 2010:
Quote:

Guns still kill twice as many children and young people as cancer, five times as many than heart disease and 15 times more than infection, according to the New England Journal of Medicine ( http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1215606 )."


You can't download the chart unless you're a subscriber, so I copied it manually (the original is available at the link). Think about it:





Quote:

Reminder: I DO NOT WANT TO TAKE AWAY ANYONE'S GUNS, remember? I argue for SOME logical restrictions to the number of guns out there and who is allowed to have them. And I certainly argue against children having guns of ANY kind, much less guns hidden in their bedrooms!




Kind of a deceptive graph, when you note that it includes "children" ages 1 through 24.

If you look at a finer breakdown, you see firearms homicides for under 1 year at 11, 1 through 4 at 43, 5 through 14 at 165, and 15 through 24 at 3889. So it's not elementary school kids that are being shot.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/deaths_2010_release.pdf See table 10.

If you look at the under-15 group, firearms deaths, accidental or homicide, are way down on the list.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."


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Monday, May 6, 2013 3:05 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
...since we KNOW cars are dangerous and that's why we don't let children play with them.












"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, May 6, 2013 3:09 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
If you have a swimming pool on your property, don't your homeowner's insurance rates go up?

If you're a 16 year-old driver with a Corvette, don't you likely pay higher insurance rates than if you're a 45 year-old mom with a minivan?



Since your homeowners insurance keeps a child from drowning if you're not paying attention.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, May 6, 2013 3:30 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
If you have a swimming pool on your property, don't your homeowner's insurance rates go up?

If you're a 16 year-old driver with a Corvette, don't you likely pay higher insurance rates than if you're a 45 year-old mom with a minivan?



Since your homeowners insurance keeps a child from drowning if you're not paying attention.




Now where did I say that?

Obviously you don't believe rape or child pornography should be illegal, since laws against them and punitive punishments for such things have never kept them from happening.

That really is the sum total of your idiotic argument.

Odd that you won't apply your "Oh, well - shit happens; whaddaya gonna do?" logic to things like Benghazi or Fast-n-Furious.

One *MIGHT* begin to think you have a hard-right fascist agenda you're promoting. (They'd be right, of course.)




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, May 7, 2013 2:14 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Here are some things are five year old is not legally allowed to do.

Drive a car
Vote in an election
Run for office
Have sex
Be employed
Be unattended

So why would it be okay for a 5 year old to own a deadly weapon?

Except on PlanetNRA of course.

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Tuesday, May 7, 2013 2:46 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
If you have a swimming pool on your property, don't your homeowner's insurance rates go up?

If you're a 16 year-old driver with a Corvette, don't you likely pay higher insurance rates than if you're a 45 year-old mom with a minivan?



Since your homeowners insurance keeps a child from drowning if you're not paying attention.




Now where did I say that?



If it doesn't prevent accidental injury or death, why bring it up in a discussion of accidental injury or death, then?

Quote:

Odd that you won't apply your "Oh, well - shit happens; whaddaya gonna do?" logic to things like Benghazi or Fast-n-Furious.


Really odd, since I didn't. In this case, I place the responsibility on the parents, who violated pretty much every common-sense gun safety law, as you well know.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Tuesday, May 7, 2013 3:03 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Here are some things are five year old is not legally allowed to do.

Drive a car
Vote in an election
Run for office
Have sex
Be employed
Be unattended

So why would it be okay for a 5 year old to own a deadly weapon?

Except on PlanetNRA of course.



As noted in the pictures above, kids as young as five do not only drive, but race, cars. They do it with proper safety precautions and with adult supervision.

Kids of five don't know from sex. Unfortunately, if adults responsible for them are careless or greedy, other adults can take advantage of them.

I know kindergartens where children vote for, and are elected to, various offices. Again with adult supervision.

I helped around the house when I was five, and received a dime a week. With - guess what - adult supervision.

Being unattended is the result of an adult's action or inaction, not something a child can do by him or her self.

I am certainly not - and I'm sure the NRA is not - suggesting that five year old kids be turned loose with firearms with no safety precautions or adult supervision. When that happens, bad things may occur, as is obvious from the story above. The parents of these children were neglegent in a major way, and they and their son will suffer for it for quite a while.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Tuesday, May 7, 2013 3:52 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
If you have a swimming pool on your property, don't your homeowner's insurance rates go up?

If you're a 16 year-old driver with a Corvette, don't you likely pay higher insurance rates than if you're a 45 year-old mom with a minivan?



Since your homeowners insurance keeps a child from drowning if you're not paying attention.




Now where did I say that?



If it doesn't prevent accidental injury or death, why bring it up in a discussion of accidental injury or death, then?



Sometimes I forget just how feeble-minded you've become. Then you jump right in to remind me. Okay, I'll explain it to you like you're a three year-old (someone who should definitely not own guns):

Insurance rates are based on risk factors. If you have a swimming pool on your property, you likely pay higher insurance, especially if you have young children living there.
Likewise, if you let your 5 year-old use your Corvette to go street-racing, you're probably going to pay higher auto insurance premiums.

These "fines" don't prevent you from doing stupid things, but they're designed to make you think twice about doing them and weigh the financial impact of such decisions.


Quote:


Quote:

Odd that you won't apply your "Oh, well - shit happens; whaddaya gonna do?" logic to things like Benghazi or Fast-n-Furious.


Really odd, since I didn't.





Derp. That's why I pointed out that you didn't. Thank you for proving me right.

Quote:

In this case, I place the responsibility on the parents, who violated pretty much every common-sense gun safety law, as you well know.



"In this case..." What about Fast-n-Furious? If gun deaths happened with firearms, then isn't it the responsibility of the shooter? Why would you want to hold the president and attorney general responsible for something, when if it were a child you'd hold them entirely blameless and claim it was all just an accident brought about by bad parenting?

Maybe you don't think the drug cartel members had bad parents?





"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, May 7, 2013 5:08 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
If you have a swimming pool on your property, don't your homeowner's insurance rates go up?

If you're a 16 year-old driver with a Corvette, don't you likely pay higher insurance rates than if you're a 45 year-old mom with a minivan?



Since your homeowners insurance keeps a child from drowning if you're not paying attention.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."



What a disgustingly chickenshit dodge.

You are, as always, a coward.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, May 7, 2013 5:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


...and definitely not the lawyer he claims to be. He tries to think like one to sound like one, but he fails miserably every single time.



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Tuesday, May 7, 2013 11:46 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:

As noted in the pictures above, kids as young as five do not only drive, but race, cars. They do it with proper safety precautions and with adult supervision.

Kids of five don't know from sex. Unfortunately, if adults responsible for them are careless or greedy, other adults can take advantage of them.

I know kindergartens where children vote for, and are elected to, various offices. Again with adult supervision.

I helped around the house when I was five, and received a dime a week. With - guess what - adult supervision.

Being unattended is the result of an adult's action or inaction, not something a child can do by him or her self.

I am certainly not - and I'm sure the NRA is not - suggesting that five year old kids be turned loose with firearms with no safety precautions or adult supervision. When that happens, bad things may occur, as is obvious from the story above. The parents of these children were neglegent in a major way, and they and their son will suffer for it for quite a while.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."



Well kids of five DONT drive cars here, with or without adult supervision. Maybe we just take better care of our kids.

Kids don't have sex, nor are they encouraged to have sex under supervision. Nor are they exposed to sexual activity. Adults who do so are breaking the law, plain and simple and this is considered child abuse.

As for your other excuses, meh. I've had this argument with others before on this board. Children are not tiny adults, their brains function differently, they have not yet developed a whole range of cognitive functioning around risk and consequences.

As most societies tend to understand this, they don't expect children to be treated like mini adults, but understand that some things they should not be exposed to until they are older. That is why the law requires different things from adults than children.

It would seem to me to be sensible to prevent children under 18 from owning a weapon with the capacity to kill or maim another.

If you want to provide training for a child in firearm use, how about training in something that doesn't have that capacity.

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Tuesday, May 7, 2013 3:20 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by DOMOKUN1:

Does anybody REALLY think that the NRA or the typical NRA member relishes in the death of a child? NRA is damned if it does or doesn't, eh?




Do they "relish in the death of a child?" No. They don't care about the deaths of children at all, as they've shown time and time again.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, May 7, 2013 4:56 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by DOMOKUN1:
You mean, like the pro-abortion left?




A fetus isn't a child. Neither is a fertilized egg. Sorry you failed basic biology and now feel the need to lash out.


On the bright side, maybe you and some of your gunsick deathfreak buddies can start selling aborted fetuses as targets, since you really seem to get off on shooting things that will bleed or splatter.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, May 8, 2013 4:19 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Insurance rates are based on risk factors. If you have a swimming pool on your property, you likely pay higher insurance, especially if you have young children living there.
Likewise, if you let your 5 year-old use your Corvette to go street-racing, you're probably going to pay higher auto insurance premiums.

These "fines" don't prevent you from doing stupid things, but they're designed to make you think twice about doing them and weigh the financial impact of such decisions.



So? There are also laws relating to child neglect, reckless endangerment, etc. You'll note that neither these laws, the possibility of higher insurance premiums, or even the possibility of the death of a child keep people who are negligent in their responsibility from having their kids drown in pools of off boats, drive their corvettes into trees, or shoot themselves or others.

What's interesting to me is that, while failure of responsibility by the parent or supervising adult is the cause of any of these types of deaths, no one calls for a swimming pool ban, or a boat ban, or a car ban.




"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Wednesday, May 8, 2013 4:38 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Well kids of five DONT drive cars here, with or without adult supervision. Maybe we just take better care of our kids.



Umm.

http://www.jqmqld.com.au/


Quote:

As for your other excuses, meh. I've had this argument with others before on this board. Children are not tiny adults, their brains function differently, they have not yet developed a whole range of cognitive functioning around risk and consequences.

As most societies tend to understand this, they don't expect children to be treated like mini adults, but understand that some things they should not be exposed to until they are older. That is why the law requires different things from adults than children.



Which is what I was saying when I iterated again and again, "...with proper safety precautions and with adult supervision". Children cannot be expected to have the same sense of responsibility that adults should have. They have to be supervised and safety precautions have to be taken, whether they're driving little race cars, swimming, playing on boats, doing chores, or firing a rifle.

Quote:

It would seem to me to be sensible to prevent children under 18 from owning a weapon with the capacity to kill or maim another.


So you'd keep them out of the pool, or off boats, or off bicycles as well, since children die in accidents involving all of these things, and often in greater numbers than from firearms.




"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Wednesday, May 8, 2013 4:49 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
What about Fast-n-Furious? If gun deaths happened with firearms, then isn't it the responsibility of the shooter?



Oh. So are you proposing that the five year old, instead of his negligent parents, is responsible for killing his sister, since he was the shooter?

Quote:

Why would you want to hold the president and attorney general responsible for something, when if it were a child you'd hold them entirely blameless and claim it was all just an accident brought about by bad parenting?


Could be because the President and Attorney General are supposed to be adults, not children, who are supposed to be responsible and obey the law. In the case of "Fast-n-Furious" it appears that they abdicated their responsibility to assure that firearms they were responsible for were used in a safe manner. maybe Obama and Holder were the "bad parents" in the F-n-F debacle.



"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Wednesday, May 8, 2013 4:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


The ADULTS responsible for Fast and Furious WERE dealt with. As with all your other bullshit, your corollary doesn't hold.

Domo's remark puts him squarely in the Rap category. Nobody relishes abortion; millions relish guns. Nobody "plays" at abortion, nobody kills fetuses for sport. The NRA doesn't give a damn about who lives or dies, they've become employees of the gun industry and only care about profit. The idea of stashing guns in children's bedrooms shows clearly they just want to sell more guns, period.


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Wednesday, May 8, 2013 5:07 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by DOMOKUN1:
You mean, like the pro-abortion left?



Wow, you might not be a sock puppet ("might" being the operative word) but you sure do like the same right wing talking points our regulars use.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, May 8, 2013 8:56 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Well kids of five DONT drive cars here, with or without adult supervision. Maybe we just take better care of our kids.



Umm.

http://www.jqmqld.com.au/



One word for you. Queensland.

I note that they run on 5.5 horsepower. Less than a ride on lawnmowers. My car, which is small, runs on about 100 horsepower and many larger ones are around 300. It's hardly comparable. In addition, the safety features include:
"full roll cages, multi-point seat harnesses, full-face helmets, and complete fireproof race suits. "

Basically, you cannot compare owning a 22 caliber 'children's gun' which basically has the same hazards as adult gun, with a tiny engined machine and a roadworthy car. Fail.

It's like comparing a nerf gun with a rifle.




Quote:



Which is what I was saying when I iterated again and again, "...with proper safety precautions and with adult supervision". Children cannot be expected to have the same sense of responsibility that adults should have. They have to be supervised and safety precautions have to be taken, whether they're driving little race cars, swimming, playing on boats, doing chores, or firing a rifle.

So you'd keep them out of the pool, or off boats, or off bicycles as well, since children die in accidents involving all of these things, and often in greater numbers than from firearms.



No, I'd prevent them from having access to weapons designed to maim and kill.

Not sure why you can't see that being in a car or pool accident and a child killing another with a weapon, especially a weapon they have been given as a gift are not comparable. You can trot out your tired old NRA propaganda, but it still does not make them comparable.

Weapons do not equal cars or bikes or pools. As you well know...


I am pretty sure in the States as well as here, there are lots of laws around the use of pools, bikes, cars. You have to have a licence to drive a car, a permit for a pool, we have pool fence regulations, bike helmet regulations, seat belt laws, drink driving laws.

I haven't seen one poster here calling for a blanket ban on weapons. Not one poster. And yet any attempt at introducing laws to provide some boundaries around weapon ownership, including some basic background checks is met with outrage. You yourself have even called for some fairly draconian treatment of people with mental health issues, happy to have registers galore for them, but not willing to concede that there should be some restrictions around weapons.

And as for the other insane argument that any legislation begins a slippery slope to banning, then why haven't cars been banned, seeing as we have all these pesky restrictions on what you can and cannot do with them, and who can drive them etc. Surely 'the slippery slope' would have been well slid down by now?

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Thursday, May 9, 2013 2:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well DONE, Magons! Most excellent; yes, we have the same regulations when it comes to dangerous things as you mentioned, and more; and every time they find another danger, they work to come up with more safety measures. I HATED it when we had to start wearing helmets to ride motorcycles, and still refuse to wear a bike helmet. Lots of rules and regulations around all those things.

And yeah, that slippery slope analogy is a good one. Hell, we don't even have a Constitutional Amendment protecting our right to cars, and we HAVE a national database of registrations, so we know who owns them; why haven't the murderous things been confiscated yet, I wonder?




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Thursday, May 9, 2013 4:45 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
One word for you. Queensland.

I note that they run on 5.5 horsepower. Less than a ride on lawnmowers. My car, which is small, runs on about 100 horsepower and many larger ones are around 300. It's hardly comparable. In addition, the safety features include:
"full roll cages, multi-point seat harnesses, full-face helmets, and complete fireproof race suits. "

Basically, you cannot compare owning a 22 caliber 'children's gun' which basically has the same hazards as adult gun, with a tiny engined machine and a roadworthy car. Fail.



Nope. Safety precautions is safety precautions, be it protection and safety rules in a car race or at a shooting range. Eye and hearing protection, control of ammunition, enforced rules for keeping firearms pointed down-range and keeping fingers off triggers until ready to shoot are exactly analogous to the precautions taken for these kids' races.

Quote:

No, I'd prevent them from having access to weapons designed to maim and kill.

Not sure why you can't see that being in a car or pool accident and a child killing another with a weapon, especially a weapon they have been given as a gift are not comparable. Weapons do not equal cars or bikes or pools. As you well know...



Not sure why you can't see that a hazard is a hazard, be it gun, pool, race car, bike, kitchen knife, or street crossing. If you responsibly supervise your child, they can use any one of these safely. If you don't, they can be injured or killed.

Probably has to do with your conception of firearms as "...weapons designed to maim and kill". I know mine are generally used to make holes in paper far away. That's what most people use them for. Some also hunt.


Quote:

I am pretty sure in the States as well as here, there are lots of laws around the use of pools, bikes, cars. You have to have a licence to drive a car, a permit for a pool, we have pool fence regulations, bike helmet regulations, seat belt laws, drink driving laws.


Also lots of laws around the use of firearms, reckless endangerment, etc. Parents of children who injure or kill themselves or others with firearms, or other things, are regularly charged, as here: http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/state/parents-charged-in-death-of-9-y
ear-old-ohio-boy-fatally-shot


Quote:

And yet any attempt at introducing laws to provide some boundaries around weapon ownership, including some basic background checks is met with outrage.

I got no outrage around background checks. I thought the recent legislation sponsored by Sens, Manchin and Toomey was reasonable. I don't think expanded background checks will really accomplish much, but if it makes you feel better...


Quote:

You yourself have even called for some fairly draconian treatment of people with mental health issues, happy to have registers galore for them, but not willing to concede that there should be some restrictions around weapons.


Sure there should be restrictions around weapons. Felons should not have them. People adjudged dangerously mentally unstable should not have them. Folks convicted of domestic assault should not have them. People shouldn't be able to sell weapons to these folks or make straw purchases for them. Folks under 18 shouldn't be able to buy them or use them without supervision. Private property owners should be able to bar folks with weapons from their property, if they so choose. All pretty much in place now.

Quote:

And as for the other insane argument that any legislation begins a slippery slope to banning, then why haven't cars been banned, seeing as we have all these pesky restrictions on what you can and cannot do with them, and who can drive them etc. Surely 'the slippery slope' would have been well slid down by now?



Can't think that I've ever put forward the "slippery slope" argument. However, the folks who are afraid of gun banning always tend to say, "Look at what they did in Australia".


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Thursday, May 9, 2013 4:49 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
The ADULTS responsible for Fast and Furious WERE dealt with. As with all your other bullshit, your corollary doesn't hold.



It was Mike brought up the Pres. and AG in relation toresponsibility concerning F&F. Why don't you have a problem with that?

Quote:

The NRA doesn't give a damn about who lives or dies, they've become employees of the gun industry and only care about profit. The idea of stashing guns in children's bedrooms shows clearly they just want to sell more guns, period.



And speaking of bullshit.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Thursday, May 9, 2013 4:56 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Insurance rates are based on risk factors. If you have a swimming pool on your property, you likely pay higher insurance, especially if you have young children living there.
Likewise, if you let your 5 year-old use your Corvette to go street-racing, you're probably going to pay higher auto insurance premiums.

These "fines" don't prevent you from doing stupid things, but they're designed to make you think twice about doing them and weigh the financial impact of such decisions.



So? There are also laws relating to child neglect, reckless endangerment, etc. You'll note that neither these laws, the possibility of higher insurance premiums, or even the possibility of the death of a child keep people who are negligent in their responsibility from having their kids drown in pools of off boats, drive their corvettes into trees, or shoot themselves or others.

What's interesting to me is that, while failure of responsibility by the parent or supervising adult is the cause of any of these types of deaths, no one calls for a swimming pool ban, or a boat ban, or a car ban.





Tell me, O Great Geezer Wan-Kenobi...

Are there any laws that make it illegal for an Air Force major to go on base and start shooting people?



And if so... WHY? When clearly such laws are useless, do zero good... why have them?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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