REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

As NY Times Attacks Obama, Records Declassified To Put NSA Program In Proper Perspective

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Thursday, June 13, 2013 18:28
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Tuesday, June 11, 2013 8:07 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

27 Edward Snowden Quotes About U.S. Government Spying That Should Send A Chill Up Your Spine

They are intent on making every conversation and every form of behavior in the world known to them. To do that, the NSA specifically targets the communications of everyone. It ingests them by default. It collects them in its system and it filters them and it analyzes them and it measures them and it stores them for periods of time simply because that's the easiest, most efficient and most valuable way to achieve these ends. So while they may be intending to target someone associated with a foreign government, or someone that they suspect of terrorism, they are collecting YOUR communications to do so. Any analyst at any time can target anyone. Any selector, anywhere... I, sitting at my desk, certainly had the authorities to wiretap anyone, from you or your accountant, to a federal judge, to even the President..."

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/27-edward-snowden-quotes-a
bout-u-s-government-spying-that-should-send-a-chill-up-your-spine



Quote:

Twenty TRILLION Phone Calls: “They’ve Been Collecting Data About ALL Domestic Calls Since October 2001?

Binney explained that the government is taking the position that it can gather and use any informationabout American citizens living on U.S. soil if it comes from:

Any service provider … any third party … any commercial company – like a telecom or internet service provider, libraries, medical companies – holding data about anyone, any U.S. citizen or anyone else.

The National Security Agency’s collection of phone data from all of Verizon’s U.S. customers is just the “tip of the iceberg,” says a former NSA official who estimates the agency has data on as many as 20 trillion phone calls and emails by U.S. citizens.

William Binney, an award-winning mathematician and noted NSAwhistleblower, says the collection dates back to when the super-secret agency began domestic surveillance after the Sept. 11 attacks.

“I believe they’ve been collecting data about all domestic calls since October 2001,” said Mr. Binney, who worked at NSA for more than 30 years. “That’s more than a billion calls a day.”

The data were collected under a highly classified NSA program code-named “Stellar Wind,” which was part of the warrantless domestic wiretapping effort — the Terrorist Surveillance Program.

Binney explained that the government is taking the position that it can gather and use any informationabout American citizens living on U.S. soil if it comes from:

Any service provider … any third party … any commercial company – like a telecom or internet service provider, libraries, medical companies – holding data about anyone, any U.S. citizen or anyone else.

I then asked the NSA veteran if the government’s claim that it is only spying on metadata – and not content – was correct. We have extensively documented that the government is likely recording contentas well. (And the government has previously admitted to “accidentally” collecting more information on Americans than was legal, and then gagged the judges so they couldn’t disclose the nature or extent of the violations.)

Binney said that was not true; the government is gathering everything, including content.

Binney explained – as he has many times before – that the government is storing everything, and creating a searchable database … to be used whenever it wants, for any purpose it wants (even just going after someone it doesn’t like).

Binney said that former FBI counter-terrorism agent Tim Clemente is correct when he says that nodigital data is safe (Clemente says that all digital communications are being recorded).

Binney gave me an idea of how powerful Narus recording systems are. There are probably 18 of them around the country, and they can each record 10 gigabytes of data – the equivalent of a million and a quarter emails with 1,000 characters each – per second.

At an estimated $80 billion this production employs nearly one million people.

Moreover, anyone who uses a machine to send information – of any kind – over the internet, is indirectly employed by these agencies, as well.

The net is expansive – and it’s growing.

Realistically, it’s hard to imagine a scenario where the government simply puts an end to the spying, lays off these one million people, and calls it a day.

http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/twenty-trillion-phone-calls-they
ve-been-collecting-data-about-all-domestic-calls-since-october-2001_06102013



Did NSA already use its massive surveillance apparatus to hijack the Supreme Court decision on Obamacare? Back in July of 2012, news headlines were ablaze with the revelation that sodomite Supreme Court Justice John Roberts suddenly and unexpectedly changed his decision on Obamacare, siding with big government instead of protecting individual liberties.
www.naturalnews.com/040710_NSA_surveillance_Obamacare_Supreme_Court_de
cision.html


Project Main Core: A List Of Millions Of Americans That Will Be Subject To Detention During Martial Law
http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/main-core-a-list-of-millions
-of-americans-that-will-be-subject-to-detention-during-a-national-crisis


Billionaire joo Bloomberg and incestuous terrorist pedophile joo Morris Dees Seligman say Alex Jones Sells Gold on Sirius With Bombing Conspiracy Therapies
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-10/alex-jones-sells-gold-on-siri
us-with-bombing-conspiracies.html



Monsters and Men: Pirate News wins shoutout from Saturday Night Live
http://piratenews-tv.blogspot.com/2013/05/hollywood-award-winner-pirat
e-news.html





In Firefly the Alliance merged the US flag with the flag of Communist China

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Tuesday, June 11, 2013 3:49 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!







In Firefly the Alliance merged the US flag with the flag of Communist China

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Tuesday, June 11, 2013 4:09 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

BTW- on the one hand, you think that Obama is a traitor for continuing and expanding what Bush started.



Cite for me where I called Obama a 'traitor' on THIS matter, if ya can. I called Snowden one, as he clearly signed oaths to privacy, yet said screw it, and told everyone about these programs anyways.

Quote:

On the other hamd you just labelled Snowden a traitor. In your book, one cannot be either for against this program because either way, one is a traitoer. You're confused, son. You don't know what's going on, or what you want.



You can't deny that it's not a confusing situation, can you ? I mean, I was never fully on board w/ the P.A. in the first place. I said, from the very start, it was unnecessary to add yet MORE bureaucracy to our govt, but since they didn't consult me, my say didn't matter.

Most everyone in D.C.( GOP, Dems )from all 3 branches, all think it's this is a non issue, since it's all "LEGAL".

And that's suppose to make us all feel better?

If it was bad under Bush, it's bad under Obama.

Only , in light of what we've seen occur during THIS administration, it's a whole hell of a lot worse.

Oh, and P.S. ...

Quote:

Apparently, you have an extremely detailed list of what "does" and "doesn't matter" which allows you to excuse or blame anyone for anything. Marvelous! And no wonder nobody takes you seriously- there's not a shred of logic in there!


Great display of YOUR logic fail. Bush , going on the intel which was available at the time, thought Saddam had WMD. MANY folks did, including most high level Democrats. What WE were told, the US public, was to expect warehouses of WMD , stockpiled, when that indeed was never the case. Only it was the MEDIA, telling us that, not so much Bush.

Bush, as did many others, got it wrong. Based on bad / incomplete intel.

Obama, on the other hand, said HIMSELF that HE would run a transparent administration. The most transparent ever. It started with HIM, and him alone. And yet, we have - CLEARLY - secrecy, IRS agents taking the 5th, and no one seeming to be able or wiling to tell us anything, from Benghazi, to the IRS scandal, Fast and Furious, ... it fucking does not end!

Obama wasn't fed bad intel, HE was the bad intel. HE lied, directly, to the American people.

Bush didn't.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, June 11, 2013 5:08 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)



"...as he clearly signed oaths to privacy..."


He did? Really? He signed an oath to "privacy"?


While working for the NSA and ensuring that nobody has any privacy?

Again, your logic had utterly failed.

"You can't deny that it's not a confusing situation, can you ? "


How did your brain even learn human speech?


"...but since they didn't consult me, my say didn't matter."


Huh. So who pulled your string on Benghazi, Fast-n-Furious, the "new" NSA scandal, the IRS kerfluffle, or anything else in recent history?

Funny how you had nothing bad to say about NSA spying while Bush was doing it, all because, as you claim, "they didn't consult me," so "my say didn't matter." Why do you think your say matters now? Now you can't seem to shut the fuck up about it.

What changed, other than the skin color and party affiliation of the guy in the big chair?






"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, June 12, 2013 1:20 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Yes, kwickie. He signed papers which he vowed to not reveal secrets. How is this so hard for you to comprehend?

There's no failing logic here, in the least. As one who works w/ the NSA, he'd have to signed such agreements. He violated those agreements, and has now lost his job for it. ( which is the least of his problems )

And I've already told you what's changed from before, and none of it has to do w/ skin color of the President, OR party affiliation. It has to do w/ the ACTIONS , you know the character of those involved, and NOT the color of their skin.

You're a petty, low -information race baiter, who is purposefully ignoring the pertinent details of this, just so you THINK you can score inane 'points' on an internet message board.

The one pressing the FAIL button here, is you.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, June 12, 2013 1:49 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)






"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, June 12, 2013 1:54 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Cheesy photoshopped image is the level at which you can reply ? No surprise at all.

O-care poses far more a threat to America than does Prism. It's not even close.



Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, June 12, 2013 2:33 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Cheesy photoshopped image is the level at which you can reply ? No surprise at all.

O-care poses far more a threat to America than does Prism. It's not even close.



Neither is a threat to America...that is what makes watching you two fight funny.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, June 12, 2013 5:56 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

O-care poses far more a threat to America than does Prism. It's not even close.




They are both equally concerning, IF you believe O-Care will create medical system rationing.

According to your worst case scenarios for O-care, you say it might deny people life saving medical treatments. PRISM meanwhile allows the government a secret police to exist. Said secret police collects data on everyone, can incarcerate anyone indefinitely with no trial for little reason, can assassinate American citizens without trial, and uses forced interrogation techniques focusing on stress, pain, and psychological distress.

In other words, O-care might deny life saving medical treatments if you're right about it, but PRISM denies any respect for human rights or human life. Flip sides of the same coin. If you're upset about one you really should probably be equally upset about the other.

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Wednesday, June 12, 2013 6:04 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Cheesy photoshopped image is the level at which you can reply ? No surprise at all.

O-care poses far more a threat to America than does Prism. It's not even close.



Neither is a threat to America...that is what makes watching you two fight funny.




Interesting perspective. I agree that Prism strengthens the American government, and as such is not a threat to the American government.

Also your comments and breathtaking lack of cynicism continue to amuse me. Carry on.

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Wednesday, June 12, 2013 7:39 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Interesting perspective. I agree that Prism strengthens the American government, and as such is not a threat to the American government.

Also your comments and breathtaking lack of cynicism continue to amuse me. Carry on.



Please tell me how the government having some of this data is more of a threat to anyone than all these companies having it. It seems people expect the government to be the only one that does not get to look at this. We know companies use this data everyday. We know they sell it to whomever can pony up the money. We know someone with a little bit of computer knowledge can get it and use it.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, June 12, 2013 7:50 AM

BYTEMITE


So far, companies don't have the same degree of police forces they send to your house to confiscate servers and with some notable exceptions it's generally the government that tries to arrest you/ jail you/ try you for crimes/ TORTURE you/ detain you indefinitely / predator drone you into a barbequed grease smear crater.

Of course that is likely to CHANGE, and there might also be some degree of cooperation there BETWEEN governments and corporations on these activities, and surely governments aren't the only entities that commit ground forces for a war (conflict diamonds come to mind). I'll even agree that both governments AND corporations are evil beyond anything most of us would/could comprehend or care to. But government entities still tend to do those kinds of things quite a bit more often.

These corporations might try spam bombing your email account with advertisements, and what about hackers and identity theft, how terrible compared to being arrested/ shot at/ legal fees/ imprisonment.

My amusement continues unabated.

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Wednesday, June 12, 2013 8:18 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
So far, companies don't have the same degree of police forces they send to your house to confiscate servers and with some notable exceptions it's generally the government that tries to arrest you/ jail you/ try you for crimes/ TORTURE you/ detain you indefinitely / predator drone you into a barbequed grease smear crater.

Of course that is likely to CHANGE, and there might also be some degree of cooperation there BETWEEN governments and corporations on these activities, and surely governments aren't the only entities that commit ground forces for a war (conflict diamonds come to mind). I'll even agree that both governments AND corporations are evil beyond anything most of us would/could comprehend or care to. But government entities still tend to do those kinds of things quite a bit more often.

These corporations might try spam bombing your email account with advertisements, and what about hackers and identity theft, how terrible compared to being arrested/ shot at/ legal fees/ imprisonment.

My amusement continues unabated.



When was the last time the government tried to arrest you/ jail you/ try you for crimes/ TORTURE you/ detain you indefinitely / predator drone you into a barbequed grease smear crater?

It is about perspective. I would rather someone look into data about people to stop people who want to kill others than just to spam me. Plus the government really is not going to find the vast majority of people interesting and ignore them. Unlike the companies.

Your problems is that you find any organization that has any power over you evil.


I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, June 12, 2013 9:25 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

When was the last time the government tried to arrest you/ jail you/ try you for crimes/ TORTURE you/ detain you indefinitely / predator drone you into a barbequed grease smear crater?


I imagine they're building their case. And if they haven't found me yet, well, they're building a super-spy center here in Salt Lake City that'll be finished in October.

Supposedly they have a list of about 8 million "discontents" who are monitored in detail and who they consider a threat enough to the country that they'd have to be detained in the case that martial law has to be declared. All it takes to get on that list is an expression of political dissent or purchases that are red flagged.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Core

Quote:

Main Core is the code name of a database maintained since the 1980s by the federal government of the United States. Main Core contains personal and financial data of millions of U.S. citizens believed to be threats to national security.[1] The data, which comes from the NSA, FBI, CIA, and other sources,[1] is collected and stored without warrants or court orders.[1] The database's name derives from the fact that it contains "copies of the 'main core' or essence of each item of intelligence information on Americans produced by the FBI and the other agencies of the U.S. intelligence community."[1]

The Main Core database is believed to have originated with the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) in 1982, following Ronald Reagan's Continuity of Operations plan outlined in the National Security Directive (NSD) 69 / National Security Decision Directive (NSDD) 55, entitled "Enduring National Leadership," implemented on September 14, 1982.[1][2]

As of 2008 there were reportedly eight million Americans listed in the database as possible threats, often for trivial reasons, whom the government may choose to track, question, or detain in a time of crisis.[3]

The existence of the database was first reported on in May 2008 by Christopher Ketcham and in July 2008 by Tim Shorrock.[2]



If you so much as buy hydrogen peroxide to bleach your hair, they might be monitoring you.

Quote:

I would rather someone look into data about people to stop people who want to kill others than just to spam me.


You know what groups kill more people than terrorists or school shooters?

Corporations.

You know what groups kill more people than corporations?

Governments after a declaration of war.

Heh.

Although if you're proposing counter-COUNTER-intelligence hacktivism against the US and Corporations, I could sign off on that. :P

Quote:

Your problems is that you find any organization that has any power over you evil.


...because they are? At a large enough sampling size I can pretty much guarantee that a concentration of power correlates with increased abuse of power and an alteration of normal behaviour towards greater amorality, greed, and self-interest, even temporary narcissism or sociopathic tendencies. There's psychological studies that have been done on this phenomena.

Here's an example dealing with celebrities - which is a condition I imagine also applies to basically all politicians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_%28psychology%29#Acquired_situ
ational_narcissism


And then don't even get me started on the "Just Following Orders" syndrome that happens among the non-celebrity and more anonymous members of the population.

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Wednesday, June 12, 2013 10:14 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Interesting perspective. I agree that Prism strengthens the American government, and as such is not a threat to the American government.

Also your comments and breathtaking lack of cynicism continue to amuse me. Carry on.



Please tell me how the government having some of this data is more of a threat to anyone than all these companies having it. It seems people expect the government to be the only one that does not get to look at this. We know companies use this data everyday. We know they sell it to whomever can pony up the money. We know someone with a little bit of computer knowledge can get it and use it.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.




Have you ever seen those commercials for the insurance companies where they have the little "driver's snapshot" device that you plug into your car so it can track your driving habits, and they all but promise it can reduce your insurance rates?

How would you feel about the government mandating such a device be placed in your car? Only you're not allowed to know about it, ask about it, talk about it, tell anyone else about it if you by some chance find out about it - oh, and if at any point the government doesn't like what it sees, the goon squad just gets to kick in your door and take you away. Or zap you with a Hellfire missile while you're driving down the 405.

Sound like fun? That's just ONE difference between a company doing it and the government doing it. If I don't want to participate in that company's "experiment", I just don't do it. I refuse, or I move on to a different company.

What happens if I don't want to play the government's game?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, June 12, 2013 10:18 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:

When was the last time the government tried to arrest you/ jail you/ try you for crimes/ TORTURE you/ detain you indefinitely / predator drone you into a barbequed grease smear crater?

Your problems is that you find any organization that has any power over you evil.





And your problem is that as long as it's not happening to you personally, you can't see that it's happening at all. Or maybe you just can't bring yourself to care, just as long as it's only happening to various brown people. I get it; when they came for the brown people, you didn't speak up, because you're not brown.





"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Thursday, June 13, 2013 2:20 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Have you ever seen those commercials for the insurance companies where they have the little "driver's snapshot" device that you plug into your car so it can track your driving habits, and they all but promise it can reduce your insurance rates?

How would you feel about the government mandating such a device be placed in your car? Only you're not allowed to know about it, ask about it, talk about it, tell anyone else about it if you by some chance find out about it - oh, and if at any point the government doesn't like what it sees, the goon squad just gets to kick in your door and take you away. Or zap you with a Hellfire missile while you're driving down the 405.

Sound like fun? That's just ONE difference between a company doing it and the government doing it. If I don't want to participate in that company's "experiment", I just don't do it. I refuse, or I move on to a different company.

What happens if I don't want to play the government's game?



If youo don't play the companies game you are not playing the governments. That is where the government is getting the data. So what would happen...nothing. However you are participating in some companies game every time you log on to the internet. Unless you have taken some extreme steps to avoid useing these companies.



Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

And your problem is that as long as it's not happening to you personally, you can't see that it's happening at all. Or maybe you just can't bring yourself to care, just as long as it's only happening to various brown people. I get it; when they came for the brown people, you didn't speak up, because you're not brown.



It's not happening to the vaste majority of people, no matter there color. The whole point of gathering data is so you don't indesciminatly kill.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, June 13, 2013 2:34 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I imagine they're building their case. And if they haven't found me yet, well, they're building a super-spy center here in Salt Lake City that'll be finished in October.

Supposedly they have a list of about 8 million "discontents" who are monitored in detail and who they consider a threat enough to the country that they'd have to be detained in the case that martial law has to be declared. All it takes to get on that list is an expression of political dissent or purchases that are red flagged.As of 2008 there were reportedly eight million Americans listed in the database as possible threats, often for trivial reasons, whom the government may choose to track, question, or detain in a time of crisis.[3]

The existence of the database was first reported on in May 2008 by Christopher Ketcham and in July 2008 by Tim Shorrock.[2]



If you so much as buy hydrogen peroxide to bleach your hair, they might be monitoring you.



So are they tracked in detail, or maybe tracked? I'm sure the government has a lot of lists, we are on a list somewhere. List, even such as this are not as nofarious as they seem.

Plus if it was as simple as buying hydrogen peroxide to get on the list there would be far more than 8 million.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
You know what groups kill more people than terrorists or school shooters?

Corporations.

You know what groups kill more people than corporations?

Governments after a declaration of war.

Heh.

Although if you're proposing counter-COUNTER-intelligence hacktivism against the US and Corporations, I could sign off on that. :P



I have no problem with some forms of hacktivism. In this case I don't even thing the leaker of the programs we are talking about should be charged. This is a debate which is needed. Of course it should have happened when the laws creating these programs was put into place, but not enough people pay attention.

Now I would like a citation on how many people corporations kill. I'm not talking about people killed buy using products we all know are dangerous, that is on the people whom bought them.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
...because they are? At a large enough sampling size I can pretty much guarantee that a concentration of power correlates with increased abuse of power and an alteration of normal behaviour towards greater amorality, greed, and self-interest, even temporary narcissism or sociopathic tendencies. There's psychological studies that have been done on this phenomena.

Here's an example dealing with celebrities - which is a condition I imagine also applies to basically all politicians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_%28psychology%29#Acquired_situ
ational_narcissism


And then don't even get me started on the "Just Following Orders" syndrome that happens among the non-celebrity and more anonymous members of the population.



I'm sure there is an increase in amorality. Thing is an increase does not mean everyone is evil.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, June 13, 2013 3:50 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

and none of it has to do w/ skin color of the President, OR party affiliation. It has to do w/ the ACTIONS , you know the character of those involved
Except that your standards are so darn inconsistent, yanno? Two Presidents, doing exactly the same thing, under the same legal authotization. Now, I know you're going to tell me that it isn't the same because such and such. But son, it is. Obama was doing in 2009 exactly what Bush was doing in 2008. Too bad you deliberately ignored the problem back then - just admitting its existance would have seriously boosted your "Rappy's got a foot on the ground and isn't just a rightwing tool" cred.

Quote:

Cite for me where I called Obama a 'traitor' on THIS matter, if ya can
Okay, so he's NOT a traitor on this?

Quote:

Only it was the MEDIA, telling us that, not so much Bush. [qbout WMD
I know this is a bit off topic, but... really??? In this day and age, there is something called "video". Yanno, actual recordings of people saying stuff. Might want to keep that in mind... maybe go watch a few before you make such easily disprovable statements.

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Thursday, June 13, 2013 3:56 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:


It's not happening to the vaste majority of people, no matter there color. The whole point of gathering data is so you don't indesciminatly kill.



So... What you're saying is... Without this data, the government's response to security threats on its own soil and from its own citizens would be INDISCRIMINATE KILLING. Instead of the traditional practice of arrest and trial under English Law that has existed since before America was AMERICAN. And either way, killing or monitoring, it wouldn't matter because it's not a vast majority of Americans, only 8 million.

You're really making a case in favour here.

Quote:


So are they tracked in detail, or maybe tracked?



Tracked in detail, no maybes about it. Their purchases, the contents of their emails, posts on twitter or facebook. Otherwise the NSA and the other agencies and contractors would be collecting pretty vague and useless information.

Hydrogen peroxide can be used to make bombs, so if you buy enough of it, yes, it flips some flags.

Also 8 million is not a small number.

Quote:

I'm sure there is an increase in amorality. Thing is an increase does not mean everyone is evil.


No, it just means that the individuals who are good are swallowed up by the flood of assholes and greed and people who just don't care, because to get anything done, you have to play ball with the people with the amoral self-interests. So all efforts to improve things or stop the degenerative spiral within the system itself are just pissing in the ocean, undermined right from the beginning.

As such, individuals can be good, but organizations with any power or ideology or ambition are pretty much always evil. Even charities. (Side note: most Middle Eastern countries consider Al Qaeda a humanitarian aid group)

That's why I believe in dismantling/hobbling such structures.

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Thursday, June 13, 2013 4:05 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So, this program prevented "dozens" of "terrorist" attcks.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Everything they're about to say on this program is a lie. Do they think that actual foreign terrorists are so stupid that they call their buds on an open line, and that we're so stupid we believe that??? Do they think that I really believe that monitoring tens of millions of average Americans - who wouldn't know a terrorist even by six degrees of Kevin Bacon-is really going to (somehow) stop terrorist attacks???

Only by stretching the definition of "terrorism" to include Occupy protests, hacking, DDOSs, copyright violations, Tea Party organizing, failure to pay taxes, and zombie PCs spewing spam, is this even remotely possible. And that, for sure, is what is being targeted - political activism and internet activity.

This is a yet another watershed moment for Congress: will our Congresspeople think about the good of the nation and our Constitutionally guaranteed freedoms, and do what's right, irrespective of party affiliation and political career?

This is also another watershed moment for "we the people": will we sacrifice our civil liberties to gain some vague promise of "safety"? Yanno, in the late 1700's Americans had just gone thru a WAR on their very own soil, and yet the politicians were ballsy enough to write up a whole lng list of rights designed to preserve our freedoms. They werem't thinking about safety, although they had every right to. Each time this comes up- and it's come up enough in the past 13 years that only the very young can claim not to know what's going on (means NOT YOU, rappy) - the quote from Franklin is brought up. I will bring it up again

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Let's see whether we deserve our freedom or not.


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Thursday, June 13, 2013 5:34 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Only by stretching the definition of "terrorism" to include Occupy protests, hacking, DDOSs, copyright violations, Tea Party organizing, failure to pay taxes, and zombie PCs spewing spam, is this even remotely possible. And that, for sure, is what is being targeted - political activism and internet activity.


Abso-fucking-lutely. Right on.

It's not even in question, the DOD issued a training manual that identified protests as "low level terrorism."

http://open.salon.com/blog/dennis_loo/2009/06/14/dod_training_manual_p
rotests_are_low-level_terrorism


http://open.salon.com/blog/dennis_loo/2009/06/22/dod_deletes_protest_t
errorism_problems_remain


Quote:

This is what in fact was done to the RNC Welcoming Committee at the 2008 RNC convention in Minneapolis-St. Paul. Authorities carried out pre-emptive raids upon peaceful protesters prior to their even peacefully demonstrating and charged them with “domestic terrorism.” In the course of this, at least one of the arrested US citizen activists was brutalized in a fashion that comes very close to torture.


Welcome to America. You have freedom of speech and assembly, but actually expressing either of them means you will be scrutinized constantly by our security overlords, and you will be dragged from your home/off the street, beaten, and detained like a POW if they deem it necessary.

Alien and Sedition Acts anyone? Japanese Internment? Or how about McCarthy?

And if you want to throw in corporate influence and the contractors, try the Pinkertons, or the fights for employee Unions in the 1920s.

The people who say they're "looking out for our safety and security" are actually the most dangerous people in this country. This isn't the first time they've tried this shit, and they're using all the previous instances as a precedence - only now, they're formalizing it as LEGAL ACTION, instead of the secret police clandestine bullshit they usually pull.

They've ALWAYS done this kinda stuff. And in no way does that EVER make it okay. By legalizing it now, we'd basically be giving out a free pass to everything these wannabe fascists have done in the past and everything they might do in the future. We'd be giving them the immunity that they already THINK they have.

There's some lines that should not be crossed, not if the system is to remain "a government by the people, for the people." To make dissent a crime is by definition the first step towards tyranny. As such, actions promoting tyranny and even the laws that allow this are always unacceptable - criminal, even - and must always be opposed.

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Thursday, June 13, 2013 8:34 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
So... What you're saying is... Without this data, the government's response to security threats on its own soil and from its own citizens would be INDISCRIMINATE KILLING. Instead of the traditional practice of arrest and trial under English Law that has existed since before America was AMERICAN. And either way, killing or monitoring, it wouldn't matter because it's not a vast majority of Americans, only 8 million.

You're really making a case in favour here.



I was speaking about overseas activities. We still do arrest people here and make them stand trial.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Tracked in detail, no maybes about it. Their purchases, the contents of their emails, posts on twitter or facebook. Otherwise the NSA and the other agencies and contractors would be collecting pretty vague and useless information.

Hydrogen peroxide can be used to make bombs, so if you buy enough of it, yes, it flips some flags.

Also 8 million is not a small number.



Around 2.5% of the populationof the US, so it is pretty samll. I would expect a person buying gallons of hydrogen peroxide to raise some flags.

Who you email and call is not vague and useless information. This is the very data the government is getting and using.

Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
No, it just means that the individuals who are good are swallowed up by the flood of assholes and greed and people who just don't care, because to get anything done, you have to play ball with the people with the amoral self-interests. So all efforts to improve things or stop the degenerative spiral within the system itself are just pissing in the ocean, undermined right from the beginning.

As such, individuals can be good, but organizations with any power or ideology or ambition are pretty much always evil. Even charities. (Side note: most Middle Eastern countries consider Al Qaeda a humanitarian aid group)

That's why I believe in dismantling/hobbling such structures.



There are good companies out there. I think your view is so slanted it is bordering on crazy.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, June 13, 2013 8:38 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, this program prevented "dozens" of "terrorist" attcks.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Everything they're about to say on this program is a lie. Do they think that actual foreign terrorists are so stupid that they call their buds on an open line, and that we're so stupid we believe that??? Do they think that I really believe that monitoring tens of millions of average Americans - who wouldn't know a terrorist even by six degrees of Kevin Bacon-is really going to (somehow) stop terrorist attacks???

Only by stretching the definition of "terrorism" to include Occupy protests, hacking, DDOSs, copyright violations, Tea Party organizing, failure to pay taxes, and zombie PCs spewing spam, is this even remotely possible. And that, for sure, is what is being targeted - political activism and internet activity.

This is a yet another watershed moment for Congress: will our Congresspeople think about the good of the nation and our Constitutionally guaranteed freedoms, and do what's right, irrespective of party affiliation and political career?

This is also another watershed moment for "we the people": will we sacrifice our civil liberties to gain some vague promise of "safety"? Yanno, in the late 1700's Americans had just gone thru a WAR on their very own soil, and yet the politicians were ballsy enough to write up a whole lng list of rights designed to preserve our freedoms. They werem't thinking about safety, although they had every right to. Each time this comes up- and it's come up enough in the past 13 years that only the very young can claim not to know what's going on (means NOT YOU, rappy) - the quote from Franklin is brought up. I will bring it up again

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Let's see whether we deserve our freedom or not.




First thing you need to know is that data being used is not a violation of your rights. In fact that data is not yours. It is owned by the companies that have collected it. Which by the way you are freely giving those companies by using there services.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, June 13, 2013 10:14 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I was speaking about overseas activities. We still do arrest people here and make them stand trial.


I see. I believe there are people in Gitmo who were arrested on American soil. You might want to take your case up with them.

Quote:

Who you email and call is not vague and useless information. This is the very data the government is getting and using.


Hah.

Issuing a statement that they're collecting information about who people are calling and emailing and focusing on the ones that go out of the country, not the same thing as what they represent being the full extent of their activities. You're also assuming that they wouldn't straight up lie to us as a "reassurance."

But there are plenty of sources who've been hinting that it's much more than that, if you'd care to look around and listen. Them admitting to this much is what they call a "Limited Hangout." You release just enough information that you can placate the people asking questions, and while they're looking the other way, you continue everything else you've been doing.

They said they're only doing this much, so it must be true! Even though we know that if they're already gathering this simple relatively innocuous sounding stuff, it'd be just as easy to get the other information I mentioned while they're in these corporate systems. We know what the Patriot Act allows, and it's not just caller/sender/receiver logs - only but one small section in Title II of the Act deals with this, and other sections of Title II are far more inclusive of what can be gathered or disclosed. We also know that there were instances that they mined too much information and had to go to some judges and write up incident reports about it. Gosh, maybe they only mined a few extra phone contacts, surely that's all that might warrant a response like that.

Quote:

First thing you need to know is that data being used is not a violation of your rights. In fact that data is not yours. It is owned by the companies that have collected it. Which by the way you are freely giving those companies by using there services.


Hmm. Perhaps you'd like to test this theory of yours that information you provide to a company, that they then provide to the government, does not belong to you. Your credit card information and social security number would be sufficient proof for me.

I think the saying is, "put your money where your mouth is."

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Thursday, June 13, 2013 10:21 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Only by stretching the definition of "terrorism" to include Occupy protests, hacking, DDOSs, copyright violations, Tea Party organizing, failure to pay taxes, and zombie PCs spewing spam, is this even remotely possible. And that, for sure, is what is being targeted - political activism and internet activity.


Of course it is, secret police, secret courts and laws, have always and ever been tasked not against foreign invaders, but against the very people of a country in order to keep regimes in power - while one can pretend this is different till they're blue in the face... it ain't.

And here's this little bit you mighta missed - and remember me telling you this some time ago, and being snarked at for it.

Surprise, Surprise! All Occupiers Phones Were Logged

http://www.alternet.org/activism/all-occupiers-phones-were-logged

When the people and their elected are kept in the dark, fed lies and misinformation, manipulated with distortions into jumping through hoops like a trained circus animal, it makes a mockery of even the pretense of democracy because no one has the proper and accurate information required to make necessary decisions, thereby taking power out of the hands of the people, and putting it into the hands of unelected, unaccountable bastards who will without fail abuse it.

I've said it before, I say it again, the real terrorists aren't overseas, they're right here, in Ft Meade, in Langley, in Quantico...

Bastards should be glad I ain't in charge, cause the first thing I'd do is have the capitol police deputize a bunch of returning war vets, borrow some gear from the local SWAT team and forcibly serve a warrant on the goddamn NSA, up to and including arresting for obstruction anyone attempting to hide or destroy evidence and giving anyone who "resists" the same treatment us mere mundanes get - and throw Clapper and his punks in the freakin slammer, sans bail (there'd be a proper hearing, but given the flight risk and the danger, they WOULD be remanded), and put them on trial, by the book.

-F

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Thursday, June 13, 2013 5:21 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

First thing you need to know is that data being used is not a violation of your rights. In fact that data is not yours. It is owned by the companies that have collected it. Which by the way you are freely giving those companies by using there services.
Wow, big damn Blue Sun fan, aren't ya? I "enter" into this contract as an extremely disparate party, next to a coporate overlord. As far as I'm concerned, one cannot freely enter into a legitimate contract when the powers of the signatories are very disparate. It's like a 40-year-old white male marrying a mentally-retarded 8-year-old female, or worse.

Which, by the way, for those who wonder why I consider rappy a rapist, or worse...

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Thursday, June 13, 2013 5:27 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Cite for me where I called Obama a 'traitor' on THIS matter, if ya can-rappy

Okay, so he's NOT a traitor on this? -signy

OMFG! No answer is forthcoming! Rappy hasn't been told what to think! The rightwing is in a dither!

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Thursday, June 13, 2013 6:28 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"First thing you need to know is that data being used is not a violation of your rights. In fact that data is not yours. It is owned by the companies that have collected it. Which by the way you are freely giving those companies by using there services."

Only if you squint and take a very narrow view of unreasonable search and seizure.

But let's say it's constitutional. Do you WANT it to be constitutional? Or would you prefer a constitutional amendment guaranteeing your privacy from any level of government, from individuals, and from business? I expect you to be thinking that this is idealistic and unattainable, and therefore not worth even considering. But many countries have adopted privacy clauses in their constitutions. Germany - a country that seems to be pretty safe from terrorism - has one of the strongest.

So, given that it's an obviously attainable thing, and given that countries can have privacy protection and remain safe - would you want an amendment that makes invasion of your privacy UNconstitutional?

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