REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

What We Believe

POSTED BY: MAGONSDAUGHTER
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 11:22
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2534
PAGE 1 of 1

Friday, May 17, 2013 5:07 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I was reading through the threads and I came across a description of q belief system by NOBC, which I thought was terrific. I would never have worked out his? beliefs by the few posts of I have read.

I remember when I first appeared on this board a few years ago, someone asked me to do it, it was kind of interesting thing to do.

Maybe to kick start the conversation again, we need to remind each other what we believe and why.

Here is me:

I am an Australian who is bored to death with Australian politics. It's mean and petty and seems to be all about 'what's in it for me' all most people care about these days. ideology seems dead. No one cares. They vote with their hip pocket. It's depressing. NO vision. No big picture.

I don't know where I fit on the political spectrum, even though I have never voted Liberal (more right winged that the other party -Labor) in my life. I've voted Green in the Upper House once or twice, but mainly to give Labor a shake up and stop them moving into more conservative policies. I assume I would be considered a leftie in the States, although in some ways I am socially conservative.

I suppose the above is why I come here and discuss RW events. For some big picture views. I have not a lot of interest in US domestic policy, unless it has an impact globally, ie GFC, or is similar to issues we face here. Gun laws would be an exception, as they are pretty much a non issue here. Both major parties are in consensus and the electorate by and large doesn't care.

I'm less interested in politics and more in society. I like thinking about what makes the difference between a good, well functioning society and a badly functioning one. I am interested in people's belief systems (hence this thread. I am also interested in what makes well functioning people - that's why I write a lot about parenting and families, and I suppose drives me to be somewhat conservative socially.

I am religiously ambiguous. I don't believe in a divine creator that watches over us and imposes laws, but I don't discount the possibility that there may be forces at play in this universe beyong the capacity of my puny intellect to understand.

I am interested in the tension between law and freedom and feel there is a necessity for both, but am rarely clear on where that line should fall.

I believe that America screws up all over the place with its foreign policy, but in some fundamental way, its existence as a world power is necessary for some stability. I think we may be seeing the beginnings of the end of that era, and that makes me anxious about what will come next.

I'm hopelessly naive. I believe that fundamentally most people try to do good, including most leaders who start out wanting positive change and intending to implement it, and just get caught up playing a survival game in a difficult system and lose sight of the endgame.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 17, 2013 5:08 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


And this was NOBC's beliefs (Hope you don't mind me cross threading)
Quote:


Politically, I'm an early 60's liberal. I'm an old guy, old enough to STILL have some of that liberal idealism. I believe in stuff like equal rights, and that government CAN help in certain situations. I believe in progressive taxation, and I think that the rich are under-taxed. I don't buy Stockmanism, or Bush style voodoo economics, I'm a Keynesian at heart.

I also harbor not-a-few really individualistic opinions that might be called conservative, or at least right-wing. I believe in limited, responsible gun rights. I believe in the death penalty, applied on a case by case basis. I believe, to a degree, in American military intervention. We shoulda gone after Iraq in 1992-- Bush 41 was right about that, but didn't finish the job. We shoulda gone after whoever was behind 9/11. That was ( E-T-A I'll correct that myself. May not have been them did it, but they were sheltering OBL at thetime. See, I care about facts and accuracy. Correct myself when I've made a factual error or wrote something that wasn't exactly what I meant.) certainly Afghanistan, at least the Taliban, but not Iraq. I think we shoulda gone after Saudi Arabia, too. Where did Osama Ben Laden come from? Where did , wasn't it 17 of his 19, guys come from?

But we need to balance military intervention with cost/benefit analysis. Is it worth it to get American soldiers wounded or killed in Syria? NO- all we'll possibly gain for our costs there is a warm feeling of moral correctness, in our own judgement. Won't gain us a lick in the permanent friendship, allies or real co-operation department. Sure won't gain us damn -all economically, and sure won't nobody help us carry the economic burden of combat operation there.

I could go on about my politics, but this post is gettin' really long already..it's one of my rules-- I won't read a post over 1 screen long.

But this- I voted for Clinton twice. I voted for Gore and Kerry. I voted for Obama twice. I'm disappointed in him- I think he's been WAY TOO middle of the road, not radical enough, hasn't pushed HARD ENOUGH for what I believe in. Don't really want to ARGUE HERE about what I BELIEVE politically- I'm writing here about what I beleive, ( OOPS! , believe. See, I'm a grammar,spelling and punctuation Nazi too. Re-read my own posts immediately, usually,: go back and make corrections quickly. Admit when I'm wrong on facts or didn't actually know about something.) what I say about that is TRUE, period. If that makes me some kind of fool or jerk, OK, but it's still what I believe.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 17, 2013 6:56 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Having a nice conversation with myself here ;)


Re Islam - I do believe that there is a threat from radical elements of the Islamic faith, and that the access to online information re 'terrorist sites' in the internet has contributed to the radicalisation of young, disaffected males living in western society and contributes to violent behaviour eg Boston.

I do not believe that Islam as a religion is more war like or backwards than Christianity. Both have texts which call for both war and peace, the subjegation of women, that there is only one God and those who do not follow the religion will be doomed to hell/shunning. As well as a lot of softer, nicer stuff.

Islam, like Christianity, has sects with differing beliefs and levels of severity. It's the case that currently Islamic extemists are acting out those beliefs across the world.

RE Fundamentalists of any Religion. I dont have anything pleasant to say about them, nor with extremists in general.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, May 18, 2013 12:46 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


A good thread idea. I'll come back to this.

It's not personal. It's just war.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, May 18, 2013 1:31 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



What I believe in, and why.

Great question. Don't have time to fully expand, but here's a brief thumbnail...

I'm a self described skeptic who doesn't buy into magic, gods or the super natural.

Freedom is a human right.

The rights of the individual should not be denied unless they infringe upon the rights of others.

We are not alone in the universe, though we are in a pretty remote part of the galaxy. Humanity has yet to introduce itself to E.T. intelligence.

The planet is far older than most people can comprehend. It's seen more life and destruction than most folks even care to know.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, May 18, 2013 2:53 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


NO, I don't mind. Actually I thought explaining my beliefs should have not been necessary- I thought I had expounded on all of those subjects in the many threads I've either started or responded to here in RWED. Certainly everybody knows I'm a leftie.

Looking back, I found only one thing I missed: I'm pro-labor, pro-Union.
My grand father was an early member of the Brotherhood of Railway Engineers. My dad was a proud and activist member of the National Association of Letter Carriers. I've only been a member of unions myself a couple of times out of many jobs, with many different companies but I still support the idea.

E-T-A: I'm not religious. My grand parents were a varied European lot,ethnically and religiously. I think maybe the only way they could survive together was to be religiously neutral

Over the last 15 years , my daughter led me to churches as she wanted to learn about the subject. I attended some, and have currently gone back to one, even tho' I don't believe what they're selling. But I keep going back, trying to figure it out, maybe get an insight that will make me, not a believer, but a better person.

And one LAST thing: I believe in Science.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, May 18, 2013 3:29 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


I'll add a couple of suggestions, folks. This is a thread to explain what we, as individuals, believe. Not a thread to attack what somebody else posts here. "You're NOT REALLY DUMB ENOUGH to believe THAT!" has no place here.
I don't even think that "You say you believe that, but your post on the subject of ______, proves that you're lying your a__ off," should be used.

Post what you think is true about yourself, and believe that the other guy is doing the same about himself.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, May 18, 2013 6:18 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Hmmm... my path is littered with the empty husks of what I USED TO believe. When I was little, I believed in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, and the wtich under the bed, and the monster in the closet. I was very, very Catholic; I believed in Jesus who loved me, and my guardian angel who watched over me at night. I believed that sins stained my soul. I believed that if I was nice to people, they would be nice back to me. I wanted everyone to be happy.

When I was 10, many of those beliefs got flushed in a bout of skepticism. Realizing that there is no way to prove ANY belief... in fact, that I couldn't even prove that the world was real ... I decided to live my life AS IF IT WAS real. That was my first a priori assumption, altho I didn't know that's what it was called.

Still, I had continuing beliefs. I had a whole long list of what was fair and right and what wasn't, a whole long list of "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts" which mostly boiled down to the golden rule. I believed, for a while, that people would learn from their moral mistakes. Once I realized that people did not live by "should's and shouldn'ts" I was much better able to predict what would happen next.

Then I believed in the evolution of societies... that even if individuals flubbed the intelligence test, that societies which were fairer would survive and thrive because they spread their wealth out more, because shared prosperity would create more internal support. But then I realized that societies often fail, and that whatever lessons were learned... either good or bad... were lost to the remainder of the world.

I still think we should be more fair, but I realize that few people will fight hard enough for it to happen, and that the pathological few have an inevitable advantage over the socialized many.

I believe that the greatest good one can perform is to uncover the most basic beliefs which color every other single thought that we have. The reason I believe that is because it is those most basic assumptions which are the hardest to find, and which drive us unconsciously into some very dark corners.

At this point, I also believe we are a failed species... we just haven't gotten to the extinction part yet. All I have to do is look at some of the people on the board- people who are so vested in their own beliefs that can't even see reality. Our greatest qualities are also our worst failings. I toy with wondering what we, as a society, would have to do to avoid the worst fate. And what we would have to do is CHANGE OURSELVES, but so far have not come up with any stellar ideas on how to do that.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, May 18, 2013 7:05 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
I'll add a couple of suggestions, folks. This is a thread to explain what we, as individuals, believe. Not a thread to attack what somebody else posts here. "You're NOT REALLY DUMB ENOUGH to believe THAT!" has no place here.
I don't even think that "You say you believe that, but your post on the subject of ______, proves that you're lying your a__ off," should be used.

Post what you think is true about yourself, and believe that the other guy is doing the same about himself.



Well put. Dennis Prager , a conservative talk show host, often says that he seeks clarity over agreement. By that he means folks should be honest in and about what they believe, having the ability to state those beliefs, with out having someone else jump on them because they disagree, or want to paint that person as believing in something they don't.

I think that's a good way to deal. Even if we don't see eye to eye on some matters, at least we can be honest in who we are.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, May 18, 2013 7:36 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sig, much as we often disagree about specific issues, we see eye to eye on virtually all of that. Neat.

As for me, I don't think I need to bother; heaven knows I spout my beliefs constantly as it is here, pretty much anyone who cares knows what I believe. Sig pretty well encompassed the most important ones, in my opinion.

Brenda and Magons, in America both of you would immediately be lumped with the rest of us "damned libruls". ;o)


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, May 18, 2013 4:37 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Freedom is a human right.

The rights of the individual should not be denied unless they infringe upon the rights of others.



You know I doubt many would disagree with these. But the disagreement is in the detail, and you don't provide any. These are truisms, not a set of beliefs that have been truly explained.

What about a bit more, like some examples of the rights of the individual vs the rights of others and where that line gets drawn. How about you define freedom, cause there are lots of ways to be free.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, May 18, 2013 5:00 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Freedom is a human right.

The rights of the individual should not be denied unless they infringe upon the rights of others.



You know I doubt many would disagree with these. But the disagreement is in the detail, and you don't provide any. These are truisms, not a set of beliefs that have been truly explained.

What about a bit more, like some examples of the rights of the individual vs the rights of others and where that line gets drawn. How about you define freedom, cause there are lots of ways to be free.



Odd. I thought beliefs weren't to be challenged or questioned.

Huh.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, May 18, 2013 5:41 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I guess I'll have to start on 'what are beliefs' as I understand them.

Beliefs are to me one of three things: 1) things you act on AS IF they were true despite the fact that you have no evidence for them (and for which you may logically NEVER have evidence), 2) things you cling to as true despite evidence they are false, and 3) things you claim to believe despite a repeated failure to act on them as if they were true.

In the first category, I don't have a good handle on most of my 'a priori' assumptions. I know I act AS IF this world is real and I am real in it. I act AS IF my senses are telling me something meaningful. I act AS IF I have some ability to predict the consequences of actions through a combination of experience, teaching, and thought.

In the second category psychologically, I act AS IF my emotions are meaningful interpretations. Mentally I act AS IF my choices are my own and not dictated by the circuitry of my brain or the delicate neuro-chemical/ hormonal internal dance that exists within me. I do have evidence that neither of these beliefs is true.

I also tend to believe that the lens that I view the world through - the lens concerned with humans - is of primary importance, despite evidence to the contrary. But heaven (the vast forces around us) and earth (our formed home) are not humane - and it's ultimately the implacable heaven and earth that will deliver the consequences of what we do to us, as well as the result of their own processes, and against which human appeal is powerless.

In the third category I don't think I espouse too many things I fail to act on, or act on things I fail to espouse. You won't find me espousing tolerance and understanding for all for example - I think some people are crap and don't mind either saying so or acting on it.

I believe that the well being of all people comes first. To that end the well being of the planet is primary to the well being of people. I believe that any ideology which cannot concretely demonstrate to me how it gets to that end that it claims to hold is a delusion (religion). That puts social Darwinism, capitalism, financialism and other 'isms' in the landfill. I believe that the time to act is when the thing needs to be done, 'at your convenience' is too late and not worth doing at all.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, May 18, 2013 5:42 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Odd. I thought beliefs weren't to be challenged or questioned."

Your failure to explain yourself is in no way a challenge from others.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, May 18, 2013 6:28 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Odd. I thought beliefs weren't to be challenged or questioned."

Your failure to explain yourself is in no way a challenge from others.

Now we must EXPLAIN ourselves? Or does that just apply to me?

LOL.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, May 18, 2013 6:53 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Now we must EXPLAIN ourselves?
Well, rappy, nobody can force you to explain yourself. But if you don't, you'll be like the kid who shouts Hey! Yanno WHAT??? and the grownups turn around and politely ask I don't know, what?. And the kids says Well, I'M not gonna tell YOU!

Really???

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, May 18, 2013 7:58 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Rap, you can do as you please. I just needed more information to understand your beliefs.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, May 18, 2013 9:57 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Wanted to clarify a bit about something I said. At some point, I realized that humans weren't becoming individually better, but I thought that the process of evolution would work at the societal level. What I realized afterwards is evolution itself is a flawed paradigm. The change of creatures throught the millenia isn't leading to some sort of perfection, but simply to change. It is even possible to induce a change which becomes such a set pattern that it ultimately exterminates the species in which it arose. For example the red deer in Scotland, like all harem species, tend to grow very big males with very big antlers. AND, they get bigger and bigger with time... until a hard winter kills off all of the males, but one: the runt. Or, perhaps kills off ALL of the males, in which case the species had just evolved into a cul de sac.

So evolution itself is a stochastic process, and not to be counted on for progress. If progress is going to be made, it's going to be deliberate - something I don't see much of at the moment.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, May 19, 2013 12:48 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Freedom is a human right.

The rights of the individual should not be denied unless they infringe upon the rights of others.



You know I doubt many would disagree with these. But the disagreement is in the detail, and you don't provide any. These are truisms, not a set of beliefs that have been truly explained.

What about a bit more, like some examples of the rights of the individual vs the rights of others and where that line gets drawn. How about you define freedom, cause there are lots of ways to be free.




Hon, I would chastise you, gently. I did ask that we not argue with what a person claims he believes. Now I'm not God, nor the Webmaster here, nor did I start this thread, and I got no real power to enforce what I asked; and you're a free citizen, allowed to do what you choose; but I've already read what he responded to you with, and I don't want to have to say, "I agree with Rap on this one." If he can't, or won't, define his beliefs in more detail, then he can't. Accept what he posted, please, even if you consider it inadequate, and let it pass. Or he'll respond, and you'll respond, and other folks will jump in, heatedly, and this thread will go the way of every other around here.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, May 19, 2013 1:10 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
I guess I'll have to start on 'what are beliefs' as I understand them.

Beliefs are to me one of three things: 1) things you act on AS IF they were true despite the fact that you have no evidence for them (and for which you may logically NEVER have evidence), 2) things you cling to as true despite evidence they are false, and 3) things you claim to believe despite a repeated failure to act on them as if they were true.

In the first category, I don't have a good handle on most of my 'a priori' assumptions. I know I act AS IF this world is real and I am real in it. I act AS IF my senses are telling me something meaningful. I act AS IF I have some ability to predict the consequences of actions through a combination of experience, teaching, and thought.

In the second category psychologically, I act AS IF my emotions are meaningful interpretations. Mentally I act AS IF my choices are my own and not dictated by the circuitry of my brain or the delicate neuro-chemical/ hormonal internal dance that exists within me. I do have evidence that neither of these beliefs is true.

I also tend to believe that the lens that I view the world through - the lens concerned with humans - is of primary importance, despite evidence to the contrary. But heaven (the vast forces around us) and earth (our formed home) are not humane - and it's ultimately the implacable heaven and earth that will deliver the consequences of what we do to us, as well as the result of their own processes, and against which human appeal is powerless.

In the third category I don't think I espouse too many things I fail to act on, or act on things I fail to espouse. You won't find me espousing tolerance and understanding for all for example - I think some people are crap and don't mind either saying so or acting on it.

I believe that the well being of all people comes first. To that end the well being of the planet is primary to the well being of people. I believe that any ideology which cannot concretely demonstrate to me how it gets to that end that it claims to hold is a delusion (religion). That puts social Darwinism, capitalism, financialism and other 'isms' in the landfill. I believe that the time to act is when the thing needs to be done, 'at your convenience' is too late and not worth doing at all.



A long time ago I studied Philosophy 101. Your discussion (and Signy's ) follows that of Rene Descartes (I hope I spelled that right.), the great French philosopher. He was a man trying to study science, in I think the 17th Century, under overwhelming religious authority, and pre-justify himself against charges of blasphemy. { E-T-A: Just looked him up on Wikipedia. born 1596, died 1650. He overlaps Shakespeare, and the Pilgrims founded Plymouth colony in 1620. The title of his major work is Discourse on Method. I remembered the title as just being Discources. } I can't remember the title of his work, but it started from very simple principles. I think, therefore I am. I think of God. God is good. God would not deceive me. Therefore, what I perceive around me is REAL and true. He had 6 major points in his argument, If I remember correctly, which ended up with, what I observe about the science of the natural universe cannot be blasphemy, but God's own truth. So it's OK for me to do science, even if you church guys don't like what I find.

I know I've over-simplified his argument, but that's the gist of it.

And I'm not sure it's appropriate of me to respond here, I suggested that we not argue about what someone else posts. But what you wrote reminds me so strongly of what he wrote so very long ago, and what I studied, so long ago.

Not arguing with you. Complimenting you, perhaps: your thoughts put you in excellent company.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, May 19, 2013 1:46 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:


Hon, I would chastise you, gently. I did ask that we not argue with what a person claims he believes. Now I'm not God, nor the Webmaster here, nor did I start this thread, and I got no real power to enforce what I asked; and you're a free citizen, allowed to do what you choose; but I've already read what he responded to you with, and I don't want to have to say, "I agree with Rap on this one." If he can't, or won't, define his beliefs in more detail, then he can't. Accept what he posted, please, even if you consider it inadequate, and let it pass. Or he'll respond, and you'll respond, and other folks will jump in, heatedly, and this thread will go the way of every other around here.



I was kind of hoping for a conversation here on this thread. So my aim was to find out more, rather than 'jump in', but Rappy is free to choose to respond to my request or not. As is anyone else.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, May 19, 2013 2:13 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:


Hon, I would chastise you, gently. I did ask that we not argue with what a person claims he believes. Now I'm not God, nor the Webmaster here, nor did I start this thread, and I got no real power to enforce what I asked; and you're a free citizen, allowed to do what you choose; but I've already read what he responded to you with, and I don't want to have to say, "I agree with Rap on this one." If he can't, or won't, define his beliefs in more detail, then he can't. Accept what he posted, please, even if you consider it inadequate, and let it pass. Or he'll respond, and you'll respond, and other folks will jump in, heatedly, and this thread will go the way of every other around here.



I was kind of hoping for a conversation here on this thread. So my aim was to find out more, rather than 'jump in', but Rappy is free to choose to respond to my request or not. As is anyone else.





Come to look back at it, YOU DID Start this thread. That gives you some ownership. If it's not going where you want, or proceeding how you want, you DO have some right to say so.

I took the start as you asking for a series of monologs, a bunch of " this is what I believe"'s, less than a conversation, more of a " let's get to know each other"'s That was certainly MY intent in that post on the other thread.
And you can see where Rap's response has gone already.

Not arguin' with you, not fightin', not mad. Just sayin', "We had a nice thing starting here, let's not mess it up."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, May 19, 2013 4:21 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


I'm going to try to do this by hitting all the same points as Magons.

kpo:

I am a Brit, with a keener interest in US politics than British politics. It's the fact that you guys have much better bad guys that makes the story over there much more absorbing. I can't get as excited in my opposition to UK conservatives, who are comparatively quaint, and reasonable. Also I'm a fan of Obama, and it's good to see many good causes being advanced on a lot of fronts: universal healthcare, gay rights, multilateralism, Keynesianism, immigration, infastructure, climate change, Gitmo, Middle East peace, etc. (when the aforementioned bad guys don't act to obstruct it, which they invariably do).

I'm very anti-ideology. Bill Clinton expresses it well for me:

"The problem with any ideology is it gives the answer before you look at the evidence. So you have to mold the evidence to get the answer you've already decided you've got to have."

No one is more rigidly ideological today than the American right - and I would say that's partly what has led me to identify as liberal, in opposition to that. If I'd grown up in the age of communism I think I might well have identified as a moderate conservative. But as communists/socialists were the problem in decades past, increasingly ideological right-wingers are the problem today.

I am an atheist, not an agnostic (one has to have a working theory), but I was raised an evangelical Christian. I don't hate God, I just don't think he's out there. I still have respect and affection for Christianity, and Christians, because it's a very benevolent philosophy, and movement - at least in my country. Intolerance towards homosexuality is perhaps its main problem. Compare that with Islam which has much bigger problems... (which brings me to another part of my philosophical outlook - I'm very anti-equivalence).

I believe the US is the biggest force for good in the world, and has been for some time. I don't rate it as the best force for good - the UK or Sweden or Canada, if they were the size of the US, might be better, less insular, more enlightened global leaders. Then again perhaps not. In any case it's important to have perspective on the role that the US has played in defending and advancing freedom, mainly in Europe in the 20th century.

Quote:

I'm hopelessly naive. I believe that fundamentally most people try to do good, including most leaders who start out wanting positive change and intending to implement it, and just get caught up playing a survival game in a difficult system and lose sight of the endgame.

I pretty much agree with that, and will give elected leaders of even rival parties the benefit of the doubt (to begin with at least) that they're trying to make things better, and to an extent that I can, get behind them.

I haven't said why I'm a liberal yet, so I'll round off with that:

1. I'm a benevolent person. I see suffering and problems in the world and I want to fix it.

2. I'm an optimist: I believe in science and mathematics and technology, and crucially government (to a limited extent), as a way to make things better.

3. Thirdly and perhaps most importantly, I believe in human potential. There's such a vast difference between humans at their best, and humans at their worst, and I don't put this down to the idea that some are born 'bad'. I look at statistics of children born at the beginning of the academic year going on to become more successful (even in things like professional sports), and at statistics of people being born into poverty staying in poverty, and I see a tremendous squandering of human potential. The fact that such random factors still overwhelmingly determine how successful and useful people become, tells me that there's so much more progress to be made in enabling all of us live up to our potential, and to improve and enrich society as a result.

Anyway those are my 'beliefs', as such, and I don't mind defending them if called upon.

It's not personal. It's just war.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, May 19, 2013 7:20 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Not a comment to anyone in particular, but I think this is a WAY COOL thread to read.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, May 19, 2013 1:17 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Wow, some very deep and philosophical responses here. I feel somewhat shallow.

Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:

In the second category psychologically, I act AS IF my emotions are meaningful interpretations. Mentally I act AS IF my choices are my own and not dictated by the circuitry of my brain or the delicate neuro-chemical/ hormonal internal dance that exists within me. I do have evidence that neither of these beliefs is true.



An interesting point. And a disturbing one. The more you consider it, the more evidence there seems to be that we have much less control over our emotions and choices, if any at all.

What then does that mean for people who do 'bad' things, and for the punishments that get delivered to them?




NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, May 19, 2013 2:02 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I wish I could tell you.

I have personally noticed what I would call a change of 'personality' depending on how much pain I'm in for how long, ranging from hopeful and energetic to monomaniacally focused on just getting through the next few minutes doing whatever it is I'm doing, and really only hoping for a chance to lie down.

I've read that some people seem to be able to generate and sustain far higher levels of stress than others. If that's true, that would be me, making my emotions something I HAVE to focus on, whether or not it's helpful in the long run (and generally, I'd say not).

There are even studies in animals relating maternal, paternal, and grand-parental hardship (anything from food shortage to overcrowding to chemical exposure) to epigenetic changes that affect behavior in offspring.

I think that there's a lot of environmental effects from chemicals and contamination leading to soaring rates of autism, behavior problems, and other non-psychological issues (overall health, immune system disregulation etc).

Lastly, I think as humans we have created an environment where offspring that would have been 'pruned' under other circumstances survive to have offspring of their own.

There are a lot of different facets to behavior and 'personality'. What we don't have is an understanding of the basic components and the inputs to these components. If we did we might know how to deal with these variations in a helpful way, to fortify calming and focusing behaviors for example, rather than disruptive and stressful behavior.




NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, May 19, 2013 4:51 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Yes, quite scary to think that the circumstances of your great, great grandparents may impact on your functioning today, along with all the other genetic time bombs regarding health that may be ticking away.

Re the pruning, I wonder if that is one our strengths as a species, as we live in social groups, we can support those who otherwise may not have survived, and those genes, while maybe not the greatest for food collection, may have contributed to our species creativity.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, May 19, 2013 5:02 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


KPO, I wonder whether our shared commonwealth has influenced our thinking. I'm certainly pretty close to your position of much of what you have said.

Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Also I'm a fan of Obama, and it's good to see many good causes being advanced on a lot of fronts: universal healthcare, gay rights, multilateralism, Keynesianism, immigration, infastructure, climate change, Gitmo, Middle East peace, etc. (when the aforementioned bad guys don't act to obstruct it, which they invariably do).



Me too.

Quote:

I'm very anti-ideology. Bill Clinton expresses it well for me:

"The problem with any ideology is it gives the answer before you look at the evidence. So you have to mold the evidence to get the answer you've already decided you've got to have."



I believe we all have ideology, that's pretty much what each of us is outlining here on this thread. The problem is when your ideology is too rigid to bear scrutiny or stand up to evidence, or worse, manipulates evidence to fit the belief rather than the other way around. I think we all need to be careful about this, and that this is a problem across the political spectrum. None of us like our deeply help beliefs to be found to be wanting in evidence. It's painful. But nevertheless, if you are not open to the possibility that you may be wrong on almost every belief you have, you are probably already something of an extemists.

I would say that I find the far Right, particularly the religious Right and gun advocates to be particularly guilty of the above, but it isn't limited to the right of politics.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, May 19, 2013 5:03 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Be good to hear from those not on the left of the political spectrum.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, May 20, 2013 12:02 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Freedom is a human right.

The rights of the individual should not be denied unless they infringe upon the rights of others.



You know I doubt many would disagree with these. But the disagreement is in the detail, and you don't provide any. These are truisms, not a set of beliefs that have been truly explained.

What about a bit more, like some examples of the rights of the individual vs the rights of others and where that line gets drawn. How about you define freedom, cause there are lots of ways to be free.



There may very well be disagreement in the details. What of it ? I did provide 'some' detail, just not a whole lot.

Per freedom, and individual rights, I've posted about this a few times before here, so I didn't think it necessary to re-post, but here goes...

One man's rights and freedoms should only extend so far as they do not infringe upon another's. Basically, I believe we should be able to do as we please, as long as our actions don't endanger or impeded another's rights, through force or fraud. It's a basic libertarian view point, which makes each person accountable for their own actions. If you drink and drive, for example, you're over stepping the agreement to operate a vehicle on the public roads , there by endangering the lives and well being of others. Also, as long as a person is legally engaged in some activity, aren't defrauding anyone or breaking any laws, what business is it to anyone else how successful they are ? Want to smoke weed ? By all means, it's your body, do with it as you please. Want to sell your time and engage in ' companioning' ? That too should be legal, provided all involved are consenting adults.

IMO, these things are 'truisms'.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, May 20, 2013 12:03 PM

BYTEMITE


I tried but I can't.

Instead, please insert some imagined grumbling and doom and gloom here. It better encapsulates the spirit of my beliefs, with about the same degree of usefulness and importance as if I had actually attempted to write about them.

And everyone was better off, the end.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, May 21, 2013 1:50 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


*Sad face*

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, May 21, 2013 4:37 AM

BYTEMITE


I seriously tried for like an hour, then read the three paragraphs I'd managed to edit down to, and immediately had to delete it. So. Much. Whining.

And then I tried again and managed no whining as far as I can tell, but it became a ridiculous wall of text. So I gave up again.

I identify as a chaotic alignment, I'm an atheist and a scientist, I believe the universe has no particular order or reason apart from itself as an end/means, and I also believe that people have a personal responsibility to contribute to things not sucking. This might be the most concise and least obnoxious explanation I can offer, but unfortunately it's stating the obvious.

Purusing these articles may provide further elucidation.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OrderVersusChaos
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharacterAlignment
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheCynic


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, May 21, 2013 4:47 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I tried but I can't.

Instead, please insert some imagined grumbling and doom and gloom here. It better encapsulates the spirit of my beliefs, with about the same degree of usefulness and importance as if I had actually attempted to write about them.

And everyone was better off, the end.



Aw, Crap! I'm gonna argue with that one!

C'mon hon, go google up some cute puppies or kitties. You Tube some happy music. Look up some hottie pics of Nathan or Adam or whatever gets you thru the night. Cheer up. This too shall pass.

Every time I argue economics around here, sometimes with you, I get depressed and despair about the futility of it ALL. Mainly because you're right, and that triumphs over my optimism and idealism.

How 'bout this for a philosophical question? Instead of what do you believe, what makes you happy? What do you do because you want to?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, May 21, 2013 5:10 AM

BYTEMITE



Quote:

Every time I argue economics around here


I guess that's another thing. I don't understand economics. Or other insane abstract human concepts that deal with things that aren't real but we pretend they are for convenience.

Quote:

What makes you happy? What do you do because you want to?


There is not a word or a thing that exists for this.

Quote:

C'mon hon, go google up some cute puppies or kitties. You Tube some happy music. Look up some hottie pics of Nathan or Adam or whatever gets you thru the night. Cheer up. This too shall pass.



Thanks, but just be glad I didn't post all that other bullshit and we'll call it good. I have to try to get the horror out of my head now.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, May 21, 2013 9:27 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

I believe we all have ideology, that's pretty much what each of us is outlining here on this thread.

I'm sure you're right, in the sense of ideology being a collection of ideas. I'm calling the thing that I'm decrying 'ideology' for want of a better word really. It's the difference between believing something is good, or nice, and believing something is ALWAYS THE ANSWER to any given question/situation - without even having to think about it. Common points of unflinching/unthinking rigidity on the right are lower taxes, less spending, less government, less laws/regulation, freer markets, gun rights etc. Perhaps we could say some universal points of unthinking rigidity are belief in democracy, free speech, freedom of the press etc. (we all believe in these things and don't question them, and are unwilling to compromise on them).

But I'm wondering, what points of rigidity does the left (solely) have?

It's not personal. It's just war.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, May 21, 2013 10:13 AM

HKCAVALIER


But KPO,

These "points of rigidity" are mere slogans. Conservatives love more spending and more government and more laws and controled markets when it suits them. And most folk, as it has been shown time and again, will tolerate less democracy, less free speech, less freedom of the press when they don't have a personal stake in what's being lost.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, May 21, 2013 10:15 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Then, by God, we take it back!"



"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, May 21, 2013 10:50 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Odd. I thought beliefs weren't to be challenged or questioned."

Your failure to explain yourself is in no way a challenge from others.

Now we must EXPLAIN ourselves? Or does that just apply to me?

" - Chrisisall



No one said follow-up questions were not allowed. You made a very vague statement which clarified nothing, and is at odds with many of the things you have said over the years here. Asking for clarification shouldn't be so vexing.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, May 21, 2013 11:32 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


And he did follow up. Thanks Rap.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, May 21, 2013 11:41 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:



But I'm wondering, what points of rigidity does the left (solely) have?




Some of the things that the Left gets accused of being rigid about

Condemnation of Israel
Blanket condemnation of US foreign policy
Blaming the US for acts of terrorism against itself (result of foreign policy)
Equivelising Islamic terrorism with Christain fundamentalism
General moral relativism - ie all relationships, religions, cultures are equaly worthy
Mother's choice more important than the life an unborn
Government has a role in shaping society and the economy ie Keynesian economics

Of course the stupidity of partisan politics is that most people don't fit one neat category of left or right, but have a variety of beliefs with degrees. We see this all the time on the board. Some people from the right condemn all abortion, some think its okay under some circumstances. Same with the left. That was why I started this thread. I wanted to see beyond the partisan responses.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, May 21, 2013 4:07 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Odd. I thought beliefs weren't to be challenged or questioned."

Your failure to explain yourself is in no way a challenge from others.

Now we must EXPLAIN ourselves? Or does that just apply to me?

" - Chrisisall



No one said follow-up questions were not allowed. You made a very vague statement which clarified nothing, and is at odds with many of the things you have said over the years here. Asking for clarification shouldn't be so vexing.


Actually, it's not in the least bit at odds w/ my views at all.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 22, 2013 6:11 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Was there any doubt that Wulf would give his worldview via youtube video?

It's not personal. It's just war.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, May 22, 2013 11:22 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


The written word is too challenging

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Well... He was no longer useful to the DNC or the Ukraine Money Laundering Scheme... So justice was served
Thu, March 28, 2024 12:44 - 1 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Thu, March 28, 2024 11:50 - 3410 posts
Elections; 2024
Thu, March 28, 2024 11:18 - 2071 posts
BUILD BACK BETTER!
Thu, March 28, 2024 11:16 - 6 posts
Salon: NBC's Ronna blunder: A failed attempt to appeal to MAGA voters — except they hate her too
Thu, March 28, 2024 07:04 - 1 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Thu, March 28, 2024 05:27 - 6154 posts
Russian losses in Ukraine
Wed, March 27, 2024 23:21 - 987 posts
human actions, global climate change, global human solutions
Wed, March 27, 2024 15:03 - 824 posts
NBC News: Behind the scenes, Biden has grown angry and anxious about re-election effort
Wed, March 27, 2024 14:58 - 2 posts
RFK Jr. Destroys His Candidacy With VP Pick?
Wed, March 27, 2024 11:59 - 16 posts
Russia says 60 dead, 145 injured in concert hall raid; Islamic State group claims responsibility
Wed, March 27, 2024 10:57 - 49 posts
Ha. Haha! HAHA! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!
Tue, March 26, 2024 21:26 - 1 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL